The Official Mustang Thread

[GoCougs]

The original GT500, Boss, etc. (and the reset of the era), are so collectible today only because of the malaise that followed. Why lust after a 2007 GT500 when the regular ole 2019 Mustang GT is a 10x better car in all respects?

[GoCougs]

Lots of drag times out now. Just as with the Hellcats, the 1/4 mile times are falling well short of manufacturer claims. No one is getting 10.7 sec 1/4 mile or whatever. Times are averaging 11.4 sec or thereabouts, which underperforms.

Closer analysis shows the GT500 finishing the 1/4 mile in 4th, whereas both the ZL1 and Hellcat finish in 5th (AT equipped). Also of note is the GT500's 7,500 RPM red line compare to the ZL1's and Hellcat's 6,500 RPM red line. So, with taller gearing and less advantageous power band, GT500 drag racing results are not surprising.

So, not exactly a drag car. At ~4,200 lbs, not exactly a track car. With DCT only, not exactly a muscle/pony car enthusiast's dream. At ~$75k base and ~$100k fully equipped, not anything close to the bargains that are the ZL1 and Hellcat. Oh, my dear GT500, thee are interesting, but thee are lost.

[FoMoJo]

Lots of drag times out now. Just as with the Hellcats, the 1/4 mile times are falling well short of manufacturer claims. No one is getting 10.7 sec 1/4 mile or whatever. Times are averaging 11.4 sec or thereabouts, which underperforms.

Closer analysis shows the GT500 finishing the 1/4 mile in 4th, whereas both the ZL1 and Hellcat finish in 5th (AT equipped). Also of note is the GT500's 7,500 RPM red line compare to the ZL1's and Hellcat's 6,500 RPM red line. So, with taller gearing and less advantageous power band, GT500 drag racing results are not surprising.

So, not exactly a drag car. At ~4,200 lbs, not exactly a track car. With DCT only, not exactly a muscle/pony car enthusiast's dream. At ~$75k base and ~$100k fully equipped, not anything close to the bargains that are the ZL1 and Hellcat. Oh, my dear GT500, thee are interesting, but thee are lost.

Not so, or only for the deadfoots...2020 Shelby GT500 Can Do The Quarter Mile In 10.61 At 133 MPH

For example, Ford claims its supercharged monster completes the quarter-mile run in a mere 10.7 seconds, but give it to someone who knows what he's doing, and that time will drop by nearly a tenth of a second.

At the official media launch Ford organized in Las Vegas for the GT500, REVan Evan did the quarter mile in an already impressive 10.89 seconds at 130 mph (209 kph), but he later had the opportunity to improve his time. In a private test conducted at the Bradenton Motorsports Pack in Florida, he managed to shave off 0.28 seconds compared to his initial run and ended up with a time of 10.61 at 133 mph (214 kph) with a completely stock car.

[GoCougs]

Not so, or only for the deadfoots...2020 Shelby GT500 Can Do The Quarter Mile In 10.61 At 133 MPH

For example, Ford claims its supercharged monster completes the quarter-mile run in a mere 10.7 seconds, but give it to someone who knows what he's doing, and that time will drop by nearly a tenth of a second.

At the official media launch Ford organized in Las Vegas for the GT500, REVan Evan did the quarter mile in an already impressive 10.89 seconds at 130 mph (209 kph), but he later had the opportunity to improve his time. In a private test conducted at the Bradenton Motorsports Pack in Florida, he managed to shave off 0.28 seconds compared to his initial run and ended up with a time of 10.61 at 133 mph (214 kph) with a completely stock car.

Did you get a chance to read the last sentence of the article?

"We also had the chance to put the Shelby GT500 through its paces in a quarter-mile run and our best result (out of three attempts) with the launch control activated was clocked in at 11.5 seconds at 130 mph (209 kph)."

A Ford press event, with a Ford driver (who by contract is mum), in a "private" test, and the result is 10.61 sec. Curious, as with a DCT car, there is virtually zero skill needed, other than pushing the various buttons to engage launch control.

Just to give an idea of scale, 10.6 sec vs. 11.5 sec in the 1/4, is approximately 1/2 a football field, or ~175 feet. So, by logic alone, it is 100% impossible that that Ford "private" test is representative (or, all these press cars are deadbeats).

[MX793]

Did you get a chance to read the last sentence of the article?

"We also had the chance to put the Shelby GT500 through its paces in a quarter-mile run and our best result (out of three attempts) with the launch control activated was clocked in at 11.5 seconds at 130 mph (209 kph)."

A Ford press event, with a Ford driver (who by contract is mum), in a "private" test, and the result is 10.61 sec. Curious, as with a DCT car, there is virtually zero skill needed, other than pushing the various buttons to engage launch control.

Just to give an idea of scale, 10.6 sec vs. 11.5 sec in the 1/4, is approximately 1/2 a football field, or ~175 feet. So, by logic alone, it is 100% impossible that both tests are equivalent (i.e., equivalent cars).

The DSG and launch control will largely eliminate the driver element (everything but reaction time if you're being timed against the Christmas tree), but not the environmental element.  Air temperature, track temperature, tire pressures, tire condition (these guys are testing press cars with tires that may have been severely heat cycled even if tread depth is still OK), etc...

The guys from that e-magazine ran an 11.5 @ 130.  Looking at the photos from some of the slips, the guy who was running 10s ran multiple passes at 10.9xx @ 129.x-130.x mph.  Leads me to believe that the writers were probably testing against the lights and lost half a second to reaction time seeing as their trap speed was the same as a much shorter ET run.

[FoMoJo]

Did you get a chance to read the last sentence of the article?

"We also had the chance to put the Shelby GT500 through its paces in a quarter-mile run and our best result (out of three attempts) with the launch control activated was clocked in at 11.5 seconds at 130 mph (209 kph)."

A Ford press event, with a Ford driver (who by contract is mum), in a "private" test, and the result is 10.61 sec. Curious, as with a DCT car, there is virtually zero skill needed, other than pushing the various buttons to engage launch control.

Just to give an idea of scale, 10.6 sec vs. 11.5 sec in the 1/4, is approximately 1/2 a football field, or ~175 feet. So, by logic alone, it is 100% impossible that that Ford "private" test is representative (or, all these press cars are deadbeats).

As I said, 'deadfoots'.  Ford will always outperform the competition when they want to.

[GoCougs]

The DSG and launch control will largely eliminate the driver element (everything but reaction time if you're being timed against the Christmas tree), but not the environmental element.  Air temperature, track temperature, tire pressures, tire condition (these guys are testing press cars with tires that may have been severely heat cycled even if tread depth is still OK), etc...

The guys from that e-magazine ran an 11.5 @ 130.  Looking at the photos from some of the slips, the guy who was running 10s ran multiple passes at 10.9xx @ 129.x-130.x mph.  Leads me to believe that the writers were probably testing against the lights and lost half a second to reaction time seeing as their trap speed was the same as a much shorter ET run.

Only in the most extreme circumstances - say, 95F in Denver vs. 55F in LA - can environmental conditions net a difference anything close to a second +/- in ET.

Quoting ETs + reaction time is for bracket racing or the like.

The slips at most any track quote the ET in the largest font (which is the time between breaking the start and finish beams; i.e., by definition does not include reaction time).

[Soup DeVille]

Only in the most extreme circumstances - say, 95F in Denver vs. 55F in LA - can environmental conditions net a difference anything close to a second +/- in ET.

Quoting ETs + reaction time is for bracket racing or the like.

The slips at most any track quote the ET in the largest font (which is the time between breaking the start and finish beams; i.e., by definition does not include reaction time).

This is false.

ET runs from the green light, not the beams.

(edit: I was wrong)

[MX793]

Only in the most extreme circumstances - say, 95F in Denver vs. 55F in LA - can environmental conditions net a difference anything close to a second +/- in ET.

Tires (condition, pressure) and track surface condition can't sway runs by half a second or more?

[Soup DeVille]

Tires (condition, pressure) and track surface condition can't sway runs by half a second or more?

Hell, I've had back-to-back runs within half an hour on a car with an automatic transmission and no tuning between vary more than that.

[GoCougs]

When there is one ringer time (10.6), and all the rest are 11.3-11.5 (half a football field or more); no and no. Like any remotely legit publication or entity, they run till they get their best time, and will note aberrations if there are any (extreme temps, launch control not working, whatever).

The GT500 is a low/mid 11 sec car from the factory; at least all these press cars are. There are no viable theories as to discrepancy of the ringer, other than the 10.6 car was a ringer car or ringer test (downhill, cheater slicks, or some other Funny Business).

[FoMoJo]

When there is one ringer time (10.6), and all the rest are 11.3-11.5 (half a football field or more); no and no. Like any remotely legit publication or entity, they run till they get their best time, and will note aberrations if there are any (extreme temps, launch control not working, whatever).

The GT500 is a low/mid 11 sec car from the factory; at least all these press cars are. There are no viable theories as to discrepancy of the ringer, other than the 10.6 car was a ringer car or ringer test (downhill, cheater slicks, or some other Funny Business).

I know it's tough for you to swallow .

[565]

When there is one ringer time (10.6), and all the rest are 11.3-11.5 (half a football field or more); no and no. Like any remotely legit publication or entity, they run till they get their best time, and will note aberrations if there are any (extreme temps, launch control not working, whatever).

The GT500 is a low/mid 11 sec car from the factory; at least all these press cars are. There are no viable theories as to discrepancy of the ringer, other than the 10.6 car was a ringer car or ringer test (downhill, cheater slicks, or some other Funny Business).

If all the magazines are getting low to mid 11's for the GT500, then it's a low to mid 11 second car.   Significantly lower times obtained by owners measured on a drag strip are not surprising.

The reason for this is several fold, but namely the difference between regular asphalt and a prepped track surface, and the fact that magazine tests correct the times to SAE conditions of 77 degrees F (25 C), 29.2348 inches mercury (Hg) barometric pressure (99 kPa), and zero percent relative humidity.

Motor Trend discusses this here.
https://www.motortrend.com/news/motor-trend-testing/

For example, GM claims my C5 z06 will do 12.4 secs and 116mph in the quarter mile.  C&D got those exact times, and other magazines got similar times.  The C5 z06 is a mid 12 second car in realistic circumstances.

However, on a prepped track surface, with a burn out before the run, with ice cooling down the intakes before the run, high pressure day, and ideal cold air temps, and a track surface warmed by the sun or prior runs, one can get much better times. 

There are owners deep into the 11s with bone stock C5 z06s. With some running in the 11.7s.
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c5-general/1549325-the-c5-z06-fast-list.html

Super Chevy tested their bone stock C5 z06 at 11.9 in the 1/4 mile, much quicker than any other magazine test.  The reason?  Prepped track surface, putting ice and stuff on the intakes prior to the run, ideal conditions.
http://www.superchevy.com/features/0410htp-2004-z06-corvette-feature

Another example is that the C7 ZR1 usually runs 10.7 or 10.8 in most magazine tests.
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a20903305/2019-chevrolet-corvette-zr1-instrumented-test-review/

However with a good track prep and ideal conditions, the C7 ZR1 can run a 10.36 1/4 mile
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c7-zr1-discussion/4133249-2019-zr1-stock-tire-record-run-at-richmond-dragway.html


Manufactures claim times that are adjusted for SAE conditions (air temp and altitude), on a non prepped track surface, just like magazines test them so the times match, because it looks bad when no magazine can replicate your claims.

Dodge bucked that trend with the Demon, claiming acceleration tests that were achieved on a prepped drag strip surface.  It kinda made sense for the Demon since the drag strip with a prepped surface was the entire point of that car (it comes standard with just one seat for God's sake).  It also explained why magazines couldn't replicate those times without a prepped surface.


Ford has followed suit with acceleration claims with a prepped surface, as mentioned in this C&D article.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a29569947/ford-mustang-shelby-gt500-performance/

It makes much less sense for Ford to do this with the GT500 because it's not designed to spend it's life a quarter mile at a time like the Demon was. 

In the Motor1 article on the 10.6 GT500 run, if you watch the video you can see that they did a burn out, and you can see the track surface literally covered with rubber.
https://www.motor1.com/news/379132/2020-shelby-gt500-quarter-mile/

That kind of surface and prep makes a HUGE difference.

Magazines performing their standard tests on their standard road surface, without a burn out, with SAE correction are never going to get that 10.7 second run out of the GT500.   The GT500 isn't a 10.7 second car, just like the C7 ZR1 isn't a 10.3 second car, just like the C5 Z06 isn't a 11.7 second car. 

If you line up next to a ZR1 auto with your GT500 at the stop lights, you are probably going to lose.  If you line up next to a C8 Z51 with your GT500, you likely will be eating dust until you reel him in somewhere around the 1/4 mile mark.

[FoMoJo]

^^That's a bunch of nonsense.

What a car gets on a track with a competent driver is what it is.

[GoCougs]

The 11.3-11.5 times I have seen are all on professional drag tracks, with burnout. Most are vids, with track slips, like this: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIk7dtbKnTE&t=77s

With DCT the process window to eek out time (varying launch techniques, no-lift throttle shifting, etc.) is virtually nil, unlike with, say, a C5 Z06 (w/MT).

Prepped track and advantageous atmo conditions won't net 10.6 from an 11.4 car. Plus, your examples are about half that difference.

There is also the competition. By the tale of the tape, you have to be under 5 lb/hp (ZR1, F12, F488, 720S, R8, etc.) or have profound advantage in traction (AWD) and gearing (911 Turbo, R8) to legit be well into the 10s off the showroom floor.

There are shens afoot with the supposed "private" Ford presser 10.6 run.

[FoMoJo]

It happened, get over it.

[GoCougs]

One would think that Ford would learn from the 200+ MPH debacle with the S197 GT500.

[12,000 RPM]

^^That's a bunch of nonsense.

What a car gets on a track with a competent driver is what it is.

Auto transmissions + launch control has pretty much taken the driver out of the equation.

One would think that Ford would learn from the 200+ MPH debacle with the S197 GT500.

If you're scared, just say you're scared. CarSPIN is a brotherhood and we are here for you.

[SJ_GTI]

If you're scared, just say you're scared. CarSPIN is a brotherhood and we are here for you.

[FoMoJo]

Auto transmissions + launch control has pretty much taken the driver out of the equation.

A good driver can dial in a car to fit the track conditions. 

[Laconian]

https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2019/11/ford-mustang-lithium-900-horsepower-entirely-electric-six-speed-manual/#more-1695804

Uhhhh shiiiiiiiiiit, this thing would punch a hole in spacetime...

And it has a stick shift?!

[Eye of the Tiger]

I always thought 2 or 3 speeds might be useful on an electric car, but 6 speeds + a jizzillion torques = why?

[Laconian]

I always thought 2 or 3 speeds might be useful on an electric car, but 6 speeds + a jizzillion torques = why?

Never ask "why" with SEMA cars.

[GoCougs]

Electric cars are pretty terrible to drive, so a M/T will make it less so.

[CaminoRacer]

I always thought 2 or 3 speeds might be useful on an electric car, but 6 speeds + a jizzillion torques = why?

Yeah, it's not necessary. 2 or 3 is plenty for a hi-po car that wants a high top speed. 1 is all that's needed for a regular street car.

[CaminoRacer]

Electric cars are pretty terrible to drive, so a M/T will make it less so.

100% not true and it's obvious you haven't driven a Tesla or Bolt.

-10 internetry

[GoCougs]

So I have a bright green convertible Ecoboost Mustang rental for the week.

Dat hood. Like driving a battleship.

Ride and NVH better than expected - quite good actually.

Ecoboost has some lag and some grumble, but feels like a bigger motor. Power dives in the upper revs. MPG lags EPA estimate at 21.5. So, typical turbo motor.

10 sp AT is a mixed bag. Manual shifts are laggy at anything less than about 1/2 throttle, and jerky in sport+ mode. At least it won't auto upshift (which is so annoying).

Does decent burnouts, if you run it up against the brakes first. Lag prevents a snappy burnout from throttle alone. Seems to have an LSD even.

[CaminoRacer]

The Ecoboosts seem decent around town but I drove one on a tight autocross course and hated it. Half of the hate comes from stock rental car tires which easily fixed. But the lag and throttle hang was tough on a tight course. A manual transmission might have helped a bit, but I think you'd have to do a lot of ECU work + antilag. Similar to what the GM engineers did with their autox Camaro 4 cyl that won an SCCA CAM Challenge last year.

[r0tor]

Not sure how you can bitch about turbo lag on something that hits peakish boost at 2k rpms

[12,000 RPM]

Not sure how you can bitch about turbo lag on something that hits peakish boost at 2k rpms

Turbo still has to spool, and those RPM ratings are more suggestions than anything.

Still a V8 or nothing when it comes to pony cars IMO.