JFC man.
QuoteThe engine lineup will greatly vary from the 136-hp 316d to the 380-hp M340i.
The curtain is about to fall on the sixth-generation 3 Series as BMW is putting the finishing touches on the next iteration of its highly acclaimed sedan. Rumored to debut in October at the Paris Motor Show, the 3er will go on sale in about a year from now and unsurprisingly it's going to be available with a wide array of gasoline and diesel engines.
Sources close BMW have told Spanish magazine Motor.es the entry point into the gasoline-fed engine lineup will be represented by the 318i with 150 horsepower bringing a 14-hp bump over the current model. Available with either a six-speed manual or an optional eight-speed automatic, the new 318i will come exclusively with a rear-wheel-drive layout.
For those in need of more oomph, the 320i will up the power ante to 204 hp and will give buyers the option of both gearboxes, and either rear- or all-wheel drive. Compared to the existing 320i, its replacement will have an extra 20 hp. A thrifty 320i Efficient Dynamics version seems to be in the pipeline as a 170-hp, RWD-only model with both the manual and the auto.
Exclusively offered with the automatic gearbox, the 330i will grow from today's 252 hp to 265 hp delivered to either the rear wheels or to both front and rear axles.
The temporary range topper (until the M3's arrival) will be the M340i as an auto- and xDrive-only model providing 380 hp, which would represent a massive increase over the existing 326-hp M340i.
On the diesel side, we kick things off with the 316d and its 136 hp (20 hp more than before) channeled to the rear wheels via either the manual or the auto. Up next is the 318d rated at 163 hp (+13 hp) and with the same transmissions and RWD-only configuration. Should you want a diesel-powered 3 Series with AWD, you will have to step up to the 320d and its 204 hp. It will have 14 hp more than the current car and will please both worlds by being available with a manual and an automatic.
Hotter diesels will include the 325d and 330d with RWD or AWD and an automatic-only configuration. The former is said to offer 238 hp (up by 14 hp) whereas the later will churn 265 hp (up by 7 hp).
The crown jewel of the diesel 3 Series family will be an M340d expected to produce anywhere between 320 and 340 hp sent to both axles via an eight-speed automatic. It will replace the existing 335d and its 313-hp output.
Of course, these numbers are not official at this point and there could be some small changes here and there. It's worth mentioning a couple of automatic xDrive plug-in hybrids are on the agenda in the form of the 325e and 330e. These partially electrified 3 Series model will allegedly boast 230 hp and 265 hp, respectively.
https://www.motor1.com/news/230982/bmw-3-series-engine-details-leaked/
So just as a quick summary, of all the versions of the next 3 series we are most likely to get (320i, 330i, M340i, 330d, 330e),
the only version to come with a stick is the cheapest, least powerful 320i. And the only 6 banger version to start will be automatic AND AWD only. With these changes, if you don't care about the brand, what is the point of a 3 series over any of its competition anymore? MCM give me your best spin please, I'd love to hear how this is a positive development.
"BMW: The Ultimate Audi"... no, I take that back, Audi offers a stickshift with its 330i equivalent, as does Cadillac and I think Jaguar. What is going on
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 13, 2018, 10:56:57 AM
With these changes, if you don't care about the brand, what is the point of a 3 series over any of its competition anymore? MCM give me your best spin please, I'd love to hear how this is a positive development.
Problem is nobody buys the goddam manuals new today. Whatever the "point" is, it is enough to keep the 3er as a sales class leader
today. That will not change losing the manuals because NO ONE buys them.
I hope the xDrive only M340i is a rumour only. That would suck. Maybe it'd be ok if they tune the AWD system like they seem to have done with the new, AWD M5. From what I've read they got that one right.
BMW's demographics are definitely changing, it's sad but they'd be dumb to not tailor their cars for current buyers' tastes.
I like the F30 more than the E90
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on February 13, 2018, 11:11:35 AM
Problem is nobody buys the goddam manuals new today. Whatever the "point" is, it is enough to keep the 3er as a sales class leader today. That will not change losing the manuals because NO ONE buys them.
I hope the xDrive only M340i is a rumour only. That would suck. Maybe it'd be ok if they tune the AWD system like they seem to have done with the new, AWD M5. From what I've read they got that one right.
I don't see how eliminating drivetrain and transmission choices will help keep the 3er as a sales class leader. Someone who wants a RWD manual sedan with a 6 banger will have to shop elsewhere.
Quote from: 2o6 on February 13, 2018, 11:25:58 AM
I like the F30 more than the E90
I like the E60 better than both, but it's too old. Of the two I prefer the F30 as well, mainly for practical reasons.
F30 sport models drive differently than the comfort biased basic cars.
I don't care for any modern BMW except for the M3 and M2. I expect that this won't change with the next generation cars. BMW is probably saving the manuals for only their ///M cars and I expect that if this powertrain lineup is true, the USDM 320 will probably be auto only too.
BMW is going to hell and people who drive them are losers. I'm just glad I sold mine before my son is old enough to realize that.
Lost the plot? They've found it more than ever. When was the last time you saw a manual anything? Manual transmissions are basically a myth now.
Hold on, you task people to task for wanting cars that no one will buy. And now you're upset with BMW for making cars customers will buy. This is their first step in getting rid of the manual transmission altogether. They've been marching slowly towards that for years now.
This is our time. Enthusiasts want CR-Vs and autonomous cars. Enthusiasts call people image-conscious for not wanting a minivan. If you like to drive, you're a relic. This is the vape era, popcorn lung and all. Cars are dead. BMW is trying to survive. Boring is the new everything, because everything else no longer exists. If you like to drive and want something new, buy a Miata while you still can. NE Miata will be a SkyActiv plug-in crossover, maybe a convertible like the Murano. This is where we are now; can't hate on them for not making "Jalopnik specials" or catering to enthusiasts who won't buy them and then hate on them for going after people who only buy for the badge. A BMW will always be a BMW and it'll always be German and it'll always be expensive, and because of that there will always be prestige attached to the name and therefore people will buy it. They got their laurels and now they're going to rest on them until something makes them do otherwise. These cars aren't for us anymore. They're only a stopgap before everything goes plug-in and autonomous.
Turbos w/manuals are sorta sucky, and if the I6 remains single turbo, that much boost from a single turbo to get 380 hp out of a 3.0L motor = really sucky.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 13, 2018, 05:08:27 PM
Turbos w/manuals are sorta sucky, and if the I6 remains single turbo, that much boost from a single turbo to get 380 hp out of a 3.0L motor = really sucky.
M2 has a single turbo and 360hp. Not sucky. One thing BMW can still do well is engines.
Maybe the plot hasn't been lost (at least in the M division). Just out, C&D M5 test:
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2018-bmw-m5-test-review
It's been a while since C&D had a good thing to say about a BMW (excepting the M2 maybe - and the X1/X3):
"That makes the new M5 the quickest sedan we've ever tested, tying a Tesla Model S P90D to 60 mph but pulling ahead by 100 mph and in the quarter-mile. Turbo lag is absent, and the engine delivers instantaneous big whacks of power similar to a massive naturally aspirated engine. There's no slush in the gearbox, either; the torque converter locks up almost as soon as you get rolling."
"While the numbers are shocking, the new M5 has more going for it than numbers. There's a closer connection with the driver in this M5, one that isn't as overtly filtered through silicon chips and electronics. It's more amusing and less robotic than its predecessor. Unlike so many BMWs of late, the steering is lively and has some actual feedback. At the track, the M5 put up 0.98 g on the skidpad, and the front tires chatter and protest as they try to fight off understeer. It's a different story on the road, where the chassis exhibits balanced, lively, and secure handling that gives the impression that the M5 is smaller than it is. There's joy again in hustling the M5. You're in the game—and not just a spectator to a 21st-century display of technology."
"In spite of its all-wheel drive and automatic transmission, the M5 is a return to form. For the first time in a long time, we're lusting after a new M5. It might not be the pure and competition-bred sedan of its youth, but the new iteration has stopped placing technology over tactility and numbers over enjoyment. The technology is still present, but the whole car is better at integrating the tech and drawing the driver in. The performance data is more impressive than before, but the car is more than just something that generates an eye-popping test sheet. It's better to drive than its predecessor, which is something we haven't been able to say about an M5 since 2000."
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on February 13, 2018, 05:10:27 PM
M2 has a single turbo and 360hp. Not sucky. One thing BMW can still do well is engines.
Very true... The current N55 and S55 just spectacular engines
Moral of the story is if you want a manual I6 BMW you better get it now.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on February 13, 2018, 11:11:35 AM
Problem is nobody buys the goddam manuals new today. Whatever the "point" is, it is enough to keep the 3er as a sales class leader today. That will not change losing the manuals because NO ONE buys them.
I hope the xDrive only M340i is a rumour only. That would suck. Maybe it'd be ok if they tune the AWD system like they seem to have done with the new, AWD M5. From what I've read they got that one right.
Not true. BMW moves as many MT equipped cars today as they did 15 years ago. However, MTs make up a smaller percentage of sales (BMW's sales have increased, and almost the entirety of that increase has been AT volume).
An additional Problem: It was already expensive for manufacturers to certify all of the different engine/transmission combos. Going forward anything that has effect on fuel economy is going to have to be certified. Wide tires, aero kit, all will have to be tested.
Quote from: Raza on February 13, 2018, 04:59:19 PM
Lost the plot? They've found it more than ever. When was the last time you saw a manual anything? Manual transmissions are basically a myth now.
Hold on, you task people to task for wanting cars that no one will buy. And now you're upset with BMW for making cars customers will buy. This is their first step in getting rid of the manual transmission altogether. They've been marching slowly towards that for years now.
This is our time. Enthusiasts want CR-Vs and autonomous cars. Enthusiasts call people image-conscious for not wanting a minivan. If you like to drive, you're a relic. This is the vape era, popcorn lung and all. Cars are dead. BMW is trying to survive. Boring is the new everything, because everything else no longer exists. If you like to drive and want something new, buy a Miata while you still can. NE Miata will be a SkyActiv plug-in crossover, maybe a convertible like the Murano. This is where we are now; can't hate on them for not making "Jalopnik specials" or catering to enthusiasts who won't buy them and then hate on them for going after people who only buy for the badge. A BMW will always be a BMW and it'll always be German and it'll always be expensive, and because of that there will always be prestige attached to the name and therefore people will buy it. They got their laurels and now they're going to rest on them until something makes them do otherwise. These cars aren't for us anymore. They're only a stopgap before everything goes plug-in and autonomous.
What on Google Earth are you on about m8
Of course enthusiasts still enjoy driving. The aftermarket for driving enhancing parts is booming. Track days are popular. Events like Grid Life and Cars & Coffee keep growing. And as far as cars go, just from memory here are all the cars available with manuals (asterisk for manual ONLY):
A4
2 series/M2
3/4 series & M3/4
M5
Sonic
Cruze?
Camaro
Corvette
Challenger
Fiesta/ST*
Focus/ST*/RS*
Rustang/GT350*/GT350R*
Fit
Civic/SI*/Type-R*
Accord
HR-V?
Accent
Elantra
Veloster/N*
Some Jags
Rio
Forte
2
3
6
CX-3
Miata
Mirage :lol:
Versa?
Sentra?
Altima?
370Z
Boxster/Cayman
911/GT3
Impreza
Whatever Ragz drives
WRX/STI*
BRZ
iA
iM
Corolla
Golf/GTI/R
Jetta/GLI
Passat?
I would argue there are more driver focused manual transmission equipped cars than there have ever been... and despite the homogenization and corporatization of the auto industry that number has seemed to grow substantially over the last decade. Even better, most of those cars are within reach of the general population, rather than being near-irrelevant unobtanium mid 6 figure exotics.
So yea I'm very disappointed in BMW because the 3 literally created a segment of cars for enthusiasts, and they seem to move further and further away from that with each generation.... but using this as some kind of bellweather for the whole industry? Nah calm down. Unless you were just being sarcastic (if you even know when you are being serious or sarcastic anymore)
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on February 13, 2018, 05:17:13 PM
Maybe the plot hasn't been lost (at least in the M division). Just out, C&D M5 test:
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2018-bmw-m5-test-review
It's been a while since C&D had a good thing to say about a BMW (excepting the M2 maybe - and the X1/X3):
"That makes the new M5 the quickest sedan we've ever tested, tying a Tesla Model S P90D to 60 mph but pulling ahead by 100 mph and in the quarter-mile. Turbo lag is absent, and the engine delivers instantaneous big whacks of power similar to a massive naturally aspirated engine. There's no slush in the gearbox, either; the torque converter locks up almost as soon as you get rolling."
"While the numbers are shocking, the new M5 has more going for it than numbers. There's a closer connection with the driver in this M5, one that isn't as overtly filtered through silicon chips and electronics. It's more amusing and less robotic than its predecessor. Unlike so many BMWs of late, the steering is lively and has some actual feedback. At the track, the M5 put up 0.98 g on the skidpad, and the front tires chatter and protest as they try to fight off understeer. It's a different story on the road, where the chassis exhibits balanced, lively, and secure handling that gives the impression that the M5 is smaller than it is. There's joy again in hustling the M5. You're in the game—and not just a spectator to a 21st-century display of technology."
"In spite of its all-wheel drive and automatic transmission, the M5 is a return to form. For the first time in a long time, we're lusting after a new M5. It might not be the pure and competition-bred sedan of its youth, but the new iteration has stopped placing technology over tactility and numbers over enjoyment. The technology is still present, but the whole car is better at integrating the tech and drawing the driver in. The performance data is more impressive than before, but the car is more than just something that generates an eye-popping test sheet. It's better to drive than its predecessor, which is something we haven't been able to say about an M5 since 2000."
Meanwhile, here is the summary for the 5 just under this (M550i xDrive):
https://www.caranddriver.com/bmw/5-series
HIGHS
Performance, refinement, equipment.
LOWS
Inert driving experience, unresolved ride, no steering feel.So of the dozens of permutations of the G30, the only one that is any fun to drive is the one that costs 2x the average US household income.
I think you hate old BMWs because they are a reminder of what the company is capable of. They are selling a lot of cars, but the cars are getting worse and worse. C&D hasn't had anything good to say about them because the majority of them are just not driver's cars anymore.
New BMWs are just fickle for enthusiasts.
Take a stock F15 X5 xdrive35i. Terrible from an enthusiast perspective as it's way slanted towards luxury (even for an SUV). Find one with the extremely rare "dynamic handling package" and suddenly the thing is close to X5M handling. Go shopping at M performance and add the MPPK, exhaust, brakes and the thing turns into a fairly exciting package that's 9/10s an M model.
Same for the F30 3er (and possibly 5er but never looked into them much). Option packages exist to make the thing pretty exciting.
It seems that although stock base model BMWs are as dull as ever, through careful option selection (and increased cost) you can still get an enthusiast benchmark.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 14, 2018, 05:53:43 AM
I think you hate old BMWs because they are a reminder of what the company is capable of. They are selling a lot of cars, but the cars are getting worse and worse. C&D hasn't had anything good to say about them because the majority of them are just not driver's cars anymore.
Thanks for informing me that I "hate" old BMWs. Time to go sell that E46, then.
About that M550i, I drove one at an autocross and a few exercises a few months ago at a club event to which I brought my E60 and Monika drove the 1M. I thought the M550i was a lot of fun. As expected, about 8-9/10ths the "excitement" of my E60. I don't really get all the C&D complaining about it.
Quote from: r0tor on February 14, 2018, 06:29:53 AM
New BMWs are just fickle for enthusiasts.
Take a stock F15 X5 xdrive35i. Terrible from an enthusiast perspective as it's way slanted towards luxury (even for an SUV). Find one with the extremely rare "dynamic handling package" and suddenly the thing is close to X5M handling. Go shopping at M performance and add the MPPK, exhaust, brakes and the thing turns into a fairly exciting package that's 9/10s an M model.
Same for the F30 3er (and possibly 5er but never looked into them much). Option packages exist to make the thing pretty exciting.
It seems that although stock base model BMWs are as dull as ever, through careful option selection (and increased cost) you can still get an enthusiast benchmark.
Yes. For example a 330i with the right options is a reasonably good 3 series in the context of its history and enthusiast expectations.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 14, 2018, 05:46:54 AM
What on Google Earth are you on about m8
Of course enthusiasts still enjoy driving. The aftermarket for driving enhancing parts is booming. Track days are popular. Events like Grid Life and Cars & Coffee keep growing. And as far as cars go, just from memory here are all the cars available with manuals (asterisk for manual ONLY):
A4
2 series/M2
3/4 series & M3/4
M5
Sonic
Cruze?
Camaro
Corvette
Challenger
Fiesta/ST*
Focus/ST*/RS*
Rustang/GT350*/GT350R*
Fit
Civic/SI*/Type-R*
Accord
HR-V?
Accent
Elantra
Veloster/N*
Some Jags
Rio
Forte
2
3
6
CX-3
Miata
Mirage :lol:
Versa?
Sentra?
Altima?
370Z
Boxster/Cayman
911/GT3
Impreza
Whatever Ragz drives
WRX/STI*
BRZ
iA
iM
Corolla
Golf/GTI/R
Jetta/GLI
Passat?
I would argue there are more driver focused manual transmission equipped cars than there have ever been... and despite the homogenization and corporatization of the auto industry that number has seemed to grow substantially over the last decade. Even better, most of those cars are within reach of the general population, rather than being near-irrelevant unobtanium mid 6 figure exotics.
So yea I'm very disappointed in BMW because the 3 literally created a segment of cars for enthusiasts, and they seem to move further and further away from that with each generation.... but using this as some kind of bellweather for the whole industry? Nah calm down. Unless you were just being sarcastic (if you even know when you are being serious or sarcastic anymore)
So, your list is really grasping at straws in some places. Sure, performance cars still exist. But they're hardly practical—I should know, my daily driver is a sports car. I'm not talking about cars that will largely be second cars. If you have a family or can practically only have one car, you're not going to buy a Corvette as your daily driver. Even so, if you take the Porsche twins, they're a big disappointment compared to the previous models. Plus, the 370Z has never been good; it's always just been a not as good looking version of the 350Z. And the 350Z was just a good looking SUV. Coupes aren't really what I'm talking about here. There will always be a few on the market, until manually driven cars are made illegal, anyway. Plus, a lot of those aren't even good cars, they're just fast. 370Z, like I mentioned. Camaro is a performance car that you can't see out of. The Challenger is a big fat pig.
As for the four door cars, I mean come on. Sentra? Veloster? Fit? HR-V? Kias? Altima? Corolla? Accord? At best, most of those cars are crap and have a manual to make them cheaper. The Accord is the only one that's good for driving everyday and being good to drive. A base model Impreza? That's never been an enthusiast's car; do they even sell them without a CVT anymore? What's an iA and iM? Are they Scions? I thought Scion folded. Passat has been a rolling mattress for years now. Most of these cars you're listing are economy cars.
Then there's the boy racer cars, like the performance Fords, the Civic Si (I mean come on, anyone with eyes will hate to own that car), STI/WRX; these aren't cars adults drive, they're made for kids to lust after and for the middle aged to buy in an attempt to recapture their youth.
Also, in what world does the 8 speed automatic only M5 have a manual? It doesn't even have a fake ass poseur marketing manual (aka DSG). Plus, the M5 and 911 are 100K cars. Clearly not the type of car I'm talking about when we started talking about a 3 series.
That said, there are a few decent cars left on your list that can do the everyday duty for normal people who don't have the ability to have a car sit around most of the time. The Accord, like I said, is a good one. GTI, definitely. Not so sure about the GLI, especially after seeing the new Jetta in 4x4 mode. The 320i is a good option, too. There are a few cars left—for now. But where's today's E39 540i 6MT? What can you take the kids to school in and go to work in and doesn't have a riceboy aero kit on it? The Golf R? That's it? Certainly not the 320i.
Your attitude of "everyone who is more concerned than I am is freaking out for no reason" only goes so far. BMW has more people studying the market than we do. The 3 series has been the car that people have been chasing for decades. As the 3 goes, so will the rest of the market, eventually. As long as the 3 series is successful at turning its back on the enthusiast market; which it most likely will be because enthusiasts are such a small percentage of the market. Companies will never go broke not making cars for enthusiasts.
As Hector and MX pointed out, the manual take rate is smaller now than it used to be. How many people on this board of supposed enthusiasts even drive a manual car? Me. Rags. R0tor. MX. Alex?
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 14, 2018, 05:46:54 AM
A4
2 series/M2
3/4 series & M3/4
M5
Sonic
Cruze? (yes! and available on most trims, and with a diesel)
Camaro
Corvette
Challenger
Fiesta/ST*
Focus/ST*/RS*
Rustang/GT350*/GT350R*
Fit
Civic/SI*/Type-R*
Accord
HR-V? (yep!)
Accent
Elantra
Veloster/N*
Some Jags
Rio (only on super base model)
Forte
2
3
6
CX-3 (not in the US)
Miata
Mirage :lol:
Versa? (Only on base model)
Sentra? (only on base model)
Altima?
370Z
Boxster/Cayman
911/GT3
Impreza
Whatever Ragz drives (XV Crosstrek)
WRX/STI*
BRZ
iA
iM
Corolla
Golf/GTI/R
Jetta/GLI
Passat?
Quote from: Raza on February 14, 2018, 07:06:46 AM
So, your list is really grasping at straws in some places. Sure, performance cars still exist. But they're hardly practical—I should know, my daily driver is a sports car. I'm not talking about cars that will largely be second cars. If you have a family or can practically only have one car, you're not going to buy a Corvette as your daily driver. Even so, if you take the Porsche twins, they're a big disappointment compared to the previous models. Plus, the 370Z has never been good; it's always just been a not as good looking version of the 350Z. And the 350Z was just a good looking SUV. Coupes aren't really what I'm talking about here. There will always be a few on the market, until manually driven cars are made illegal, anyway. Plus, a lot of those aren't even good cars, they're just fast. 370Z, like I mentioned. Camaro is a performance car that you can't see out of. The Challenger is a big fat pig.
As for the four door cars, I mean come on. Sentra? Veloster? Fit? HR-V? Kias? Altima? Corolla? Accord? At best, most of those cars are crap and have a manual to make them cheaper. The Accord is the only one that's good for driving everyday and being good to drive. A base model Impreza? That's never been an enthusiast's car; do they even sell them without a CVT anymore? What's an iA and iM? Are they Scions? I thought Scion folded. Passat has been a rolling mattress for years now. Most of these cars you're listing are economy cars.
Then there's the boy racer cars, like the performance Fords, the Civic Si (I mean come on, anyone with eyes will hate to own that car), STI/WRX; these aren't cars adults drive, they're made for kids to lust after and for the middle aged to buy in an attempt to recapture their youth.
Also, in what world does the 8 speed automatic only M5 have a manual? It doesn't even have a fake ass poseur marketing manual (aka DSG). Plus, the M5 and 911 are 100K cars. Clearly not the type of car I'm talking about when we started talking about a 3 series.
That said, there are a few decent cars left on your list that can do the everyday duty for normal people who don't have the ability to have a car sit around most of the time. The Accord, like I said, is a good one. GTI, definitely. Not so sure about the GLI, especially after seeing the new Jetta in 4x4 mode. The 320i is a good option, too. There are a few cars left—for now. But where's today's E39 540i 6MT? What can you take the kids to school in and go to work in and doesn't have a riceboy aero kit on it? The Golf R? That's it? Certainly not the 320i.
Your attitude of "everyone who is more concerned than I am is freaking out for no reason" only goes so far. BMW has more people studying the market than we do. The 3 series has been the car that people have been chasing for decades. As the 3 goes, so will the rest of the market, eventually. As long as the 3 series is successful at turning its back on the enthusiast market; which it most likely will be because enthusiasts are such a small percentage of the market. Companies will never go broke not making cars for enthusiasts.
As Hector and MX pointed out, the manual take rate is smaller now than it used to be. How many people on this board of supposed enthusiasts even drive a manual car? Me. Rags. R0tor. MX. Alex?
Again, what are you on about m8. You claim the industry is moving to get rid of the manual transmission altogether. Then when I post a list of a broad range of cars with manual transmissions, you discount all of them with bullshit. "O they only put sticks in those to make them cheaper (while claiming BMW DOESN'T offer manuals across its range because its too EXPENSIVE :wtf: )" "O well those cars dont count because I am to embarrassed to be seen in them" "O those cars dont count because they are Japanese" You have gone off the deep end man.
Bottom line, low take rate and all, stickshift is still alive and very well, with plenty of stickshift only offerings available. It's just a bummer that BMW has thrown up the white flag. Yes my current car is automatic, yes I don't define my worth as a person by the number of pedals in my car, but I still think it's important for stickshift to exist.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on February 14, 2018, 06:43:43 AM
Thanks for informing me that I "hate" old BMWs. Time to go sell that E46, then.
We are talking older than that
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on February 14, 2018, 06:43:43 AMAbout that M550i, I drove one at an autocross and a few exercises a few months ago at a club event to which I brought my E60 and Monika drove the 1M. I thought the M550i was a lot of fun. As expected, about 8-9/10ths the "excitement" of my E60. I don't really get all the C&D complaining about it.
Yes. For example a 330i with the right options is a reasonably good 3 series in the context of its history and enthusiast expectations.
Well to be fair I don't think there is any current BMW product you've driven that you haven't liked or been able to rationalize. It's like someone who works for Coca Cola proclaiming their latest soda is really good.
Dude, you even acknowledge that your list has a ton of duds on it—you put the Mitsubishi Mirage on it!
And I didn't say that any of those cars don't count because they're Japanese. I did consider saying that, because Japanese cars generally drive like sardine tins and terrible ergonomics, but I wanted to keep it serious. I even acknowledged that the Accord is a very good example of the type of car I was taking about.
And no one said anything about "worth as a person". That sounds like a chip on the shoulder you've got there buddy. So much for your "take it easy, man, you can always get a Nissan Versa if you want a fun car with a manual" attitude. :lol:
Seriously though, you have an odd relationship with image. You need to accept that it matters to you. You just said in another thread how much you like looking at your car. You'd never say that if you drove the new Civic.
IDK I like the new Civic
Quote from: 2o6 on February 14, 2018, 08:16:37 AM
IDK I like the new Civic
You're also like 23 years old.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on February 13, 2018, 05:17:13 PM
Maybe the plot hasn't been lost (at least in the M division). Just out, C&D M5 test:
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2018-bmw-m5-test-review
It's been a while since C&D had a good thing to say about a BMW (excepting the M2 maybe - and the X1/X3):
"That makes the new M5 the quickest sedan we've ever tested, tying a Tesla Model S P90D to 60 mph but pulling ahead by 100 mph and in the quarter-mile. Turbo lag is absent, and the engine delivers instantaneous big whacks of power similar to a massive naturally aspirated engine. There's no slush in the gearbox, either; the torque converter locks up almost as soon as you get rolling."
"While the numbers are shocking, the new M5 has more going for it than numbers. There's a closer connection with the driver in this M5, one that isn't as overtly filtered through silicon chips and electronics. It's more amusing and less robotic than its predecessor. Unlike so many BMWs of late, the steering is lively and has some actual feedback. At the track, the M5 put up 0.98 g on the skidpad, and the front tires chatter and protest as they try to fight off understeer. It's a different story on the road, where the chassis exhibits balanced, lively, and secure handling that gives the impression that the M5 is smaller than it is. There's joy again in hustling the M5. You're in the game—and not just a spectator to a 21st-century display of technology."
"In spite of its all-wheel drive and automatic transmission, the M5 is a return to form. For the first time in a long time, we're lusting after a new M5. It might not be the pure and competition-bred sedan of its youth, but the new iteration has stopped placing technology over tactility and numbers over enjoyment. The technology is still present, but the whole car is better at integrating the tech and drawing the driver in. The performance data is more impressive than before, but the car is more than just something that generates an eye-popping test sheet. It's better to drive than its predecessor, which is something we haven't been able to say about an M5 since 2000."
I'd wait for the head to head. C/D has a habbit of being very easy on first drive reviews then incredibly harsh on comparisons. I do however love this RWD/AWD system in the M5/E63 though.
Quote from: Raza on February 14, 2018, 07:06:46 AM
As Hector and MX pointed out, the manual take rate is smaller now than it used to be. How many people on this board of supposed enthusiasts even drive a manual car? Me. Rags. R0tor. MX. Alex?
Still quite a few here. Me, both Kevin's, Héctor, Tave.
But overall I agree with you. Not a ton of options anymore. My taste is getting more specific now though. As long as the Miata keeps being made with a manual I'm good. I'd love for it to be brought back on the 4Runner though.
There is a huge difference between keeping a manual option for an enthusiast and keeping a manual option as some way to advertise a super low new car price on a model you will probably never even find on the dealer lot...
I believe most of sportys list is the latter
That's probably part of it. Advertising a low starting price is one way to rope people in.
Quote from: r0tor on February 14, 2018, 09:54:15 AM
There is a huge difference between keeping a manual option for an enthusiast and keeping a manual option as some way to advertise a super low new car price on a model you will probably never even find on the dealer lot...
I believe most of sportys list is the latter
Manuals are lot cancer for cheapo cars. The incremental visits are not worth keeping a stick Kia Rio on the lot for 6 years
Most of my list is enthusiast focused
Not all manuals are lot liabilities, even in cheap cars
Do I count if my manual car is broken? :lol:
No. My manual still works and I don't even count :cry:
Quote from: Raza on February 14, 2018, 08:03:25 AM
Dude, you even acknowledge that your list has a ton of duds on it—you put the Mitsubishi Mirage on it!
That was the only dud. C&D gave the stickshift Accent a pretty positive review:
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2018-hyundai-accent-manual-test-review
Quote from: Raza on February 14, 2018, 08:03:25 AM
And I didn't say that any of those cars don't count because they're Japanese. I did consider saying that, because Japanese cars generally drive like sardine tins and terrible ergonomics, but I wanted to keep it serious. I even acknowledged that the Accord is a very good example of the type of car I was taking about.
The only cars on my list that are bad to drive are the Nissans and the Mirage.
Quote from: Raza on February 14, 2018, 08:03:25 AM
And no one said anything about "worth as a person". That sounds like a chip on the shoulder you've got there buddy. So much for your "take it easy, man, you can always get a Nissan Versa if you want a fun car with a manual" attitude. :lol:
Nobody has to; its obvious by how much you agonize over it. "The X1 is a perfect complement to my Z4, but I will be physically ill if I have to drive an automatic"
Quote from: Raza on February 14, 2018, 08:03:25 AM
Seriously though, you have an odd relationship with image. You need to accept that it matters to you. You just said in another thread how much you like looking at your car. You'd never say that if you drove the new Civic.
Well, your context for what defines a healthy relationship with image is strange. The European only cars, the watches, declaring people who drive minivans have "given up on life" (I know, you were "just joking").... I definitely care about my image; I've never claimed otherwise. The difference between me and you is that you seem to assign a large piece of one's character to stupid shit like what car they drive. Most people (rightfully) care about more important things.
"jalopnik specials" :lol:
I don't think enjoying looking at one's vehicle is necessarily a statement of image. Image would be telling other people to look at your car. As a car forum, we should all be able to appreciate that, which is why we post pictures of vehicles we like here.
Nah, everyone who buys a car thinks "what will people think if they see me in this?"
Some people don't care, some people think about it more. Others obsess. But it's always at least a little factor.
I don't disagree there, the douchebag college student image of the Z was part of why I sold it. Everyone else I saw in it made me wince. But I think Raza dry heaves and gets light headed at the thought of DDing something like a BRZ. "If only it had the prestige of a VW :cry:" :lol:
But yea, me liking how my car looks <> me caring about how it looks to others, even though I do.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on February 14, 2018, 01:00:02 PM
Nah, everyone who buys a car thinks "what will people think if they see me in this?"
Some people don't care, some people think about it more. Others obsess. But it's always at least a little factor.
I mean, I wasn't actually thinking about it when I bought the car, but I kind of like the lower key image projection of my Golf vs the S4 I had before it. And yes I know its a Golf R but other than the larger wheels/tires it pretty much looks like your basic VW Golf.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on February 14, 2018, 01:00:02 PM
Nah, everyone who buys a car thinks "what will people think if they see me in this?"
Some people don't care, some people think about it more. Others obsess. But it's always at least a little factor.
I don't think you're totally off. I mean, everybody projects a certain image of themselves in everything they do. It's what makes you, you. But yeah, I think across the board, people care either more or they care less. At the end of the day, though, you're doing it wrong if you bought a vehicle for image over your own satisfaction or enjoyment of it.
I´m getting a CR-V because I care what the spin thinks.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 14, 2018, 05:46:54 AM
What on Google Earth are you on about m8
Of course enthusiasts still enjoy driving. The aftermarket for driving enhancing parts is booming. Track days are popular. Events like Grid Life and Cars & Coffee keep growing. And as far as cars go, just from memory here are all the cars available with manuals (asterisk for manual ONLY):
Cars & Coffee caters to people who enjoy driving? Everyone one I've ever seen involves a bunch of people milling around parked cars. Then somebody in a Mustang attempting a burnout and ramming into pedestrians or other cars.
Our SCCA club used to recruit heavily at local C&Cs and similar car enthusiast gatherings (there's a big import tuner show/meet every summer as well and we set up a booth there), handing out flyers and discount vouchers (including free weekend memberships) to get people to go to local AutoXes. I can count on 1 hand the number of people from said gatherings have actually shown up over the past few years.
Enjoying driving <> doing autocross. I enjoy driving, even competitively, and I don't want to do autocross. Maybe driving was too specific. There are still people who enjoy cars, including using a 3rd pedal. Car culture shit like C&C etc. won't work with autonomous cars. Hell, look at all the time we waste here talking about cars. And this forum isn't even active. I'm on TCL now and it feels like the early aughts with the car talk. People still care.
An auto AWD only 6 banger 3er. Come on guys
I have some theories.
1, Euro6 emissions regs are really putting the pressure on European manufacturers. All the Euro manufacturers have moved away from stickshift on their performance offerings. To a degree, so have the JApanese. But Chevy/Ford/Dodge still offer stick on pretty much everything fun (sometimes only)
2, crumbling roads and increasing traffic have sapped the fun out of driving for a lot of people. If my commute was shit and I lived up where the roads were trash I would probably get a crossover too. A sporty fun car is no more fun than anything else stuck in traffic. Actually, when I drove my Z up to NYC I winced in horror as it clomped, rattled and squeaked over the shit roads. We don't have that shit down here. I'm actually thinking of going stiffer with the coils on the G
3, student debt?
4, overall trends are changing. There is a FOG at my job who used to have a stickshift Boxster. He drove like a total grandma. Any time I saw him he was under the speed limit. He recently replaced it.... any guesses? (Raza you can breathe easy, it is German :lol: )
Not everybody goes through brake pads every 10k miles, sporty. ;)
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 14, 2018, 05:26:44 PM
4, overall trends are changing. There is a FOG at my job who used to have a stickshift Boxster. He drove like a total grandma. Any time I saw him he was under the speed limit. He recently replaced it.... any guesses? (Raza you can breathe easy, it is German :lol: )
Audi Q5?
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 14, 2018, 04:56:03 PM
Enjoying driving <> doing autocross. I enjoy driving, even competitively, and I don't want to do autocross. Maybe driving was too specific. There are still people who enjoy cars, including using a 3rd pedal. Car culture shit like C&C etc. won't work with autonomous cars. Hell, look at all the time we waste here talking about cars. And this forum isn't even active. I'm on TCL now and it feels like the early aughts with the car talk. People still care.
Driving enthusiasts drive. Parking enthusiasts go to Cars and Coffee :evildude:.
Dick measuring enthusiasts go to C&C.
Hmmm 380hp in the new 340. I wonder if this is the engine that's going to be the top spec in the new Z4 and Toyota Supra, I hope it is.
Nissan needs to drop the 30VRDETT from the Q50 400RS into the next Z car.
Then we will have a new 300zx twin turbo vs an inline 6 turbocharged Supra Turbo. It's like 1993 all over again... sorta.
Quote from: 565 on February 14, 2018, 06:10:12 PM
Hmmm 380hp in the new 340. I wonder if this is the engine that's going to be the top spec in the new Z4 and Toyota Supra, I hope it is.
All info available points to that. Let's see if BMW drops an LSD in the Z4 at least in the top spec.
Nissan is going to have to knock the next Z out of the park. Like the rebirth of the Z32. Or it's gonna fail. VR30DETT and all
Quote from: 565 on February 14, 2018, 06:10:12 PM
Hmmm 380hp in the new 340. I wonder if this is the engine that's going to be the top spec in the new Z4 and Toyota Supra, I hope it is.
Nissan needs to drop the 30VRDETT from the Q50 400RS into the next Z car.
Then we will have a new 300zx twin turbo vs an inline 6 turbocharged Supra Turbo. It's like 1993 all over again... sorta.
Nissan's new TTV6's worth is TBD. It's not a hot vee so lag is noticeable. It also doesn't sound great and under performs WRT its numbers (though that might be due to the awful 7sp slushie AT).
Yea the JATCO box is awful. Same company that makes their self-destructing CVTs. Ghosn is a cheap bastard so no ZF for us :cry:
Quote from: MX793 on February 14, 2018, 03:55:21 PM
Cars & Coffee caters to people who enjoy driving? Everyone one I've ever seen involves a bunch of people milling around parked cars. Then somebody in a Mustang attempting a burnout and ramming into pedestrians or other cars.
Our SCCA club used to recruit heavily at local C&Cs and similar car enthusiast gatherings (there's a big import tuner show/meet every summer as well and we set up a booth there), handing out flyers and discount vouchers (including free weekend memberships) to get people to go to local AutoXes. I can count on 1 hand the number of people from said gatherings have actually shown up over the past few years.
I wish I could enjoy C&C, but I just can't. Even talking to auto-x people is more enjoyable, not even counting the driving
I would like to go soon. Onslaught, Rich, Tave, we should meet up. Maybe kart after and have copious beer and burgers.
I'm in Qatar Until August. Come over and let's go karting
Quote from: Rich on February 15, 2018, 06:30:26 AM
I’m in Qatar Until August. Come over and let’s go karting
:lol: No thanks. that country was weird.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on February 14, 2018, 02:44:48 PM
I´m getting a CR-V because I care what the spin thinks.
:rockon:
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 15, 2018, 05:36:47 AM
I would like to go soon. Onslaught, Rich, Tave, we should meet up. Maybe kart after and have copious beer and burgers.
We could go racing online in Forza....
Im game, my tag is Cool The Kid. Pretty sure the only person here who wouldn't get thrashed is r0tor
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on February 14, 2018, 02:44:48 PM
I´m getting a CR-V because I care what the spin thinks.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on February 15, 2018, 09:36:15 AM
:rockon:
Shit, I just read something that is making me doubt my commitment to the excellent CR-V:
http://www.jdpower.com/press-releases/jd-power-2018-us-vehicle-dependability-study
BMW ranked higher than Honda? X1 a honorable mention for dependability? CR-V nowhere to be seen?
Please talk some sense back into me. I just KNOW the CR-V is the only choice. Getting killed by cognitive dissonance! Help!
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 15, 2018, 10:50:55 AM
Im game, my tag is Cool The Kid. Pretty sure the only person here who wouldn't get thrashed is r0tor
I'll look you up later. Bring your best jap crap against my bavarian collection of pure excellence, gloriousness and ultimate driving machines.
Lol, only good BMWs in Forza are the GT3 cars. In A and S class los son comida
I don't know when I will be on next though
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 14, 2018, 01:52:48 PM
I don't disagree there, the douchebag college student image of the Z was part of why I sold it. Everyone else I saw in it made me wince. But I think Raza dry heaves and gets light headed at the thought of DDing something like a BRZ. "If only it had the prestige of a VW :cry:" :lol:
But yea, me liking how my car looks <> me caring about how it looks to others, even though I do.
Huh? Maybe you had that argument when it was badged as a Scion, but not Subaru. :huh:
Quote from: Raza on February 15, 2018, 02:25:01 PM
Huh? Maybe you had that argument when it was badged as a Scion, but not Subaru. :huh:
It's
literally the same car
Maybe BMW should badge them and charge a $10-20K premium on them.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 15, 2018, 04:32:47 PM
It's literally the same car
Maybe BMW should badge them and charge a $10-20K premium on them.
(http://hanabi.autoweek.com/sites/default/files/styles/gen-1200-675/public/p90270027_highres.jpg?itok=NdSaL04I)
(https://www.autocar.co.uk/sites/autocar.co.uk/files/styles/gallery_slide/public/bmw-m240i-rear-quarter.jpg?itok=CoobLu3k)
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on February 13, 2018, 05:10:27 PM
M2 has a single turbo and 360hp. Not sucky. One thing BMW can still do well is engines.
Not saying they don't (though IMO they hamstring themselves by clinging to the I6), it's that DCTs are ruling the hi-po roost these days, and it's not because enthusiasts all of a sudden don't want to manually shift their cars.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 15, 2018, 10:50:55 AM
Im game, my tag is Cool The Kid. Pretty sure the only person here who wouldn't get thrashed is r0tor
Iirc... Cale is pretty damn fast
We will see
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 15, 2018, 04:32:47 PM
It's literally the same car
Maybe BMW should badge them and charge a $10-20K premium on them.
Oh, is this the same "I'm above the marketing and advertising doesn't affect me" argument that everyone unconvincingly makes? The fact that Scions were marketed to backwards hat teenagers and people you wouldn't want to be associated with doesn't have any influence on your decision at all, eh?
Quote from: Raza on February 16, 2018, 06:06:24 AM
Oh, is this the same "I'm above the marketing and advertising doesn't affect me" argument that everyone unconvincingly makes? The fact that Scions were marketed to backwards hat teenagers and people you wouldn't want to be associated with doesn't have any influence on your decision at all, eh?
I can't tell the BRZ and FRS apart on the street
Quote from: Raza on February 16, 2018, 06:06:24 AM
Oh, is this the same "I'm above the marketing and advertising doesn't affect me" argument that everyone unconvincingly makes? The fact that Scions were marketed to backwards hat teenagers and people you wouldn't want to be associated with doesn't have any influence on your decision at all, eh?
Yes
It will be cheaper than the Subaru so I'd probably be more likely to buy it
Nobody said image doesn't matter, it just doesn't keep us up at night like it does to you
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 16, 2018, 08:07:22 AM
Yes
It will be cheaper than the Subaru so I'd probably be more likely to buy it
Nobody said image doesn't matter, it just doesn't keep us up at night like it does to you
How does it keep me up at night? This is your attitude of "anything more than I feel is neurotic and debilitating, anything less is shockingly blasé". I'm just willing to admit how image conscious I am. You still believe advertising doesn't work on you.
Quote from: Raza on February 16, 2018, 08:22:21 AM
How does it keep me up at night? This is your attitude of "anything more than I feel is neurotic and debilitating, anything less is shockingly blasé". I'm just willing to admit how image conscious I am. You still believe advertising doesn't work on you.
It's like saying you wouldn't buy a Dodge Neon because it's a POS, but you'd happily buy a Plymouth Neon
Quote from: 2o6 on February 16, 2018, 08:51:54 AM
It's like saying you wouldn't buy a Dodge Neon because it's a POS, but you'd happily buy a Plymouth Neon
Or no Pontiac Vibe, but definitely a Toyota Matrix
Most people cannot tell the difference between a BRZ or FRS
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 16, 2018, 11:37:16 AM
Or no Pontiac Vibe, but definitely a Toyota Matrix
Most people cannot tell the difference between a BRZ or FRS
To be fair, the vibe and matrix did look pretty different outside.
Subarus have as bad a rep or worse then Scion around here... Saying that, the obvious reason to buy the brz was the interior improvement over the Scion.
Quote from: r0tor on February 16, 2018, 12:30:43 PM
Subarus have as bad a rep or worse then Scion around here... Saying that, the obvious reason to buy the brz was the interior improvement over the Scion.
Is everyone driving 2.2/2.5's from the late 90s/early 00s? :lol:
Quote from: 2o6 on February 16, 2018, 08:51:54 AM
It's like saying you wouldn't buy a Dodge Neon because it's a POS, but you'd happily buy a Plymouth Neon
I'd rather take public transport than drive either of those mobile tumors.
Quote from: Submariner on February 16, 2018, 01:33:16 PM
I'd rather take public transport than drive either of those mobile tumors.
Congratulations.
Quote from: 2o6 on February 16, 2018, 08:51:54 AM
It's like saying you wouldn't buy a Dodge Neon because it's a POS, but you'd happily buy a Plymouth Neon
No, because they both have bad reputations.
Quote from: giant_mtb on February 16, 2018, 01:20:01 PM
Is everyone driving 2.2/2.5's from the late 90s/early 00s? :lol:
It's its mainly people with beat to shit wrxs driving like asshats. Every cars and coffee in the area is not complete without 50-75 examples of the above showing up.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 16, 2018, 11:37:16 AM
Or no Pontiac Vibe, but definitely a Toyota Matrix
Most people cannot tell the difference between a BRZ or FRS
Oh, there definitely are reasons to buy a Toyota Matrix over a Pontiac Vibe.
Quote from: r0tor on February 16, 2018, 02:43:46 PM
It's its mainly people with beat to shit wrxs driving like asshats. Every cars and coffee in the area is not complete without 50-75 examples of the above showing up.
Oh, well yeah. The next generation has gotten their hands on them used and destroyed them. Just look at the stancebro world. Shitty used cars with shitty mods.
Quote from: Raza on February 16, 2018, 02:43:45 PM
No, because they both have bad reputations.
So do BMWs :huh:
Let me put it like this
I drive exactly the same in the G as I did in the Z if not worse. In the Z I got pulled over a shit load of times, including once for a DUI check (I passed)
In the G, even all stance boi'd out, nobody bothers me. My last ticket was for an expired tag. So some cars reputations/impressions do have real consequences. What are the tangible consequences of driving a Scion vs a Subaru? To the automotive civilian they are both Scion TCs.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 16, 2018, 06:48:39 PM
Let me put it like this
I drive exactly the same in the G as I did in the Z if not worse. In the Z I got pulled over a shit load of times, including once for a DUI check (I passed)
In the G, even all stance boi'd out, nobody bothers me. My last ticket was for an expired tag. So some cars reputations/impressions do have real consequences. What are the tangible consequences of driving a Scion vs a Subaru? To the automotive civilian they are both Scion TCs.
You
literally drive a car with a badge that exists because of image consciousness.
Quote from: Raza on February 17, 2018, 02:06:05 AM
You literally drive a car with a badge that exists because of image consciousness.
If my car had Nissan badges I would still own it :huh:
Meanwhile, you will pay a premium for the same exact car to have the right badges. That is the height of brand whoredom
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 17, 2018, 05:22:57 AM
If my car had Nissan badges I would still own it :huh:
Point is, an entire brand--three of them, actually, it was four until Scion died--is built around image because image matters. Still think I'm weird for accepting that fact? You can keep pretending like it doesn't matter to you, but it matters to everyone.
Quote
Meanwhile, you will pay a premium for the same exact car to have the right badges. That is the height of brand whoredom
You actually did that. You
actually paid a premium price for a car with a luxury badge. Millions of people have done that. Even if you want to limit it to Lexus ES, Infiniti I, and Acura buyers, millions of people do that. Why?
Say it with me....
Because image matters!
"Image doesn't matter to me!"
Buys a Nissan with a luxury badge on it after stating he didn't like the image his Nissan projected
Dude, at this point you really have to see how ridiculous it is. This is getting to "That makes me smart.....I never said that" levels.
Other than Tibetan monks with years of training, we all are image conscious. But it sure is nice to ride the "high-horse" of 'I don't care what others think but you live for it!". Bullshit.
Maybe I'm having a brain fart, but is there even a Nissan version of a four-door G sedan? 🤔
Quote from: giant_mtb on February 17, 2018, 09:36:12 AM
Maybe I'm having a brain fart, but is there even a Nissan version of a four-door G sedan? 🤔
Not in the US, but I believe it's sold as a Nissan in other markets, unless that's changed.
So the argument could be made that he didn't really pay for a premium badge solely for the badge...the lesser badge doesn't offer an equivalent vehicle. I mean, he did own a Z. He just stepped it up to the 4-door version, which in this case, requires the badge upgrade.
Quote from: giant_mtb on February 17, 2018, 09:55:22 AM
So the argument could be made that he didn't really pay for a premium badge sololy for the badge...the lesser badge doesn't offer an equivalent vehicle. I mean, he did own a Z. He just stepped it up to the 4-door version, which in this case, requires the badge upgrade.
He could have gotten another Z and towed it behind.
Quote from: Raza on February 17, 2018, 06:40:29 AM
Point is, an entire brand--three of them, actually, it was four until Scion died--is built around image because image matters. Still think I'm weird for accepting that fact? You can keep pretending like it doesn't matter to you, but it matters to everyone.
You actually did that. You actually paid a premium price for a car with a luxury badge. Millions of people have done that. Even if you want to limit it to Lexus ES, Infiniti I, and Acura buyers, millions of people do that. Why?
Say it with me....
Because image matters!
For the millionth time, nobody has said image doesn't matter.
But if image matters so much to you that you would reject one car identical to another due to nothing but the brand,
something is wrong with you. It's not binary, there are degrees of how much image matters to people. To some people (you) it matters way too much.
And yea, the logo on the back is the ONLY reason I bought the G. Not like I couldn't have spent 1/10th the money for a G20 or I30 :facepalm:
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 17, 2018, 10:10:48 AM
For the millionth time, nobody has said image doesn't matter.
But if image matters so much to you that you would reject one car identical to another due to nothing but the brand, something is wrong with you. It's not binary, there are degrees of how much image matters to people. To some people (you) it matters way too much.
And yea, the logo on the back is the ONLY reason I bought the G. Not like I couldn't have spent 1/10th the money for a G20 or I30 :facepalm:
You act like you're above image consciousness, all the time. Constantly. And you do the thing you do where if anyone cares any degree more or less than you, you act as if they're a paralyzed shut-in because of it.
Quote from: Raza on February 17, 2018, 10:15:58 AM
You act like you're above image consciousness, all the time. Constantly. And you do the thing you do where if anyone cares any degree more or less than you, you act as if they're a paralyzed shut-in because of it.
No I don't... I post on a men's fashion forum and tailor my own clothes FFS. My main hobby centers around vanity (bodybuilding). I don't act like or pretend to be above anything. But writing off a car for nothing other than its badge? When BMW is the official brand of douchebags? (And I say this as a hopeful future BMW owner) IMO its a bit much and pretty contradictory. Brand image means everything, until it desn't.
I DRIVE A DODGE STRATUS.
Quote from: giant_mtb on February 17, 2018, 11:00:30 AM
I DRIVE A DODGE STRATUS.
Wow you are a bad person. What a terrible image
What's my image if I were to drive this stunning piece of 1970s American engineering and quality design? :praise:
(https://s18.postimg.org/kjs0efi15/1974_Dodge_Monaco.jpg)
Quote from: cawimmer430 on February 17, 2018, 12:16:22 PM
What's my image if I were to drive this stunning piece of 1970s American engineering and quality design? :praise:
(https://s18.postimg.org/kjs0efi15/1974_Dodge_Monaco.jpg)
If it were in that pristine condition, it would be a marvelous image.
Quote from: giant_mtb on February 17, 2018, 09:36:12 AM
Maybe I'm having a brain fart, but is there even a Nissan version of a four-door G sedan? 🤔
Yes, Raza fails yet again.
The G is sold as the Skyline in Japan, and perhaps elsewhere. It (or at least beginning in MY2002) was originally designed for Infiniti as near luxury/sport vehicle (which the previously Skyline was not).
The thing I said that Raza side stepped
The FRZ and BRZ look the goddamn same. They're made in the same production line. Most of the interior body stampings are the same.
It's like calling the Dodge Neon a piece of shit, but happlily buying a Plymouth Neon. They look the goddamn same.
Quote from: 2o6 on February 17, 2018, 04:14:44 PM
The thing I said that Raza side stepped
The FRZ and BRZ look the goddamn same. They're made in the same production line. Most of the interior body stampings are the same.
It's like calling the Dodge Neon a piece of shit, but happlily buying a Plymouth Neon. They look the goddamn same.
:lol:
Quote from: Raza on February 16, 2018, 03:05:42 PM
Oh, there definitely are reasons to buy a Toyota Matrix over a Pontiac Vibe.
A major one I could think of is that all Pontiac dealers I ever dealt with were absolute jackasses.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on February 17, 2018, 12:16:22 PM
What's my image if I were to drive this stunning piece of 1970s American engineering and quality design? :praise:
(https://s18.postimg.org/kjs0efi15/1974_Dodge_Monaco.jpg)
I would assume you're either a 70 year old man with a bit of OCD, or one of those weird European types that fetishize American land yachts.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on February 17, 2018, 06:57:24 AM
Other than Tibetan monks with years of training, we all are image conscious. But it sure is nice to ride the "high-horse" of 'I don't care what others think but you live for it!". Bullshit.
Those monks all seem to take good care of those robes and funny hats. No point in monkin' if you look like a sherpa, you know?
Quote from: 2o6 on February 17, 2018, 04:14:44 PM
The thing I said that Raza side stepped
The FRZ and BRZ look the goddamn same. They're made in the same production line. Most of the interior body stampings are the same.
It's like calling the Dodge Neon a piece of shit, but happlily buying a Plymouth Neon. They look the goddamn same.
The Plymouth was clearly superior.
Quote from: MX793 on February 17, 2018, 07:14:57 PM
The Plymouth was clearly superior.
Well, it was no Aston Martin Cygnet...
Quote from: cawimmer430 on February 17, 2018, 12:16:22 PM
What's my image if I were to drive this stunning piece of 1970s American engineering and quality design? :praise:
(https://s18.postimg.org/kjs0efi15/1974_Dodge_Monaco.jpg)
On the spin the same as your current image.
Wimmer is going to be a gasket when he drives one of those pieces of shit and really sees how awful they are.
Quote from: MX793 on February 17, 2018, 07:14:57 PM
The Plymouth was clearly superior.
Yeah that Expresso trim...
Quote from: 2o6 on February 17, 2018, 04:14:44 PM
The thing I said that Raza side stepped
The FRZ and BRZ look the goddamn same. They're made in the same production line. Most of the interior body stampings are the same.
It's like calling the Dodge Neon a piece of shit, but happlily buying a Plymouth Neon. They look the goddamn same.
Dealership experience was undoubtedly different between the two.
Also, I didn't sidestep anything. You said you couldn't tell apart. You didn't address anything to me.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on February 17, 2018, 07:08:43 PM
A major one I could think of is that all Pontiac dealers I ever dealt with were absolute jackasses.
Absolutely.
Quote from: Raza on February 18, 2018, 07:52:07 PM
Dealership experience was undoubtedly different between the two.
You are grasping at straws. Scion doesn't exist anymore, so you'd be taking your FR-S to a Toyota dealership. Subaru is a run of the mill mainstream dealer like Toyota. The idea that the FR-S and BRZ have different dealership experiences is ridiculous.
All of the former Scion dealers here we're also Toyota dealership, so I'd expect the dealer experience was the same between the brands.
The dealership experience WAS the same. There weren't any dedicated Scion guys, usually just a Kiosk with the Scion moniker, and a dusty desk. The Scion guy would also sell you a Corolla if you wanted one.
The Scion guy definitely did sell Corollas over Scions, as the end of the Scion story indicated :lol:
I think the nightmare of the mainstream dealership is overblown. I could see something like a Mitsubishi dealer being hell, but a Toyota dealership in a good neighborhood? As long as the service department is on the up and up I don't see the issue.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 19, 2018, 10:01:26 AM
The Scion guy definitely did sell Corollas over Scions, as the end of the Scion story indicated :lol:
I think the nightmare of the mainstream dealership is overblown. I could see something like a Mitsubishi dealer being hell, but a Toyota dealership in a good neighborhood? As long as the service department is on the up and up I don't see the issue.
I think a lot of dealerships really improved in the 2000's. Markedly improved dealership experience among all brands made stuff like Saturn redundant.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 19, 2018, 08:58:16 AM
You are grasping at straws. Scion doesn't exist anymore, so you'd be taking your FR-S to a Toyota dealership. Subaru is a run of the mill mainstream dealer like Toyota. The idea that the FR-S and BRZ have different dealership experiences is ridiculous.
Not grasping at straws, I was clearly talking about when Scion still existed.
Doesn't matter... Scion dealership = a kiosk in a Toyota dealership. You are acting like Subaru is Bentley
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 21, 2018, 05:36:10 AM
Doesn't matter... Scion dealership = a kiosk in a Toyota dealership. You are acting like Subaru is Bentley
Well, I can't refute that because I've only been to one Scion dealership and I don't remember if it was also a Toyota dealership, but it probably was.
Doesn't change the overall argument though.
There weren't any standalone Scion dealerships.
Quote from: 2o6 on February 21, 2018, 07:54:07 AM
There weren't any standalone Scion dealerships.
Okay, so you got me on one minor thing. Woohoo.
That was the whole thing actually. The dealership experience between Scion and Subaru is the same. Your obsession with brands is completely irrational
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 21, 2018, 09:28:50 AM
That was the whole thing actually. The dealership experience between Scion and Subaru is the same. Your obsession with brands is completely irrational
This.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 21, 2018, 09:28:50 AM
That was the whole thing actually. The dealership experience between Scion and Subaru is the same. Your obsession with brands is completely irrational
That certainly isn't the case between Toyota and Subaru, based on my experience.
Quote from: Raza on February 27, 2018, 04:21:40 PM
That certainly isn't the case between Toyota and Subaru, based on my experience.
When did you own a Toyota? Or a Subaru?
Quote from: cawimmer430 on February 17, 2018, 12:16:22 PM
What's my image if I were to drive this stunning piece of 1970s American engineering and quality design? :praise:
(https://s18.postimg.org/kjs0efi15/1974_Dodge_Monaco.jpg)
certifiable crazy :nutty:
BTW I wouldn't have bought an FR-S but now that they have the ALL NEW Toyota 86 I'd consider one.
If I ever bought new cars.
Nah, nevermind- it's a Subaru so I'd just buy that.
https://www.toyota.com/86/
https://www.autotrader.com/car-reviews/2016-scion-fr-s-vs-2017-toyota-86-whats-the-difference-258124
Quote from: giant_mtb on February 27, 2018, 07:54:12 PM
When did you own a Toyota? Or a Subaru?
I've shopped for both. You don't have to own one to experience the dealership.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on February 28, 2018, 08:17:46 AM
BTW I wouldn't have bought an FR-S but now that they have the ALL NEW Toyota 86 I'd consider one.
If I ever bought new cars.
Nah, nevermind- it's a Subaru so I'd just buy that.
https://www.toyota.com/86/
https://www.autotrader.com/car-reviews/2016-scion-fr-s-vs-2017-toyota-86-whats-the-difference-258124
Lol what's wrong with you dude? Why do you stay up all night worried about image, bro? Who cares if something has a badge that worked hard to associate itself with backwards hat wearing white teenagers, bruh? IF YOU THINK ABOUT IMAGE EVER YOU ARE A MARKETING SLAVE! I don't care about image. Get on my level. Everyone knows image doesn't matter. If you care about anything a little less than I do, you're callous and clueless and oblivious. If you care about anything slightly more than I do, it literally consumes your every thought until you're paralyzed because you care about it so much!
Damn, definitely triggered. My bad man.
Maybe you just found a bad Toyota dealer and a good Subaru dealer :huh: In any case, still grasping at straws.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on March 02, 2018, 06:13:02 AM
Damn, definitely triggered. My bad man.
Maybe you just found a bad Toyota dealer and a good Subaru dealer :huh: In any case, still grasping at straws.
Maybe that's the case. Image still matters. That's why companies spend billions in advertising and cultivating their image.
It's not being triggered when you act like this all the time, in every thread. It's being fed up. Put your money where your mouth is and trade your luxury branded Nissan in for a minivan, if you really feel like image isn't a big deal to you. Until then, this argument is circular, tiring, and annoying. If you don't like that I'm aware of how image affects people and you remain in a world of willful ignorance about your own image hang ups, just skip my posts whenever the issue comes up. If you want to keep filling the internet with this pointless argument, then keep going. As I've said before, I'm not going to apologize for accepting something that everyone wishes to fool themselves over.
Maybe if you had stronger examples I would be more on your side. Comparing a BRZ and FRS when they're 95% the same car is fucking silly.
Also having worked at several multi-brand dealerships, all the salesman would easily sell you a Cruze, Taurus, Elantra, Sierra, or whatever the fuck you wanted (or thought they could push you in). That has nothing to do with brand at all. No one buying a new car really gives a shit.
I am nominating this thread for "Thread with the most boring twist into discussion 2018¨. One of our greatest hits for sure.
Real life, if you are doing it right, is very interesting. I don't have much appetite or bandwidth to fantasize over exotics and the like that have no relevance to my life or bank account.
Plus all business is very interesting. The whole process of selling/buying a car is pretty intricate. There's a lot to talk about.
Quote from: Raza on March 02, 2018, 05:21:36 AM
I've shopped for both. You don't have to own one to experience the dealership.
Fair enough!