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As most of you know, I am looking for a "new" used car to house my growing equipment and ever longer distances to clients. The BMW just isn't cutting it anymore. It's not a very fuel efficient car (8/9 L per 100 km is a JOKE in this day and age for such a car) and it's gotten very small as of late. The trunk is completely full with my equipment and when I don't have everything on board there is zero space for rear passengers due to the lack of legroom (whoops, leg amputees can ride with me anytime!). And for many shoots I've found out that I often need to transport people (models etc.) with me. I need space. And lots of it.

That means I definitely need a wagon and a diesel. I also want something comfortable for those long stretches of roads. My first choice is the superb Skoda Superb Combi. Great value for money, reliable, beautiful design, comfortable and very spacious. There really isn't another car that can rival it in terms of these qualities unless you go to the A4/C/3er class and they're a bit more expensive and smaller inside than the Superb. I'm looking at the Skoda Superb Combi 2.0 TDI (140-hp) DSG, preferably in Elegance trim (photos below). I plan on buying a used model if possible.

(http://img2.netcarshow.com/Skoda-Superb_Combi_2010_1024x768_wallpaper_1a.jpg)

(http://img2.netcarshow.com/Skoda-Superb_Combi_2010_1024x768_wallpaper_2c.jpg)

(http://img2.netcarshow.com/Skoda-Superb_Combi_2010_1024x768_wallpaper_55.jpg)

(http://img2.netcarshow.com/Skoda-Superb_Combi_2010_1024x768_wallpaper_59.jpg)

(http://img2.netcarshow.com/Skoda-Superb_Combi_2010_1024x768_wallpaper_60.jpg)

(http://img2.netcarshow.com/Skoda-Superb_Combi_2010_1024x768_wallpaper_65.jpg)



Other considerations (all used/second hand):

Citroen C5 Break 2.0 HDI Automatic
Volkswagen Passat 2.0 TDI Variant DSG
Mercedes C-Class (S204) T-Modell C200 CDI / C220 CDI Automatic
Audi A4 Avant 2.0 TDI FWD/Quattro DSG
1979 Dodge Diplomat Station Wagon <----  :thumbsup:

The Japanese and Koreans don't offer anything that appeals to me in terms of design, interior space and power plant options.


I visited an Audi/VW/Seat/Skoda dealership in Munich today but they had no Superbs in stock. The Superb sedan is hardly bought - everyone wants the wagon. They had ZERO used Superb Combis on their lot as well. In fact finding a used Superb online is also difficult. Owners apparently love them so much (that's also the impression I get from visiting a few Skoda forums). The salesman tried getting me interested in a leasing deal instead. Not interested in that (at the moment).

In the meantine I checked out the Skoda Yeti and the Skoda Roomster. The Yeti and Roomster were surprisingly "small inside" in terms of trunk space. I wasn't impressed and those cars certainly cannot haul all my equipment around. I also didn't like the driving position in those cars. They felt like "SEMI-SUVs" - just weird.

I also took the time to examine the new Passat station wagon and although the Superb rides on the Passat platform, the Passat seems to be a bit smaller inside. I need to check the technical details to be absolutely sure though.

Updates will follow.  :ohyeah:

I looked at Superbs recently too. This model is not out yet very long, so it's hard to find. Passats on the other hand... I looked at C-Class T-Modells too, but honestly, the cargo bay is a joke (same for the A4 and the 3er). You are better of with a B-Class in that regard if you want to carry high stuff such as bikes.

The Mondeo is nice too (and cheap). What about an S-Max? We have some in the company fleet and it's quite nice for what it is... What about a "Junge Sterne" E-Wagon? Recent 220 CDIs are getting below 30k now... (still more expensive than the others). Used Insignia wagon?

Quote from: cawimmer430 on October 14, 2011, 10:02:47 AM
The salesman tried getting me interested in a leasing deal instead. Not interested in that (at the moment).

Is your photography entrepreneurship officially registered as a business? If so leasing may be a good option.

You're going to be driving around with models?

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/71/Cadillac_DeVille_Convertible_1965-1968.jpg/640px-Cadillac_DeVille_Convertible_1965-1968.jpg)

You know you want to. You don't stop talking about it. Time to do it.

Quote from: Autobahn on October 14, 2011, 10:16:20 AM
I looked at Superbs recently too. This model is not out yet very long, so it's hard to find. Passats on the other hand... I looked at C-Class T-Modells too, but honestly, the cargo bay is a joke (same for the A4 and the 3er). You are better of with a B-Class in that regard if you want to carry high stuff such as bikes.

The Mondeo is nice too (and cheap). What about an S-Max? We have some in the company fleet and it's quite nice for what it is... What about a "Junge Sterne" E-Wagon? Recent 220 CDIs are getting below 30k now... (still more expensive than the others). Used Insignia wagon?

I'm not to gung-ho on a C-Class/A4 since they're much smaller than the Superb inside. They're simply a consideration at the moment but pretty much down on the list. Not crazy about the Ford Mondeo to be honest. My parents neighbor in M?hldorf has the new model and while it is a nice car, I am just not that crazy about it.

The Superb and Citroen C5 are my top choices for now with the Passat a distant third place. I want an automatic transmission since it's more comfortable and the DSG from VWAG is quite impressive.

I don't really want a van like the Ford C/S-Max either. I do place a bit of emphasis on the driving experience and I just don't like MPVs or vans that much. The Superb is still a sedan and by most accounts is also somewhat sporty despite its comfort-biased setup (good steering feedback usw.).

Quote from: Galaxy on October 14, 2011, 10:21:11 AM
Is your photography entrepreneurship officially registered as a business? If so leasing may not be a good option.

At the moment no. I'm registering it on January 1, 2012 (I want to avoid all the paperwork for the last three months of this year and start fresh in 2012).

Why would leasing be a bad option in this case? Fill me in please! :lol:

Quote from: Vinsanity on October 14, 2011, 10:22:22 AM
You're going to be driving around with models?

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/71/Cadillac_DeVille_Convertible_1965-1968.jpg/640px-Cadillac_DeVille_Convertible_1965-1968.jpg)

You know you want to. You don't stop talking about it. Time to do it.

Mmmmmm....  :wub:

If only the bonnet was the trunk - then all my stuff would fit inside.  :lol:

Quote from: cawimmer430 on October 14, 2011, 10:27:53 AM

Why would leasing be a bad option in this case? Fill me in please! :lol:

:facepalm:

I think I originally wanted to post "may not be a bad option", and then later typed "good" without realizing I just wrote the opposite of what I wanted to say.

Quote from: Galaxy on October 14, 2011, 10:30:24 AM
:facepalm:

I think I originally wanted to post "may not be a bad option", and then later typed "good" without realizing I just wrote the opposite of what I wanted to say.

I was wondering. :lol:

Like I said, I may consider leasing later on, but at the moment I am looking for a used model. I may drive down to M?hldorf next week because we have a very good Skoda/Renault dealership there who may be able to help me locate my dream car. I've seen a few Superbs on their lot the last time I was there.

I may even consider the 170-hp TDI with DSG if that's the only model available.  :praise:

The Superb should be roomier on the inside than the Passat; it's on a stretched Passat platform, if memory serves.

Get the Superb. 

The Euro is strong right now. Buy one of our land yachts for cheap. Spend the savings on gasoline.

C'mon, put your money where your mouth is. Skoda == zero H&H.

Here: ? 3,500 buys you a 1985 Lincoln Town Car "Miami Vice."

http://www.autoscout24.de/Details.aspx?id=bs1p2gasdyv4


? 4,999 gets you a 1976 Lincoln Mark IV coup? with classy vinyl roof. Converted to LPG.

http://www.autoscout24.de/Details.aspx?id=lt4yrijchgwq



Oh! 1959 Cadillac Deville Series 62 coup? 6.4. ? 39,000 though.

http://www.autoscout24.de/Details.aspx?id=cumswxite3at

Hmm looks a bit lowered though, also I am not sure if the interior is original. The cloth looks almost modern.

Buy what you want to buy Wimmer. There is no convincing you otherwise.

Now's your chance! Think of all the History & Heritage & Hookers!

(http://www.stationwagon.com/gallery/pictures/1976_Chevy_Caprice.jpg)

Golf Plus? A 1.4TSI or some sort of diesel Golf Plus sounds like a good idea.

(http://autocarseries.com/images/2011-Citroen-C5-Review-Autocarseries.com_.jpg)

Get the C5

I know the interior probably isn't cheap, but it looks it.

Quote from: 68_427 on October 14, 2011, 01:28:01 PM
I know the interior probably isn't cheap, but it looks it.

What!?

Quote from: 68_427 on October 14, 2011, 01:28:01 PM
I know the interior probably isn't cheap, but it looks it.

It's a Citroen, it probably is cheap. 

Quote from: cawimmer430 on October 14, 2011, 10:26:02 AM
I'm not to gung-ho on a C-Class/A4 since they're much smaller than the Superb inside. They're simply a consideration at the moment but pretty much down on the list. Not crazy about the Ford Mondeo to be honest. My parents neighbor in M?hldorf has the new model and while it is a nice car, I am just not that crazy about it.

The Superb and Citroen C5 are my top choices for now with the Passat a distant third place. I want an automatic transmission since it's more comfortable and the DSG from VWAG is quite impressive.

I don't really want a van like the Ford C/S-Max either. I do place a bit of emphasis on the driving experience and I just don't like MPVs or vans that much. The Superb is still a sedan and by most accounts is also somewhat sporty despite its comfort-biased setup (good steering feedback usw.).

Last generation diesel E-estate?

Get an old E-Class diesel wagon and make your wet dreams come true.

Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on October 14, 2011, 06:23:55 PM
Get an old E-Class diesel wagon and make your wet dreams come true.

:hesaid:

Quote from: mzziaz on October 14, 2011, 01:18:46 PM
(http://autocarseries.com/images/2011-Citroen-C5-Review-Autocarseries.com_.jpg)

Get the C5

There is absolutely nothing appealing about the way that looks.

How about a used VW Touran? They (& MPVs in general) have a bit more vertical space than estate cars.

Wimmer, if you get anything other than an uber H&H car, complete with documented crappy CR reviews, then you are required to STFU about H&H and CR.


Forever, or until you put your money where your mouth is. Seriously.

Quote from: 68_427 on October 14, 2011, 01:28:01 PM
I know the interior probably isn't cheap, but it looks it.

Quote from: 2o6 on October 14, 2011, 01:33:14 PM
What!?

I think I see what he's getting at: that you can have really high-quality gray plastics, but if you put them all together they still look like a bunch of gray plastic.

Quote from: ifcar on October 14, 2011, 08:54:32 PM
I think I see what he's getting at: that you can have really high-quality gray plastics, but if you put them all together they still look like a bunch of gray plastic.

Exactly what I'm talking about.

Good luck trying to find a Superb Estate........... there are certainly very few available in the UK. I have a friend who ordered a new one back in February and he is still waiting for his!

Is an Octavia really not big enough inside? There should be far more of those available, and the ones I have driven have really impressed me.........

I'd be wary of the Passat. The very latest ones (since late 2010) whilst quite competent are particularly utterly dull. Earlier ones with the 2.0 TDI engine were as rough as hell, and I know far too many people who had expensive engine failures (though maybe these have been fixed now).

I'd look seriously at leasing........ paying a fixed cost per month for the use of a depreciating asset seems like not such a bad deal to me! 

Quote from: Raza  on October 14, 2011, 11:14:55 AM
The Superb should be roomier on the inside than the Passat; it's on a stretched Passat platform, if memory serves.

Get the Superb. 

I have the brochure with me and the specs are amazing. The cargo space this car offers is unmatched by any other wagon for that price. The next best thing is an MB E-Class T-Modell / Audi A6 Avant / BMW 5er Touring but they're in a higher class all together.

Quote from: Laconian on October 14, 2011, 11:19:59 AM
The Euro is strong right now. Buy one of our land yachts for cheap. Spend the savings on gasoline.

C'mon, put your money where your mouth is. Skoda == zero H&H.

Skoda has a lot of H&H actually. Man, the American education system must suck if you don't know that!  :evildude:

Quote from: Speed_Racer on October 14, 2011, 01:04:45 PM
Now's your chance! Think of all the History & Heritage & Hookers!

(http://www.stationwagon.com/gallery/pictures/1976_Chevy_Caprice.jpg)

Mmmmm...1976 Chevy Caprice Wagon! SO HOT!  :wub:

Quote from: 2o6 on October 14, 2011, 01:12:02 PM
Golf Plus? A 1.4TSI or some sort of diesel Golf Plus sounds like a good idea.

I want a station wagon because of its "car-like driving qualities". Plus the Golf Plus isn't that large inside in terms of cargo space. I need something where I can fit my two large light suitcases and batteries plus my four 50 x 50 cm softboxes and other equipment and also have space for rear passengers in emergencies. That's not possible with a Golf Plus because I'd have to enlarge the cargo space by folding down the rear seats. The Superb gives me leeway in this regard since its cargo space is huge and there's still space for rear passengers.

The 1.4 TSI is a great engine but I'm opting for a diesel because of the great combination of performance and gas mileage. The 140-hp 2.0 TDI with common-rail (not unit-injector) is the engine to have IMO.

Quote from: mzziaz on October 14, 2011, 01:18:46 PM
Get the C5

Second on my list!  :praise:

Been reading the Citroen forums and people are generally happy with them. Reliable, extremely comfortable and good diesel engines to. Cargo space isn't as large as the Superb though. I actually may end up slotting the Passat above it due to its larger cargo space.

Quote from: Submariner on October 14, 2011, 04:58:16 PM
Last generation diesel E-estate?

Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on October 14, 2011, 06:23:55 PM
Get an old E-Class diesel wagon and make your wet dreams come true.

I wouldn't mind an E-Class diesel estate but I have to be careful. SOZIALNEID (social jealousy) - it's shitty that we have this problem in Germany. If I arrive at clients with a newer Mercedes E-Class (S211/S212) they might form negative opinions about me. Also, I am still young and that doesn't mix to well with a high-end Mercedes, which the E-Class is in Europe.

If I do opt for an E-Class, it should be a classic S123.  :praise:

(http://www.carsbase.com/photo/Mercedes_Benz-E_Class_Estate_S123_mp35_pic_76663.jpg)

Quote from: Morris Minor on October 14, 2011, 07:29:20 PM
How about a used VW Touran? They (& MPVs in general) have a bit more vertical space than estate cars.

No MPVs.  ;)

I rode in a Volkswagen Touran recently and wasn't impressed. The ride is hard and harsh. the Cross Touran (AWD) is even worse according to the owner of the Touran, who was looking at one before settling on the regular Touran.

The Superb is just the best choice. Large cargo space even without folding down the rear seats.

Quote from: Rupert on October 14, 2011, 08:40:43 PM
Wimmer, if you get anything other than an uber H&H car, complete with documented crappy CR reviews, then you are required to STFU about H&H and CR.


Forever, or until you put your money where your mouth is. Seriously.

:rolleyes:

I am buying a car based on my BUSINESS NEEDS, not PERSONAL.

My business needs dictate lots of interior space for my equipment and extra space for passengers and a FWD Skoda Superb Combi is that car. And it's also great value for money, which is important to me at the moment.

Quote from: Colin on October 15, 2011, 12:22:34 AM
Good luck trying to find a Superb Estate........... there are certainly very few available in the UK. I have a friend who ordered a new one back in February and he is still waiting for his!

They're in high demand here to. It'll be hard finding a good used one with the 140-hp TDI and the color I want: Capuccino Beige Metallic (fits in with my upcoming revised website colors!).

Quote from: Colin on October 15, 2011, 12:22:34 AMIs an Octavia really not big enough inside? There should be far more of those available, and the ones I have driven have really impressed me.........

They had an Octavia at the dealership. It's to small for my needs, honest. The Superb Combi is where it's at.  :ohyeah:

Quote from: Colin on October 15, 2011, 12:22:34 AMI'd be wary of the Passat. The very latest ones (since late 2010) whilst quite competent are particularly utterly dull. Earlier ones with the 2.0 TDI engine were as rough as hell, and I know far too many people who had expensive engine failures (though maybe these have been fixed now).

I actually like the new Passat from a styling POV. It's nothing exciting but it's elegant and handsome in an extremely conservative sort of way.

The early 2.0 TDI engines used unit-injector technology. The new 2.0 TDI uses common-rail which is much smoother, quieter and more agile as well.  :ohyeah:

Quote from: Colin on October 15, 2011, 12:22:34 AMI'd look seriously at leasing........ paying a fixed cost per month for the use of a depreciating asset seems like not such a bad deal to me! 

Like I said, if I can't find a good used one, then leasing is the answer!  :cheers:

Oh, and Skoda has H&H.  :devil:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0koda_Auto


They started out producing guns. I'm surprised you gun-crazy Americans don't know this fact.  :devil:

And they produced some interesting cars during the Communist times like the rear-engined 110R famous sports car (at least in Europe).

THIS WOULD BE THE IDEAL STATION WAGON FOR ME (but with a more economical engine).  :praise:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7d/Ford_Country_Squire_front.jpg/800px-Ford_Country_Squire_front.jpg)

Style? Check.
Class? You bet!
Cargo space? Loads!
Comfort! Yep!

And best of all, all the '80s cops and taxi drivers drove them! It's like an icon and symbol of the 1980s to me.  :praise:

And apparently they were officially sold in Germany at one point. I have an Autobild Klassik magazine in front of me right now that claims this, but I can't find any information online that backs up this claim.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on October 15, 2011, 01:21:53 AM
:rolleyes:

I am buying a car based on my BUSINESS NEEDS, not PERSONAL.

My business needs dictate lots of interior space for my equipment and extra space for passengers and a FWD Skoda Superb Combi is that car. And it's also great value for money, which is important to me at the moment.

LOL. THEN STFU ABOUT H&h AND CR IF YOU CAN'T MAN UP AND FOLLOW YOUR OWN ADVICE

Quote from: Rupert on October 15, 2011, 03:08:38 AM
LOL. THEN STFU ABOUT H&h AND CR IF YOU CAN'T MAN UP AND FOLLOW YOUR OWN ADVICE

I'm looking for a normal station wagon with lots of cabin and trunk space that is also efficient and comfortable. The Superb fits that description and it happens to be great value to.

I'm not looking for a luxury car.  :rolleyes:

Quote from: Morris Minor on October 14, 2011, 07:29:20 PM
How about a used VW Touran? They (& MPVs in general) have a bit more vertical space than estate cars.

The problem with most vans and SUVs is that they have less space then most wagons if the rear seats are up. Granted he could get something like a Chrysler Voyager and always leave out the rear bench.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on October 15, 2011, 01:21:53 AM
:rolleyes:

I am buying a car based on my BUSINESS NEEDS, not PERSONAL.

My business needs dictate lots of interior space for my equipment and extra space for passengers and a FWD Skoda Superb Combi is that car. And it's also great value for money, which is important to me at the moment.

Gee, this sounds like the reason Americans buy Toyotas.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on October 15, 2011, 01:21:53 AM
:rolleyes:

I am buying a car based on my BUSINESS NEEDS, not PERSONAL.

My business needs dictate lots of interior space for my equipment and extra space for passengers and a FWD Skoda Superb Combi is that car. And it's also great value for money, which is important to me at the moment.

So, it's OK for you to buy a car without H&H because of your needs when you trash others for doing the same? :facepalm:

Wimmer, I think you are definitely blowing any credibility you may have here with that "business needs, not personal" argument. It?s been years of talking luxury and H&H (arguments that I have some empathy with). So, now, it?s the time to man up. If you can afford a new Skoda, you can afford an old Merc.

Left field:


Accord Wagon.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on October 15, 2011, 01:16:40 AM
I wouldn't mind an E-Class diesel estate but I have to be careful. SOZIALNEID (social jealousy) - it's shitty that we have this problem in Germany. If I arrive at clients with a newer Mercedes E-Class (S211/S212) they might form negative opinions about me. Also, I am still young and that doesn't mix to well with a high-end Mercedes, which the E-Class is in Europe.

Oh, for fuck's sake. Between H&H and now, sozialneid (which actually appear to be two opposing mentalities), I'm actually kind of hoping that all these supposed issues are all just in your head. Because if they're true, then not only is Germany a really shitty place to own a car, but there are some really fucked up socioeconomic mentality issues lurking in people's minds over there.

You buy Japanese? You have no soul. Do you not know what your country has done for you?

You buy German? You better buy upscale, those lower cars are for poor people.

You buy a Mercedes, BMW or Audi? Do you think you're better than me or something? I don't want your services.

Any other car from Europe? Don't drive so much, they'll break. If they break, you drove too much and it's your fault.

Don't even consider the Koreans, they are inferior to everyone in every way.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on October 15, 2011, 03:43:23 AM
I'm looking for a normal station wagon with lots of cabin and trunk space that is also efficient and comfortable. The Superb fits that description and it happens to be great value to.

I'm not looking for a luxury car.  :rolleyes:

Doesn't matter. Any shred of credibility you had is now gone. Any further discussions of H&H or Consumer Reports are 100% trolling on your part, so don't fucking do it.

Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on October 15, 2011, 10:23:54 AM
Wimmer, I think you are definitely blowing any credibility you may have here with that "business needs, not personal" argument. It?s been years of talking luxury and H&H (arguments that I have some empathy with). So, now, it?s the time to man up. If you can afford a new Skoda, you can afford an old Merc.

:hesaid:

Think about security; you have expensive, hard to replace gear, on which your livelihood depends. Having it on display in a four-door estate car would be tempting for thieves. You might want to think about a cargo cover, or tinting the windows, or a locked van.

Quote from: Morris Minor on October 17, 2011, 07:38:37 AM
Think about security; you have expensive, hard to replace gear, on which your livelihood depends. Having it on display in a four-door estate car would be tempting for thieves. You might want to think about a cargo cover, or tinting the windows, or a locked van.

The Superb wagon has a cargo cover in all but the most basic (Active) trim level.


(http://static.rp-online.de/layout/showbilder/47524-pressemappen_foto_grosst.jpg)

Why no manual, Wimsy?

Quote from: CALL_911 on October 17, 2011, 09:17:34 AM
Why no manual, Wimsy?

DSG ist besser

Quote from: CALL_911 on October 17, 2011, 09:17:34 AM
Why no manual, Wimsy?

An automatic is just more comfortable. I've gotten lazy over the years and since most of my driving takes place in the city (and some long distance driving) an automatic is just far more appealing.

Quote from: Vinsanity on October 15, 2011, 10:56:28 AM
Oh, for fuck's sake. Between H&H and now, sozialneid (which actually appear to be two opposing mentalities), I'm actually kind of hoping that all these supposed issues are all just in your head. Because if they're true, then not only is Germany a really shitty place to own a car, but there are some really fucked up socioeconomic mentality issues lurking in people's minds over there.

:rolleyes:


(http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/3883/bild1521r.jpg)

(http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/323/bild1534.jpg)

(http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/7830/bild1536o.jpg)

(http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/2083/bild1537.jpg)

(http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/6771/bild1538.jpg)

(http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/9525/bild1535.jpg)

We saw this car in the Mercedes dealer in Munich on Saturday... I assume that they will have mopped up all the drool around it by now!

I was rather taken by the SLS pairing of coupe and convertible, though neither was in my preferred choice of colour! (and no, I can't afford either, let alone both!).

I think the Superb is an excellent choice.  Good quality, good reliability, and lots of usable space.  Good choice, however I think a pre-owned W211 E-Class would be a better choice.  Good diesel engines, lots of space, and excellent looks.

I've also seen the new C-class. It really looked great!

Quote from: CJ on October 24, 2011, 08:53:14 AM
I think the Superb is an excellent choice.  Good quality, good reliability, and lots of usable space.  Good choice, however I think a pre-owned W211 E-Class would be a better choice.  Good diesel engines, lots of space, and excellent looks.

Exactly.

But the problem is their availability. Buying new means a long waiting time (more demand than supply/production capabilities). Hardly any on the used car market. Another problem is their size. They're huge cars and they sadly won't fit into my little parking space considering I have neighbors who also park next to me.

I might have to downsize to a Skoda Octavia Combi or Volkswagen Passat Variant, also with the 140-hp TDI and DSG transmission. Right now the BMW is still my ride for a few months to come - and it's barely coping. Shot two models on Sunday who rode with me in the car. Trunk was full and the rear space behind me had my third light suitcase on it. The models barely had space for their own bags containing their clothes. I really need a bigger car!

Oh, Wimmer, just one more poseur.

Ford C-Max

VW Golf Plus

Skoda Roomster

Heck, MB B-class.

Quote from: Rupert on October 25, 2011, 09:32:04 PM
Oh, Wimmer, just one more poseur.

Really?

What part of "CAR FOR MY BUSINESS" don't you understand?

I'm a young guy starting my own business and the last thing I need is arriving in an expensive luxury car because clients will wonder what I am "wasting" my money on. I'm not looking for a luxury car. I'm looking for an affordable and spacious mainstream car.

And if I was looking for a luxury car you damn well know I'd consider something with H&H. Period.

Quote from: 2o6 on October 25, 2011, 09:35:15 PM
Ford C-Max

VW Golf Plus

Skoda Roomster

Heck, MB B-class.

All of them have small trunks that can only be enlarged by folding down the rear seats. I require rear seats and a large flat trunkbed in the back - a wagon is a must.  :ohyeah:

I checked out the Roomster and wasn't impressed with the standard trunk space.

Mercedes G55 AMG

Quote from: Raza  on October 26, 2011, 07:57:41 AM
Mercedes G55 AMG

If Wimmer doesn't get one, then he is no longer allowed to rail about H&H.

Quote from: 2o6 on October 15, 2011, 10:48:22 AM
Left field:


Accord Wagon.

+1

It has a decent diesel, looks great (no ugly grill like our TSX), good drive, and I'm sure used examples will be cheaper.  Sure the tranny kinda sucks in comparison but over all, its not a bad package.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on October 26, 2011, 05:04:04 AM
Really?

What part of "CAR FOR MY BUSINESS" don't you understand?

I'm a young guy starting my own business and the last thing I need is arriving in an expensive luxury car because clients will wonder what I am "wasting" my money on. I'm not looking for a luxury car. I'm looking for an affordable and spacious mainstream car.

And if I was looking for a luxury car you damn well know I'd consider something with H&H. Period.

The part about where you rail against Consumer Reports and insist on H&H for everyone at every turn, when you yourself are basically buying a boring bread box of a CR-mobile. I don't care if it's for your business; you're full of shit and a troll.

Quote from: Rupert on October 26, 2011, 11:58:23 AM
The part about where you rail against Consumer Reports and insist on H&H for everyone at every turn, when you yourself are basically buying a boring bread box of a CR-mobile. I don't care if it's for your business; you're full of shit and a troll.

If I listened to CR then I should be gunning for a boring Toyota.

Skoda uses VOLKSWAGEN ELECTRONICS AND PARTS - which are like what? NOT RECOMMENDED by the American CR. Here in Europe Skoda has a reputation for reliability and VWs aren't bad in that regard either.

What you continually say is based only on what you've heard from other uninformed blowhards. Consumer Reports LIKES Volkswagens.

Quote from: ifcar on October 26, 2011, 12:11:20 PM
What you continually say is based only on what you've heard from other uninformed blowhards. Consumer Reports LIKES Volkswagens.

They do?  :confused:

If you'd ever read anything they'd written before spouting off, you would know that.

Quote from: ifcar on October 26, 2011, 12:12:33 PM
If you'd ever read anything they'd written before spouting off, you would know that.

All I read was: "NOT RECOMMENDED!" :lol:

Check mark means recommended:

(http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/3580/111odyssey.jpg)

Now will you either read up on what they've said or stop bringing it up?

So basically only the Golf, some Jettas and the Tiguan of all cars are recommended. Wow.

And the Passat isn't? Guess it needs a V8.  :devil:

Quote from: cawimmer430 on October 26, 2011, 12:20:25 PM
So basically only the Golf, some Jettas and the Tiguan of all cars are recommended. Wow.

And the Passat isn't? Guess it needs a V8.  :devil:

The Passat, Beetle and Routan haven't even been road tested yet. :facepalm:

Quote from: cawimmer430 on October 26, 2011, 05:04:04 AM
Really?

What part of "CAR FOR MY BUSINESS" don't you understand?

I'm a young guy starting my own business and the last thing I need is arriving in an expensive luxury car because clients will wonder what I am "wasting" my money on. I'm not looking for a luxury car. I'm looking for an affordable and spacious mainstream car.

And if I was looking for a luxury car you damn well know I'd consider something with H&H. Period.

Hmmm.... I?ve never found driving a luxury car a DISadvantage in business. It depends on how you carry yourself about it. Most clients won?t assume you waste money but that you are successful at what you do. It actually helps me a bit when pricing our services.

I think there is a saying about driving the car that reflects the job you want rather than the job you have.

The Germans have that Klassenneid thing going on.

Quote from: Laconian on October 27, 2011, 02:00:41 AM
The Germans have that Klassenneid thing going on.

At least wims believes so  ;)

Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on October 26, 2011, 05:15:08 PM
Hmmm.... I?ve never found driving a luxury car a DISadvantage in business. It depends on how you carry yourself about it. Most clients won?t assume you waste money but that you are successful at what you do. It actually helps me a bit when pricing our services.

I think there is a saying about driving the car that reflects the job you want rather than the job you have.

Maybe later when I am older and my business is truly successful, then I can upgrade to an E-Class wagon for example.

For now, I want to play it safe and get a normal mainstream wagon that doesn't make me come across as a snob/money waster, especially when I am just starting a new business.

Quote from: Laconian on October 27, 2011, 02:00:41 AM
The Germans have that Klassenneid thing going on.

S O Z I A L N E I D

Quote from: cawimmer430 on October 27, 2011, 04:38:42 AM
Maybe later when I am older and my business is truly successful, then I can upgrade to an E-Class wagon for example.

For now, I want to play it safe and get a normal mainstream wagon that doesn't make me come across as a snob/money waster, especially when I am just starting a new business.



S O Z I A L N E I D

I believe your analysis is wrong. First of all I believe the effects of sozialneid is less than you think. Secondly, MB doesn't IMO have as much of a snob image as you pretend, especially in Europe. I think a used E-class would be perfectly acceptable for all potential customers, even in the rural parts of Southern Germany.

Could it rather be that you prefer the, gasp, ease and reliability of a newish Skoda over an older MB, even if the latter is brimming with H&H? Dare I say that you might even be proving the point of the wretched CONSUMER REPORTS with your own purchase?  :mask:

Quote from: mzziaz on October 27, 2011, 06:07:46 AMI believe your analysis is wrong. First of all I believe the effects of sozialneid is less than you think. Secondly, MB doesn't IMO have as much of a snob image as you pretend, especially in Europe. I think a used E-class would be perfectly acceptable for all potential customers, even in the rural parts of Southern Germany.

Sozialneid is pretty strong in Bavaria.

I think it is simply wrong for me at the moment to show up somewhere in a large BMW, Audi or Mercedes. I'm starting a new business and the last thing I need is to give an impression that the money I earn is being used to buy an expensive luxury car, especially since I have to justify my high prices somehow through the quality of my work. I don't want to make people think "Oh, he's driving a Benz, well then maybe I can get away with paying less since he obviously makes a lot of money!".

AGAIN: THIS IS A CAR FOR MY BUSINESS, NOT FOR MY PERSONAL PLEASURE AND EMOTIONAL DESIRES.

Quote from: mzziaz on October 27, 2011, 06:07:46 AMCould it rather be that you prefer the, gasp, ease and reliability of a newish Skoda over an older MB, even if the latter is brimming with H&H? Dare I say that you might even be proving the point of the wretched CONSUMER REPORTS with your own purchase?  :mask:

I prefer the Skoda/VW at the moment solely because of the image it portrays: a lot of car for little money, lots of cabin space, good TDI-DSG combination and the added reliability reputation is simply an added bonus. It's a normal and unremarkable car that also looks good, drives nicely and has the space/comfort characteristics I am looking for.

I have no fear of buying a used S211 E-Class either. My family used to have a 2002 MB E320 W211 and it never let us down.

I wouldn't even mind an S210 estate, I always liked those.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on October 27, 2011, 06:16:51 AM
Sozialneid is pretty strong in Bavaria.

I think it is simply wrong for me at the moment to show up somewhere in a large BMW, Audi or Mercedes. I'm starting a new business and the last thing I need is to give an impression that the money I earn is being used to buy an expensive luxury car, especially since I have to justify my high prices somehow through the quality of my work. I don't want to make people think "Oh, he's driving a Benz, well then maybe I can get away with paying less since he obviously makes a lot of money!".

AGAIN: THIS IS A CAR FOR MY BUSINESS, NOT FOR MY PERSONAL PLEASURE AND EMOTIONAL DESIRES.



I prefer the Skoda/VW at the moment solely because of the image it portrays: a lot of car for little money, lots of cabin space, good TDI-DSG combination and the added reliability reputation is simply an added bonus. It's a normal and unremarkable car that also looks good, drives nicely and has the space/comfort characteristics I am looking for.

I have no fear of buying a used S211 E-Class either. My family used to have a 2002 MB E320 W211 and it never let us down.

I wouldn't even mind an S210 estate, I always liked those.

So CONSUMER REPORTS > HISTORY & HERITAGE, after all?

Son, I am disappoint

Quote from: mzziaz on October 27, 2011, 06:39:59 AM
So CONSUMER REPORTS > HISTORY & HERITAGE, after all?

Son, I am disappoint

I like the Skoda offerings from a price/design/interior+trunk space point of view. Those features draw me to the brand (or a used VW Passat Variant).

Their reputation for reliability is an added bonus. Then again I have no qualms about buying a car from an "unreliable manufacturer" (courtesy of CR) like Citroen, Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Renault, Fiat etc.

I hear the VW DSG transmission causes some problems. Shit. Maybe I should consider a Toyota Avensis!  :zzz:

Consumer Reports has written nothing about any Citroen, Renault or Fiat in the last 20 years. Are you looking at 1980s models?

Quote from: cawimmer430 on October 27, 2011, 06:16:51 AM
Sozialneid is pretty strong in Bavaria.

I think it is simply wrong for me at the moment to show up somewhere in a large BMW, Audi or Mercedes. I'm starting a new business and the last thing I need is to give an impression that the money I earn is being used to buy an expensive luxury car, especially since I have to justify my high prices somehow through the quality of my work. I don't want to make people think "Oh, he's driving a Benz, well then maybe I can get away with paying less since he obviously makes a lot of money!".

General thought against buying a luxury car for business is "Oh, this guy is overcharging me, look how nice a car he drives."

After Wimmer buys his Skoda, can we petition to ban him if he ever brings up H+H or Consumer Reports up ever again?

We can just fully ignore his dumb poseur ass. He'll go away.

Quote from: Raza  on October 27, 2011, 07:56:19 AM
General thought against buying a luxury car for business is "Oh, this guy is overcharging me, look how nice a car he drives."

That's pretty much why I don't want a luxury car as my business car, even a stripper E-Class.

Maybe in the future when I have made a name for myself (if that ever happens), but not now.

Quote from: CALL_911 on October 27, 2011, 08:51:50 AM
After Wimmer buys his Skoda, can we petition to ban him if he ever brings up H+H or Consumer Reports up ever again?

Skoda has H&H. Lots of it.

Quote from: Rupert on October 27, 2011, 09:46:14 AM
We can just fully ignore his dumb poseur ass. He'll go away.

Screw you.

Wimmer is a poseur; Wimmer is a poseur; Wimmer is a poseur; Wimmer is a poseur; Wimmer is a poseur; Wimmer is a poseur; Wimmer is a poseur; Wimmer is a poseur; Wimmer is a poseur; Wimmer is a poseur; Wimmer is a poseur; Wimmer is a poseur...

Quote from: Rupert on October 27, 2011, 12:54:25 PM
Wimmer is a poseur; Wimmer is a poseur; Wimmer is a poseur; Wimmer is a poseur; Wimmer is a poseur; Wimmer is a poseur; Wimmer is a poseur; Wimmer is a poseur; Wimmer is a poseur; Wimmer is a poseur; Wimmer is a poseur; Wimmer is a poseur...

Yeah, I should be driving a 130i instead of a 118i!

You should be driving not-your-sister's car.

Quote from: Rupert on October 27, 2011, 12:59:25 PM
You should be driving not-your-sister's car.

It's practically mine now since she drives an AUDI RS4 SEDAN in Switzerland (her boyfriends car).

You think that after driving an RS4 she'd want to go back to a 118i? :lol:

You didn't pay for it with your own money + your name not on the title = not your car.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on October 27, 2011, 12:47:22 PM
Skoda has H&H. Lots of it.

By that standard -- did something interesting once a long time ago -- Toyota has lots of H&H.

Quote from: Rupert on October 27, 2011, 12:59:25 PM
You should be driving not-your-sister's car.

Okay, that's enough. Now you're getting a bit carried away with your usual inane anti-rich kid tirades. That has nothing to do with the situation at hand.

But, I maintain, LOL@Wimsy.

Rich kid? No, he's just all talk and no action.

I don't understand this "sozialneid" thing when you already show up to clients' places in a BMW...

For someone who goes on and on about how everyone should buy cars with H&H it's sad that you're making tons of excuses not to buy an MB and instead make a purchase based on reliability and value, like the rest of normal car shoppers.

Wimmer can't put his money where his mouth is.

This is the exact reason people buy a Toyota Camry, Wimmer.  For business needs, A to B transportation, and a requirement for a reliable, spacious vehicle.  The editors of Consumer Reports happen to agree with the consumer in that the Camry offers all of the previously mentioned attributes, given that they've titled it as a CR Recommended vehicle.  They take real-world data from the consumer, PURCHASE the vehicles with actual money, and see what happens.

Guess what! At the end of the day, it's winners money, so unless he's asking you guys to make payments, you have nothing to add!

Quote from: 2o6 on October 27, 2011, 04:44:53 PM
Guess what! At the end of the day, it's winners money, so unless he's asking you guys to make payments, you have nothing to add!

Then he should stop trolling every other fucking thread about H&H, Consumer Reports and how Toyota sucks.

Wow this thread turned really ugly.

Wimmer:

The Skoda looks fine. Just make sure your gear is covered for reasons already stated.

I would tone down on the trolling though. It's funny in small doses, but many, including myself will buy plebeian vehicles for similar purposes as your own. 

If not, you will have to buy yourself a nice Fiat Multipla

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e0/Fiat_Multipla_silver_front.JPG/250px-Fiat_Multipla_silver_front.JPG)

Quote from: Northlands on October 27, 2011, 06:32:37 PM
Wow this thread turned really ugly.

Wimmer:

The Skoda looks fine. Just make sure your gear is covered for reasons already stated.

I would tone down on the trolling though. It's funny in small doses, but many, including myself will buy plebeian vehicles for similar purposes as your own. 

If not, you will have to buy yourself a nice Fiat Multipla

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e0/Fiat_Multipla_silver_front.JPG/250px-Fiat_Multipla_silver_front.JPG)

I want one  :mask:

Quote from: Rupert on October 27, 2011, 01:10:52 PM
You didn't pay for it with your own money + your name not on the title = not your car.

Where did I state that "I bought this car with my own money?"

My sister bought this car but she's not using it. She's working in another country and has no use for this car since public transportation is very good where she lives.

I am currently driving and using this car on a daily basis. It's my daily driver so in the interests of keeping it fucking simple I'm going to say "my car, my car, my car, my fucking car", got that?  :rolleyes:

Quote from: ifcar on October 27, 2011, 01:18:16 PM
By that standard -- did something interesting once a long time ago -- Toyota has lots of H&H.

I've never denied that.

But what does Toyota offer in Europe that looks good, is fun and appealing?

Nothing. The Avensis wagon looks awful.

Quote from: thecarnut on October 27, 2011, 01:42:47 PM
I don't understand this "sozialneid" thing when you already show up to clients' places in a BMW...

A 1-Series isn't a problem in that regard. Many young people or college students drive a 1-Series. They're not that expensive to begin with.

Quote from: thecarnut on October 27, 2011, 01:42:47 PMFor someone who goes on and on about how everyone should buy cars with H&H it's sad that you're making tons of excuses not to buy an MB and instead make a purchase based on reliability and value, like the rest of normal car shoppers.

You clearly have no clue what my point is with history & heritage.

People are free to buy what they like. I simply don't consider Lexus or similar brands to be true luxury brands given that they have no H&H. Go to the Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Porsche and even Volkswagen museums and see what H&H is and what makes those brands so emotionally appealing compared to some poseur shit like Lexus.

I said that a luxury brand needs H&H here in Europe and elsewhere if they want to be taken seriously. I clearly don't understand the North American market but here Hyundai can't sell their Genesis V8 sedan for example because nobody will even take them seriously. Why? No H&H. The brand stands for cheap economy cars, not luxury.

Quote from: thecarnut on October 27, 2011, 01:42:47 PMWimmer can't put his money where his mouth is.

Again, you have no understanding what my needs are the moment.

I'm looking for a normal family wagon that's fuel efficient and roomy and comfortable. Those are my main requirements. The Skoda Superb/Octavia and VW Passat fit those requirements as do the Citroen C5 Break, Renault Laguna Wagon etc. etc. etc.

I don't need a fucking luxury car. Got that? I am not actively looking for a luxury car. So cut this bullshit about me not putting my money where my mouth is. If I were to shop for a luxury car you know damn well what I would consider.

Quote from: Northlands on October 27, 2011, 06:32:37 PM
Wow this thread turned really ugly.

Wimmer:

The Skoda looks fine. Just make sure your gear is covered for reasons already stated.

I would tone down on the trolling though. It's funny in small doses, but many, including myself will buy plebeian vehicles for similar purposes as your own. 

If not, you will have to buy yourself a nice Fiat Multipla

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e0/Fiat_Multipla_silver_front.JPG/250px-Fiat_Multipla_silver_front.JPG)

:ohyeah:

If I were to get a Multipla I'd get the original.  :praise:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/MHV_fiat_multipla_600_01.jpg)

Guys, lay off.  I get where you're coming from, but it's getting a little vicious. 

Wimmer, if you get the Citroen over the Skoda, however, I'll be very disappointed. 

Quote from: Raza  on October 28, 2011, 08:17:10 AM
Wimmer, if you get the Citroen over the Skoda, however, I'll be very disappointed. 

I like the Citroen C5, it's a cool-looking car but I am leaning towards the Skoda Superb/Octavia. I might have to consider the Octavia (or a Passat) since the Superb is a little to big for my parking space sadly.  :frown:

Quote from: cawimmer430 on October 28, 2011, 08:18:53 AM
I like the Citroen C5, it's a cool-looking car but I am leaning towards the Skoda Superb/Octavia. I might have to consider the Octavia (or a Passat) since the Superb is a little to big for my parking space sadly.  :frown:

B5 Passat wagon!  The B6 is a little too hearse-like (though the sedan looks awesome, though still not as good as the B5). 

Quote from: Raza  on October 28, 2011, 08:17:10 AM
Guys, lay off.  I get where you're coming from, but it's getting a little vicious. 

Wimmer, if you get the Citroen over the Skoda, however, I'll be very disappointed. 

GTFO.

You are like Winterkorn's prison bitch.

Citro?n is were it's at.

Quote from: mzziaz on October 28, 2011, 09:59:47 AM
GTFO.

You are like Winterkorn's prison bitch.

Citro?n is were it's at.

You only like it because you're a limey pinko frog. 

Quote from: Raza  on October 28, 2011, 10:06:04 AM
You only like it because you're a limey pinko frog. 

Pinko froglover, and damn proud of it!

Bow to the supremacy of the chevrons!

(http://www.ausmotive.com/images2/Citroen-Survolt-Concept-03.jpg)

If he were getting that, I'd be fine with it.  But he wants this:

(http://www.auto-koehler.net/C5Break-1.jpg)

It looks awful.  Like a dying fish. 

Quote from: Raza  on October 28, 2011, 10:27:58 AM
If he were getting that, I'd be fine with it.  But he wants this:

(http://www.auto-koehler.net/C5Break-1.jpg)

It looks awful.  Like a dying fish. 

Wrong car you uncultured swine.

(http://www.scanauto-kokstad.no/bilder/2008-citroen-c5-estate-picture-1.jpg)



Ah, c'est magnifique!

Quote from: cawimmer430 on October 28, 2011, 07:50:34 AM
Where did I state that "I bought this car with my own money?"

My sister bought this car but she's not using it. She's working in another country and has no use for this car since public transportation is very good where she lives.

I am currently driving and using this car on a daily basis. It's my daily driver so in the interests of keeping it fucking simple I'm going to say "my car, my car, my car, my fucking car", got that?  :rolleyes:

And after all that, it still ain't yer car. :huh:

Quote from: mzziaz on October 28, 2011, 10:38:32 AM
(http://www.scanauto-kokstad.no/bilder/2008-citroen-c5-estate-picture-1.jpg)



Ah, c'est magnifique!

Ah, I Googled "horrible frog station wagon for gay commie bastards" and that's all that came up.  That one you posted does look much better.  But it's still no Skoda. 

(http://burnyourfuel.com/My_Files/Skoda/2009-Superb/Skoda_Superb_2009_Front_View.jpg)

To je fantastick?. A vypad? to mnohem l?pe, ne? stupidn? posran? Froggy francouzsk? auto teplou?.

The Citroen looks better than the Skoda. :huh:

Quote from: thecarnut on October 28, 2011, 12:32:31 PM
The Citroen looks better than the Skoda. :huh:

Frog commie bastard!

Ah oui, I've seen the C5 wagon quite a few times this past week and remarking to myself on how handsome it looks.

So much better than those Peugeot wagons, with all those goofy 45 degree angles around the C and D pillars/glass.

Yeah, that Citroen is a stunner.

How about a previous-gen Renault Scenic? Reasonable passenger comfort, very flexible cargo space, great fuel economy with the diesel.

Quote from: thecarnut on October 28, 2011, 12:32:31 PM
The Citroen looks better than the Skoda. :huh:

Finally a voice of reason!

Quote from: Tave on October 28, 2011, 01:38:29 PM
Yeah, that Citroen is a stunner.

And another one!

Raza, vous etes un VW garcon gigantique. Tres stupide aussi.

Quote from: mzziaz on October 28, 2011, 01:56:33 PM
And another one!

Raza, vous etes un VW garcon gigantique. Tres stupide aussi.

Quand vous avez fini de manger des grenouilles et de perdre aux Russes, salaud communiste, je prendrai ton cul salope ext?rieur.  La Skoda est de loin sup?rieure.

Quote from: Rupert on October 28, 2011, 10:42:34 AM
And after all that, it still ain't yer car. :huh:

So?

I'm using the description "my car" in the sense that I am driving it and owning it for the time being. It's still my sisters car. Big deal. You're really trying to get under my skin - and it isn't working.

Try harder.  :devil:

Quote from: Laconian on October 28, 2011, 01:41:16 PM
How about a previous-gen Renault Scenic? Reasonable passenger comfort, very flexible cargo space, great fuel economy with the diesel.

I wouldn't say no if someone gave one to me, but again, no MPVs.

My main problem with MPVs is that they generally have a cargo bay that works if you stack things on top of each other. That's not really possible with all my equipment, especially the large softboxes which I like to keep on top of my three suitcases containing all my lighting equipment. I can increase the cargo room by folding down the rear seats and that'll be fine but I am also transporting a lot of people and that means I need a rear seat bench most of the time.

The advantages of a wagon is that they have a long and flat cargo bay where I can neatly fit all my suitcases, tripods and softboxes in an orderly fashion. On location while shooting, I can easily then remove the stuff I need from the cargo bay without having to shuffle around my stuff like I would be doing in an MPV.

I actually have a shoot coming up with the new Dodge Durango (two of them, a black and white one) by the way. That dealership I shot the Challenger for imports American cars and has an exclusive contract with Chrysler North America to sell this car in Germany. Should be fun since the new Durango looks pretty nice. Sucks that there is no 1.2-l 3-cyl. diesel available for it though!

I'm not saying you're saying it's really your car. I'm saying that for a guy who drives his sister's car and is looking at buying a boring econo-car appliance, you sure do a lot of talking about how everyone should do the opposite of what you are planning to do. This makes you a hypocrite, poseur, full of shit, and a troll.

I love the Citroen C5 and Skoda Superb equally. But since my parking space is to small for a Superb, a C5 would be better suited (or an Octavia/Passat). Right now I am leaning towards the Skoda Octavia/Passat but the C5 is definitely a candidate.


Another cool car I really wanted to check out was the Alfa Romeo 159 Sportwagon. Sexy styling but the trunk is kind of small because the car sacrifices a lot for styling. It's just not as roomy and practical overall like the cars ^above^. :frown:

(http://www.autostaller.de/carousel/photos/alfa/Alfa-Romeo-159-Sportwagon.jpg)

(http://www.aesserent.it/Flotta/images/alfa-159-sportwagon.jpg)

Why don't you get an Accord wagon?

You buy the 159, you aren't a poseur et al.

1934 Skoda Superb.

(http://www.picturearchive.co.za/Images/large_1934-36+Skoda+Superb+type+640_32_VL.JPG)

History and Heritage?!!!

Quote from: Rupert on October 28, 2011, 06:16:22 PM
I'm not saying you're saying it's really your car. I'm saying that for a guy who drives his sister's car and is looking at buying a boring econo-car appliance, you sure do a lot of talking about how everyone should do the opposite of what you are planning to do. This makes you a hypocrite, poseur, full of shit, and a troll.

Please show me where I state that "people should be driving expensive luxury cars".

People are free to buy what they want. My arguments about luxury cars have always been that to me a true luxury brand is one with H&H and not some badge engineered mainstream car with leather seats and some extra features and a V8.  :rolleyes:

I've told you a thousand times that I am buying a car for my business needs, not personal/emotional needs. And because I like cars and actually want something interesting and practical, I am considering cars like a Citroen C5 and Skoda Octavia (Superb no more, to big for my parking spot) because they look good and are practical and fit my business/equipment needs. Period.

Quote from: CALL_911 on October 28, 2011, 06:20:09 PM
Why don't you get an Accord wagon?

They actually look good. But dealer distribution is rather thin. There's an Audi/VW/Skoda/Seat dealership across from my apartment and in M?hldorf where my parents live there's an Audi/VW and Skoda/Renault/Mitsubishi dealership also nearby.

Also, I want to buy a used car and the Honda 2.2 CTDI with Automatik transmission is a rare combination according to my searches.

Quote from: Rupert on October 28, 2011, 06:20:43 PM
You buy the 159, you aren't a poseur et al.

Why?

The trunk is to small for my requirements. I'm buying a car based on BUSINESS NEEDS and that means fitting all my equipment into the back and having space in the rear for gorgeous bikini models.

Wimmer, you don't have to entertain Rupert at all.



Also, aren't the Superb and C5 the same size? The Octavia is a class down, and is based on older mechanicals(IIRC). It seems like an automatic Golf Variant would be a better buy, IMO.

That 159 is gorgeous. As a photographer I thin style is as important as practicality. You are an artist. Get that.

Quote from: 2o6 on October 28, 2011, 07:09:04 PM
Also, aren't the Superb and C5 the same size? The Octavia is a class down, and is based on older mechanicals(IIRC). It seems like an automatic Golf Variant would be a better buy, IMO.

They're competitors, but the Superb is much bigger than the C5. I wonder why most magazines don't compare the Octavia to the C5.

Here's a cool review of both of them in German: http://www.ftd.de/auto/praxistests/:praxistest-citroen-c5-tourer-vs-skoda-superb-combi/50191815.html

:wub: @ both!

(http://thumb1.ftdcdn.de/preview/Image/pressinform-images/201011/STG20101107085224.jpg)

(http://thumb1.ftdcdn.de/preview/Image/pressinform-images/201011/STG20101107085247.jpg)

(http://thumb1.ftdcdn.de/preview/Image/pressinform-images/201011/STG20101107085210.jpg)

(http://thumb1.ftdcdn.de/preview/Image/pressinform-images/201011/STG20101107085450.jpg)

Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on October 28, 2011, 07:09:40 PM
That 159 is gorgeous. As a photographer I thin style is as important as practicality. You are an artist. Get that.

I was actually thinking along those lines! But sadly the trunk of the Alfa is a bit small and the "fastback" design at the rear really makes the upper trunk space a bit cramped for softboxes etc.

The picture is not the best but they look pretty similar in that first pic:

Insignia Tourer?

The Alpha looks spectacular compared to the others. However, I know nothing about them, and Jeremy Clarkson tells me that they depreciate faster than anything in existence. So get a used one.  :devil:

Quote from: 2o6 on October 28, 2011, 07:09:04 PM
Wimmer, you don't have to entertain Rupert at all.



Also, aren't the Superb and C5 the same size? The Octavia is a class down, and is based on older mechanicals(IIRC). It seems like an automatic Golf Variant would be a better buy, IMO.

He's doing such a good job (at entertaining me), though!

Quote from: cawimmer430 on October 28, 2011, 06:22:32 PM
Please show me where I state that "people should be driving expensive luxury cars".

People are free to buy what they want. My arguments about luxury cars have always been that to me a true luxury brand is one with H&H and not some badge engineered mainstream car with leather seats and some extra features and a V8.  :rolleyes:

I've told you a thousand times that I am buying a car for my business needs, not personal/emotional needs. And because I like cars and actually want something interesting and practical, I am considering cars like a Citroen C5 and Skoda Octavia (Superb no more, to big for my parking spot) because they look good and are practical and fit my business/equipment needs. Period.

For the last year or two, your argument has been, "OMG H&H over everything asnd toyotaz r crappy and cr is stoopid fuck them and do the exact opposite of what they say and and h&h h&h h&h!!!!" You're proposing to buy a European Toyota, unless you get the Alfa, in which case, I take everything back. But only if you get the Alfa.

I think you need to stop.

I think I'll stop when I want to stop, kiddo. ;)

Quote from: cawimmer430 on October 28, 2011, 06:22:32 PM
Please show me where I state that "people should be driving expensive luxury cars".

People are free to buy what they want. My arguments about luxury cars have always been that to me a true luxury brand is one with H&H and not some badge engineered mainstream car with leather seats and some extra features and a V8.  :rolleyes:

I've told you a thousand times that I am buying a car for my business needs, not personal/emotional needs. And because I like cars and actually want something interesting and practical, I am considering cars like a Citroen C5 and Skoda Octavia (Superb no more, to big for my parking spot) because they look good and are practical and fit my business/equipment needs. Period.

Wimmer, whenever someone expresses interest in a Lexus over a Benz, or even makes the comparison, you get your feathers all ruffled about museums and all other H&H nonsense. What you're basically doing is the equivalent- choosing a car for practical reasons over emotional ones. Just as there are practical reasons for choosing a Skoda over a Benz or Alfa, there are practical reasons for choosing a Lexus over a Merc. Hell, I wouldn't even call sozialneid a practical reason- it's the worst reason you could justify, IMHO. But yes, people can do whatever they want with their money, but after all your ranting about H&H, don't be surprised that it comes back around to you.

(http://photos.autoexpress.co.uk/images/front_picture_library_UK/dir_521/car_photo_260922_7.jpg)

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-62fUNlO0L4Q/Tgx8Dyx0u7I/AAAAAAAABDU/Z43sox6xNho/s1600/2006+Toyota+Corolla+h.jpg)

(http://mycarblog.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/lexus-lx-5708.jpg)

(http://fp.images.autos.msn.com/merismus/gallery/c430296a.jpg)

Quote from: cawimmer430 on October 28, 2011, 06:18:04 PM
I love the Citroen C5 and Skoda Superb equally. But since my parking space is to small for a Superb, a C5 would be better suited (or an Octavia/Passat). Right now I am leaning towards the Skoda Octavia/Passat but the C5 is definitely a candidate.


Another cool car I really wanted to check out was the Alfa Romeo 159 Sportwagon. Sexy styling but the trunk is kind of small because the car sacrifices a lot for styling. It's just not as roomy and practical overall like the cars ^above^. :frown:

(http://www.autostaller.de/carousel/photos/alfa/Alfa-Romeo-159-Sportwagon.jpg)

(http://www.aesserent.it/Flotta/images/alfa-159-sportwagon.jpg)

Damn son, that is sexy as hell.

Quote from: CALL_911 on October 29, 2011, 01:36:50 AM
(http://fp.images.autos.msn.com/merismus/gallery/c430296a.jpg)

ROFL

No fear of socialneid with that one..

Quote from: Vinsanity on October 28, 2011, 09:53:07 PM
Wimmer, whenever someone expresses interest in a Lexus over a Benz, or even makes the comparison, you get your feathers all ruffled about museums and all other H&H nonsense. What you're basically doing is the equivalent- choosing a car for practical reasons over emotional ones. Just as there are practical reasons for choosing a Skoda over a Benz or Alfa, there are practical reasons for choosing a Lexus over a Merc. Hell, I wouldn't even call sozialneid a practical reason- it's the worst reason you could justify, IMHO. But yes, people can do whatever they want with their money, but after all your ranting about H&H, don't be surprised that it comes back around to you.

I never threw a fit about someone picking a Lexus over a Mercedes.

I get annoyed when someone considers Lexus to be as "prestigious" as a BMW or Mercedes because I just don't see that prestige in a brand that has no comparable history to many established European luxury or even mainstream brands. Maybe that's because here in Europe a luxury brand needs some credibility and credibility is gained through a strong presence in history with various achievements. Lexus is not doing well here, Infiniti isn't doing well here and Acura and Hyundai don't even bother.

Quote from: Vinsanity on October 28, 2011, 11:10:36 PM
(http://mycarblog.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/lexus-lx-5708.jpg)

Come on. SUVs are for pussies. I'd rather have this.  :devil:

(http://www.f650pickups.com/hellbound2.jpg)

Quote from: cawimmer430 on October 29, 2011, 02:14:08 PM
I never threw a fit about someone picking a Lexus over a Mercedes.

I get annoyed when someone considers Lexus to be as "prestigious" as a BMW or Mercedes because I just don't see that prestige in a brand that has no comparable history to many established European luxury or even mainstream brands. Maybe that's because here in Europe a luxury brand needs some credibility and credibility is gained through a strong presence in history with various achievements. Lexus is not doing well here, Infiniti isn't doing well here and Acura and Hyundai don't even bother.

Lexus and Infiniti aren't following Mercedes is offering stripped-down non-luxury models, because they have Toyota and Nissan for that. That's why their volumes are lower than Mercedes or BMW.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on October 29, 2011, 02:14:08 PM
I never threw a fit about someone picking a Lexus over a Mercedes.

I get annoyed when someone considers Lexus to be as "prestigious" as a BMW or Mercedes because I just don't see that prestige in a brand that has no comparable history to many established European luxury or even mainstream brands. Maybe that's because here in Europe a luxury brand needs some credibility and credibility is gained through a strong presence in history with various achievements. Lexus is not doing well here, Infiniti isn't doing well here and Acura and Hyundai don't even bother.

At exactly what point did Rolls Royce, BMW or Mercedes achieve the necessary history to be considered "prestigious"?

Lol this guy never quits.

Quote from: ifcar on October 29, 2011, 03:44:02 PM
Lexus and Infiniti aren't following Mercedes is offering stripped-down non-luxury models, because they have Toyota and Nissan for that. That's why their volumes are lower than Mercedes or BMW.

Follow the history of Mercedes. They offered luxury cars and cars for the common man since the very beginnings. The car market back then was completely different. Brands were starting out, they had to make money, they had to experiment and test the markets. In fact many European brands offered economy and luxury cars under one brand name. It's not a big deal here.

Citroen offered the economy 2CV, Dyane, Ami6 while at the same time offering the luxurious DS, SM and later the GS/CX. Fiat had various economy cars and also offered top-end luxury cars like the Fiat 130 Coupe and 130 Sedan. BMW Isetta at the bottom and BMW 502/503 at the top. Mercedes 170V/170S/170D down low and Mercedes 300 Adenauer up high. The list is endless.

Lexus and Infiniti were created specifically for the US. Toyota and Nissan had the funds to create a brand out of scratch (and they probably had to since nobody would pay for an overpriced Toyota/Nissan premium car) and define them as a "luxury" brand with lots of features. Still doesn't make them luxury or remotely interesting brands to me. To me they are overpriced Toyotas and Nissans with lots features designed to appeal to American buyers. Even Hyundai can offer a luxury car there in and it will sell. That would never work here. Hyundai can't even sell their Sonata sedan here, much less the Grandeur (Azera).

Quote from: MX793 on October 29, 2011, 04:21:10 PM
At exactly what point did Rolls Royce, BMW or Mercedes achieve the necessary history to be considered "prestigious"?

What makes those brands prestigious is their history. Their achievements, their technical and safety developments, their motorsport heritage and the technology developed during motorsport participation as well as the various classic cars from them that are still around and highly sought after. There's much more but you get the point (hopefully).

People aspire to own these brands here. They stand for something. We know they're prestigious and swirl emotions in people.

The simplest way to say this is as follows: BMW, Mercedes and Rolls Royce have MUSEUMS displaying their long and prestigious and exciting history. Lexus, Infiniti and Acura don't. I've said it before but in Europe a luxury brand needs credentials. Lexus, Infiniti etc. don't have that and they don't build cars that appeal to Europeans. They also refuse to adapt to local market needs (no wagons, no diesels etc.).

Quote from: cawimmer430 on October 30, 2011, 03:18:35 AM
Follow the history of Mercedes. They offered luxury cars and cars for the common man since the very beginnings. The car market back then was completely different. Brands were starting out, they had to make money, they had to experiment and test the markets. In fact many European brands offered economy and luxury cars under one brand name. It's not a big deal here.

Yes, it gets you higher sales volume, which is all you've been able to point to as evidence. Obviously if you create a stripped down base model and sell a lot of them, that improves your sales compared to a brand that only sells high-end models, but is that supposed to be evidence of a more successful luxury brand?

Quote

Citroen offered the economy 2CV, Dyane, Ami6 while at the same time offering the luxurious DS, SM and later the GS/CX. Fiat had various economy cars and also offered top-end luxury cars like the Fiat 130 Coupe and 130 Sedan. BMW Isetta at the bottom and BMW 502/503 at the top. Mercedes 170V/170S/170D down low and Mercedes 300 Adenauer up high. The list is endless.

Yes, Toyota and Nissan do that in Japan. Just pretend that's what you're getting, except with fancier dealers, and boom -- there's your H&H.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on October 30, 2011, 03:27:30 AM
What makes those brands prestigious is their history. Their achievements, their technical and safety developments, their motorsport heritage and the technology developed during motorsport participation as well as the various classic cars from them that are still around and highly sought after. There's much more but you get the point (hopefully).

People aspire to own these brands here. They stand for something. We know they're prestigious and swirl emotions in people.

The simplest way to say this is as follows: BMW, Mercedes and Rolls Royce have MUSEUMS displaying their long and prestigious and exciting history. Lexus, Infiniti and Acura don't. I've said it before but in Europe a luxury brand needs credentials. Lexus, Infiniti etc. don't have that and they don't build cars that appeal to Europeans. They also refuse to adapt to local market needs (no wagons, no diesels etc.).

You didn't answer my question.  After how many years of existence did any of these brands achieve sufficient "history" to be considered "prestigious"?  Was Rolls-Royce considered prestigious right out of the gate?  Did it take them 10 years?  15?

For that matter, please name ONE major motorsport achievement (LeMans victory, racing championship, anything) of Rolls-Royce or one major automotive technological development that can be attributed to them.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on October 30, 2011, 03:18:35 AM
Follow the history of Mercedes. They offered luxury cars and cars for the common man since the very beginnings. The car market back then was completely different. Brands were starting out, they had to make money, they had to experiment and test the markets. In fact many European brands offered economy and luxury cars under one brand name. It's not a big deal here.

Citroen offered the economy 2CV, Dyane, Ami6 while at the same time offering the luxurious DS, SM and later the GS/CX. Fiat had various economy cars and also offered top-end luxury cars like the Fiat 130 Coupe and 130 Sedan. BMW Isetta at the bottom and BMW 502/503 at the top. Mercedes 170V/170S/170D down low and Mercedes 300 Adenauer up high. The list is endless.

Lexus and Infiniti were created specifically for the US. Toyota and Nissan had the funds to create a brand out of scratch (and they probably had to since nobody would pay for an overpriced Toyota/Nissan premium car) and define them as a "luxury" brand with lots of features. Still doesn't make them luxury or remotely interesting brands to me. To me they are overpriced Toyotas and Nissans with lots features designed to appeal to American buyers. Even Hyundai can offer a luxury car there in and it will sell. That would never work here. Hyundai can't even sell their Sonata sedan here, much less the Grandeur (Azera).

Which is more of a "luxury brand":  The brand that only builds luxury cars or the brand that builds cars for nearly every segment?

Does anyone catch the H&H irony that pretty much all automakers today use the Toyota Production System, and that otherwise without Toyota BMW, M-B, Audi, etc., could not make the cars they build today?

Wimmer fail.

Quote from: ifcar on October 29, 2011, 03:44:02 PM
Lexus and Infiniti aren't following Mercedes is offering stripped-down non-luxury models, because they have Toyota and Nissan for that. That's why their volumes are lower than Mercedes or BMW.

Yes, they just rebadge economy cars as luxury ones (at least in the near past)

Quote from: cawimmer430 on October 30, 2011, 03:27:30 AM
What makes those brands prestigious is their history. Their achievements, their technical and safety developments, their motorsport heritage and the technology developed during motorsport participation as well as the various classic cars from them that are still around and highly sought after. There's much more but you get the point (hopefully).

People aspire to own these brands here. They stand for something. We know they're prestigious and swirl emotions in people.

The simplest way to say this is as follows: BMW, Mercedes and Rolls Royce have MUSEUMS displaying their long and prestigious and exciting history. Lexus, Infiniti and Acura don't. I've said it before but in Europe a luxury brand needs credentials. Lexus, Infiniti etc. don't have that and they don't build cars that appeal to Europeans. They also refuse to adapt to local market needs (no wagons, no diesels etc.).

Honda, Toyota & Nissan, IIRC, all have museums too.

What are the credentials needed for a luxury brand to succeed in Europe? It seems like the only requirement you have as that they are not Japanese.

Quote from: AltinD on October 30, 2011, 12:08:23 PM
Yes, they just rebadge economy cars as luxury ones (at least in the near past)

MB and BMW don't even bother rebadging them. ;)

Quote from: ifcar on October 30, 2011, 06:31:05 AM
Yes, it gets you higher sales volume, which is all you've been able to point to as evidence. Obviously if you create a stripped down base model and sell a lot of them, that improves your sales compared to a brand that only sells high-end models, but is that supposed to be evidence of a more successful luxury brand?

Lexus sold 20 GS cars in Germany from January to September this year. 20 GS cars! Is pathetic even a word to describe this fact? That's fucking embarrassing.

How many fully loaded E-Classes and 5ers do you think Mercedes and BMW sold in that same time frame? More than 20? More than 100? More than a 1,000? More than 2,000? More than 5,000? More than 10,000? Mercedes sold 12,306 E-Classes from July 2011 to September 2011 alone. You can bet that a substantial number of those (I am estimating 5,000+) were nicely spec'd.

Click this link and scroll through the different months to see the best-selling cars in Germany: http://www.kfz-auskunft.de/kfz/zulassungen.html

There's no Lexus in the top 100 ANYWHERE.

Fully loaded? That doesn't impress most people here. The way we see it, "more useless shit, more weight and a higher fuel consumption". Most people I know prefer to option out their cars with the stuff they need and want. The same rule applies to luxury cars.

Quote from: MX793 on October 30, 2011, 07:17:16 AM
You didn't answer my question.  After how many years of existence did any of these brands achieve sufficient "history" to be considered "prestigious"?  Was Rolls-Royce considered prestigious right out of the gate?  Did it take them 10 years?  15?

Most automotive historians consider the "Golden Age of the Automobile" to have occurred from the late 19th century to the 1930s. Take a guess which brands were part of that and actually produced some stunning cars both in terms of design, technology, innovation and motorsports. It was during this time that these brands were already attaining their reputations etc.

Hint: Those overpriced Toyotas were nowhere to be seen at the time.

Quote from: MX793 on October 30, 2011, 07:17:16 AMFor that matter, please name ONE major motorsport achievement (LeMans victory, racing championship, anything) of Rolls-Royce or one major automotive technological development that can be attributed to them.

Rolls Royce participated in major endurance races on the British isles and on continental Europe in the 1910s and 1920s as well as some minor motorsport events in Britain to showcase their prowess.

I'm surprised you've also not heard of the famous Campbell Bluebird car that was designed to attain the highest speeds possible on land in the mid 1930s. It was powered by a Rolls Royce engine.

Well, Wimmer's going back on the ol' ignore list...

Quote from: Vinsanity on October 14, 2011, 10:22:22 AM
You're going to be driving around with models?

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/71/Cadillac_DeVille_Convertible_1965-1968.jpg/640px-Cadillac_DeVille_Convertible_1965-1968.jpg)

You know you want to. You don't stop talking about it. Time to do it.

I LOVE that car, man.  Beautiful.

Quote from: 93JC on October 30, 2011, 05:22:41 PM
Well, Wimmer's going back on the ol' ignore list...

Aren't you taking this way too seriously?

Quote from: cawimmer430 on October 30, 2011, 05:06:25 PM
Most automotive historians consider the "Golden Age of the Automobile" to have occurred from the late 19th century to the 1930s. Take a guess which brands were part of that and actually produced some stunning cars both in terms of design, technology, innovation and motorsports. It was during this time that these brands were already attaining their reputations etc.

Hint: Those overpriced Toyotas were nowhere to be seen at the time.



Rolls Royce participated in major endurance races on the British isles and on continental Europe in the 1910s and 1920s as well as some minor motorsport events in Britain to showcase their prowess.

I'm surprised you've also not heard of the famous Campbell Bluebird car that was designed to attain the highest speeds possible on land in the mid 1930s. It was powered by a Rolls Royce engine.

So no brand that didn't exist in 1930 can ever possibly be a luxury brand? Come on!

Quote from: dazzleman on October 30, 2011, 05:33:44 PM
Aren't you taking this way too seriously?

No. If I wanted to take it too seriously I'd start arguing with him. This is just a simple matter of filtering out dumb posts. They're not worth reading anymore.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on October 30, 2011, 05:06:25 PM
Most automotive historians consider the "Golden Age of the Automobile" to have occurred from the late 19th century to the 1930s. Take a guess which brands were part of that and actually produced some stunning cars both in terms of design, technology, innovation and motorsports. It was during this time that these brands were already attaining their reputations etc.

Hint: Those overpriced Toyotas were nowhere to be seen at the time.

No doubt that was the golden age of autos.  Now name me one specific technological innovation that can be attributed to Rolls?  Hint:  Rolls has never been known for automotive innovation.  In fact, their entire reputation was not about being on the cutting edge, but rather for making very reliable, well-built cars.  Pretty much what Lexus does.

QuoteRolls Royce participated in major endurance races on the British isles and on continental Europe in the 1910s and 1920s as well as some minor motorsport events in Britain to showcase their prowess.

Name one.  Name one major victory or championship.  Why when I search "Rolls Royce racing history" do I get no specific hits?  No Grand Prix championships (or victories, for that matter).  No touring car titles.  No LeMans victories.  No Mille Miglia victories.  No Carrera Panamericana victories.  No Targa Florio victories.  Rolls' own website mentions nothing of auto racing (save for the land speed records set by cars powered by RR aircraft engines).  Rolls doesn't brag about its racing heritage because it doesn't really have one.  They set some endurance records very early on (pre-1910, before C.S. Rolls was killed in a plane accident), and have done nothing since.  Certainly nothing in the Golden age of motorsport.  Lexus has 3 manufacturer's cup victories in the Rolex Sports car series and multiple JGTC titles.

QuoteI'm surprised you've also not heard of the famous Campbell Bluebird car that was designed to attain the highest speeds possible on land in the mid 1930s. It was powered by a Rolls Royce engine.

That car was powered by an aircraft engine.  Rolls didn't develop the car and didn't develop the engine specifically for the car.  Campbell bought a plane engine (likely from the British government) and dropped it into a car that was custom designed from the ground up.  Previous versions of the Bluebird used a Napier aircraft engine.  Rolls as a company had nothing to do with that speed record.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on October 30, 2011, 04:59:41 PM
Fully loaded? That doesn't impress most people here. The way we see it, "more useless shit, more weight and a higher fuel consumption". Most people I know prefer to option out their cars with the stuff they need and want. The same rule applies to luxury cars.

Doesn't matter what brand it's from:

Luxury Car - Luxury = Car

Lol

Yes indeed - fine Internetry by MX793.

Quote from: Rupert on October 30, 2011, 05:35:36 PM
So no brand that didn't exist in 1930 can ever possibly be a luxury brand? Come on!

You're misunderstanding me.

Lexus has their own kind of prestige. It's just not the same or comparable to their European or even American rivals IMO. When people mention Lexus in the same sentence with these brands I wonder "WHY"? WHY? They've been offering badge engineered Toyotas with lots of features and quality for decades and that's it - literally. No real innovation, no motorsport, no classic cars - nothing. I don't see how this brand can be considered prestigious at all.

They're competitive in terms of products but the brand history and heritage is empty and unemotional. Again, take a look at the stuff in the museums of the European luxury brands. You'll be taken back through history and see the buildup of these brands etc. That's an impressive history. It's an interesting history. There were cars produced during those times that have made history. The only Lexus car that really made history was the 1989 LS400 that easily beat out its European rivals that were at the end of their product life cycle (about to be replaced anyway). Wow. How impressive is that!?

Quote from: MX793 on October 30, 2011, 06:08:52 PM
No doubt that was the golden age of autos.  Now name me one specific technological innovation that can be attributed to Rolls?  Hint:  Rolls has never been known for automotive innovation.  In fact, their entire reputation was not about being on the cutting edge, but rather for making very reliable, well-built cars.  Pretty much what Lexus does.

Producing quiet engines and equipping your cars with sound-deadening materials can be considered innovation in those days - which is what Rolls Royce did. Rolls Royce was a design pioneer during that time and they were one of the first brands to copy nature in trying to create a dynamic and efficiently design car (and this in the 1920s/1930s).

And at the end of the day Rolls Royce produced fine automobiles in the golden age of the automobile and made a name for themselves. Lexus wasn't there. Let's not forget that already by the '20s Rolls Royce was a global brand. A global brand is first of all successful in their home market. Lexus was designed with clinical precision to suit the tastes of Americans. They may have sold these cars outside of North American in the early 1990s, but Lexus wasn't a global brand back then (and in many ways still isn't one today). They weren't successful in their home market of Japan because they were literally badge engineered Toyotas with a V8 and leather thrown in to suit American luxury tastes. How lame and utterly boring this brand is.

From a European perspective, Lexus means jack shit here. "Overpriced Toyota" is how most people view them here. And they're far from cheap here. People are simply willing to spend more to get a car from an established luxury brand that actually stands for something and where one can individualize their purchase with the features and trims they want. That's not possible with Lexus cars here, which are literally all identical.

We can argue about this all day. There are two different views here on luxury cars that'll never agree: the American value view and the European brand prestige view.  :huh:

Quote from: MX793 on October 30, 2011, 06:08:52 PMName one.  Name one major victory or championship.  Why when I search "Rolls Royce racing history" do I get no specific hits?  No Grand Prix championships (or victories, for that matter).  No touring car titles.  No LeMans victories.  No Mille Miglia victories.  No Carrera Panamericana victories.  No Targa Florio victories.  Rolls' own website mentions nothing of auto racing (save for the land speed records set by cars powered by RR aircraft engines).  Rolls doesn't brag about its racing heritage because it doesn't really have one.  They set some endurance records very early on (pre-1910, before C.S. Rolls was killed in a plane accident), and have done nothing since.  Certainly nothing in the Golden age of motorsport.  Lexus has 3 manufacturer's cup victories in the Rolex Sports car series and multiple JGTC titles.

The best way to market oneself as a car brand during this time period was by participating in motorsport and endurance races. Rolls Royce did just that. You won't find detail names because these events were pretty much local events. You'll find events such as the "Scottish Reliability Run" in which Rolls Royce cars participated, but again, local events on the British Isles which probably didn't make it into the history books.

You're right though that Rolls Royce wasn't heavily involved in the big races. But does it matter in this case? They were and are an ?ber-luxury brand and they've got the history and heritage to back it up. Seriously competitive motorsports wasn't their thing (but Bentley, a brand they bought in the early 1930s I believe, was known for its racing pedigree and achievements). They were successful in their home market. They were successful in Europe and globally. They were around during the golden age of the automobile producing fine cars and improving their already good-standing name.

At the end of the day, brands like Rolls Royce, Bentley and Maybach are not competitors to Lexus. They're above Lexus. Lexus and their Japanese rivals compete with more practical luxury like Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Jaguar, Cadillac and Lincoln. And the history of those brands alone blows away Lexus a billion times over.

I honestly don't understand how anyone can walk through say an Audi, BMW and Mercedes Museum and then claim Lexus is "just as prestigious". To me that's complete and utter bullshit and the person who made that silly retard claim should have his face repeatedly smashed into a wall - maybe that'll knock some sense into him.  :evildude:

We can argue about this all day. You won't change my mind about this brand.  ;)

Quote from: cawimmer430 on October 31, 2011, 06:00:27 AM

We can argue about this all day. There are two different views here on luxury cars that'll never agree: the American value view and the European WIMMER brand prestige view.  :huh:

Wim is madder at the Japanese beating the Europeans at their own game than any European marque exec lmao

This guy is non stop comedy

He prob has nightmares about the 1989 LS400

And LOL @ him crying about Japanese badge engineering, but considering a SKODA for his next car

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Lexus was able to provide the industry standard for reliability in the Luxury car segment with the LS400. That's the car that got the Germans scared. Someone could come in and offer a similar vehicle that's built just as well and looks just as good, maybe even better, and charge $10,000+ less AND be CONSISTENTLY reliable. The LS had teething issues, and we all know that, but how they were handled makes a difference. The experience at a Lexus dealership makes the brand that much more appealing.

Got some tall shit?  I don't give no fucks.

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_kW7pFkuD5e4/TJolUIyE4gI/AAAAAAAAEZw/izyEakMjq-k/s1600/maloo_economy_full.jpg)

I just built a 2012 LS460L and an S550, and they are almost identically equipped. 


LS460L: $78,521
S550: $110,165

That's a damn near $32,000 difference.

Quote from: CJ on October 31, 2011, 09:04:57 AM
I just built a 2012 LS460L and an S550, and they are almost identically equipped.  


LS460L: $78,521
S550: $110,165

That's a damn near $32,000 difference.

:rolleyes:

Can you build an LS with a 2.0L turbodiesel 3 cylinder, roll up windows in front/power windows in rear, analog AM radio with navigation + Bluetooth & half cloth half MERTEX interior like 99% of European S-Classes are specced? NO. Will the badge on the steering wheel of the Lexus make you palpitate from the overwhelming wave of history & heritage. NO. Will the Lexus express its character to you through various issues prompting you to make unscheduled dealer visits? NO!!!!! How can you even begin to make such a comparison? A $32K premium for the Mercedes Benz experience is a BARGAIN. I think I am having a heart attack

I got to the second no thinking that was a Wimmer post. Good job, sporty. :lol:

Quote from: cawimmer430 on October 31, 2011, 05:34:53 AM
You're misunderstanding me.

Lexus has their own kind of prestige. It's just not the same or comparable to their European or even American rivals IMO. When people mention Lexus in the same sentence with these brands I wonder "WHY"? WHY? They've been offering badge engineered Toyotas with lots of features and quality for decades and that's it - literally. No real innovation, no motorsport, no classic cars - nothing. I don't see how this brand can be considered prestigious at all.

They're competitive in terms of products but the brand history and heritage is empty and unemotional. Again, take a look at the stuff in the museums of the European luxury brands. You'll be taken back through history and see the buildup of these brands etc. That's an impressive history. It's an interesting history. There were cars produced during those times that have made history. The only Lexus car that really made history was the 1989 LS400 that easily beat out its European rivals that were at the end of their product life cycle (about to be replaced anyway). Wow. How impressive is that!?

Ah, OK, I see your point. So, then, at what point does a brand have enough H&H to be considered an official prestigious luxury brand?



I feel like this question has been asked a few times. :banghead:

Quote from: CJ on October 31, 2011, 09:04:57 AM
I just built a 2012 LS460L and an S550, and they are almost identically equipped. 


LS460L: $78,521
S550: $110,165

That's a damn near $32,000 difference.

The S550 is probably the worst value in the luxury game right now.  My dad even stopped buying Mercedes and went to Lexus, when he could easily have afforded to buy a Bentley.

Quote from: Rupert on October 31, 2011, 11:49:03 AM
Ah, OK, I see your point. So, then, at what point does a brand have enough H&H to be considered an official prestigious luxury brand?

However long Wimmer's brands of choice have been in existence.

It's amazing how a new S-Class is a terrible value, but a used one is one of the best values on the used car market. A 2007 model can be found for $36,000. That's a steal. An older S500 can be found even cheaper.

Quote from: CJ on October 31, 2011, 02:04:38 PM
It's amazing how a new S-Class is a terrible value, but a used one is one of the best values on the used car market. A 2007 model can be found for $36,000. That's a steal. An older S500 can be found even cheaper.

I kind of regret not jumping on the opportunity to buy a certified 2006 S350 for $25k right before my car's A/C died and got 2 flat tires. Nothing like H&H on the cheap.

Quote from: CJ on October 31, 2011, 02:04:38 PM
It's amazing how a new S-Class is a terrible value, but a used one is one of the best values on the used car market. A 2007 model can be found for $36,000. That's a steal. An older S500 can be found even cheaper.

You didn't factor in the lack of a warranty.

Quote from: sportyaccordy on October 31, 2011, 03:24:25 PM
You didn't factor in the lack of a warranty.

You can always pay for one.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on October 31, 2011, 05:34:53 AM
The only Lexus car that really made history was the 1989 LS400 that easily beat out its European rivals that were at the end of their product life cycle (about to be replaced anyway). Wow. How impressive is that!?

Pretty impressive if you ask me for an initial launch. I prefer German brands maybe as much as you do, but you go too far with the rebranded Toyota thing. It applies to the lower Lexus line, not so much on the top. Same thing as Infiniti.

Or Audi, for that matter. A1s and A3s could be called rebranded Skodas/Seats/VWs. It gets more differentiation from the A4 upwards but even those share a lot of engines with their value brothers.

Wimmer thinks it's still the golden age of automobiles, but only if you're German.

Quote from: CJ on October 31, 2011, 09:04:57 AM
I just built a 2012 LS460L and an S550, and they are almost identically equipped. 


LS460L: $78,521
S550: $110,165

That's a damn near $32,000 difference.

That same car in germany would cost more then 110,000 EUR, so feel lucky for those prices.

Here in Dubai, that is pretty much tax-free, $110,000 will only buy you a S350 with the AMG design package.

Quote from: sportyaccordy on October 31, 2011, 08:27:11 AM
And LOL @ him crying about Japanese badge engineering, but considering a SKODA for his next car

What's wrong with a Skoda?  :rolleyes:

Quote from: Rupert on October 31, 2011, 11:49:03 AM
So, then, at what point does a brand have enough H&H to be considered an official prestigious luxury brand?

Look at the history of a brand like say MB for example from 1886 onwards.

You're honestly implying that a Lexus has the same amount of brand prestige as MB? A company that was started in 1989?

Give me a fucking break.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on November 01, 2011, 10:15:38 AM
What's wrong with a Skoda?  :rolleyes:

Nothing's wrong with Skoda, he's just saying it's odd that you're up in arms about Toyota rebadging when Skodas are essentially all rebadged Volkswagens.  Although, the Superb is heavily worked over, with the extended wheelbase and that whole trunk system.

Quote from: Raza  on November 01, 2011, 10:19:33 AM
Nothing's wrong with Skoda, he's just saying it's odd that you're up in arms about Toyota rebadging when Skodas are essentially all rebadged Volkswagens.  Although, the Superb is heavily worked over, with the extended wheelbase and that whole trunk system.

I don't have a problem with badge engineering for mainstream cars. I am not buying a mainstream car because I want to experience luxury or the brand. I'm buying a mainstream car because I want certain other traits from them.

These arguments are going nowhere. I don't consider Lexus to have the same brand prestige as their European rivals. Period.

And this is my reasoning:

Schloss Neuschwanstein - THE ORIGINAL - SINCE 1869 (this can be a Mercedes, BMW etc.)
(http://www.harare.diplo.de/contentblob/1668792/BildDaten/8111/galerie_neuschwanstein2.jpg)

Disney Castle - THE COPY (inspired by Schloss Neuschwanstein) - SINCE 1971 (this is Lexus)
(http://conquestofmythodea.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/walt-disney-castle.jpg)


If both these structures were a brand, which one would be considered more prestigious and have more brand prestige? Do you get my point of view?  :rolleyes:

Quote from: cawimmer430 on November 01, 2011, 10:48:08 AM
These arguments are going nowhere. I don't consider Lexus to have the same brand prestige as their European rivals. Period.

And this is my reasoning:

Schloss Neuschwanstein - THE ORIGINAL - SINCE 1869 (this can be a Mercedes, BMW etc.)
(http://www.harare.diplo.de/contentblob/1668792/BildDaten/8111/galerie_neuschwanstein2.jpg)

Disney Castle - THE COPY (inspired by Schloss Neuschwanstein) - SINCE 1971 (this is Lexus)
(http://conquestofmythodea.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/walt-disney-castle.jpg)


If both these structures were a brand, which one would be considered more prestigious and have more brand prestige? Do you get my point of view?  :rolleyes:

Some of us can see what you are getting at, but this may not be the best example. Most people on earth will know exactly what and where that second castle is. Neuschwanstein, not as likely. ( I built a puzzle of it once though. )  :lol:

Quote from: cawimmer430 on November 01, 2011, 10:48:08 AM
These arguments are going nowhere. I don't consider Lexus to have the same brand prestige as their European rivals. Period.

And this is my reasoning:

Schloss Neuschwanstein - THE ORIGINAL - SINCE 1869 (this can be a Mercedes, BMW etc.)
(http://www.harare.diplo.de/contentblob/1668792/BildDaten/8111/galerie_neuschwanstein2.jpg)

Disney Castle - THE COPY (inspired by Schloss Neuschwanstein) - SINCE 1971 (this is Lexus)
(http://conquestofmythodea.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/walt-disney-castle.jpg)


If both these structures were a brand, which one would be considered more prestigious and have more brand prestige? Do you get my point of view?  :rolleyes:

Considering that those two don?t actually compete against each other at anything, it?s a terrible comparison. 

Besides, age is a terrible baseline for prestige and will get your argument in all sorts of trouble if that?s what you?re going to hitch it to.  So stop.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on November 01, 2011, 10:48:08 AM
These arguments are going nowhere.

Because whenever the topic comes up, your brain shuts down.

You haven't said anything that makes sense, and you constantly flip flop on "rules" whenever it is convenient.

Lol @ you slamming Toyota for Lexus, but copping every plea under the sun for Maybach. Etc. The gross lapses in logic never cease when it comes to Wimmer & luxury cars.

So yes you're right, the argument is going nowhere and it's pointless. But YOU have to do YOUR part in not perpetuating it. YOU are the most vocal person about these things and YOU are generally the instigator of these topics. So maybe YOU should reconsider YOUR approach if this is a sensitive subject for you.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on November 01, 2011, 10:17:38 AM
Look at the history of a brand like say MB for example from 1886 onwards.

You're honestly implying that a Lexus has the same amount of brand prestige as MB? A company that was started in 1989?

Give me a fucking break.

When did MB achieve enough age/prestige?

Quote from: Speed_Racer on October 14, 2011, 01:04:45 PM
Now's your chance! Think of all the History & Heritage & Hookers!

(http://www.stationwagon.com/gallery/pictures/1976_Chevy_Caprice.jpg)

(http://www.mattfind.com/12345673215-3-2-3_img/movie/e/o/y/national_lampoons_vacation_1983_400x300_429975.jpg)

LOL

Quote from: Rupert on October 28, 2011, 07:57:27 PM
He's doing such a good job (at entertaining me), though!

And me as well.

Since this thread has gone to shit....I'm going to discuss my rather recent interest & love for Audis....so I'll post this picture first:

(http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff517/EncinitasLiving/photo-17.jpg?t=1318759007)

I rode in this Audi....that's the shop owner holding the box with a smile on his face....proud of his quite amazing parallel parking job. I loved the car.....great looking, the interior was great and it was a diesel. And I like the red.

I don't know what year it is, but it's an A4 wagon stick (like every car in Salamanca...seemingly). I should change my screen name to Audi-BenzBoy15 because I've really gotten to like Audis. They look great, the interiors are fantastic and they seem like they drive great as well. I didn't ask him too much about the car besides his opinions on diesel cars and how he loves the Audi....but his S-Class better. Wimmer ;)

The Audi is his wife's car....but for business....he uses the Audi, as in the case with me. Tomorrow, when I'm picking something up...I'm going to talk to him about Audis as well and what he thinks in more detail. He loves cars as much as he loves antiques...well, maybe slightly less LOL.

I also used to have a bias against wagons, but I've been warming to them since I've been in Europe. The more upscale ones look great and they seem to be very useful for business.

Ya, the color is a bit much....but I kinda like it. :mask: But imagine that in black!

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3095/4563206665_183b2ab22c.jpg)

Same with the A4:

(http://www.auto-broker-magic.com/images/2009-a4-wagon.jpg)

(http://archive.caranddriver.com/var/ezflow_site/storage/images/reviews/car/10q1/2010_audi_a4_2.0t_avant_s-line-short_take_road_test/gallery/2010_audi_a4_2.0t_avant_s-line_photo_8/3174409-1-eng-US/2010_audi_a4_2_0t_avant_s_line_16_cd_gallery.jpg)

Drool.

What year do you guys think the shop owner's Audi is? It's his wife's....but he likes it.

I could go on and on about Audis....but they look great. I want to drive one.....a couple years back we almost bought an A6. I dragged my Dad to the Audi dealer, showed him the A6 and he actually liked it and thought about buying it....and almost did. But then he changed his mind and decided it was too "pretentious."

We are looking for a replacement vehicle for the Suburban (which is my Moms)....HISTORY AND HERITAGE WIMMER!!!

And I'm thinking an A4 Avant....hmmm....I like that idea. Maybe I can talk her into getting one....or the A6 wagon.

Laconian/mods....

Can you change my screen name to AudiBenzBoy15?

^No one cares

Quote from: CALL_911 on November 01, 2011, 03:49:35 PM
^No one cares

Since you've gone to college, you really have become somewhat of a condescending prick. Typical "Bro" behavior, but then again, ,you are BroHan. It'll be interesting to see the how much more of a "bro" you become by junior/senior year....LOL. In the meantime, keep at it behind your keyboard.

And I don't give a shit what you think.

;)

I love Audis....get over it. I also like pictures of Audis...get over that too.

;)

In any case this thread is great. I loved reading the past couple of pages and I need to observe Wimmer's threads for more entertainment value.

Ooops.

(http://otomac.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/2012-Audi-A6-Avant-Interior-View.jpg)

The interiors look great as well, Brohan.

;)

KK

I saw lots of Skoda Superbs as taxis in Paris. They looked pretty darn good.

They were the car of choice for upper-class Indians who didn't want an MB/Audi/BMW, but wanted European flair. Nice cars, but they're massive.

I think Skoda or even SEAT is a better fit for the US than a cheap VW lineup.

Quote from: Laconian on November 01, 2011, 04:04:31 PM
I saw lots of Skoda Superbs as taxis in Paris. They looked pretty darn good.

What'd you think about the taxis in London?

Quote from: BENZ BOY15 on November 01, 2011, 04:08:16 PM
What'd you think about the taxis in London?

He thinks they're stupid pieces of shit that eat young children.

I think they'd be perfect as Wimmer's next car. Room for people, room for things, and H&H&H&H

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_p66DUl--Am4/TLz0lJEcGaI/AAAAAAAAABE/Zi2Ny0cEUD4/s1600/camry+wagon.jpg)

Yikes what a disastrous thread

. I'm not sure if there is all that much Lexus hate in Germany, or if they just prefer domestic choices to consider first over others. Like, you know, most of other auto making nations out there. Perhaps I will ask my German neighbors down the street.

H&H is highly irrelevant. Ability means everything. ( Gauntlet tossed. )

Quote from: Rupert on November 01, 2011, 12:43:26 PM
When did MB achieve enough age/prestige?

In 1887   :evildude:

Disneyland has 10x more value than an old mansion castle in Europe.

We're all wasting our time here with these discussions. I've got my point of view which is shared by many here (none of the classic car / enthusiast owners I work with consider Lexus a prestige brand for example) and you have your "value + V8 = luxury brand" (literally) point of view. Now even Hyundai can be considered a prestige brand. Wow! Whatever. Waste of time.

I won't bother responding to these discussions anymore. Waste of time.  :huh:

Quote from: cawimmer430 on November 02, 2011, 05:03:17 AM
I won't bother responding to these discussions anymore. Waste of time.  :huh:

Yea we will see about that.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on November 02, 2011, 05:03:17 AM
We're all wasting our time here with these discussions. I've got my point of view which is shared by many here (none of the classic car / enthusiast owners I work with consider Lexus a prestige brand for example) and you have your "value + V8 = luxury brand" (literally) point of view. Now even Hyundai can be considered a prestige brand. Wow! Whatever. Waste of time.

I won't bother responding to these discussions anymore. Waste of time.  :huh:

Your whole H&H opinion kinda falters when there is a car that is better than one with "H&H"...and yet you still defend the inferior car.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on November 02, 2011, 05:03:17 AM
We're all wasting our time here with these discussions. I've got my point of view which is shared by many here (none of the classic car / enthusiast owners I work with consider Lexus a prestige brand for example) and you have your "value + V8 = luxury brand" (literally) point of view. Now even Hyundai can be considered a prestige brand. Wow! Whatever. Waste of time.

I won't bother responding to these discussions anymore. Waste of time.  :huh:

Good idea - just like I avoid talking politics with my uncle. We get along great except for that.

Hyundai doesn't seem to have any qualms about using its name on its econoboxes through luxury models. Hyundai Motor Company got started in 1967 so, give them another 55 years, and they will be prestigious too.

Quote from: CJ on October 31, 2011, 09:04:57 AM
I just built a 2012 LS460L and an S550, and they are almost identically equipped.  


LS460L: $78,521
S550: $110,165

That's a damn near $32,000 difference.

$32,000 is the premium on being able to look the golf club parking valet in the eye as you hand him the keys.
[edit] :devil:[/edit]

Quote from: Morris Minor on November 02, 2011, 08:37:13 AM
$32,000 is the premium on being able to look the golf club parking valet in the eye as you hand him the keys.

I can't tell if you're kidding or if you actually think someone would be embarrassed to own an $80,000 Lexus.

Quote from: 2o6 on November 01, 2011, 04:06:50 PM
I think Skoda or even SEAT is a better fit for the US than a cheap VW lineup.

Agreed, SEAT especially, as the styling has that Spanish flair that will set it apart.

Quote from: ifcar on November 02, 2011, 08:47:02 AM
I can't tell if you're kidding or if you actually think someone would be embarrassed to own an $80,000 Lexus.

There's at least one person in this thread who would.

Quote from: Raza  on November 02, 2011, 11:01:40 AM
Agreed, SEAT especially, as the styling has that Spanish flair that will set it apart.

Sure, the Ibiza but the rest of the lineup is a snooze fest.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on November 02, 2011, 05:03:17 AM
We're all wasting our time here with these discussions. I've got my point of view which is shared by many here (none of the classic car / enthusiast owners I work with consider Lexus a prestige brand for example) and you have your "value + V8 = luxury brand" (literally) point of view. Now even Hyundai can be considered a prestige brand. Wow! Whatever. Waste of time.

I won't bother responding to these discussions anymore. Waste of time.  :huh:

Prestige is acquired when you do something better than the competition and build a name for it.  With the LS, Lexus consistently offered a more reliable product (Especially throughout the 1990s...), with similar build quality, all while being substantially less expensive.  Nowadays, Lexus is considered a true contender in the luxury market, especially with the LS.  It offers incredible value for money, an incredible interior with outstanding materials and build quality, elegant interior and exterior styling, yet it still maintains the strong reliability aspect that Lexus has come to be synonymous with.  The experience at a Lexus dealership, not just in sales but in service as well, can be summed up in one word: Excellent.  They have their methods perfected.  If you give good customer service, it gives the customer a reason to return to the dealer for service, as well as buy another vehicle from the dealer.  The MB dealers in the Dallas area, as well as Oklahoma City, are notorious for treating their customers like crap, where as the Lexus dealers treat you like royalty.  Why should someone spend $30,000+ more for a vehicle that's not $30,000 better and receive terrible service?

Quote from: 68_427 on November 02, 2011, 11:57:47 AM
Sure, the Ibiza but the rest of the lineup is a snooze fest.

The Leon was awesome.  And hidden rear door handles!

Quote from: CJ on November 02, 2011, 01:10:21 PM

Prestige is acquired when you do something better than the competition and build a name for it.  With the LS, Lexus consistently offered a more reliable product (Especially throughout the 1990s...), with similar build quality, all while being substantially less expensive.  Nowadays, Lexus is considered a true contender in the luxury market, especially with the LS.  It offers incredible value for money, an incredible interior with outstanding materials and build quality, elegant interior and exterior styling, yet it still maintains the strong reliability aspect that Lexus has come to be synonymous with.  The experience at a Lexus dealership, not just in sales but in service as well, can be summed up in one word: Excellent.  They have their methods perfected.  If you give good customer service, it gives the customer a reason to return to the dealer for service, as well as buy another vehicle from the dealer.  The MB dealers in the Dallas area, as well as Oklahoma City, are notorious for treating their customers like crap, where as the Lexus dealers treat you like royalty.  Why should someone spend $30,000+ more for a vehicle that's not $30,000 better and receive terrible service?

You should tell that to the Japanese ... that's right, the same Japanese that build and market the thing (Lexus)

Quote from: 68_427 on November 02, 2011, 11:57:47 AM
Sure, the Ibiza but the rest of the lineup is a snooze fest.

Leon, Ibiza. The rest doesn't exist.

Quote from: AltinD on November 02, 2011, 02:15:00 PM
You should tell that to the Japanese ... that's right, the same Japanese that build and market the thing (Lexus)

I can imagine why a car tailored for the US market wouldn't do well in other markets.

Quote from: AltinD on November 02, 2011, 02:15:00 PM
You should tell that to the Japanese ... that's right, the same Japanese that build and market the thing (Lexus)

(http://www.dailybento.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/weird-japan.jpg)

Taking that into account, I'd say it's a good thing they don't like Lexus. Just means it's normal.

How many times does H&H have to fail for Wimmer to get the message???

I again point out that Toyota literally taught M-B, BMW and Audi (ALL car makers actually) how to build cars. 

Quote from: GoCougs on November 03, 2011, 12:44:27 AM
How many times does H&H have to fail for Wimmer to get the message???

I again point out that Toyota literally taught M-B, BMW and Audi (ALL car makers actually) how to build cars. 

LOL

Quote from: hotrodalex on November 02, 2011, 03:59:44 PM
(http://www.dailybento.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/weird-japan.jpg)

Taking that into account, I'd say it's a good thing they don't like Lexus. Just means it's normal.

What about the rest of the World, outside of North America? They don't like it even less then the Japanese do :p

Quote from: AltinD on November 03, 2011, 01:18:12 PM
LOL

To a certain extent his statement is true. All the major manufacturers have borrowed from the modern engineering system that Toyota developed (TPS). Modern automobiles are a product of that system. Mercedes couldn't build a 2011 E-Class if it was still operating under the same engineering philosophies that it used in 1980.

Quote from: Tave on November 03, 2011, 01:32:33 PM
To a certain extent his statement is true. All the major manufacturers have borrowed from the modern engineering system that Toyota developed (TPS). Modern automobiles are a product of that system. Mercedes couldn't build a 2011 E-Class if it was still operating under the same engineering philosophies that it used in 1980.

True.  The Toyota model is used as an example or case study in hundreds of undergraduate supply chain classes across the country.

Maybe "how to build cars" was a bit strong; Toyota taught them how to build modern cars. In fact Toyota taught pretty much all the world of manufacturing how to do so in modern fashion; from jetliners to iPods; how to build stuff.

Quote from: Raza  on November 03, 2011, 02:04:38 PM
True.  The Toyota model is used as an example or case study in hundreds of undergraduate supply chain classes across the country.

Yeah, I studied about that too in my econ class.

Quote from: AltinD on November 03, 2011, 01:19:27 PM
What about the rest of the World, outside of North America? They don't like it even less then the Japanese do :p

Why should I care about the rest of the world? I'm an American, we only acknowledge others when they have oil. :huh:

:lol:

 

Quote from: hotrodalex on November 04, 2011, 04:36:58 PM
Why should I care about the rest of the world? I'm an American, we only acknowledge others when they have oil. :huh:

:lol:

:clap:

Quote from: hotrodalex on November 04, 2011, 04:36:58 PM
Why should I care about the rest of the world? I'm an American, we only acknowledge others when they have oil. :huh:

:lol:

:lol::lol::lol:

UPDATE!

So my next car will very likely be...



CITROEN C5 Tourer HDI 165 Automatik  :rockon:

(http://www.resim5.com/resim/citroen-c5-tourer.jpg)

1997cc 4-cylinder common-rail-turbodiesel, 163-horsepower @ 3,750 RPM, 340 Nm @ 2,000 RPM, FWD, 6-speed A/T, 0-100 km/h = 10.2 seconds, 208 km/h top speed, Fuel economy (urban/rural/total) = 8.9/5.6/6.8 L / 100 km...and the HDI 165 comes standard with Citroens infamous hydropneumatic suspension.

I wouldn't mind the 140-hp HDI diesel but it's 6-speed M/T only.  :frown:

This is a very nice car. Polarizing design inside and out, roomy and very comfortable. Just what I am looking for. The Skoda Octavia and VW Passat are nice cars but in terms of styling they're rather a bit bland compared to the C5.

There are great leasing deals on it from the local Citroen dealership plus some discounts on some optional features. All I want for mine are heated seats, heated steering wheel and some nice rims (like in the photo above, those are the 18/19" sport rims).

Delivery times are four months and right now the 118i is still cutting it (just barely). I probably won't place the order until midway through 2012, just to be sure that I really need it (which I know I do).

It is with great certainty that this will be my next car for my business.  :mrcool:

I approve this message.

Will the leasing deals still be the same 6+ months from now?

Looks very nice (at least from the outside, the inside looks horrendous and cheap IMHO).
You will probably get money from Citroen if you take one, last time I looked at one, the Citroen dealer went from "why do you disturb me" to "I will clean the floor with a toothbrush for you if you only take one..." in 4 seconds. Citroen dealers in Germany are desperate - great discounts on everything too...

I wouldn't take the depreciation hit of a new Citroen and rather get or lease a slightly used one, though...

A lovely looking car. Would you get it with those sweet wheels too?

Quote from: 68_427 on November 12, 2011, 11:12:01 AM
Will the leasing deals still be the same 6+ months from now?

I'm sure they'll only get better from that point on (aka cheaper).

Quote from: Autobahn on November 12, 2011, 11:14:21 AM
Looks very nice (at least from the outside, the inside looks horrendous and cheap IMHO).
You will probably get money from Citroen if you take one, last time I looked at one, the Citroen dealer went from "why do you disturb me" to "I will clean the floor with a toothbrush for you if you only take one..." in 4 seconds. Citroen dealers in Germany are desperate - great discounts on everything too...

I wouldn't take the depreciation hit of a new Citroen and rather get or lease a slightly used one, though...

I'm not really the type who screams "cheap interior" on mainstream cars and makes a big fuzz about it, but I thought the interior is pretty decent on this car. Part of the interior charm is that awesome design. You feel like you're in a space ship.

The depreciation on this car is extreme though. At the same time, it's great value and more importantly is spacious and practical. Another thing - I'm a creative person and this is a creatively-styled car: it'll suit my character and the impression I will be making on customers (creative guy driving an "artistic car"). And I definitely want to keep it for a few years if I get it. The hydropneumatic suspension components last for 200,000 km according to the dealer before they'll need to be replaced.

Would have also loved an Alfa Romeo 159 Sportwagon but those are pretty cramped at the rear sacrificing overall practicality for style.

Quote from: Laconian on November 12, 2011, 11:36:36 AM
A lovely looking car. Would you get it with those sweet wheels too?

I want that color and those rims (18" sport rims). I hope they don't influence the comfort in a negative way as big rims usually do (and the gas mileage).

The C5 would look fantastic in metallic red, and the interior needs more color or something, everything looks like plastic, even though I'm sure it feels alright.  I think a tan interior with some decent looking fake wood would make a huge difference.

Quote from: 68_427 on November 12, 2011, 12:53:21 PM
The C5 would look fantastic in metallic red, and the interior needs more color or something, everything looks like plastic, even though I'm sure it feels alright.  I think a tan interior with some decent looking fake wood would make a huge difference.

Here's a normal non-glamor photo of the C5 interior. It's a pretty good interior IMO. I checked out the car at a Citroen dealership and the interior is better than that of the 118i I am currently driving. Plus, it has visual character. I'm not really a dashstroker. The interior is good. That's all that matters.  ;)

(http://img2.auto-motor-und-sport.de/Citroen-C5-HDi-200-Tourer-by-Carlsson-Cockpit-Lenkrad-fotoshowImage-eb2f6514-499017.jpg)



The speedometer and funky styling here are just awesome.

(http://photo.netcarshow.com/Citroen-C5_2011_photo_0a.jpg)

Looks really good to me!!

Quote from: Laconian on November 13, 2011, 07:07:46 PM
Looks really good to me!!

Me to!  :lol:


I spoke to my tax accountant today regarding the car. Ultimately the decision is up to me but he did warn me that Citroens depreciate like crazy in Germany and equally have a poor resale value here since they're considered exotic/unusual cars.

He actually advised me to look at a used...here it comes...Audi A4/A6 Avant, BMW 3er/5er Touring, Mercedes C/E-Class Wagon. Their depreciation is stable and their resale value is higher than the Citroen. Also, in terms of price and features they might actually be better value than leasing a new Citroen C5. Damn...  :confused:

As much as I want the Citroen C5 now, he's right. It might make more financial sense to go for something like a used C-Class, C220 CDI T-Modell Automatic comes to mind. Wow. Utterly I am being guided towards the direction I didn't want to take - buying a car from a premium brand for my business.

Quote from: 68_427 on November 12, 2011, 12:53:21 PM
The C5 would look fantastic in metallic red, and the interior needs more color or something, everything looks like plastic, even though I'm sure it feels alright.  I think a tan interior with some decent looking fake wood would make a huge difference.

If I were to make a parody of an American, I could not have done better.

Needs more fake wood?!

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4080/4827700805_5c2374bf66_z.jpg)

Quote from: 68_427 on November 14, 2011, 12:44:40 PM
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4080/4827700805_5c2374bf66_z.jpg)

Give me the wagon version (if there was one, maybe it was called Country Squire...) and 100 years worth of free gas and I'll be happy for life.  :praise:


Oh, and I absolutely would love to have one of these...  :wub:

(http://www.rocket100.com/olds_models/oldsmobile%20custom%20cruiser%201972.jpg)

Provided there is a 100 years of free gas in the deal somewhere...

Wimmer, check your Facebook inbox.

Quote from: CJ on November 14, 2011, 01:48:41 PM
Wimmer, check your Facebook inbox.

Ah, got it. I don't get any notifications in my email anymore regarding Facebook (blocked that stuff). ;-)

REPLIED!

Quote from: cawimmer430 on November 14, 2011, 10:50:18 AM
As much as I want the Citroen C5 now, he's right. It might make more financial sense to go for something like a used C-Class, C220 CDI T-Modell Automatic comes to mind. Wow. Utterly I am being guided towards the direction I didn't want to take - buying a car from a premium brand for my business.

Don't you hate it when rationality gets in the way?

If the Citroen has terrible resale, buy a gently used one for cheap!

Quote from: hotrodalex on November 14, 2011, 03:07:37 PM
If the Citroen has terrible resale, buy a gently used one for cheap!

If they are a terrible resale value and obscure in Germany, I doubt that he will be able to find one the way that he wants it since people are probably less likely to get rid of them since they will take such a huge hit and there are probably less of them running around.

S

K

O

D

A

The Skoda looks absolutely bland next to the Citroen.

Greek Porsche Cayenne

Quote from: cawimmer430 on November 14, 2011, 10:50:18 AM
As much as I want the Citroen C5 now, he's right. It might make more financial sense to go for something like a used C-Class, C220 CDI T-Modell Automatic comes to mind. Wow. Utterly I am being guided towards the direction I didn't want to take - buying a car from a premium brand for my business.

The universe has a way of finding its natural balance. God won?t let you turn yourself into a pariah. Get the goddammed used E-class wagon and be done with this. Sozialneid my a... it?s a fucking taxi in Germany.

Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on November 14, 2011, 05:43:31 PM
The universe has a way of finding its natural balance. God won?t let you turn yourself into a pariah. Get the goddammed used E-class wagon and be done with this. Sozialneid my a... it?s a fucking taxi in Germany.

If I am going to go for a Benz, C-Class all the way. Try finding a large parking space here for an E-Class. Some parking spaces here can't even hold a "tiny" BMW 1-Series anymore...

Isn't the Superb almost as big as a E-class anyway?

BTW, at the motorshow had the chance to see the prices, same as the Passat, lol?

Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on November 14, 2011, 05:43:31 PM
Sozialneid my a... it?s a fucking taxi in Germany.

:lol: :clap:

Quote from: AltinD on November 15, 2011, 08:14:16 AM
Isn't the Superb almost as big as a E-class anyway?

BTW, at the motorshow had the chance to see the prices, same as the Passat, lol?

Yeah, it is. It would be a great car but my small parking space and the overall parking situation in and outside of Munich will always come back to bite me in the ass. It's strange how parking spaces are so rare here...

Sounds to me like what you need is a used Suzuki Super Carry!

(http://www.sparky.ch/autos/img/i1648534-l-SUZUKI-Suzuki+Super+Carry.jpg)


Pros:  Easy to park, lots of room for passengers AND cargo, fuel efficient.

Cons:  Lack of Mercedes-grade History and Heritage?.

Too many horsepowers.

Quote from: Madman on November 15, 2011, 09:43:01 PM
Sounds to me like what you need is a used Suzuki Super Carry!

(http://www.sparky.ch/autos/img/i1648534-l-SUZUKI-Suzuki+Super+Carry.jpg)


Pros:  Easy to park, lots of room for passengers AND cargo, fuel efficient.

Cons:  Lack of Mercedes-grade History and Heritage?.

Trust me, that car is way to small for my needs.

And Suzuki dealerships are rarer than Citroen dealers here!

It looks like I really have to go for an S204 C-Class T-Modell. Even my dad is trying to push me in this direction. There are some great used options at MB Munich. I'm mainly looking at C220 CDI + Automatic combinations.


Hey Madman,

Can you recommend these?  :lol:


(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4126/4835029437_704bae09ff_o.jpg)

(http://chevywagons.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/olds.15112527_large.jpg)

What's the gas mileage on these babies? I know you're just dying to tell me how much they suck and how your grandfather owned one and transmission fell out at 514,000 miles and how the carburator sprayed fuel on the windshield instead of into the cylinders!   :winkguy:


I want a 1971-1973 Oldsmobile Delta 88!!!  :rockon:  :wub:

^If gasoline grew on trees...^  :tounge:

Oh my, oh my...  :wub:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6E3zMupMzk


WANT.

Here's my seating position in the 1er - seat pushed all the way back. It's the only way a 6'4" person can drive this thing comfortably.

(http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/6311/dsc0465dfa.jpg)


And as a result...

(http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/4813/dsc0467b.jpg)

Do you normally drive with so many pillows? That looks really uncomfortable.

Quote from: Tave on November 21, 2011, 09:22:44 AM
Do you normally drive with so many pillows? That looks really uncomfortable.

I do. The standard seats in the 1er are terrible - to thin, no side and back support, just terrible. For long-distance driving the standard seats literally "break your back (and ass)".

The pillows increase comfort. I use the big white pillow to sit on and the small blue pillow is placed behind my back to act as back support.

The sports seats are much more comfortable. I've tried sat in a friends 1er with the sport seats and they immediately felt so much better - more supportive and more comfortable (as well as sporty).

You're not looking at badly designed seats and a lack of space -- BMW is just sharing its Isetta history and heritage with you. If you want comfort, go buy a Toyota or something.

Quote from: ifcar on November 21, 2011, 10:12:36 AM
You're not looking at badly designed seats and a lack of space -- BMW is just sharing its Isetta history and heritage with you. If you want comfort, go buy a Toyota or something.

Ifcar can be funny. Damn.  :thumbsup:

If you have a sensitive lower back like I do, Wimmer, they sell ergonomically designed lightweight "seats" that sit on top of your seat. They have much better molded lumbar support.

Quote from: Laconian on November 21, 2011, 10:52:27 AM
If you have a sensitive lower back like I do, Wimmer, they sell ergonomically designed lightweight "seats" that sit on top of your seat. They have much better molded lumbar support.

I've never thought of that "complex solution" partly because the pillows I use really help.  ;)

Quote from: cawimmer430 on November 21, 2011, 10:56:43 AM
I've never thought of that "complex solution" partly because the pillows I use really help.  ;)

The Insignia has seats endorsed by some German back place thingy.

Quote from: 68_427 on November 21, 2011, 11:48:56 AM
The Insignia has seats endorsed by some German back place thingy.

?

Quote from: cawimmer430 on November 21, 2011, 03:02:43 PM
?

QuoteThe successful Insignia model will get an extra touch of luxury and comfort this summer, as the German manufacturer decided to fit the model with a ventilated seat which carries the Action for Healthy Backs (AGR-Aktion Gesunder R?cken) approval.

The seat, which comes as an option for EUR390, features a back-friendly base structure that can be adjusted individually to the natural curvature of the spine by the electropneumatically-controlled 4-way lumbar support integrated in the seat back.

The AGR seat has adjustment travel distances of 270 millimeters forwards/backwards and 65 millimeters up/down and comes with independent tilt adjustment of the seat cushion and back as well. Driver and front passenger seats are equipped with active head restraints that are height- and tilt-adjustable to prevent the effects of whiplash.

(http://mediaassets.gmeuropearchive.info/ispace/catalogue/177500/EN/zoom/266057.jpg)
(http://mediaassets.gmeuropearchive.info/ispace/catalogue/177500/EN/zoom/260080.jpg)

I don't know why you're not considering one of those, Wimmer.  They look excellent and are built to a very high standard. 

Quote from: cawimmer430 on November 21, 2011, 08:36:37 AM
Here's my seating position in the 1er - seat pushed all the way back. It's the only way a 6'4" person can drive this thing.

Wimmer, we are the same height. I think you drive too far back. I your legs can get fully extended with your feet on the footwall (behind the pedals), you are too close. The seatback may be too reclined as well. Your arms must be bent quite a bit at 9 and 3 in the correct driving position.

People can fit behind me in the 1M. My driving position used to suck until I took real driving lessons. Then again maybe your proportions are different.

Quote from: 68_427 on November 21, 2011, 03:44:26 PM
(http://mediaassets.gmeuropearchive.info/ispace/catalogue/177500/EN/zoom/266057.jpg)

http://www.agr-ev.de/

So I looked up their website. Never heard of these guys. I think BMW wants to downplay their role...  :lol:

Quote from: CJ on November 21, 2011, 04:50:38 PM
I don't know why you're not considering one of those, Wimmer.  They look excellent and are built to a very high standard. 

The Opel Insignia?

Nice car. Just not a big Opel fan here. Hence the Insignia was never on my list.

Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on November 21, 2011, 06:23:36 PM
Wimmer, we are the same height. I think you drive too far back. I your legs can get fully extended with your feet on the footwall (behind the pedals), you are too close. The seatback may be too reclined as well. Your arms must be bent quite a bit at 9 and 3 in the correct driving position.

People can fit behind me in the 1M. My driving position used to suck until I took real driving lessons. Then again maybe your proportions are different.

That's how I drive and feel comfortable in the car.  :praise:

I have long legs and for them to be fully extended and at ease in the car I need to slide the seat back all the way. When there are people riding with me I'll have to push the seat forward at least half-way. I can't tolerate that driving position for not more than a few hours and it makes driving the car a pain since I feel squished-in and cramped into my space.

I don't think you really have to worry about rear passengers in a 1M. But I'm transporting quite a bit of stuff and people (found some assistants to help me out) at times so I really need some more space in the next car.  ;)

WOW, Insignia have electrically controlled lumbar support and ventilated seats? WOW, how come no one else thought of those yet? :lol: