CarSPIN Forums

I've been seeing a few Law Enforcement Memorial plates lately:
(http://www.dol.wa.gov/images/lem_apply.jpg)

The thing is, I tend to notice them on cars that are massive ticket magnets. Just today I saw them on two Lamborghinis, a red NSX, a Viper, and a G37S. About a year ago I saw a Gallardo, a Spyker Laviolette, and a CL65AMG jousting back and forth on I-405, all of them with these LEM plates as well.

Some possible explanations:

• Speed demons buy them in an attempt to curry favor with traffic cops
• Speed demons buy them in an attempt to masquerade as off-duty LEOs
• Speed demons buy them because they sympathize with the plight of fine officers who fall in the line of duty
• Speed demons are former cops who have somehow struck it very, very rich
• The sampling is biased due to the fact that I ignore most cars except for fast ones

What do you think?

Why is this in The Garage?

Whoops! I thought I had clicked Driving and the Law. Moving...

Speed demons who want to appear to be off duty cops probably are the main people who buy those plates.

A real cop wouldn't need those plates, and few real cops drive really expensive sports cars.

I cannot speak for others here, but I never paid much attention to those types of things. 

Once, after I handed a guy his ticket he looked at me completely in shock and said, "But I am a supporter of the FOP."

My response, "Well, sir, that is very nice but I do not belong to the FOP.  You have ten days to take care of this citation."

Quote from: hounddog on May 22, 2009, 11:05:18 PM
I cannot speak for others here, but I never paid much attention to those types of things. 

Once, after I handed a guy his ticket he looked at me completely in shock and said, "But I am a supporter of the FOP."

My response, "Well, sir, that is very nice but I do not belong to the FOP.  You have ten days to take care of this citation."

That's the way it should be.  Paying $35 a year or something like that for a card or special license plate should not be a 'get out of jail free' card for somebody to break the law.

Well, there's no way that anybody in any of those vehicles might be mistaken for an off duty or retired LEO. No cop has that kind of money.

Probably just people trying to curry favor and get out of a ticket. Like Tony, such tactics don't work with me. In fact, I usually look alot closer at the vehicles covered with "FOP Supporter" stickers...the dirtbags love to put those things on their cars, thinking that a LEO will ignore them or not dig around quite so hard.

Quote from: bing_oh on May 23, 2009, 06:32:18 AM
Well, there's no way that anybody in any of those vehicles might be mistaken for an off duty or retired LEO. No cop has that kind of money.

Probably just people trying to curry favor and get out of a ticket. Like Tony, such tactics don't work with me. In fact, I usually look alot closer at the vehicles covered with "FOP Supporter" stickers...the dirtbags love to put those things on their cars, thinking that a LEO will ignore them or not dig around quite so hard.

I actually have some stickers because I contribute to a couple of police-related causes, but I keep them at home.  I don't make the contributions so I can weasel my way out of a ticket, if it comes to that.  I don't like that game.

I read somewhere that appearing to be an off-duty police officer is one of the best ways to avoid a ticket.  Most cops won't bother pulling over someone they think is an off-duty LEO, because they're not going to write a ticket so it's not worth the bother.  There were certain tips on how to act like an LEO that I read, but I don't really remember them specifically.

Quote from: bing_oh on May 23, 2009, 06:32:18 AM
Well, there's no way that anybody in any of those vehicles might be mistaken for an off duty or retired LEO. No cop has that kind of money.

For the Lambo and the AMG, probably not, but I could definately see an LEO being able to afford an NSX, older gen Viper or G37S depending on what force he or she is with.

Quote from: dazzleman on May 23, 2009, 07:17:35 AM
I actually have some stickers because I contribute to a couple of police-related causes, but I keep them at home.  I don't make the contributions so I can weasel my way out of a ticket, if it comes to that.  I don't like that game.

I read somewhere that appearing to be an off-duty police officer is one of the best ways to avoid a ticket.  Most cops won't bother pulling over someone they think is an off-duty LEO, because they're not going to write a ticket so it's not worth the bother.  There were certain tips on how to act like an LEO that I read, but I don't really remember them specifically.

Wouldn't that count as impersonating a police officer?

Quote from: R-inge on May 23, 2009, 09:00:58 AM
Wouldn't that count as impersonating a police officer?

:huh:
No, nothing just like.  Just things like driving style, the way you react when you see a cop, etc.  Insider tricks.  No actual impersonation.

Quote from: dazzleman on May 23, 2009, 09:08:09 AM
:huh:
No, nothing just like.  Just things like driving style, the way you react when you see a cop, etc.  Insider tricks.  No actual impersonation.

Oh, I see.  I misunderstood.

Quote from: dazzleman on May 23, 2009, 07:17:35 AM
I actually have some stickers because I contribute to a couple of police-related causes, but I keep them at home.  I don't make the contributions so I can weasel my way out of a ticket, if it comes to that.  I don't like that game.

I read somewhere that appearing to be an off-duty police officer is one of the best ways to avoid a ticket.  Most cops won't bother pulling over someone they think is an off-duty LEO, because they're not going to write a ticket so it's not worth the bother.  There were certain tips on how to act like an LEO that I read, but I don't really remember them specifically.

I'm not sure how you could appear to be a LEO in how you drive...at least, not enough to prevent getting pulled over. Admittedly, LEO's tend to have certain driving habits, but I don't think that any of them would make me not stop a vehicle. There are also personal behaviors that would peg me as a LEO during the contact phase of a traffic stop, but most LEO's would come right out and ask if I was a cop if it would make a difference. We're not exactly shy about asking questions.

Quote from: bing_oh on May 23, 2009, 12:45:59 PM
I'm not sure how you could appear to be a LEO in how you drive...at least, not enough to prevent getting pulled over. Admittedly, LEO's tend to have certain driving habits, but I don't think that any of them would make me not stop a vehicle. There are also personal behaviors that would peg me as a LEO during the contact phase of a traffic stop, but most LEO's would come right out and ask if I was a cop if it would make a difference. We're not exactly shy about asking questions.

That makes sense.

Then you'd be screwed if the cop started asking you questions about what force you were with, where you were from, what position you held, etc.

:mask: :lol:

Here in New Jersey, off-duty LEOs and their family members display full-size golden badge replicas in their front windshield beside their registration sticker. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: this very public, in-your-face practice of displaying a "get out of jail free card" in public has created more resentment and ill-will on the part of the public towards police than anything else. In some ways, I get that letting fellow cops and their family members off from tickets is a perk that comes with the job, but another part of me wishes we could stop this practice so everyone plays on a level field.

I don't even mind letting off a fellow officer, but (around here) husbands/wives, children, cousins, etc. all get the metal shields to carry around with a copy of their relative's business card to avoid tickets, which I think is actually pretty sleazy.

Here's Jersey's plate, by the way:

(http://plates.hfradio.net/nj-6641.jpg)

Quote from: TurboDan on May 24, 2009, 03:15:19 PM
Here's Jersey's plate, by the way:

(http://plates.hfradio.net/nj-6641.jpg)

I hate license plates.

Quote from: TurboDan on May 24, 2009, 03:13:42 PM
Here in New Jersey, off-duty LEOs and their family members display full-size golden badge replicas in their front windshield beside their registration sticker. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: this very public, in-your-face practice of displaying a "get out of jail free card" in public has created more resentment and ill-will on the part of the public towards police than anything else. In some ways, I get that letting fellow cops and their family members off from tickets is a perk that comes with the job, but another part of me wishes we could stop this practice so everyone plays on a level field.

I don't even mind letting off a fellow officer, but (around here) husbands/wives, children, cousins, etc. all get the metal shields to carry around with a copy of their relative's business card to avoid tickets, which I think is actually pretty sleazy.

Officers are supposed to obey the same traffic laws as everybody else.  Off-duty officers especially, but even on-duty officers are not supposed to be breaking traffic laws unless they need to do so in order to perform their duties (e.g. running a redlight to respond to an emergency more quickly, speeding to catch a speeder, etc) and when doing so, their lights and siren are supposed to be on barring special circumstances.

The disregard for traffic laws that I see by police on a regular basis simply because, by virtue of "professional courtesy", nobody will write them a ticket is a pet peeve of mine.  IMO, it's time somebody started to watch the watchmen.  And their families certainly should not be getting a free pass.

Quote from: TurboDan on May 24, 2009, 03:13:42 PM
Here in New Jersey, off-duty LEOs and their family members display full-size golden badge replicas in their front windshield beside their registration sticker. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: this very public, in-your-face practice of displaying a "get out of jail free card" in public has created more resentment and ill-will on the part of the public towards police than anything else. In some ways, I get that letting fellow cops and their family members off from tickets is a perk that comes with the job, but another part of me wishes we could stop this practice so everyone plays on a level field.

I don't even mind letting off a fellow officer, but (around here) husbands/wives, children, cousins, etc. all get the metal shields to carry around with a copy of their relative's business card to avoid tickets, which I think is actually pretty sleazy.

I've participated in a few discussions about this on a LE board. The courtesy badges seem to be a very region-specific thing, mostly around the New York/New Jersey area. In 10 years of LE, I've never seen any such practice in the Midwest. Opinions on professional courtesy vary greatly and tend to make for some pretty heated discussions when the topic comes up on LE boards.

Quote from: MX793 on May 24, 2009, 04:08:33 PM
Officers are supposed to obey the same traffic laws as everybody else.  Off-duty officers especially, but even on-duty officers are not supposed to be breaking traffic laws unless they need to do so in order to perform their duties (e.g. running a redlight to respond to an emergency more quickly, speeding to catch a speeder, etc) and when doing so, their lights and siren are supposed to be on barring special circumstances.

The disregard for traffic laws that I see by police on a regular basis simply because, by virtue of "professional courtesy", nobody will write them a ticket is a pet peeve of mine.  IMO, it's time somebody started to watch the watchmen.  And their families certainly should not be getting a free pass.

It's not a matter of "professional courtesy" that an officer in a marked cruiser doesn't get citations when driving contrary to traffic laws. In most states, public safety vehicles are exempt from traffic laws. It's not realistic for me to drive the speed limit on the way to every call, nor is it realistic for me to run lights and sirens to every call. There are urgent calls that require a quicker response but aren't of such a priority to necessitate a hot run. For those, you might very well see me driving above the speed limit without my overhead lights and sirens activated. I'm not doing this for the thrill of speeding or just because I like disregarding the law, I'm doing this because my duty to the public necessitates a quick response to a call for service.

As for off duty, as I've said, that's a hot topic in LE. One arguement is that, as enforcers of the law, we should be held to a higher standard. The other is that we give plenty of professional courtesy to others (ie doctors, nurses, firefighters, soldiers, etc) and alot of warnings to the average joe, so why don't we deserve a break? Quite frankly, I can see both sides of the coin. In the end, I'm not sure why it would be a pet peeve of yours..you have no idea if the guy getting a warning is a LEO when you drive past a traffic stop, nor do you know if he's getting the warning because he "badged" the officer or because he was just another citizen who got a warning instead of a ticket.

I really don't believe in professional courtesy.

If the law is really about safety, and you break the law, you should be ticketed and penalized.  Illegal actions are no less unsafe because they are committed by an off-duty LEO, a doctor, nurse, soldier, etc.  There's no real reason that people without these connections should be punished for their illegal actions, while others are not.

I think that the proliferation of "professional courtesy" really does undermine respect for the law, because it suggests that the law isn't really about safety, but something else, such as collecting money for the state.

Having said all that, I realize it's not all black and white.  The law is partly about safety and partly about collecting money, and how much is one part versus the other depends upon the circumstances.

I accept professional courtesy as a perk for LEOs themselves, but I think it's wrong when it extends to their friends, family, whole other professions, etc.  It starts to become that the guy who gets busted and accepts his punishment is the real chump, since there are so many others doing the same thing or worse and getting off scot free.

I'm the sort of guy to accept my punishment without rancor when I get busted for breaking the law, but I do think other people doing the same thing should the same treatemnt, regardless of who they know.

Quote from: bing_oh on May 24, 2009, 04:30:01 PM
It's not a matter of "professional courtesy" that an officer in a marked cruiser doesn't get citations when driving contrary to traffic laws. In most states, public safety vehicles are exempt from traffic laws. It's not realistic for me to drive the speed limit on the way to every call, nor is it realistic for me to run lights and sirens to every call. There are urgent calls that require a quicker response but aren't of such a priority to necessitate a hot run. For those, you might very well see me driving above the speed limit without my overhead lights and sirens activated. I'm not doing this for the thrill of speeding or just because I like disregarding the law, I'm doing this because my duty to the public necessitates a quick response to a call for service.

As for off duty, as I've said, that's a hot topic in LE. One arguement is that, as enforcers of the law, we should be held to a higher standard. The other is that we give plenty of professional courtesy to others (ie doctors, nurses, firefighters, soldiers, etc) and alot of warnings to the average joe, so why don't we deserve a break? Quite frankly, I can see both sides of the coin. In the end, I'm not sure why it would be a pet peeve of yours..you have no idea if the guy getting a warning is a LEO when you drive past a traffic stop, nor do you know if he's getting the warning because he "badged" the officer or because he was just another citizen who got a warning instead of a ticket.

My duty to get to work on time necessitates a quick response, but I don't get a god fucking damn exemption from all traffic laws. That's a giant load of crap.

Quote from: NACar on May 24, 2009, 04:44:54 PM
My duty to get to work on time necessitates a quick response, but I don't get a god fucking damn exemption from all traffic laws. That's a giant load of crap.

Your logic is off, Nick.

If an officer is truly responding to an emergency, he should be exempt from traffic laws.  Of course, I recognize that this is often abused, so I'm just talking in theory.  But you getting to work is not an emergency.

Quote from: dazzleman on May 24, 2009, 04:43:28 PM
I really don't believe in professional courtesy.

If the law is really about safety, and you break the law, you should be ticketed and penalized.  Illegal actions are no less unsafe because they are committed by an off-duty LEO, a doctor, nurse, soldier, etc.  There's no real reason that people without these connections should be punished for their illegal actions, while others are not.

I think that the proliferation of "professional courtesy" really does undermine respect for the law, because it suggests that the law isn't really about safety, but something else, such as collecting money for the state.

Having said all that, I realize it's not all black and white.  The law is partly about safety and partly about collecting money, and how much is one part versus the other depends upon the circumstances.

I accept professional courtesy as a perk for LEOs themselves, but I think it's wrong when it extends to their friends, family, whole other professions, etc.  It starts to become that the guy who gets busted and accepts his punishment is the real chump, since there are so many others doing the same thing or worse and getting off scot free.

I'm the sort of guy to accept my punishment without rancor when I get busted for breaking the law, but I do think other people doing the same thing should the same treatemnt, regardless of who they know.

Generally, at least for me, professional courtesy kicks in when we're talking about a boarderline violation...a violation that, depending on alot of other factors, might go either way for citation vs warning. There are plenty of violations where professional courtesy just doesn't apply for me (dui's a great example of that). When I pull over the average joe for those same boaderline violations, I'll take into account things like attitude and reasons given for the violation.

Quote from: dazzleman on May 24, 2009, 04:53:40 PM
Your logic is off, Nick.

If an officer is truly responding to an emergency, he should be exempt from traffic laws.  Of course, I recognize that this is often abused, so I'm just talking in theory.  But you getting to work is not an emergency.

bing-oh's "urgent calls" to pickup day-old donuts before they get thrown out is probably less important than my need to find and report insect infestation before they ruin an entire crop of blueberries.

Quote from: NACar on May 24, 2009, 04:58:12 PM
bing-oh's "urgent calls" to pickup day-old donuts before they get thrown out is probably less important than my need to find and report insect infestation before they ruin an entire crop of blueberries.

:rolleyes:

Quote from: bing_oh on May 24, 2009, 05:00:17 PM
:rolleyes:

Nick always argues the side of stupid, don't get too OMGWTFBBQ over him...

Quote from: bing_oh on May 24, 2009, 05:00:17 PM
:rolleyes:

Lots of people have "important" business that needs to get done quickly.

Quote from: Minpin on May 24, 2009, 05:01:27 PM
Nick always argues the side of stupid, don't get too OMGWTFBBQ over him...

That's why he only got a :rolleyes: and nothing more substantive.

Quote from: NACar on May 24, 2009, 05:01:57 PM
Lots of people have "important" business that needs to get done quickly.

When's the last time your "important business" involved the possible serious injury or death of another person? I can actually tell you the last time mine did...

Quote from: dazzleman on May 24, 2009, 04:53:40 PM
Your logic is off, Nick.

If an officer is truly responding to an emergency, he should be exempt from traffic laws.  Of course, I recognize that this is often abused, so I'm just talking in theory.  But you getting to work is not an emergency.

If we're going to play by the book, then traffic laws are about safety. If that's the case, then breaking those laws is unsafe. Emergency vehicles have lights and sirens so that they can be safe while they break those laws. If they are breaking those laws without lights and sirens, they are being unsafe, and therefore they should receive punishment. If there is an emergency urgent enough to speed while en route, it is urgent enough to turn on the lights and sirens.

The other thing emergency vehicle operators have is training. But, if we use that logic to allow them to break traffic laws, then we should also let civilians who have received advanced defensive driving, advanced car control, and even race driving training break traffic laws. In which case, sign me up!

training-- race school examption

Quote from: NACar on May 24, 2009, 05:04:55 PM
Go fuck yourself old man. Everything you and your wife say is crap. <- and that's all you deserve :rolleyes:

You have bing and houndog/rohan/Mrs Houndog confused. Otherwise, you're about right...

Note that if you keep it up, they'll probably ban you again. That would be boring.

Quote from: bing_oh on May 24, 2009, 05:07:29 PM
When's the last time your "important business" involved the possible serious injury or death of another person? I can actually tell you the last time mine did...

If someone's going to die, flip on your lights and sirens and get the hell there ASAP, but you're just need to hurry up and write a parking ticket, what the heck do you need to run red lights and drive twice the speed limit for?

Quote from: NACar on May 24, 2009, 05:11:47 PM
multiple accounts are not allowed

Make sure you report that to one of the admins. You're gonna look like a douch when my IP from Ohio doesn't match Tony's IP in Michigan...

Quote from: Psilos on May 24, 2009, 05:13:01 PM
You have bing and houndog/rohan/Mrs Houndog confused. Otherwise, you're about right...

Note that if you keep it up, they'll probably ban you again. That would be boring.

I swear to you that they are all the same person.

Quote from: Psilos on May 24, 2009, 05:11:09 PM
If we're going to play by the book, then traffic laws are about safety. If that's the case, then breaking those laws is unsafe. Emergency vehicles have lights and sirens so that they can be safe while they break those laws. If they are breaking those laws without lights and sirens, they are being unsafe, and therefore they should receive punishment. If there is an emergency urgent enough to speed while en route, it is urgent enough to turn on the lights and sirens.

The other thing emergency vehicle operators have is training. But, if we use that logic to allow them to break traffic laws, then we should also let civilians who have received advanced defensive driving, advanced car control, and even race driving training break traffic laws. In which case, sign me up!

training-- race school examption

There are plenty of circumstances where responding to a higher priority call without lights and sirens is preferred. In some of these cases, responding hot could actually make things worse. There are circumstances where there's a tactical necessity to arrive blacked out...no lights (at all!), no sirens...so that the bad guy doesn't know LE is there. Those calls are frequently extremely urgent, however.

There are also lower priority calls that need a quick response but aren't classified as "emergencies." Those are calls where I would respond slightly over the speed limit, but still obey things like traffic lights and stop signs. Thses calls are actually quite frequent.

For low priority calls, I'm generally at the speed limit and following all traffic laws.

If you have doubts about this stuff, you can always go ride with a local PD. It's kinda tough to explain on the internet but pretty easy when you're experiencing it.

Quote from: Psilos on May 24, 2009, 05:11:09 PM
If we're going to play by the book, then traffic laws are about safety. If that's the case, then breaking those laws is unsafe. Emergency vehicles have lights and sirens so that they can be safe while they break those laws. If they are breaking those laws without lights and sirens, they are being unsafe, and therefore they should receive punishment. If there is an emergency urgent enough to speed while en route, it is urgent enough to turn on the lights and sirens.

The other thing emergency vehicle operators have is training. But, if we use that logic to allow them to break traffic laws, then we should also let civilians who have received advanced defensive driving, advanced car control, and even race driving training break traffic laws. In which case, sign me up!

training-- race school examption

I agree with you.  If an LEO is breaking traffic laws flagrantly and not using sirens and lights, that can be dangerous, and it probably means that he's not going to a real emergency in a lot of cases.  I think LEOs have to be allowed more leeway, but too much undermines respect for the law.

Quote from: NACar on May 24, 2009, 05:14:55 PM
I swear to you that they are all the same person.

Can't say I disagree too much. But, since there seems to be some sort of hallowed place for them around here, I think I'll be S-ing TFU to avoid moderator intervention...

Quote from: bing_oh on May 24, 2009, 05:26:59 PM
There are plenty of circumstances where responding to a higher priority call without lights and sirens is preferred. In some of these cases, responding hot could actually make things worse. There are circumstances where there's a tactical necessity to arrive blacked out...no lights (at all!), no sirens...so that the bad guy doesn't know LE is there. Those calls are frequently extremely urgent, however.

There are also lower priority calls that need a quick response but aren't classified as "emergencies." Those are calls where I would respond slightly over the speed limit, but still obey things like traffic lights and stop signs. Thses calls are actually quite frequent.

For low priority calls, I'm generally at the speed limit and following all traffic laws.

If you have doubts about this stuff, you can always go ride with a local PD. It's kinda tough to explain on the internet but pretty easy when you're experiencing it.

I agree with that, more or less. The blacked out thing makes obvious sense, but the lower priority is, eh, sketchy. It's up to officer discretion, really, and that's not good for PR. I recognize that playing by the book is not always practical from the officer's POV, especially because I don't even own the book ( ;) ). I do know that it is very common for a cop to pass me on the freeway when I'm already speeding a bit (having slowed down because a cop was behind me), and that doesn't ever seem right.

Quote from: Psilos on May 24, 2009, 05:28:51 PM
Can't say I disagree too much. But, since there seems to be some sort of hallowed place for them around here, I think I'll be S-ing TFU to avoid moderator intervention...

Nick was a little rude up there.  I don't think bing_oh warranted that.  Everybody should be treated with equal respect here.

Quote from: dazzleman on May 24, 2009, 05:38:09 PM
Nick was a little rude up there.  I don't think bing_oh warranted that.  Everybody should be treated with equal respect here.

Agreed, at least until proven otherwise.

Quote from: dazzleman on May 24, 2009, 05:38:09 PM
Nick was a little rude up there.  I don't think bing_oh warranted that.  Everybody should be treated with equal respect here.

I do not respect those who are above the law. Nothing I say is important, for they are far greater beings than I.

Quote from: Psilos on May 24, 2009, 05:39:34 PM
Agreed, at least until proven otherwise.

I honestly think the LEOs on this site are a good bunch of guys.  Hounddog and Rohan are probably the most hard core, but I can see where they're coming from.  Bing_oh seems very reasonable, and Greg (Catman) is really cool.  In any case, you don't have to agree with everything a person says to respect and like that person.  I respect and like all of them.

Quote from: TurboDan on May 24, 2009, 03:13:42 PM
Here in New Jersey, off-duty LEOs and their family members display full-size golden badge replicas in their front windshield beside their registration sticker. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: this very public, in-your-face practice of displaying a "get out of jail free card" in public has created more resentment and ill-will on the part of the public towards police than anything else.

That is horsehockey, wrapped up into a nice tight quasi-anti-police wrapping.

What is the difference between police putting a sticker on their vehicle displaying their profession vs. a fireman putting the maltese cross and other silly fireman related stickers on their cars?

Are you just as resentful of them? 
Because if you are not, then you, my friend, are not being fair.

Most police officers do not put things like that on their cars.  Those who do, do so because they are proud of their chosen profession not because it will help them "get out of jail free."  We have badges and identification cards, we do not NEED any type of stickers on our car to get out of speeding tickets in most cases.

Quote from: hounddog on May 24, 2009, 05:43:39 PM
That is horsehockey, wrapped up into a nice tight quasi-anti-police wrapping.

What is the difference between police putting a sticker on their vehicle displaying their profession vs. a fireman putting the maltese cross and other silly fireman related stickers on their cars?

Are you just as resentful of them? 
Because if you are not, then you, my friend, are not being fair.

Most police officers do not put things like that on their cars.  Those who do, do so because they are proud of their chosen profession not because it will help them "get out of jail free."  We have badges and identification cards, we do not NEED any type of stickers on our car to get out of speeding tickets in most cases.

Right, so how many times have you used your "get out of jail free card"?

Quote from: hounddog on May 24, 2009, 05:43:39 PM
That is horsehockey, wrapped up into a nice tight quasi-anti-police wrapping.

What is the difference between police putting a sticker on their vehicle displaying their profession vs. a fireman putting the maltese cross and other silly fireman related stickers on their cars?

Are you just as resentful of them? 
Because if you are not, then you, my friend, are not being fair.

Most police officers do not put things like that on their cars.  Those who do, do so because they are proud of their chosen profession not because it will help them "get out of jail free."  We have badges and identification cards, we do not NEED any type of stickers on our car to get out of speeding tickets in most cases.

That last line is certainly true.  You guys don't need stickers or special plates.  I think that was Dan's point in a way, that those stickers were being used by non-LEOs to get out of tickets because the 'professional courtesy' practices in New Jersey have been too broad.  Knowing that state as I do, I have little reason to believe that he's wrong about that.

Quote from: NACar on May 24, 2009, 05:14:55 PM
I swear to you that they are all the same person.

:rolleyes:

Why, because we all are conservative?  Because Randy and I are both police officers? (I am now retired)   Because Kat and I have been married for many years and think alike?

Get a grip, and step away from the marijuana.

Quote from: hounddog on May 24, 2009, 05:49:28 PM
:rolleyes:

Why, because we all are conservative?  Because Randy and I are both police officers?  Because Kat and I have been married for many years and think alike?

Get a grip, and step away from the marijuana.

Nick's bitter because he keeps getting tickets for not getting his car inspected, because he can't afford the necessary repairs.

Quote from: dazzleman on May 24, 2009, 05:50:56 PM
Nick's bitter because he keeps getting tickets for not getting his car inspected, because he can't afford the necessary repairs.

I wonder if he knows that there are in fact, more than one police officer in the country?

Or, that many (read; most) police officers, especially ones that are over 30, are very conservative?

Quote from: Psilos on May 24, 2009, 05:34:41 PM
I agree with that, more or less. The blacked out thing makes obvious sense, but the lower priority is, eh, sketchy. It's up to officer discretion, really, and that's not good for PR. I recognize that playing by the book is not always practical from the officer's POV, especially because I don't even own the book ( ;) ). I do know that it is very common for a cop to pass me on the freeway when I'm already speeding a bit (having slowed down because a cop was behind me), and that doesn't ever seem right.

I'm well aware of public perception...despite what some people around here might think, I didn't pop out of the womb wearing blue, so I didn't understand the realities of alot of this stuff until I was actually in LE and doing it myself.

Let me give you an example of a common priority/non-emergency response. Let's say that there's a lone officer on a traffic stop on the other side of town. The car he has stopped has five guys in it and they're acting suspiciously. There hasn't been any hostile action by the five guys, but the officer is starting to dig and things aren't adding up. He requests backup before he digs any further and I'm the only one available...but I'm on the other side of town. This call doesn't justify an emergency run. I'm not going to increase the danger level by busting through lights and stop signs to get there. However, the faster I get there to back him up, the less likely that someone in the suspicioius car is going to do something stupid that makes it an emergency (statistically, attacks on multiple officers are much less than attacks on lone officers, so the simple presence of a backup officer makes things safer). For that, I'll respond above the speed limit.

And that's just one example...there are countless different circumstances where a quicker response is necessary but an emergency one is not.

Like I said before, if you have doubts then make arrangements to ride with an officer. You won't see everything, but you'll get a better understanding of how LE works and how your tax dollars are being spent. Alot of the mystery gets stripped away after you've seen what happens on the street first-hand...and it's nothing like COPS.

And, I can even understand his bitterness regarding state inspections.  Fortunately, we do not have them here.  Yet. 

Quote from: dazzleman on May 24, 2009, 05:42:24 PM
I honestly think the LEOs on this site are a good bunch of guys.  Hounddog and Rohan are probably the most hard core, but I can see where they're coming from.  Bing_oh seems very reasonable, and Greg (Catman) is really cool.  In any case, you don't have to agree with everything a person says to respect and like that person.  I respect and like all of them.

Well, since we're naming names, and since I'm certain they feel the same about me, I have very little respect for hounddog and rohan (other than their taste in beer). Not only do we not agree on anything (except beer), but I have never got any sense that they respected anyone that doesn't agree with them, including and especially me. I find it difficult to respect someone who bullies and berates everyone, and makes almost no attempt to understand the opposing side of an argument.

I do respect the rest of the LEOs on the BB, because they do the opposite of the above. :lol: I respect the LEO profession, but it is sometimes difficult to respect individual LEOs and agency policies, etc.

Quote from: NACar on May 24, 2009, 05:46:05 PM
Right, so how many times have you used your "get out of jail free card"?

Are you referring to my police related stickers on my car?  Never had one.

Quote from: hounddog on May 24, 2009, 05:52:24 PM
I wonder if he knows that there are in fact, more than one police officer in the country?

Or, that many (read; most) police officers, especially ones that are over 30, are very conservative?

Nick is actually pretty conservative too, except that he has some issues with authority and is on the libertarian side, which most LEOs aren't.

It makes sense that LEOs are conservative, for two reasons.  First, that sort of personality would be more attracted to law enforcement in the first place.  Second, your experiences as an officer would probably turn you conservative, even if you weren't before.

I never knew a cop who wasn't conservative.  My uncle was a prison guard, and he was also ultra-conservative.  Dealing with criminals makes you conservative, because in general liberals deny the reality of the evil behind most criminal activity, while conservatism is more realistic about it.

Quote from: NACar on May 24, 2009, 05:46:05 PM
Right, so how many times have you used your "get out of jail free card"?

Never. Though I doubt that you'll believe it, I have a very personal belief in individual responsibility. I'll accept any citation that I receive with a smile and a "thank you, officer." If I deserved the ticket, I'll pay it promptly and courteously.

Quote from: hounddog on May 24, 2009, 05:54:48 PM
Are you referring to my police related stickers on my car?  Never had one.

You implied that you didn't need stickers on your car because you just flash your badge whenever you get pulled over.

Quote from: Psilos on May 24, 2009, 05:53:09 PM
Well, since we're naming names, and since I'm certain they feel the same about me, I have very little respect for hounddog and rohan (other than their taste in beer). Not only do we not agree on anything (except beer), but I have never got any sense that they respected anyone that doesn't agree with them, including and especially me. I find it difficult to respect someone who bullies and berates everyone, and makes almost no attempt to understand the opposing side of an argument.

I do respect the rest of the LEOs on the BB, because they do the opposite of the above. :lol: I respect the LEO profession, but it is sometimes difficult to respect individual LEOs and agency policies, etc.

I respond in kind to what is said to me.  Randy does the same.

The bigger problem is that you and others here do not listen to what is said, almost ever.  You ask questions, we give you the answers, and you tell us we are wrong or that we are just spouting institutional blah blah blah. 

It gets old very fast.  When I came here I tried very hard to be articulate and answer questions to the best of my ability.  But why should I do that when the above is the response. 

I just got very tired of it and no longer really try very hard. 

If you want me, and I suspect Randy as well, to treat you better you might wish to remember that road runs both ways.

And for the record, I hate NO ONE.  It is absolutely against my beliefs.

Quote from: NACar on May 24, 2009, 05:56:54 PM
You implied that you didn't need stickers on your car because you just flash your badge whenever you get pulled over.

I have a gun whenever I get pulled over.  It would be pretty impolite for me to not tell them I have a gun. 

They usually ask why I have it.

Quote from: dazzleman on May 24, 2009, 05:55:18 PM
Nick is actually pretty conservative too, except that he has some issues with authority and is on the libertarian side, which most LEOs aren't.

It makes sense that LEOs are conservative, for two reasons.  First, that sort of personality would be more attracted to law enforcement in the first place.  Second, your experiences as an officer would probably turn you conservative, even if you weren't before.

I never knew a cop who wasn't conservative.  My uncle was a prison guard, and he was also ultra-conservative.  Dealing with criminals makes you conservative, because in general liberals deny the reality of the evil behind most criminal activity, while conservatism is more realistic about it.

The only authority that I have issues with is authority that blindly enforces unrealistic and stupid rules, but does not follow them.

Quote from: bing_oh on May 24, 2009, 05:14:39 PM
Make sure you report that to one of the admins. You're gonna look like a douch when my IP from Ohio doesn't match Tony's IP in Michigan...

I'm not even going to bother looking it up. NACar has seriously turned into a douche as of late. Whatever.

Quote from: TurboDan on May 24, 2009, 06:01:25 PM
I'm not even going to bother looking it up. NACar has seriously turned into a douche as of late. Whatever.

Thanks. You've always been a bit of a douche, yourself.

Quote from: bing_oh on May 24, 2009, 05:56:45 PM
I'll accept any citation that I receive with a smile and a "thank you, officer." If I deserved the ticket, I'll pay it promptly and courteously.

Both Randy and I have said this several times before, only to be ridiculed and told we were lying or such nonsense. 

Quote from: TurboDan on May 24, 2009, 06:01:25 PM
I'm not even going to bother looking it up. NACar has seriously turned into a douche as of late. Whatever.

Thanks, Dan. At least somebody believes I'm not a Tonybot. :lol:

Quote from: Psilos on May 24, 2009, 05:53:09 PM
Well, since we're naming names, and since I'm certain they feel the same about me, I have very little respect for hounddog and rohan (other than their taste in beer). Not only do we not agree on anything (except beer), but I have never got any sense that they respected anyone that doesn't agree with them, including and especially me. I find it difficult to respect someone who bullies and berates everyone, and makes almost no attempt to understand the opposing side of an argument.

I do respect the rest of the LEOs on the BB, because they do the opposite of the above. :lol: I respect the LEO profession, but it is sometimes difficult to respect individual LEOs and agency policies, etc.

I like hounddog and rohan.  They can be rough when people don't agree with them, but they're good guys IMO.  You surely have a right to your opinion though.

I do think that too many people (not saying you're one of them) only think of the police in terms of that last ticket they got, that they're still pissed off about, even though they probably deserved it.  And they often fail to recognize what a difficult and important job the police have, and how much they contribute to society without being fully appreciated.

I've been on both sides of things.  I've been ticketed by the police, even in my own town, but this same police department arrested the people who tried to break into my house.  When I first spoke with the detective, he was very formal, calling me Mr. [D-Man], but after a couple of calls, we were talking like buddies and he was calling me Dave.  The point is, they're just human and have a job to do.  I still appreciate the job they did in locking up those subhuman scum, and I'll never take for granted the protection they provide, even if I've been on the receiving end of enforcement a few times.

Quote from: bing_oh on May 24, 2009, 05:26:59 PM
There are plenty of circumstances where responding to a higher priority call without lights and sirens is preferred. In some of these cases, responding hot could actually make things worse. There are circumstances where there's a tactical necessity to arrive blacked out...no lights (at all!), no sirens...so that the bad guy doesn't know LE is there. Those calls are frequently extremely urgent, however.

There are also lower priority calls that need a quick response but aren't classified as "emergencies." Those are calls where I would respond slightly over the speed limit, but still obey things like traffic lights and stop signs. Thses calls are actually quite frequent.

For low priority calls, I'm generally at the speed limit and following all traffic laws.

If you have doubts about this stuff, you can always go ride with a local PD. It's kinda tough to explain on the internet but pretty easy when you're experiencing it.

This sounds like a very good explanation to me. People freak out when they see lights and sirens and can do dumb things in a panic. If an officer can respond safely without lights and sirens, whether he is obeying the speed limit or not, I don't see why anyone should have a problem with that.

Quote from: bing_oh on May 24, 2009, 05:56:45 PM
Never. Though I doubt that you'll believe it, I have a very personal belief in individual responsibility. I'll accept any citation that I receive with a smile and a "thank you, officer." If I deserved the ticket, I'll pay it promptly and courteously.

Do you say, "Thank you sir, may I have another?"  :lol:

When did you last receive a citation?

Quote from: hounddog on May 24, 2009, 06:02:36 PM
Both Randy and I have said this several times before, only to be ridiculed and told we were lying or such nonsense. 

When was the last time either of your received a citation?

It's good to see this section of the forum springing back to life.  It's been pretty moribund lately.  I just hope this doesn't get out of hand.

Quote from: hounddog on May 24, 2009, 05:43:39 PM
That is horsehockey, wrapped up into a nice tight quasi-anti-police wrapping.

What is the difference between police putting a sticker on their vehicle displaying their profession vs. a fireman putting the maltese cross and other silly fireman related stickers on their cars?

Are you just as resentful of them? 
Because if you are not, then you, my friend, are not being fair.

Most police officers do not put things like that on their cars.  Those who do, do so because they are proud of their chosen profession not because it will help them "get out of jail free."  We have badges and identification cards, we do not NEED any type of stickers on our car to get out of speeding tickets in most cases.

As bingo_oh said, it's region specific. I have never known an officer in N.J. who did not display a courtesy badge on his car, as well as his wife/children's cars as well. It's strange if an officer DOESN'T do that around here. It's not "anti-police," per se, but it is a problem that many people have with the law enforcement community, in that literal "free passes" are displayed in windshields and put in wallets to get out of tickets. I don't hold resentment, I just don't think it's fair.

As for myself, I have a state Press ID placard in my car, but the difference is that it doesn't get me out of tickets (at least I don't think it does, I haven't been pulled over in years). My sticker, aside from some priority parking sometimes, is pretty much useless. The courtesy badges are not - and as I said, EVERYONE in the law enforcement community (and their families) display them here. I think it's probably just different where you live.

Well, I think the better question would be, "When was the last time you were pulled over?"

I got pulled over about two years ago by a douchebag MSP trooper just before my first stroke.  Treated me like crap, tried to make me hand him my firearm.

He did not give me a ticket, but he stopped me for only 65/55. 

No idea as to Randy.

Quote from: Psilos on May 24, 2009, 05:53:09 PM
Well, since we're naming names, and since I'm certain they feel the same about me, I have very little respect for hounddog and rohan (other than their taste in beer). Not only do we not agree on anything (except beer), but I have never got any sense that they respected anyone that doesn't agree with them, including and especially me. I find it difficult to respect someone who bullies and berates everyone, and makes almost no attempt to understand the opposing side of an argument.

I do respect the rest of the LEOs on the BB, because they do the opposite of the above. :lol: I respect the LEO profession, but it is sometimes difficult to respect individual LEOs and agency policies, etc.

Randy and Tony can sometimes be slightly more abrasive than me, but that doesn't mean that they don't respect other people's opinions. I have a slightly more cerebral demeanor, especially when I'm typing as opposed to talking (in person, I can be just as mean and nasty and any other cop, thanks :lol:). They also come from a rough city, where I've spent most of my career in smaller communities...a rough attitude is necessary much more often in places like Detroit. Different experiences make for a different outlook, though the vast majority of LEO's have very smiliar viewpoints and mindsets.

Quote from: dazzleman on May 24, 2009, 06:03:26 PM
I like hounddog and rohan.  They can be rough when people don't agree with them, but they're good guys IMO.  You surely have a right to your opinion though.

I do think that too many people (not saying you're one of them) only think of the police in terms of that last ticket they got, that they're still pissed off about, even though they probably deserved it.  And they often fail to recognize what a difficult and important job the police have, and how much they contribute to society without being fully appreciated.

I've been on both sides of things.  I've been ticketed by the police, even in my own town, but this same police department arrested the people who tried to break into my house.  When I first spoke with the detective, he was very formal, calling me Mr. [D-Man], but after a couple of calls, we were talking like buddies and he was calling me Dave.  The point is, they're just human and have a job to do.  I still appreciate the job they did in locking up those subhuman scum, and I'll never take for granted the protection they provide, even if I've been on the receiving end of enforcement a few times.

Well, since I don't get tickets from the real police (just BS parking tickets...  :rage:), I can't be one of them. :lol:

I think there is often a disconnect between the police and the rest of the society/culture/etc. People don't trust the police in a lot of places, often for good reason. If you put a cop on the corner, no one will talk to them unless they've been mugged.

Quote from: TurboDan on May 24, 2009, 06:03:42 PM
This sounds like a very good explanation to me. People freak out when they see lights and sirens and can do dumb things in a panic. If an officer can respond safely without lights and sirens, whether he is obeying the speed limit or not, I don't see why anyone should have a problem with that.

I agree.  Casual public observers don't always have all the facts to question the judgment of police officers in how they handle certain emergencies.

Yes, I've seen police totally flout the traffic laws for no good reason.  When I did a ride-along with my local police department, the officer I rode with drove that way.  He was pissed off because his car got stuck in the mud and had to be pulled out with a winch, so he FLEW on the way back to the police station.  It's an occupational hazard, I guess.  Still, he was a cool guy and a very good cop.  You have to look at the whole picture.  Things are not always so black and white as some people like to think.

Quote from: hounddog on May 24, 2009, 06:00:25 PM
I respond in kind to what is said to me.  Randy does the same.

The bigger problem is that you and others here do not listen to what is said, almost ever.  You ask questions, we give you the answers, and you tell us we are wrong or that we are just spouting institutional blah blah blah. 

It gets old very fast.  When I came here I tried very hard to be articulate and answer questions to the best of my ability.  But why should I do that when the above is the response. 

I just got very tired of it and no longer really try very hard. 

If you want me, and I suspect Randy as well, to treat you better you might wish to remember that road runs both ways.

And for the record, I hate NO ONE.  It is absolutely against my beliefs.

Uh-huh. So, I disagree, you berate, I berate. You pretty much just said that.

Quote from: TurboDan on May 24, 2009, 06:08:27 PM
As bingo_oh said, it's region specific. I have never known an officer in N.J. who did not display a courtesy badge on his car, as well as his wife/children's cars as well. It's strange if an officer DOESN'T do that around here. It's not "anti-police," per se, but it is a problem that many people have with the law enforcement community, in that literal "free passes" are displayed in windshields and put in wallets to get out of tickets. I don't hold resentment, I just don't think it's fair.

As for myself, I have a state Press ID placard in my car, but the difference is that it doesn't get me out of tickets (at least I don't think it does, I haven't been pulled over in years). My sticker, aside from some priority parking sometimes, is pretty much useless. The courtesy badges are not - and as I said, EVERYONE in the law enforcement community (and their families) display them here. I think it's probably just different where you live.

So, the firemen do not put stickers on their vehicles there? 

My wife goes to Morristown in a couple weeks, I will have her keep an eye out for those for me to see how prevelant they are.

Quote from: TurboDan on May 24, 2009, 06:08:27 PM
As bingo_oh said, it's region specific. I have never known an officer in N.J. who did not display a courtesy badge on his car, as well as his wife/children's cars as well. It's strange if an officer DOESN'T do that around here. It's not "anti-police," per se, but it is a problem that many people have with the law enforcement community, in that literal "free passes" are displayed in windshields and put in wallets to get out of tickets. I don't hold resentment, I just don't think it's fair.

As for myself, I have a state Press ID placard in my car, but the difference is that it doesn't get me out of tickets (at least I don't think it does, I haven't been pulled over in years). My sticker, aside from some priority parking sometimes, is pretty much useless. The courtesy badges are not - and as I said, EVERYONE in the law enforcement community (and their families) display them here. I think it's probably just different where you live.

A Press ID would probably ensure that you got a ticket if it were at all possible to give you one.  :lol:

Quote from: hounddog on May 24, 2009, 06:09:40 PM
Well, I think the better question would be, "When was the last time you were pulled over?"

I got pulled over about two years ago by a douchebag MSP trooper just before my first stroke.  Treated me like crap, tried to make me hand him my firearm.

He did not give me a ticket, but he stopped me for only 65/55. 

No idea as to Randy.

Well, I used my free pass just three days ago when I got pulled over. Even though I had an expired inspection sticker and had forgotten my wallet, I just winked at him and showed him my nipples. Got off with a verbal warning.

Quote from: dazzleman on May 24, 2009, 06:04:34 PM
Do you say, "Thank you sir, may I have another?"  :lol:

When did you last receive a citation?

Ony if the nice officer beats me first... :lol:

It's been a loooooooooong time. Now that I think about it, I havn't gotten a ticket since I've been a cop. I've been pulled over a few times, but always got warnings (and, no, I never badged my way into a warning). It's actually pretty rare that I get pulled over...one of the advantages of being a LEO is you know what thresholds to stay under if you want to break the law a little but not be a big enough fish to get stopped.  ;)

Quote from: bing_oh on May 24, 2009, 06:10:03 PM
Randy and Tony can sometimes be slightly more abrasive than me, but that doesn't mean that they don't respect other people's opinions. I have a slightly more cerebral demeanor, especially when I'm typing as opposed to talking (in person, I can be just as mean and nasty and any other cop, thanks :lol:). They also come from a rough city, where I've spent most of my career in smaller communities...a rough attitude is necessary much more often in places like Detroit. Different experiences make for a different outlook, though the vast majority of LEO's have very smiliar viewpoints and mindsets.

A dickhead's a dickhead...

I don't want to get too much more into this. It's going to get nasty.

Quote from: Psilos on May 24, 2009, 06:10:16 PM
I think there is often a disconnect between the police and the rest of the society/culture/etc. People don't trust the police in a lot of places, often for good reason.

For good reason?  Uhhg.  :rolleyes:

The first part is true, but the second part........:rolleyes:

QuoteIf you put a cop on the corner, no one will talk to them unless they've been mugged.

That is not true, I almost never tell people what I did for a living when at parties or other social events.  I usually make something up because otherwise, everybody and their brother want to talk to me.  It gets really old, sort of like for doctors as well.

Quote from: Psilos on May 24, 2009, 06:15:19 PM
A dickhead's a dickhead...

I don't want to get too much more into this. It's going to get nasty.

And you would certainly know.  :rolleyes:

And yet the point of his post goes unnoticed.  Typical.

And, so that this is absolutely clear;  I have no trouble communicating with anyone here on a civil level.  But, again, that road has to run both ways. 

Posts like this do nothing to tell me you are serious about civility.  How can someone with such good taste in beer be so naughty?

Quote from: Psilos on May 24, 2009, 06:10:16 PM
Well, since I don't get tickets from the real police (just BS parking tickets...  :rage:), I can't be one of them. :lol:

I think there is often a disconnect between the police and the rest of the society/culture/etc. People don't trust the police in a lot of places, often for good reason. If you put a cop on the corner, no one will talk to them unless they've been mugged.

Parking tickets totally piss me off.  Much more than speeding tickets.

I have a strong sense of justice, even when it applies to me.  So I find it very easy to accept a ticket that I know I deserved.  I also look at it a bit like a business transaction -- I got in the fun of going fast and breaking the law, and paying for it with a ticket is not so different to me than paying for a fun amusement park ride, or paying for a nice dinner.


With a parking ticket, I don't get either of those.  I don't violate parking rules deliberately for the most part, so the ticket comes from, at most, having made a mistake.  So there's no real concept of justice at work.  And since I derived no enjoyment from the accidental illegal parking (usually due to a meter running out), I don't have the 'benefit' of what I'm paying for either.

As to the disconnect between the police and the general public, you're right and I think it's unfortunate.  It's naturally a profession where sometimes they 'circle the wagons' and I can see why that happens.  It's not so much like that where I live, but it's a low crime, affluent, almost exclusively white town, so that makes a big difference.  The people here love the police and see them as their friends, generally, once they're past the age of about 20.   

LEOs have to be tougher than the average person to do their job, and sometimes that comes across in other aspects of their lives, including the way they interact with the public.

Quote from: Psilos on May 24, 2009, 06:15:19 PM
A dickhead's a dickhead...

I don't want to get too much more into this. It's going to get nasty.

You used to get pissed at me sometimes, and now we're friends.  CAN'T WE ALL GET ALONG?

Quote from: dazzleman on May 24, 2009, 06:21:03 PM
You used to get pissed at me sometimes, and now we're friends.  CAN'T WE ALL GET ALONG?

Shut up, hippie.

:lol:

Quote from: hounddog on May 24, 2009, 06:16:27 PM
And you would certainly know.  :rolleyes:

And yet the point of his post goes unnoticed.  Typical.

I got the point of his post. You guys come from Detriot, and he's a dickhead in person.

;)

Quote from: Psilos on May 24, 2009, 06:25:09 PM
Shut up, hippie.

:lol:

YOU are calling ME a hippie, man?  :lol:  I picture a haze of smoke from your reefer surrounding you right now.....

Whatever, I'm not the one getting all Jerry Garcia in here...

:lol:

Quote from: Psilos on May 24, 2009, 06:31:33 PM
Whatever, I'm not the one getting all Jerry Garcia in here...

:lol:

Hah, I was actually quoting Rodney King during the LA riots.

I am serious though about getting along.  I hate fighting.  Joking around and ball-busting is great, but I hate real hostility between people.

A while back, I thought you disliked me (never reciprocated), but we're friends now.

Quote from: Psilos on May 24, 2009, 06:25:59 PM
I got the point of his post. You guys come from Detriot, and he's a dickhead in person.

;)

Ahahah! :nono: CAN be a dickhead in person, thank you.

Quote from: bing_oh on May 24, 2009, 06:38:38 PM
Ahahah! :nono: CAN be a dickhead in person, thank you.

It's MR. Dickhead, if you want to show the proper respect.  Or maybe even Officer Dickhead.

Psilos -- You should get the 1980 movie "Hollywood Knights."  I think you'd appreciate the antics of the kids in the movie involving a police officer in the movie who has it out for them.  It's the sort of adolescent, juvenile, rebel-type movie that I still appreciate.  There's a lot of hilarious stuff in it.

Quote from: Psilos on May 24, 2009, 06:25:59 PM
I got the point of his post. You guys come from Detriot, and he's a dickhead in person.

;)

Hey, go back and read what I had added to that post. 

Quote from: dazzleman on May 24, 2009, 06:45:39 PM
It's MR. Dickhead, if you want to show the proper respect.  Or maybe even Officer Dickhead.

Ha! That reminds me of dealing with a little skater punk awhile back. He insited on calling me "dawg." I corrected him...it's OFFICER Dawg!

Quote from: bing_oh on May 24, 2009, 06:50:24 PM
Ha! That reminds me of dealing with a little skater punk awhile back. He insited on calling me "dawg." I corrected him...it's OFFICER Dawg!

Damn right.  He needs to show respect.  He sounds like a funny kid, actually.  I love wiseasses.  They always keep things interesting.

I always hated it when someone decided it was perfectly ok to start calling me by my first name while I was on duty.

"It is only considered polite to address someone by their first name when you are friends.  I am not your friend, I am not your little buddy, I am not your drinking buddy.  You may refer to me as Sgt., Sgt. White, Sir, Officer or any combination containing those words."

I stopped saying that when someone called me "White officer."

Quote from: hounddog on May 24, 2009, 06:55:18 PM
I always hated it when someone decided it was perfectly ok to start calling me by my first name while I was on duty.

"It is only considered polite to address someone by their first name when you are friends.  I am not your friend, I am not your little buddy, I am not your drinking buddy.  You may refer to me as Sgt., Sgt. White, Sir, Officer or any combination containing those words."

I stopped saying that when someone called me "White officer."

:lol:
White officer....that's hilarious.

I got to be friendly with some of the officers in my town when I took the Citizen's Police Academy.  I've seen a couple of them on duty, and addressed them by their first names.  We're not friends, but we're friendly.  Do you think that's rude of me?  I also addressed the detective I dealt with regarding the attempted burglary at my house by his first name, after we'd established some friendly banter.  Is that rude?

No that is not, I am talking about scumbags we deal with, not the good guys.  The good guys were always welcome to call me almost anything they wanted.

I had a little old lady that used to call me Harry.  Never figured out why.  :huh:

Quote from: dazzleman on May 24, 2009, 06:35:34 PM
Hah, I was actually quoting Rodney King during the LA riots.

I am serious though about getting along.  I hate fighting.  Joking around and ball-busting is great, but I hate real hostility between people.

A while back, I thought you disliked me (never reciprocated), but we're friends now.

There's real hostility, and there's internet hostility. I figure that angry emotions are amplified a few times on the internet. I don't like real hostility, but internet hostility, while often misplaced, etc., is just sort of an LOL thing, ya know?

I didn't like you for a while, years ago, and I think it was mostly politics (which I still think are misguided, but that's another thread or fifty).  :partyon:

Quote from: bing_oh on May 24, 2009, 06:38:38 PM
Ahahah! :nono: CAN be a dickhead in person, thank you.

Is, can, what's the difference? And you're welcome. 0_o

:lol:

Quote from: hounddog on May 24, 2009, 06:55:18 PM
I always hated it when someone decided it was perfectly ok to start calling me by my first name while I was on duty.

"It is only considered polite to address someone by their first name when you are friends.  I am not your friend, I am not your little buddy, I am not your drinking buddy.  You may refer to me as Sgt., Sgt. White, Sir, Officer or any combination containing those words."

I stopped saying that when someone called me "White officer."

Sgt. Officer Sir?

A friend got pulled over in his extended cab Ranger with me, him, and, like, four other people smashed in there (and a couple of illicit things) for pulling an (unbeknownst to him and us) illegal U-turn. He just got a warning (I think the LEO just wanted to see what was up). One of my dumbass friends thanked the "Officer sir," which was only hilarious in retrospect.

If you didn't like me then on the basis of my politics, why do like me now?  My politics haven't really changed much.

BTW, your politics are misguided IMO...:lol:

Quote from: hounddog on May 24, 2009, 06:16:27 PM
And you would certainly know.  :rolleyes:

And yet the point of his post goes unnoticed.  Typical.

And, so that this is absolutely clear;  I have no trouble communicating with anyone here on a civil level.  But, again, that road has to run both ways. 

Posts like this do nothing to tell me you are serious about civility.  How can someone with such good taste in beer be so naughty?

I'm not serious about civility because, apparently, neither are you. ;)

Also, naughty? You want to stick with that word?

(http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/IMPO/ET3036~Naughty-Boy-Posters.jpg)

^ Except with houndog.  :wtf:

People will always disagree on politics, but in the end the majority of the BS we disagree with, as far as political things go, are meaningless and have little impact on our daily lives. Now, I am talking about abortion/no abortion, not war/peace.  The old saying, Ye must agree to disagree to commence henceforthwithshalt! :cheers:

Quote from: dazzleman on May 24, 2009, 08:47:06 PM
If you didn't like me then on the basis of my politics, why do like me now?  My politics haven't really changed much.

BTW, your politics are misguided IMO...:lol:

Dude, your politics are so misguided, they're like a Sidewinder missile that turns around and blows up the plane that shot it! :lol:

I think your politics have become less prominent on the BB. Also, I typically don't reply to your political posts, because I know it will go nowhere fast (meaning, we'll never agree). And, for a while, there was this old New England conservative guy circle jerk thing that really pissed me off. You, Ron, and Catman... Man, that was annoying. :lol:

Quote from: Minpin on May 24, 2009, 08:50:01 PM
People will always disagree on politics, but in the end the majority of the BS we disagree with, as far as political things go, are meaningless and have little impact on our daily lives. Now, I am talking about abortion/no abortion, not war/peace.  The old saying, Ye must agree to disagree to commence henceforthwithshalt! :cheers:

Psilos used to get really steamed up over my criticisms of certain aspects of feminism, for whatever reason.

Quote from: dazzleman on May 24, 2009, 08:55:51 PM
Psilos used to get really steamed up over my criticisms of certain aspects of feminism, for whatever reason.

What that women deserve to be in the kitchen and they can't handle real life outside of their domain?  :lol: (seriously)  :pullover:

Quote from: Psilos on May 24, 2009, 08:55:20 PM
Dude, your politics are so misguided, they're like a Sidewinder missile that turns around and blows up the plane that shot it! :lol:

I think your politics have become less prominent on the BB. Also, I typically don't reply to your political posts, because I know it will go nowhere fast (meaning, we'll never agree). And, for a while, there was this old New England conservative guy circle jerk thing that really pissed me off. You, Ron, and Catman... Man, that was annoying. :lol:

I still post a decent amount about politics, but it's mostly on economic/financial issues at this point in time.  We've been through a long period where we simply label people, and once they're labeled a certain way, we don't bother to actually listen to what they have to say.  I think there are valid viewpoints on all ends of the political spectrum, though I continue to favor the conservative side.  Still, you may not have recognized the subtlety of some of what I've said, and where I deviate from doctrinaire conservatism.  It seems that once a person gets the 'conservative' (or liberal) label, that's it in the minds of some people, and there's no further consideration of any of their views.  I think we have to get away from this type of thinking if we are to regain a functioning political system.

I think you like me now simply because you finally realized what a badass I truly am, and you just can't help but deeply admire it..... :devil:

Quote from: dazzleman on May 24, 2009, 08:55:51 PM
Psilos used to get really steamed up over my criticisms of certain aspects of feminism, for whatever reason.

And other stuff. I still do, whenever you post about it. But I stay quiet because we've had that discussion many times already. It's like dealing with my grandparents. Just don't say anything political or religious, and you're good to go. :lol:

Oh god, religion is such a hot topic nowadays. I feel like I have to hide my religion for fear of being cast as the outsider. They are always like "?Really? Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh........

Quote from: Psilos on May 24, 2009, 09:04:42 PM
And other stuff. I still do, whenever you post about it. But I stay quiet because we've had that discussion many times already. It's like dealing with my grandparents. Just don't say anything political or religious, and you're good to go. :lol:

But I guess the question still remains.  If you didn't like me because of my views earlier, and they haven't changed, why do you seem to get along with me now?

Quote from: dazzleman on May 24, 2009, 09:05:57 PM
But I guess the question still remains.  If you didn't like me because of my views earlier, and they haven't changed, why do you seem to get along with me now?

He has to respect his elders, and namely his Carspin Dad. Right, Psilos.  ;) :winkguy:

Quote from: dazzleman on May 24, 2009, 09:01:42 PM
I still post a decent amount about politics, but it's mostly on economic/financial issues at this point in time.  We've been through a long period where we simply label people, and once they're labeled a certain way, we don't bother to actually listen to what they have to say.  I think there are valid viewpoints on all ends of the political spectrum, though I continue to favor the conservative side.  Still, you may not have recognized the subtlety of some of what I've said, and where I deviate from doctrinaire conservatism.  It seems that once a person gets the 'conservative' (or liberal) label, that's it in the minds of some people, and there's no further consideration of any of their views.  I think we have to get away from this type of thinking if we are to regain a functioning political system.

I think you like me now simply because you finally realized what a badass I truly am, and you just can't help but deeply admire it..... :devil:

I try to pay attention to the actual point and logic, but sometimes, and with a lot of people, that is so well disguised behind the usual talking points and partisan BS, that it's hard to pull out. And then, when I do get it, I still disagree with it, and etc.

Yes, daz, I like you deeply. Deeply. I want your Bimmer, if you know what I mean. :winkguy:

That's about as creepy as Wimmer, now, eh?  :praise: :lol:

Quote from: Minpin on May 24, 2009, 09:05:55 PM
Oh god, religion is such a hot topic nowadays. I feel like I have to hide my religion for fear of being cast as the outsider. They are always like "?Really? Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh........

What religion are you?

Quote from: Psilos on May 24, 2009, 09:09:38 PM
I try to pay attention to the actual point and logic, but sometimes, and with a lot of people, that is so well disguised behind the usual talking points and partisan BS, that it's hard to pull out. And then, when I do get it, I still disagree with it, and etc.

Yes, daz, I like you deeply. Deeply. I want your Bimmer, if you know what I mean. :winkguy:

That's about as creepy as Wimmer, now, eh?  :praise: :lol:

:lol:
You're sick, man.... :praise:

Quote from: Minpin on May 24, 2009, 09:06:58 PM
He has to respect his elders, and namely his Carspin Dad. Right, Psilos.  ;) :winkguy:

0_o

I think it's obvious that I don't respect people because of their age, isn't it? :lol:

Quote from: Psilos on May 24, 2009, 09:10:18 PM
What religion are you?

I lack a religion. Atheist, and my parents don't even accept it. They make me go to church when I am home.  :facepalm:

Quote from: Psilos on May 24, 2009, 09:11:36 PM
0_o

I think it's obvious that I don't respect people because of their age, isn't it? :lol:

I was trying to move this thing along.  :heated:

Quote from: dazzleman on May 24, 2009, 09:05:57 PM
But I guess the question still remains.  If you didn't like me because of my views earlier, and they haven't changed, why do you seem to get along with me now?

It wasn't just your views. It was the utter persistence. You managed to insert your views into every thread, and then Ron and Catman would show up and you all would pat each other on the back...

Anyway, I am better at ignoring parts of otherwise good people that I don't like now.

Quote from: Minpin on May 24, 2009, 09:13:07 PM
I lack a religion. Atheist, and my parents don't even accept it. They make me go to church when I am home.  :facepalm:

I was trying to move this thing along.  :heated:

Ah, smart man. :lol:

Quote from: Psilos on May 24, 2009, 09:14:09 PM
Ah, smart man. :lol:

About what?  :lol: I tend to believe in evolution, and that contradicts with everything the bible says, so....

Quote from: Minpin on May 24, 2009, 09:15:01 PM
About what?  :lol: I tend to believe in evolution, and that contradicts with everything the bible says, so....

You act as though Christianity is the only religion.  And one need not take every word in the Bible literally to still believe in Christianity or otherwise practice the religion.

Aye. Look, I don't feel like discussing this now. You have your beliefs, and trust me when I say this, I have no problem with that. I respect your opinion, I go to school in the bible belt, man. I just have my own opinion, and I keep it to myself, unless I am specifically asked what my religion is. I don't like Atheists who go and harass christians, and other religions, and likewise the other way round. It's just the way things are, people have different beliefs and such, I just want people to form their own opinions and not go with the whole 'mob mentality' throughout life.  :huh:

Quote from: Minpin on May 24, 2009, 09:15:01 PM
About what?  :lol: I tend to believe in evolution, and that contradicts with everything the bible says, so....

Both things in that post.

But evolution doesn't necessarily negate a Judei-Christian god, just the entire bible. :lol:

Quote from: Psilos on May 24, 2009, 08:35:37 PM
Is, can, what's the difference? And you're welcome. 0_o

:lol:

Oh, huge difference. If I am an asshole, it's pretty much a lifestyle thing. I'm always an asshole, world without end, amen. If I can be an asshole, it's pretty much a game. Bascially, I can bullshit people into believing I'm an asshole, and I laugh about it as I drive away because you actually fell for it.

Most LEO's fall into the second catagory. The true assholes are a rare commodity.

Quote from: Psilos on May 24, 2009, 09:13:47 PM
It wasn't just your views. It was the utter persistence. You managed to insert your views into every thread, and then Ron and Catman would show up and you all would pat each other on the back...

Anyway, I am better at ignoring parts of otherwise good people that I don't like now.

:lol:
That's hilarious.  I never really saw it that way.  This is a pretty conservative forum.  To me, that's just normal I guess.  Most of my friends and relatives are relatively conservative, though most people I know aren't really hard core.  I can see how it might get on the nerves of a more liberal person.

Still, Ron, Greg and I have disagreements on some issues, though we play them down.  Ron is quite a bit more doctrinaire conservative than Greg is or I am.  Greg simply leans conservative, as do I in most cases.

Quote from: Minpin on May 24, 2009, 09:21:22 PM
Aye. Look, I don't feel like discussing this now. You have your beliefs, and trust me when I say this, I have no problem with that. I respect your opinion, I go to school in the bible belt, man. I just have my own opinion, and I keep it to myself, unless I am specifically asked what my religion is. I don't like Atheists who go and harass christians, and other religions, and likewise the other way round. It's just the way things are, people have different beliefs and such, I just want people to form their own opinions and not go with the whole 'mob mentality' throughout life.  :huh:

Religion's not really my thing either.  Just pointing out that there's more out there than Christianity, although if you live in the Bible Belt it might not seem that way.

Quote from: Psilos on May 24, 2009, 08:41:32 PM
Sgt. Officer Sir?

A friend got pulled over in his extended cab Ranger with me, him, and, like, four other people smashed in there (and a couple of illicit things) for pulling an (unbeknownst to him and us) illegal U-turn. He just got a warning (I think the LEO just wanted to see what was up). One of my dumbass friends thanked the "Officer sir," which was only hilarious in retrospect.

Nice.  Yeah, I think "Officer sir" might be cause for a second look.  :lol:

Quote from: Psilos on May 24, 2009, 08:47:16 PM
I'm not serious about civility because, apparently, neither are you. ;)

Also, naughty? You want to stick with that word?

I am completely serious about it, I would like nothing more than to have a serious discussion without several of you guys not resorting to the tactics that you often do.  In the interest of civility, I am not going to point out the specific behaviors as I believe I have made them well known in other posts. 

I am, however, open to all of us getting along better.  But that is going to take more than just me. ;)

And for the "naughty" statement; I was just trying to infuse a little humor into the topic.  Nothing more. 

Sicko.  :nono: :lol:

Quote from: hounddog on May 24, 2009, 09:32:51 PM
Nice.  Yeah, I think "Officer sir" might be cause for a second look.  :lol:
I am completely serious about it, I would like nothing more than to have a serious discussion without several of you guys not resorting to the tactics that you often do.  In the interest of civility, I am not going to point out the specific behaviors as I believe I have made them well known in other posts. 

I am, however, open to all of us getting along better.  But that is going to take more than just me. ;)

And for the "naughty" statement; I was just trying to infuse a little humor into the topic.  Nothing more. 

Sicko.  :nono: :lol:

I think you two guys need to settle this the old fashioned manly way -- with fisticuffs.  After you beat the crap out of each other, you go get a drink together and become lifelong buddies.  Psilos might even be able to get you to toke on his joint...How 'bout it guys? :ohyeah:

Quote from: bing_oh on May 24, 2009, 09:27:55 PM
Oh, huge difference. If I am an asshole, it's pretty much a lifestyle thing. I'm always an asshole, world without end, amen. If I can be an asshole, it's pretty much a game. Bascially, I can bullshit people into believing I'm an asshole, and I laugh about it as I drive away because you actually fell for it.

Most LEO's fall into the second catagory. The true assholes are a rare commodity.

I was kidding... :lol:

Anyway, if you can be an asshole, and you bullshit someone into believing you are an asshole, then guess what?-- you're an asshole. ;)

I would know. I don't think of myself as an asshole, but I have been an asshole in certain more appropriate situations. People who have been there for more than one of those tend to think that I am always an asshole (which is generally the way I want it with them). Assholishness isn't in the intent of your actions or life in general; it's in the specific actions as they are acted out. If you act like an asshole toward some idiot that you've got on the side of the road, then that series of actions makes you an asshole, even if just for that time.

Which is not to say that I don't understand the necessity to be an asshole in certain situations, though certain people take it too far.

Quote from: dazzleman on May 24, 2009, 09:29:26 PM
:lol:
That's hilarious.  I never really saw it that way.  This is a pretty conservative forum.  To me, that's just normal I guess.  Most of my friends and relatives are relatively conservative, though most people I know aren't really hard core.  I can see how it might get on the nerves of a more liberal person.

Still, Ron, Greg and I have disagreements on some issues, though we play them down.  Ron is quite a bit more doctrinaire conservative than Greg is or I am.  Greg simply leans conservative, as do I in most cases.

Indeed. It gets awfully hard to make or defend a point when there are three guys on the opposite side with enough wits to make a decent argument that each respond to every post I make, and then respond to each others posts complimenting each other on their view, etc. (and then respond to those, thanking each other). 0_0

I used to see any one of your misguided posts and feel that I should respond to it, even if just to provide the alternative view in a thread, and then get bombarded by the conservative trio. Now, I let it go.

:lol:

Quote from: dazzleman on May 24, 2009, 09:44:52 PM
I think you two guys need to settle this the old fashioned manly way -- with fisticuffs.  After you beat the crap out of each other, you go get a drink together and become lifelong buddies.  Psilos might even be able to get you to toke on his joint...How 'bout it guys? :ohyeah:

Holy shit, no! Have you seen the size of that guy? Fuck, he'd kill me.

We can race on a gravel road. That's a more equitable way to settle things.  :ohyeah:

Quote from: hounddog on May 24, 2009, 09:32:51 PM
Nice.  Yeah, I think "Officer sir" might be cause for a second look.  :lol:
I am completely serious about it, I would like nothing more than to have a serious discussion without several of you guys not resorting to the tactics that you often do.  In the interest of civility, I am not going to point out the specific behaviors as I believe I have made them well known in other posts. 

I am, however, open to all of us getting along better.  But that is going to take more than just me. ;)

And for the "naughty" statement; I was just trying to infuse a little humor into the topic.  Nothing more. 

Sicko.  :nono: :lol:

houndog, I think you should take a more critical eye to the attitude of many of your posts, especially early in our opponentry. I won't say that you have always been the instigator, and I won't claim complete innocence, but you certainly elevate things quickly. I think it's easy to see why "we" don't give you much room for dickhead comments.

Also, "we" pretty much know that there is just about no way in hell that you are ever going to change your mind, no matter how much respect and civility we give you.

Quote from: Psilos on May 25, 2009, 12:25:30 AM
Indeed. It gets awfully hard to make or defend a point when there are three guys on the opposite side with enough wits to make a decent argument that each respond to every post I make, and then respond to each others posts complimenting each other on their view, etc. (and then respond to those, thanking each other). 0_0

I used to see any one of your misguided posts and feel that I should respond to it, even if just to provide the alternative view in a thread, and then get bombarded by the conservative trio. Now, I let it go.

:lol:

So you now agree that we're right, and were all along?  :lol:

Seriously though, I can see where that would be pretty annoying, no matter how misguided the point you were trying to make was... ;)  We'll have to agree to disagree on whose politics is misguided.

All that aside, I have to say that your good-natured skewering of my lame, pseudo-badass persona was hilarious, and perfectly on the mark.  If you can bust my balls and get me to think it's hilarious, then we have to be buddies... :rockon:

I'd also say I pegged you pretty well too.  I picture you out behind the gym in high school when you're supposed to be in class, smoking weed with your stoner buddies, and bitching about the 'fascist' school administrators who have actually been very easy on you and let you get away with a lot. :devil:

Quote from: Psilos on May 25, 2009, 12:20:17 AM
I was kidding... :lol:

Anyway, if you can be an asshole, and you bullshit someone into believing you are an asshole, then guess what?-- you're an asshole. ;)

I would know. I don't think of myself as an asshole, but I have been an asshole in certain more appropriate situations. People who have been there for more than one of those tend to think that I am always an asshole (which is generally the way I want it with them). Assholishness isn't in the intent of your actions or life in general; it's in the specific actions as they are acted out. If you act like an asshole toward some idiot that you've got on the side of the road, then that series of actions makes you an asshole, even if just for that time.

Which is not to say that I don't understand the necessity to be an asshole in certain situations, though certain people take it too far.

I was thinking I'm more a pseudo-asshole or temporary asshole.

Quote from: MX793 on May 24, 2009, 04:08:33 PM
Officers are supposed to obey the same traffic laws as everybody else.  Off-duty officers especially, but even on-duty officers are not supposed to be breaking traffic laws unless they need to do so in order to perform their duties (e.g. running a redlight to respond to an emergency more quickly, speeding to catch a speeder, etc) and when doing so, their lights and siren are supposed to be on barring special circumstances.

The disregard for traffic laws that I see by police on a regular basis simply because, by virtue of "professional courtesy", nobody will write them a ticket is a pet peeve of mine.  IMO, it's time somebody started to watch the watchmen.  And their families certainly should not be getting a free pass.

:ohyeah: :hesaid:

Well, looks like I'm late to the party.  Who knew a thread about license plates could get this intense?

Quote from: Raza  link=topic=18738.msg1067289#msg1067289 date=1243256481
Well, looks like I'm late to the party.  Who knew a thread about license plates could get this intense?

You know how things go on the 'spin.  One of the great things about this site.

Quote from: dazzleman on May 24, 2009, 05:28:29 PM
I agree with you.  If an LEO is breaking traffic laws flagrantly and not using sirens and lights, that can be dangerous, and it probably means that he's not going to a real emergency in a lot of cases.  I think LEOs have to be allowed more leeway, but too much undermines respect for the law.

There's this one spot near me where a PD is connected to a shopping center, and both the PD and the shopping center have main exits at lights, but the shopping center has a right turn only exit at a stop sign off to the side (which is the exit that I usually use, as my house is in that direction).  So many times, I'd see officers drive from the PD, into the shopping center, and into the RTO exit, just to turn left and sit in traffic.  No lights, no emergency, just a blatant disregard for the law because they didn't want to wait at the light.  Over and over I'd see it, at a rate of once or twice a week.  And I don't live that close to the area where I have it under constant surveillance.  And it's not like it's an idiotic RTO, either.  The lane is curved towards the right, so to turn left, you have to basically make a u-turn. 

Of course, if I did it in front of a copper, I'd get a ticket.  That's just one of the things that really pisses me off about cops in this area.

Quote from: Raza  link=topic=18738.msg1067291#msg1067291 date=1243256855
There's this one spot near me where a PD is connected to a shopping center, and both the PD and the shopping center have main exits at lights, but the shopping center has a right turn only exit at a stop sign off to the side (which is the exit that I usually use, as my house is in that direction).  So many times, I'd see officers drive from the PD, into the shopping center, and into the RTO exit, just to turn left and sit in traffic.  No lights, no emergency, just a blatant disregard for the law because they didn't want to wait at the light.  Over and over I'd see it, at a rate of once or twice a week.  And I don't live that close to the area where I have it under constant surveillance.  And it's not like it's an idiotic RTO, either.  The lane is curved towards the right, so to turn left, you have to basically make a u-turn. 

Of course, if I did it in front of a copper, I'd get a ticket.  That's just one of the things that really pisses me off about cops in this area.

Definitely not right, but I think you have to keep that sort of thing in perspective.  If that's the biggest injustice you face in this life, you'll have been pretty fortunate.

One thing that keeps me from getting annoyed at little stuff like that is the knowledge of how much I've gotten away with, and how much less of a punishment I've gotten than I deserved the times I was caught.

Quote from: dazzleman on May 24, 2009, 06:19:20 PM
I have a strong sense of justice, even when it applies to me.  So I find it very easy to accept a ticket that I know I deserved. 

This is where I have a problem.  You seem to accept that just because a law is on the books it is just, and therefore should be obeyed.  We've had unjust laws in this country before, and while this is nowhere near the level of severity of unjust laws like slavery, segregation, that TARP bonus tax, and other laws, it still shouldn't be accepted just because it exists. 

Speed limits are arbitrary restraints and a restriction on our personal freedom (I will not address the revenue issue, though, at this time.  For now, let's leave that out of it).  While I agree that driver training should be better in this country, I think that the fact that many people tend to drive 15-20mph over the limit safely everyday should lead you to the conclusion that speed limits are artificially low.  I'm not completely opposed to speed limits; I'd just want logical ones based on empirical data and not political appeasement.

Quote from: dazzleman on May 25, 2009, 07:11:33 AM
Definitely not right, but I think you have to keep that sort of thing in perspective.  If that's the biggest injustice you face in this life, you'll have been pretty fortunate.

One thing that keeps me from getting annoyed at little stuff like that is the knowledge of how much I've gotten away with, and how much less of a punishment I've gotten than I deserved the times I was caught.

Oh, it's not the biggest, it just pisses me off.  Why should they be able to get away with it every time because of their job?  Why should I respect someone who is charged with upholding the law, but can't adhere to it himself?

Quote from: Raza  link=topic=18738.msg1067296#msg1067296 date=1243257243
This is where I have a problem.  You seem to accept that just because a law is on the books it is just, and therefore should be obeyed.  We've had unjust laws in this country before, and while this is nowhere near the level of severity of unjust laws like slavery, segregation, that TARP bonus tax, and other laws, it still shouldn't be accepted just because it exists. 

Speed limits are arbitrary restraints and a restriction on our personal freedom (I will not address the revenue issue, though, at this time.  For now, let's leave that out of it).  While I agree that driver training should be better in this country, I think that the fact that many people tend to drive 15-20mph over the limit safely everyday should lead you to the conclusion that speed limits are artificially low.  I'm not completely opposed to speed limits; I'd just want logical ones based on empirical data and not political appeasement.

I don't disagree with you, though you could say that the real speed limit is at least 10-15 mph higher than what the signs state, since not that many people get tickets for going less than that over the limit.

I completely agree that a law shouldn't be accepted simply because it exists.  We have had, and continue to have, laws that are wrong.  But it's hard for me to argue with a straight face that a speed limit that should be 15 mph higher is in a similar category to slavery.  I know that's not what you're really suggesting, but there is a difference between something that is a flat-out moral abomination, and a law that is imperfect and poorly administered, but not really wrong in ultimate intent.

I guess the issue for me is porportionality and practicality.  If getting a ticket is that big a deal to me, I can choose to obey a speed limit that is artificially low.  Slaves, by contrast, didn't have the option of becoming white so as to avoid that awful condition.  I personally am not bothered by the prospect of getting a ticket, so I drive the speed I want, and if I get busted, I'll just take the penalty and continue to do what I want.  That's pretty much what I've always done.

Quote from: dazzleman on May 25, 2009, 07:20:21 AM
I don't disagree with you, though you could say that the real speed limit is at least 10-15 mph higher than what the signs state, since not that many people get tickets for going less than that over the limit.

I completely agree that a law shouldn't be accepted simply because it exists.  We have had, and continue to have, laws that are wrong.  But it's hard for me to argue with a straight face that a speed limit that should be 15 mph higher is in a similar category to slavery.  I know that's not what you're really suggesting, but there is a difference between something that is a flat-out moral abomination, and a law that is imperfect and poorly administered, but not really wrong in ultimate intent.

I guess the issue for me is porportionality and practicality.  If getting a ticket is that big a deal to me, I can choose to obey a speed limit that is artificially low.  Slaves, by contrast, didn't have the option of becoming white so as to avoid that awful condition.  I personally am not bothered by the prospect of getting a ticket, so I drive the speed I want, and if I get busted, I'll just take the penalty and continue to do what I want.  That's pretty much what I've always done.

Oh, I agree that they're not even close to being comparable on a moral level, just mentioning it as hyperbole. 

I see what you're saying.  But shelling out $200 or so for enjoying myself safely really gets under my skin.

Quote from: Raza  link=topic=18738.msg1067298#msg1067298 date=1243257371
Oh, it's not the biggest, it just pisses me off.  Why should they be able to get away with it every time because of their job?  Why should I respect someone who is charged with upholding the law, but can't adhere to it himself?

The law is less than perfect, and always will be, because it's administered by humans.  I can think of so much worse flagrant injustice that comes out of the legal system that I find it hard to get worked up over an officer making an illegal turn.

On the flip side, police work can be hard and stressful, risky, and is not particularly well paid.  I've also had enough positive experience with the police to balance out the stuff you're talking about.  I'm inclined to let them have their perks without much complaint, as long as it doesn't directly affect me, which it won't as long as I don't make that illegal left turn.  Even if I did and got busted, the penalty wouldn't be enough for me to really give a crap about the fact that police can do it with impunity.

Quote from: Raza  link=topic=18738.msg1067302#msg1067302 date=1243257742
Oh, I agree that they're not even close to being comparable on a moral level, just mentioning it as hyperbole. 

I see what you're saying.  But shelling out $200 or so for enjoying myself safely really gets under my skin.

But how often do you have to shell out that $200?  If you think about it, illegal speeding is one of the best bargains out there.  Think about how many times you have to do it before you get caught.  With any other legal means of enjoyment, like say bungee jumping, parasailing, track racing, rollercoasters, you name it, you have to pay every time you do it, and if you do that sort of stuff even a couple of times a year, it adds up to a lot more money than you'll ever spend on the speeding you do on a daily basis.

Quote from: dazzleman on May 25, 2009, 07:26:48 AM
But how often do you have to shell out that $200?  If you think about it, illegal speeding is one of the best bargains out there.  Think about how many times you have to do it before you get caught.  With any other legal means of enjoyment, like say bungee jumping, parasailing, track racing, rollercoasters, you name it, you have to pay every time you do it, and if you do that sort of stuff even a couple of times a year, it adds up to a lot more money than you'll ever spend on the speeding you do on a daily basis.

I must say, as a pragmatic argument, that's pretty good.  I'm a sucker for cost/benefit analysis.

But you knew that already.   :lol:

Quote from: dazzleman on May 25, 2009, 07:23:55 AM
The law is less than perfect, and always will be, because it's administered by humans.  I can think of so much worse flagrant injustice that comes out of the legal system that I find it hard to get worked up over an officer making an illegal turn.

On the flip side, police work can be hard and stressful, risky, and is not particularly well paid.  I've also had enough positive experience with the police to balance out the stuff you're talking about.  I'm inclined to let them have their perks without much complaint, as long as it doesn't directly affect me, which it won't as long as I don't make that illegal left turn.  Even if I did and got busted, the penalty wouldn't be enough for me to really give a crap about the fact that police can do it with impunity.

Well, there are many places where LEO duty is just downright dangerous.  Where I live isn't really one of those places. 

I haven't seen them do it much recently.  Someone with more juice than a young without family man from a neighboring town must have complained about it. 

On a moral level (and I do have morals, as much as it may surprise you) it irks me.

Quote from: dazzleman on May 25, 2009, 07:26:48 AM
But how often do you have to shell out that $200?  If you think about it, illegal speeding is one of the best bargains out there.  Think about how many times you have to do it before you get caught.  With any other legal means of enjoyment, like say bungee jumping, parasailing, track racing, rollercoasters, you name it, you have to pay every time you do it, and if you do that sort of stuff even a couple of times a year, it adds up to a lot more money than you'll ever spend on the speeding you do on a daily basis.

There usually is little joy to be found going < 20 mph over the limit on most roads. If I ever got caught speeding while enjoying it, I would get arrested. That is no bargain.

Quote from: NACar on May 25, 2009, 07:32:16 AM
There usually is little joy to be found going < 20 mph over the limit on most roads. If I ever got caught speeding while enjoying it, I would get arrested. That is no bargain.

Come on Nick, getting arrested would be a blast.... :evildude:

Quote from: Raza  link=topic=18738.msg1067307#msg1067307 date=1243258148
I must say, as a pragmatic argument, that's pretty good.  I'm a sucker for cost/benefit analysis.

But you knew that already.   :lol:

I think that's the first time I've made an argument that has gotten through to you.... :devil:

Quote from: Raza  link=topic=18738.msg1067308#msg1067308 date=1243258336
Well, there are many places where LEO duty is just downright dangerous.  Where I live isn't really one of those places. 

I haven't seen them do it much recently.  Someone with more juice than a young without family man from a neighboring town must have complained about it. 

On a moral level (and I do have morals, as much as it may surprise you) it irks me.

I don't disagree that it's wrong, and also counterproductive to police-community relations.  I just know that if you get worked up over every little injustice you see, your life will be miserable.  Sometimes you have to pick your battles, and let stuff like this go for your own good.

Quote from: dazzleman on May 25, 2009, 07:35:35 AM
Come on Nick, getting arrested would be a blast.... :evildude:

So getting throw in jail for a day wouldn't be the end of the word, but losing my license and having a felony on my record would.

Quote from: NACar on May 25, 2009, 07:38:52 AM
So getting throw in jail for a day wouldn't be the end of the word, but losing my license and having a felony on my record would.

I doubt that would happen for going 25 mph or so over the speed limit.

Speaking of that, I hit 95 mph yesterday.  It was pretty cool.  Later on, there was a cop, and when I saw him, I was going between 85 and 90.  So were all the cars around me.  There was no way to really slow down in time, so I just took it down to about 70, but I imagine he had clocked me all ready.  He was sitting there pointing his gun at all the cars, but he never came out and pulled anybody over, and we were all going pretty fast.  It was pretty strange.  Since CT often has a tag team approach, I thought there might be another cop slightly down the road who would flag me over, but there was no other cop, and I was back up to about 80 mph within a mile or so.

Quote from: dazzleman on May 25, 2009, 07:41:34 AM
I doubt that would happen for going 25 mph or so over the speed limit.

Speaking of that, I hit 95 mph yesterday.  It was pretty cool.  Later on, there was a cop, and when I saw him, I was going between 85 and 90.  So were all the cars around me.  There was no way to really slow down in time, so I just took it down to about 70, but I imagine he had clocked me all ready.  He was sitting there pointing his gun at all the cars, but he never came out and pulled anybody over, and we were all going pretty fast.  It was pretty strange.  Since CT often has a tag team approach, I thought there might be another cop slightly down the road who would flag me over, but there was no other cop, and I was back up to about 80 mph within a mile or so.

:pullover:

Quote from: NACar on May 25, 2009, 07:38:52 AM
So getting throw in jail for a day wouldn't be the end of the word, but losing my license and having a felony on my record would.

I honestly don't know of anyplace that speeding more than 25 miles per hour is a felony- could be but I've never heard of it.  At worst it's gonna be a reckless driving which is a misdemeanor.   Here the worst it would be is a 25 over speeding ticket- maybe if you were doing something else like passing cars illegally it would be careless driving.  I stopped a car just before getting promoted on a state road we call "M" roads here for doing 110 in a 55 - I wrote him the 110/55.  All he got was 4 points for that and about $300 fine.  OH and the dumbass actually fought it in court.  :rolleyes:  The magistrate just looked at him like he was out of his mind because he said "I know I wasn't going 110 because my speedometer only goes to 85 and it was stopped there by the post."  The  magistrate basically looked at hiim like this  :confused:

Quote from: rohan on May 25, 2009, 07:56:10 AM
I honestly don't know of anyplace that speeding more than 25 miles per hour is a felony- could be but I've never heard of it.  At worst it's gonna be a reckless driving which is a misdemeanor.   Here the worst it would be is a 25 over speeding ticket- maybe if you were doing something else like passing cars illegally it would be careless driving.  I stopped a car just before getting promoted on a state road we call "M" roads here for doing 110 in a 55 - I wrote him the 110/55.  All he got was 4 points for that and about $300 fine.  OH and the dumbass actually fought it in court.  :rolleyes:  The magistrate just looked at him like he was out of his mind because he said "I know I wasn't going 110 because my speedometer only goes to 85 and it was stopped there by the post."  The  magistrate basically looked at hiim like this  :confused:

If all I was going to get for doing 110 mph was a $300 fine and four points, I'd have quietly paid it and moved on.  Fighting such a light penalty in court is just asking for trouble, IMO.  Never look a gift horse in the mouth.

I think I want to come speed in your state.  I promise I'll be nice and friendly if you pull me over, even if you write me up... :lol:

Quote from: NACar on May 25, 2009, 07:49:31 AM
:pullover:

The funny thing is how nonchalant I was about the whole thing.  I didn't even get that nervous when I saw the trooper with his speed gun pointed.   I thought there was a pretty good chance he'd bust me, but I just resigned myself to it calmly.  I expected to get flagged over by the other member of the tag team a short distance down the road, and I was a little surprised when it never happened.

Quote from: dazzleman on May 25, 2009, 08:10:58 AM
If all I was going to get for doing 110 mph was a $300 fine and four points, I'd have quietly paid it and moved on.  Fighting such a light penalty in court is just asking for trouble, IMO.  Never look a gift horse in the mouth.

I think I want to come speed in your state.  I promise I'll be nice and friendly if you pull me over, even if you write me up... :lol:

I rarely work traffic or patrol anymore but once in a while I still go out and play a little.  right now on this shift we've got 6 cars working traffic on OT on a grant- 4 on click it or ticket and 2 on drunk driving detail-  that's not including the normal 2 traffic enforcement only cars we have on.  Been like that up to about 3-4 am all weekend long. 

Quote from: rohan on May 25, 2009, 09:02:38 AM
I rarely work traffic or patrol anymore but once in a while I still go out and play a little.  right now on this shift we've got 6 cars working traffic on OT on a grant- 4 on click it or ticket and 2 on drunk driving detail-  that's not including the normal 2 traffic enforcement only cars we have on.  Been like that up to about 3-4 am all weekend long. 

Click It or Ticket is such bullshit.  I normally wear my seat belt, but when I see the Click It or Ticket commercials, I sometimes make it a point not to wear it.  What a waste of resources to have 4 cares on Click It or Ticket and only 2 on drunk driving detail.  Which offense is more serious?

Typical that it's paid for by a grant, too.  Let me guess -- federal government?  What a waste of taxpayer money.

Quote from: bing_oh on May 24, 2009, 04:30:01 PM
It's not a matter of "professional courtesy" that an officer in a marked cruiser doesn't get citations when driving contrary to traffic laws. In most states, public safety vehicles are exempt from traffic laws. It's not realistic for me to drive the speed limit on the way to every call, nor is it realistic for me to run lights and sirens to every call. There are urgent calls that require a quicker response but aren't of such a priority to necessitate a hot run. For those, you might very well see me driving above the speed limit without my overhead lights and sirens activated. I'm not doing this for the thrill of speeding or just because I like disregarding the law, I'm doing this because my duty to the public necessitates a quick response to a call for service.

As for off duty, as I've said, that's a hot topic in LE. One arguement is that, as enforcers of the law, we should be held to a higher standard. The other is that we give plenty of professional courtesy to others (ie doctors, nurses, firefighters, soldiers, etc) and alot of warnings to the average joe, so why don't we deserve a break? Quite frankly, I can see both sides of the coin. In the end, I'm not sure why it would be a pet peeve of yours..you have no idea if the guy getting a warning is a LEO when you drive past a traffic stop, nor do you know if he's getting the warning because he "badged" the officer or because he was just another citizen who got a warning instead of a ticket.

This topic really grew fast.

Fair enough, I'll give you that in some (perhaps many) of the cases where I see an officer driving at ticketable speeds without lights or siren he/she is responding to a call that warrants getting there quickly but doesn't necessitate the lights and sound show.  But please explain the following specific incidents I've witnessed over the past several months:

-A highway patrol vehicle blasts past me going 20+ over the limit without lights or siren and then maybe a 1/4 up the road pulls into the police barracks.  What call might they have been responding to at the barracks?  The end of his/her shift?

-A police vehicle with some local town/city markings goes sailing past me at 15-20 over limit on the interstate (on these roads, 10 over usually gets overlooked but I've seen vehicles pass me going 15 over pulled over at some point down the road).  The officer was not in their area of jurisdiction, nor were they anywhere near their home jurisdiction.  In fact, I don't think they were even heading in a direction that would take them to their home jurisdiction.

-I regularly see state and county corrections transport vehicles driving at speeds that would land other motorists a ticket.  I don't think these are even technically emergency vehicles (no lights), though they have police markings on the sides.  Is it that urgent that an inmate get to the jail on time (presuming there was even an inmate in the vehicle)?

My car doesn't move unless everyone's buckled, and it has nothing to do with the law. 

Drunk driving enforcement, however, I do support.  Driving drunk is unacceptable.  There was this pitcher, just a kid, out celebrating his first major league start.  He was killed in a hit and run by a drunk driver.  I never, never drive if I've had over two drinks, or two drinks in less than an hour.

Quote from: MX793 on May 25, 2009, 09:12:35 AM
This topic really grew fast.

Fair enough, I'll give you that in some (perhaps many) of the cases where I see an officer driving at ticketable speeds without lights or siren he/she is responding to a call that warrants getting there quickly but doesn't necessitate the lights and sound show.  But please explain the following specific incidents I've witnessed over the past several months:

-A highway patrol vehicle blasts past me going 20+ over the limit without lights or siren and then maybe a 1/4 up the road pulls into the police barracks.  What call might they have been responding to at the barracks?  The end of his/her shift?

-A police vehicle with some local town/city markings goes sailing past me at 15-20 over limit on the interstate (on these roads, 10 over usually gets overlooked but I've seen vehicles pass me going 15 over pulled over at some point down the road).  The officer was not in their area of jurisdiction, nor were they anywhere near their home jurisdiction.  In fact, I don't think they were even heading in a direction that would take them to their home jurisdiction.

-I regularly see state and county corrections transport vehicles driving at speeds that would land other motorists a ticket.  I don't think these are even technically emergency vehicles (no lights), though they have police markings on the sides.  Is it that urgent that an inmate get to the jail on time (presuming there was even an inmate in the vehicle)?

I actually love it when I see highway patrols blowing by me at high speed.   A few years ago, I was on the Merritt Parkway going about 80 mph, and I saw a state trooper come racing up behind me.  Naturally, I thought I was about to become roadkill figuratively, but I moved over to the right lane, and he just blew past me.  I decided, WTF, let me have some fun with this.  So I pulled in behind him, increased my speed to his, and followed him (at a discreet distance, of course.  Instead of bitching about this stuff, we have to learn to turn it to our advantage.

Quote from: MX793 on May 25, 2009, 09:12:35 AM
But please explain the following specific incidents I've witnessed over the past several months:

No one can explain it because we weren't there- that's like us asking you why someone at your workplace violated some rule when you were on vacation.

Quote-A highway patrol vehicle blasts past me going 20+ over the limit without lights or siren and then maybe a 1/4 up the road pulls into the police barracks.  What call might they have been responding to at the barracks?  The end of his/her shift?

Maybe another officer had someone under arrest there that was causing problems or maybe someone came into the office that was under some kind of medical condition and needed help but didn't need emergency help?  Some departments won't OK OT after you've cleared a call or stop because of all the budget cuts- at that point you're on your own time.

Quote-A police vehicle with some local town/city markings goes sailing past me at 15-20 over limit on the interstate (on these roads, 10 over usually gets overlooked but I've seen vehicles pass me going 15 over pulled over at some point down the road).  The officer was not in their area of jurisdiction, nor were they anywhere near their home jurisdiction.  In fact, I don't think they were even heading in a direction that would take them to their home jurisdiction.

On their way to meet another agency to pickup a prisoner- the Supreme Court has ruled on this requiring us to get there in a reasonable timeframe and not have the badguy waiting in handcuffs for extended periods of time.  Maybe he was headed to back up another officer that needed assistance but wasn't fighting with someone- if my guys dilly-dally going to assist someone from another department who asking for help regardless fo the activity at that moment- and I find out about it they're gonna hear from me.  Officer asks for help there's usually a pretty damn good reason even if he's not actively fighting with someone. 

Quote-I regularly see state and county corrections transport vehicles driving at speeds that would land other motorists a ticket.  I don't think these are even technically emergency vehicles (no lights), though they have police markings on the sides.  Is it that urgent that an inmate get to the jail on time (presuming there was even an inmate in the vehicle)?

They are not police usually they are just some guy working as a turnkey.  Can't blame police for non-police speeding. 

Quote from: dazzleman on May 25, 2009, 09:09:50 AM
Click It or Ticket is such bullshit.  I normally wear my seat belt, but when I see the Click It or Ticket commercials, I sometimes make it a point not to wear it.  What a waste of resources to have 4 cares on Click It or Ticket and only 2 on drunk driving detail.  Which offense is more serious?

Typical that it's paid for by a grant, too.  Let me guess -- federal government?  What a waste of taxpayer money.

I don't agree that it's bullshit they get a lot of drunks off  the road on those details- many drunks don't wear their belts for some reason.  I'ld say they get pretty close to the same amount of drunks as the drunk enforcement does- not sure but I'll check that in the morning when all the details are over.  To be honest sur our guys on the detail write a lot of belt violations but we use those grants to our advantage when we can by asking they use the belt vio.s for more than tickets.  Besides the grant says we only have to have 4 contacts per hour it says nothing about tickets- and our guys are fairly lenient on it.  Yeah it's paid for by the feds the drunk driver one is a state grant deal.  Again I'm not so sure it's a waste if they are finding other issues like suspendeds and drunks or people without insurance and so on that would normally not have gotten stopped because the cars weren't out.

Quote from: dazzleman on May 25, 2009, 09:16:10 AM
I actually love it when I see highway patrols blowing by me at high speed.   A few years ago, I was on the Merritt Parkway going about 80 mph, and I saw a state trooper come racing up behind me.  Naturally, I thought I was about to become roadkill figuratively, but I moved over to the right lane, and he just blew past me.  I decided, WTF, let me have some fun with this.  So I pulled in behind him, increased my speed to his, and followed him (at a discreet distance, of course.  Instead of bitching about this stuff, we have to learn to turn it to our advantage.

Oh, it's ok when they have their lights and sirens blasting so you know they're coming. It's not cool at all when they take you by surprise and nearly run you off the road. There is no reason for that.

Quote from: rohan on May 25, 2009, 09:57:20 AM
I don't agree that it's bullshit they get a lot of drunks off  the road on those details- many drunks don't wear their belts for some reason.  I'ld say they get pretty close to the same amount of drunks as the drunk enforcement does- not sure but I'll check that in the morning when all the details are over.  To be honest sur our guys on the detail write a lot of belt violations but we use those grants to our advantage when we can by asking they use the belt vio.s for more than tickets.  Besides the grant says we only have to have 4 contacts per hour it says nothing about tickets- and our guys are fairly lenient on it.  Yeah it's paid for by the feds the drunk driver one is a state grant deal.  Again I'm not so sure it's a waste if they are finding other issues like suspendeds and drunks or people without insurance and so on that would normally not have gotten stopped because the cars weren't out.

If you're finding other stuff with it, then it probably is worth it.  I take back what I said, and bow to your superior information on the subject.  That reminds me of how, when New York started to crack down on people evading the fares on the subways, they found that most of the people evading fares had guns, arrest warrants out on them, etc.  I guess it's a similar concept.

Quote from: NACar on May 25, 2009, 10:00:20 AM
Oh, it's ok when they have their lights and sirens blasting so you know they're coming. It's not cool at all when they take you by surprise and nearly run you off the road. There is no reason for that.

The guy who came up behind me didn't have lights and sirens.  But I wouldn't say he nearly ran me off the road.  I was going pretty fast myself, and I saw him coming from a good distance.  I thought I was busted, but as I said, he just blew by me after I went over to the right lane.  It was a lot of fun to actually increase my speed in response to seeing a statie, and use him to go even faster than I'd been going before.  He served a valuable purpose in clearing the left lane, something that I couldn't have done.

Quote from: dazzleman on May 25, 2009, 10:47:54 AM
If you're finding other stuff with it, then it probably is worth it.  I take back what I said, and bow to your superior information on the subject.  That reminds me of how, when New York started to crack down on people evading the fares on the subways, they found that most of the people evading fares had guns, arrest warrants out on them, etc.  I guess it's a similar concept.

I don't know anything about the "superior" information thing but that's just what we use it for.   It gets us to be able to stop a lot more cars than we normally would be able to on a weekend like this.  Talking with one of the guys who is going home from his shift he says it's really pretty hard to find anyone without a seatbelt on and they're having to do more regular stuff like speed enforcement to hit the requirement of the grant.

Quote from: dazzleman on May 25, 2009, 05:29:42 AM
So you now agree that we're right, and were all along?  :lol:

Seriously though, I can see where that would be pretty annoying, no matter how misguided the point you were trying to make was... ;)  We'll have to agree to disagree on whose politics is misguided.

All that aside, I have to say that your good-natured skewering of my lame, pseudo-badass persona was hilarious, and perfectly on the mark.  If you can bust my balls and get me to think it's hilarious, then we have to be buddies... :rockon:

I'd also say I pegged you pretty well too.  I picture you out behind the gym in high school when you're supposed to be in class, smoking weed with your stoner buddies, and bitching about the 'fascist' school administrators who have actually been very easy on you and let you get away with a lot. :devil:

:cheers:

Yeah, that's about right. We didn't go behind the gym, though, because we had an open campus and there were other good places to go nearby. We also talked about bikes. :lol:

Quote from: bing_oh on May 25, 2009, 06:43:09 AM
I was thinking I'm more a pseudo-asshole or temporary asshole.

I can get on board with that. It's actually a useful (anti-) social tool to have in the box.  :lol:

Quote from: rohan on May 25, 2009, 01:34:48 PM
I don't know anything about the "superior" information thing but that's just what we use it for.   It gets us to be able to stop a lot more cars than we normally would be able to on a weekend like this.  Talking with one of the guys who is going home from his shift he says it's really pretty hard to find anyone without a seatbelt on and they're having to do more regular stuff like speed enforcement to hit the requirement of the grant.

I just meant you know more about the subject than I do.

Quote from: Psilos on May 25, 2009, 02:41:28 PM
:cheers:

Yeah, that's about right. We didn't go behind the gym, though, because we had an open campus and there were other good places to go nearby. We also talked about bikes. :lol:

That makes sense.  I just picked the gym because it's usually set a bit apart from the rest of the building and has solid walls rather than rows of windows, so you're less likely to be seen there.

Yeah, I think that's a pretty typical place. Also under the bleachers (which we did sometimes). We had some nearby parks and woods, so we usually went there, especially when skipping a class. If it was between classes, we would go less far (duh). I don't think I ever drank during school hours, actually...

Quote from: Psilos on May 25, 2009, 04:15:45 PM
Yeah, I think that's a pretty typical place. Also under the bleachers (which we did sometimes). We had some nearby parks and woods, so we usually went there, especially when skipping a class. If it was between classes, we would go less far (duh). I don't think I ever drank during school hours, actually...

I never drank at school, but we were allowed to leave campus senior year, and sometimes I went out to lunch and drank.  That usually led to some sort of trouble though, so I had to limit it.  One time I got so drink I had to skip both my afternoon classes, and I got in big trouble for that one.  I had to suck it up, because telling the truth would have been worth.  You were lucky you could get away with cutting class.  I never once cut a class without getting in trouble for it.

Quote from: Psilos on May 25, 2009, 02:42:29 PM
I can get on board with that. It's actually a useful (anti-) social tool to have in the box.  :lol:

Being social's highly overrated anyway. :lol:

Quote from: hounddog on May 24, 2009, 06:12:26 PM
So, the firemen do not put stickers on their vehicles there? 

My wife goes to Morristown in a couple weeks, I will have her keep an eye out for those for me to see how prevelant they are.

Do the fireman stickers get them out of tickets? If so, that's just as bad.

Your wife will definitely see the courtesy badges. They're all over the place in N.J. Like I said before, I personally don't hold any resentment or anger about it, but it seems pretty unfair that anyone who's remotely related to a police officer in this state can get one of these things and get out of tickets. It's as if there are two classes of people, and I will admit it's annoying - luckily, I don't spend much time thinking of it, so it never really bothers me to any extent.

Some people take it more seriously, however, and such a public display like the courtesy badge is openly announcing that you're exempt from some aspects of the law.

Quote from: Raza  link=topic=18738.msg1067296#msg1067296 date=1243257243
This is where I have a problem.  You seem to accept that just because a law is on the books it is just, and therefore should be obeyed.  We've had unjust laws in this country before, and while this is nowhere near the level of severity of unjust laws like slavery, segregation, that TARP bonus tax, and other laws, it still shouldn't be accepted just because it exists. 

Speed limits are arbitrary restraints and a restriction on our personal freedom (I will not address the revenue issue, though, at this time.  For now, let's leave that out of it).  While I agree that driver training should be better in this country, I think that the fact that many people tend to drive 15-20mph over the limit safely everyday should lead you to the conclusion that speed limits are artificially low.  I'm not completely opposed to speed limits; I'd just want logical ones based on empirical data and not political appeasement.

The issue is who, at which, the anger over this "injustice" is directed. The cop who pulled you over? He's doing his job - what do you expect? The anger should be directed at the politicians. The thing is, we're in the minority. Most politicians I've spoken to have said they get tons of complaints about "those damn speeders" and want to lower speed limits. It's NOT all about revenue - speeding is a big-time complaint local politicians get, and they pride themselves on responding by lowering speed limits.

Quote from: TurboDan on May 25, 2009, 06:23:05 PM
The issue is who, at which, the anger over this "injustice" is directed. The cop who pulled you over? He's doing his job - what do you expect? The anger should be directed at the politicians. The thing is, we're in the minority. Most politicians I've spoken to have said they get tons of complaints about "those damn speeders" and want to lower speed limits. It's NOT all about revenue - speeding is a big-time complaint local politicians get, and they pride themselves on responding by lowering speed limits.

I believe that officers individually and the institution of law enforcement collectively have a moral obligation to speak up as professionals against laws that fail to fulfill the promise under which they were implemented.  If speed limits fail to affect key measures of traffic safety ? using official enforcement data, BTW ? they must be rescinded and LEOs have an obligation to ask for that rescission.  Politicians are even worse because they have whored themselves to the special interests (read, insurance industry) and give us the constant drivel that they get complaints about all the speeders, blah, blah.  Yet, when voters have been offered an actual vote on traffic law enforcement ? usually red light cameras and/or photo-radar ? they have voted down extra enforcement in every single case. 

Quote from: James Young on May 25, 2009, 06:35:16 PM
I believe that officers individually and the institution of law enforcement collectively have a moral obligation to speak up as professionals against laws that fail to fulfill the promise under which they were implemented.  If speed limits fail to affect key measures of traffic safety ? using official enforcement data, BTW ? they must be rescinded and LEOs have an obligation to ask for that rescission.  Politicians are even worse because they have whored themselves to the special interests (read, insurance industry) and give us the constant drivel that they get complaints about all the speeders, blah, blah.  Yet, when voters have been offered an actual vote on traffic law enforcement ? usually red light cameras and/or photo-radar ? they have voted down extra enforcement in every single case. 

I'm sure you're right on the cams, but I've covered local and county meetings for the newspaper and have heard people screaming about speeders to the governing bodies. While I don't doubt the politicians are in bed with the insurance industry, that's really only a part of why they want low speed limits.

You are correct; it is only part of their position.  They are pandering to an audience, albeit a small but noisy audience.  They want to appear to be doing something (anything!) about an issue perceived as a problem even though real evidence shows that it is not a problem.  I have lobbied many state legislators in OK, TX, UT and CA and realize that they are not scientists, do not think scientifically and they are horribly ignorant about so much it is frightening.  Their sine qua non is reelection and avoiding negative votes is a critical part of that process.  Only when they start to get repercussions from pandering votes will they change their tune.

Quote from: bing_oh on May 25, 2009, 04:23:45 PM
Being social's highly overrated anyway. :lol:

Hence, this forum. :ohyeah:

In all fairness and honesty. Although officers receive a lot of crap, and get paid too little, I respect what they do, and I think it would be a decent job for me, even. I just can't see myself in an office all day, no matter how much more I would be making.

Quote from: James Young on May 25, 2009, 06:35:16 PM
I believe that officers individually and the institution of law enforcement collectively have a moral obligation to speak up as professionals against laws that fail to fulfill the promise under which they were implemented.  If speed limits fail to affect key measures of traffic safety ? using official enforcement data, BTW ? they must be rescinded and LEOs have an obligation to ask for that rescission.  Politicians are even worse because they have whored themselves to the special interests (read, insurance industry) and give us the constant drivel that they get complaints about all the speeders, blah, blah.  Yet, when voters have been offered an actual vote on traffic law enforcement ? usually red light cameras and/or photo-radar ? they have voted down extra enforcement in every single case. 

Officers are "morally obligated?" 

Common, now it is getting deep in here.  :rolleyes:  Talk about self serving vitriolic rhetoric.

The only thing police are morally obliged to do is to uphold the Constitution of the United States and the State of ___________ (insert whatever state your department is in), and to do their job to the best of their ability.  Their ENTIRE job, which just so happens includes traffic enforcement in many cases.  My oath said nothing about attempting to get laws some do not agree with removed, recinded, appealed or stricken.  If anything, with the amount of citizen complaints police get regarding speeding, we should be pushing harder for stricter laws.

Since you are such an advocate of Mark Twain quotes, "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."

Quote from: hounddog on May 28, 2009, 04:42:08 AM
Officers are "morally obligated?" 

Common, now it is getting deep in here.  :rolleyes:  Talk about self serving vitriolic rhetoric.

The only thing police are morally obliged to do is to uphold the Constitution of the United States and the State of ___________ (insert whatever state your department is in), and to do their job to the best of their ability.  Their ENTIRE job, which just so happens includes traffic enforcement in many cases.  My oath said nothing about attempting to get laws some do not agree with removed, recinded, appealed or stricken.  If anything, with the amount of citizen complaints police get regarding speeding, we should be pushing harder for stricter laws.

Since you are such an advocate of Mark Twain quotes, "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."

Agreed.  The police are part of the executive branch.  Their sole job is to enforce the law.  They have no business legislating (legislative) or interpreting (judicial) the law.

Quote from: MX793 on May 28, 2009, 04:32:51 PM
Agreed.  The police are part of the executive branch.  Their sole job is to enforce the law.  They have no business legislating (legislative) or interpreting (judicial) the law.

The "just following orders" argument?  I'm not sure how I feel about that. 

Our president is the executive branch of our federal government, but he sure has a lot of influence on legislation. 

Quote from: Raza  on May 28, 2009, 11:26:57 PM
The "just following orders" argument?  I'm not sure how I feel about that. 

Our president is the executive branch of our federal government, but he sure has a lot of influence on legislation.

It's not "just following orders," it's separation of powers, a vital component in our system of government that tries to guarantee that no one branch has too much power.

Is it a good thing that the President can influence legislation before it's passed by Congress? Or is that a misuse of power that has become so commonplace that it's been accepted? Personally, I don't see "politics as usual" as a good thing. Our governmental system had been horribly bastardized from what our Founding Fathers intended.

Quote from: Raza  on May 28, 2009, 11:26:57 PM
The "just following orders" argument?  I'm not sure how I feel about that. 

Our president is the executive branch of our federal government, but he sure has a lot of influence on legislation. 

That is not quite what we mean.  We simply mean that police officers have really and ultimately only one simple rule to follow; enforce the laws that are currently on the books as fairly and impartially as we can humanly muster.  We may not like them, but we are bound by oath and law to enforce them. 

And, sure, that argument is pretty forceful in connection to traffic laws where discretion can often mean mercy on our part.  But, we are paid to enforce the law of the day which at this point includes traffic enforcement.

Simply doing our job is not quite the same thing as the old "just following orders" argument.  The laws allow us to refuse unlawful, illegal or unethical and immoral orders. 

Quote from: hounddog on May 29, 2009, 08:21:37 PM
That is not quite what we mean.  We simply mean that police officers have really and ultimately only one simple rule to follow; enforce the laws that are currently on the books as fairly and impartially as we can humanly muster.  We may not like them, but we are bound by oath and law to enforce them. 

And, sure, that argument is pretty forceful in connection to traffic laws where discretion can often mean mercy on our part.  But, we are paid to enforce the law of the day which at this point includes traffic enforcement.

Simply doing our job is not quite the same thing as the old "just following orders" argument.  The laws allow us to refuse unlawful, illegal or unethical and immoral orders. 

Just stop denying that you're a storm trooper, Tony..... :devil:

I do not think that I ever actually denied it.  ;)  :lol:

Coincidentally, Storm Troopers just so happen to be my favorite characters in the Star Wars movies.  Likewise the Jem-Haddar in the Star Trek series.

I just was a little gung-ho after my previous service.  Plus, I believe that good cops actively search out crime in all forms. 

Quote from: hounddog on May 29, 2009, 08:37:37 PM
I do not think that I ever actually denied it.  ;)  :lol:

Coincidentally, Storm Troopers just so happen to be my favorite characters in the Star Wars movies.  Likewise the Jem-Haddar in the Star Trek series.

I just was a little gung-ho after my previous service.  Plus, I believe that good cops actively search out crime in all forms. 

I find police work and procedures very interesting, though I'd surely be a terrible cop.  I'm not observant enough, and I don't have a good enough facial recognition ability, IMO.

Hounddog questions:  {Officers are "morally obligated?"}

Yes, unless, of course, you abandon your humanity when you put on the badge.  This is an obligation that supersedes your role and mine in society.  Great men than each of us have pointed to this obligation.  Edmund Burke said ?All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.?  Albert Einstein said in a similar vein:  ?The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.?

{My oath said nothing about attempting to get laws some do not agree with removed, recinded, appealed or stricken.  If anything, with the amount of citizen complaints police get regarding speeding, we should be pushing harder for stricter laws.}

Your oath has nothing to do with this obligation.  All of us bear the burden to participate to our ability in our society and that includes criticizing bad laws or laws that fail to fulfill their purpose.  As publically trained, equipped and commissioned experts, police officers have an extraordinary duty to contribute.  As MX793 points out, LEOs are members of the executive branch of government and do not legislate.  This is true but executives propose changes in laws regularly and propose new legislation as well as rescinding extant law; indeed, that is one of their functions:  to propose changes upon which the legislative branch can argue and vote.  You see your role too narrowly.  Consider two masons working side by side on the same job; one guy thinks he is laying bricks; the other guy believes he is building a great cathedral to the glory of god.  Are you content to just laying bricks?

Laws need not be based on the bleating of ignorant cranks who complain because they have nothing else to do but should be based on scientific evidence, especially in the case of a law allegedly dependent on science and engineering.  Further, any law that fails to eventuate its alleged goal, must be modified or rescinded because bad laws generate disrespect for all laws.

That some will miss or violate this obligation is sad but unsurprising.

{Since you are such an advocate of Mark Twain quotes, "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."}
 
Which, of course, is true if one cannot distinguish between a tool and a weapon. 

Quote from: James Young on May 30, 2009, 11:45:51 PM

Laws need not be based on the bleating of ignorant cranks who complain because they have nothing else to do but should be based on scientific evidence, especially in the case of a law allegedly dependent on science and engineering.  Further, any law that fails to eventuate its alleged goal, must be modified or rescinded because bad laws generate disrespect for all laws.

Have you ever observed how our political system works?  Ignorant cranks have the greatest say of anybody in making our laws.

"Are you content to just laying bricks?"

In your rather unfledged example both are, in the end, simply laying bricks. 

"Which, of course, is true if one cannot distinguish between a tool and a weapon."
Which, of course, was not the speakers point at all.  Nice to see you again, "Mr. Cozen."

Quote from: James Young on May 30, 2009, 11:45:51 PM
You see your role too narrowly.  

One of the biggest problems in our society today is that people don't know their roles. The role of a police officer is to enforce the law, I don't see why he or she is obligated to do anything besides that. Sure, as a private, taxpaying citizen, there's nothing wrong with an officer writing to his representatives or doing something anyone else would do like attending a meeting and speaking, but I would think there would be some sort of conflict of interest if officers started speaking out specifically against the laws that they are charged with enforcing. It undermines the rule of law, in my opinion, if an officer does something like that in an official capacity.

While I'm not a fan of politicians playing political games with speed limits, it's on US as citizens to try and change the tide. It's not up to police officers to add another duty to their busy schedules unless they do so as private citizens.

Police officer have to enforce the law.

I saw The Hammer on "Speeders" on the Tru channel.

He said he gave his own mother a ticket.

I wonder how Christmas went. He probably got hog manure. Oh that's the worst.

Quote from: TurboDan on June 01, 2009, 06:58:54 PM
One of the biggest problems in our society today is that people don't know their roles. The role of a police officer is to enforce the law, I don't see why he or she is obligated to do anything besides that. Sure, as a private, taxpaying citizen, there's nothing wrong with an officer writing to his representatives or doing something anyone else would do like attending a meeting and speaking, but I would think there would be some sort of conflict of interest if officers started speaking out specifically against the laws that they are charged with enforcing. It undermines the rule of law, in my opinion, if an officer does something like that in an official capacity.

While I'm not a fan of politicians playing political games with speed limits, it's on US as citizens to try and change the tide. It's not up to police officers to add another duty to their busy schedules unless they do so as private citizens.

I learned several long-standing rules early on in my career.

1. If they cry, they get a ticket.

2. If they're hot and flirting, they get a ticket.

3. On duty, I have NO opinion.

The third one is probably the most important. I hold many, many personal opinions. Some of them pertain to the law and how our government runs. But, if I want to have any hope of being fair and impartial in the application of the law, I have to put those opinions aside when I put on my uniform every day. For that reason and that reason alone, not only would I not be obligated to try to influence the law as a police officer, it would be wholly inapproprate. If I try to do so as a private, voting citizen, so be it...but, in that capacity, I'm not a LEO.

Rule 4. On duty, you recommend no business to any civilian for any reason.

Quote from: hounddog on June 01, 2009, 07:48:20 PM
Rule 4. On duty, you recommend no business to any civilian for any reason.

Shit, I'm pretty sure we have a policy on that.

See. 

:lol:

Quote from: hounddog on June 01, 2009, 07:48:20 PM
Rule 4. On duty, you recommend no business to any civilian for any reason.

I'm glad you weren't on duty when I was asking about boat stereos a few months back. I got a sweet deal on a head unit and waterproof speakers from the site you recommended.

Consumers Marine Electronics is a great place.  I am glad they could help you out, and that it worked out for you.  Everyone here could use them for good stereos, amps and speakers among other things.

I am thinking about getting a Sea King gyro satellite TV receiver from them.
http://www.consumersmarine.com/modperl/product/details.cgi?i=540064&pdesc=Sea_King_15_1500_HD_Stabilized_Marine_Satellite_TV_Antenna&cname=Satellite-TV-Antennas&aID=40G1&merchID=3006&r=view

Quote from: hounddog on June 02, 2009, 12:02:14 AM
Consumers Marine Electronics is a great place.  I am glad they could help you out, and that it worked out for you.  Everyone here could use them for good stereos, amps and speakers among other things.

I am thinking about getting a Sea King gyro satellite TV receiver from them.
http://www.consumersmarine.com/modperl/product/details.cgi?i=540064&pdesc=Sea_King_15_1500_HD_Stabilized_Marine_Satellite_TV_Antenna&cname=Satellite-TV-Antennas&aID=40G1&merchID=3006&r=view

Cool! Do you have any pics of where you're thinking of mounting it? Looks pretty heavy. Do you do a lot of overnights out on the water?

And yeah, the stereo is great. What I instantly liked about it was the fact that it had an SD card reader instead of a CD player. Uses less power and since there are no moving parts, it's no-skip. Plus I can drag and drop the files from my computer to the card and head down to the dock. It has a USB charging port built in too for my phone.

I would put it on the radar arch to the port side of centered.  The stantion light up there (laid back in the photo) is center and the spotlight is slightly starboard.  They weigh about 20 pounds so the weight would be essentially not a factor to the boat.

(http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff207/lawhog/IMG_0867-2.jpg)

hounddog writes:  {In your rather unfledged example both are, in the end, simply laying bricks.}
In your view and, perhaps, in mine as well because self-perception is very often limited and limiting.  To the two guys, the difference is palpable.  Are you serving a higher societal purpose or are you simply serving citations?  The more important question is, ?do you care?? 
     
{Which, of course, was not the speakers point at all.  Nice to see you again, "Mr. Cozen."}

Actually, it was Disraeli?s point and the quote is from him originally; Twain merely popularized it in America.  It refers, of course, to the use of statistics to bolster an invalid argument and to the derision of statistics that do not support an argument.  Statistics in the hands of experts are tools, elegant devices to reveal truth that is otherwise obscured by the complexity or broadness of an issue when used honestly.
 
Since the statistics that I use are frequently from police and official enforcement data ? required by federal law to be reported to NHTSA and already biased in your favor ? and since my academic sources are peer-reviewed, I stand by any statistics that I have posted here.  If you disagree with the data or the conclusions, you are certainly invited to write a response to the academic studies, present your own credentials, data, methodology and conclusions.  In fact, if you can prove them wrong or misleading and prove, for example, that higher average speeds cause more crashes, injuries or fatalities, the insurance industry will pay you really big dollars.  If you cannot dispute the validity of data from me, NHTSA or academic sources, then you need to be very cautious about criticizing things that you know nothing about just because I piss you off.

My credentials have been posted here several times, yours however;  :huh:

Quote from: hounddog on June 02, 2009, 08:25:54 PM
I would put it on the radar arch to the port side of centered.  The stantion light up there (laid back in the photo) is center and the spotlight is slightly starboard.  They weigh about 20 pounds so the weight would be essentially not a factor to the boat.

(http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff207/lawhog/IMG_0867-2.jpg)

Did you have some issues with paint up there by the electrical cables or what?  :lol:

Yeah, I am not sure why it did that.  :lol:

I was too lazy to redo it, so I just posted it.

BTW, look into Raymarine for Satellite TV, it's what we have and it's great. We can watch TV from the helm from our dual Raymarine E120's.  :lol: Couldn't do that if we had bought some other brand. It's quite useful actually, able to get weather or sports or what have you on one, and the camera/radar/chartplotter/sonar/whathaveyou on the other.

Quote from: Minpin on June 09, 2009, 11:36:21 PM
BTW, look into Raymarine for Satellite TV, it's what we have and it's great. We can watch TV from the helm from our dual Raymarine E120's.  :lol: Couldn't do that if we had bought some other brand. It's quite useful actually, able to get weather or sports or what have you on one, and the camera/radar/chartplotter/sonar/whathaveyou on the other.

I do not have Raymarine electronics, so it would not be any better fit than the Sea King system.  Raymarine does have some cool interoperabilty in their packages though. 

If I ever re-plug, or replace my boat I will probably switch to them.

I think that professional courtesy of any type should play only a minor role; if any role at all. Laws apply to everyone; if you break one and get caught (and many off duty LEOs do and many of them boast about being able to get away with it, not necessarily the people on those board mind you) you should receive the due punishment regardless of what your job is.

Every job has it's perkes no matter what it is.  McDonalds employees eat free- some get cars they can use for their own business- others get to use boats that the company owns- while others can use law firms/cpa's- some people even get their company to pay for some of their living expenses.  Speeding is low on the severity list and everyone here will probably agree with it.  As long as it's not reckless speeding like 110/25 zone what's the big deal if the officer gets a pass as a perk of his job?  Seriously?  All of know that there's always a chance we could get hooked up by some cop for our speeding and if they're like me they'll take their lumps and just pony up the cash.    (looking for real honest debate here)

Quote from: rohan on June 14, 2009, 03:33:34 PM
Every job has it's perkes no matter what it is.  McDonalds employees eat free- some get cars they can use for their own business- others get to use boats that the company owns- while others can use law firms/cpa's- some people even get their company to pay for some of their living expenses.  Speeding is low on the severity list and everyone here will probably agree with it.  As long as it's not reckless speeding like 110/25 zone what's the big deal if the officer gets a pass as a perk of his job?  Seriously?  All of know that there's always a chance we could get hooked up by some cop for our speeding and if they're like me they'll take their lumps and just pony up the cash.    (looking for real honest debate here)

Faulty analogy, if a McDonalds worker gets free food it is due to corporate policy and is considered part of his/her compensation (and in some states is probably taxed). Furthermore, I have never heard of a fast food joint that allowed workers to get free food when off duty.

I used to work at Chick-fil-A. Suppose I gave a chicken sandwich to an off duty coworker. If caught, I would be fired.

Ok that one wasn't so good but the rest apply. 

Quote from: rohan on June 14, 2009, 03:51:59 PM
Ok that one wasn't so good but the rest apply. 

Company cars/boats/legal services/accounting services are all part of compensation and part of corporate policy. "Professional courtesy" isn't considered part of your compensation and surely it isn't included in departmental policy. In fact, I think an argument could be made that it is actually illegal in that you are unequally applying the law.

Not illegal but maybe possibly unethical if anything.  I just don't have a problem with it- I don't really have the time to debate it at the moment I have to go out and help someone.  I'll be back to talk more about it when I get a chance.

Quote from: rohan on June 14, 2009, 03:57:03 PM
Not illegal but maybe possibly unethical if anything.  I just don't have a problem with it- I don't really have the time to debate it at the moment I have to go out and help someone.  I'll be back to talk more about it when I get a chance.

I don't know, seems pretty discriminatory to me.

A comparable, private sector example would be someone buying a co-worker a $200 camera for personal use using the corporate credit card. It is hard to imagine that, if this was noticed, (I am not sure how rigorous companies are at verifying purchases made with corporate cards are actually business related) disciplinary action wouldn't occur.

As TBR has pointed out, the analogy is faulty.  ?Professional courtesy,? which is better denominated ?professional hypocrisy,? is not yours to be given out and is not a formalized corporate or public policy.  Some perks are de minimus and even IRS ignores them; free food at McDonalds for example.  I get an industry pass to movies since one of my jobs is in the industry.    Some perks are in a gray area above de minimus but not necessarily substantive; airline miles resulting from company-paid business travel, for example, and IRS looks at them occasionally.  

Company cars, boats, country club memberships, free professional advice, and elevated pension or separation plans result from formal corporate and/or board approval and are taxable at fair market value.  Not even a corporate officer can provide a company car to a corporate officer of another company, say a favored customer.

I find the practice unethical and hypocritical because you are giving away something that you have no right to give away simply because of characteristics of the perpetrator.  Further, you may consider speeding to be low on the severity list (and I agree) but that raises the question why it is the most enforced statute in the book by far more than two to one for all others combined.  Finally, many speeding fines are approaching the $500 mark now, much higher if the ancillary tickets are added on, so the amount avoided is going above the de minimus level.

Quote from: James Young on June 14, 2009, 04:13:02 PM
As TBR has pointed out, the analogy is faulty.  ?professional courtesy,? which is better denominated ?profession hypocrisy,? is not yours to be given out and is not a formalized corporate or public policy.  Some perks are de minimus and even IRS ignores them; free food at McDonalds for example.  I get an industry pass to movies since one of my jobs is in the industry.    Some perks are in a gray area above de minimus but not necessarily substantive; airline miles resulting from company-paid business travel, for example, and IRS looks at them occasionally.  

Company cars, boats, country club memberships, free professional advice, and elevated pension or separation plans result from formal corporate and/or board approval and are taxable at fair market value.  Not even a corporate officer can provide a company car to a corporate officer of another company, say a favored customer.

I find the practice unethical and hypocritical because you are giving away something that you have no right to give away simply because of characteristics of the perpetrator.  Further, you may consider speeding to be low on the severity list (and I agree) but that raises the question why it is the most enforced statute in the book by far more than two to one for all others combined.  Finally, many speeding fines are approaching the $500 mark now, much higher if the ancillary tickets are added on, so the amount avoided is going above the de minimus level.

It is also worth noting that country club memberships, company cars, use of a corporate jet, etc are often given out to facilitate business.

Quote from: TBR on June 14, 2009, 03:23:01 PM
I think that professional courtesy of any type should play only a minor role; if any role at all. Laws apply to everyone; if you break one and get caught (and many off duty LEOs do and many of them boast about being able to get away with it, not necessarily the people on those board mind you) you should receive the due punishment regardless of what your job is.

In an ideal world, that would happen.  In the real world, we fall short of perfection.  While 'professional courtesy' for minor traffic offenses really isn't right, it's probably one of the least pressing problems our society has.  I don't waste much time getting worked up about it.

Quote from: dazzleman on June 14, 2009, 05:13:22 PM
In an ideal world, that would happen.  In the real world, we fall short of perfection.  While 'professional courtesy' for minor traffic offenses really isn't right, it's probably one of the least pressing problems our society has.  I don't waste much time getting worked up about it.

Same here. As a whole I have had a relatively positive experience with the police, but if they are going to hold us to a standard why should they hold themselves to a different one? I'd put money on it that if I had been a cop I wouldn't have gotten that ticket for that 68 in a 55.

Quote from: TBR on June 14, 2009, 05:16:58 PM
Same here. As a whole I have had a relatively positive experience with the police, but if they are going to hold us to a standard why should they hold themselves to a different one? I'd put money on it that if I had been a cop I wouldn't have gotten that ticket for that 68 in a 55.

I'm sure you're right.  And I probably wouldn't have gotten any of the tickets I've gotten either.

But how much does it really matter?  Don't get me wrong; I think that when professional courtesy extends to serious violations, there's a real problem.  But every job has its little perks, right or wrong.  I've been helped enough by the police to look past little pecadillos like this and see the big picture.  Our society is much better off because of the police in almost all cases, even with their imperfections.

Quote from: dazzleman on June 14, 2009, 05:19:41 PM
I'm sure you're right.  And I probably wouldn't have gotten any of the tickets I've gotten either.

But how much does it really matter?  Don't get me wrong; I think that when professional courtesy extends to serious violations, there's a real problem.  But every job has its little perks, right or wrong.  I've been helped enough by the police to look past little pecadillos like this and see the big picture.  Our society is much better off because of the police in almost all cases, even with their imperfections.

Considering the fanfare certain executives have gotten recently for their perks and bonuses, I don't see how this doesn't warrant our attention.

Quote from: TBR on June 14, 2009, 05:44:47 PM
Considering the fanfare certain executives have gotten recently for their perks and bonuses, I don't see how this doesn't warrant our attention.

I assume you're joking.... :lol:

Quote from: dazzleman on June 14, 2009, 05:47:41 PM
I assume you're joking.... :lol:

Kind of, but kind of not.

While I do feel like the criticism of the executives was meant to do no more than stir up ratings and votes, I think this kind of behavior is far more egregious in that the very people upholding our laws are subverting them on a regular, nationwide basis.

Quote from: TBR on June 14, 2009, 05:51:15 PM
Kind of, but kind of not.

While I do feel like the criticism of the executives was meant to do no more than stir up ratings and votes, I think this kind of behavior is far more egregious in that the very people upholding our laws are subverting them on a regular, nationwide basis.

There's not enough money involved to get people too riled up.

Quote from: dazzleman on June 14, 2009, 05:54:39 PM
There's not enough money involved to get people too riled up.

In my eyes it isn't about the money.

Merely from a PR POV I would think that LEOs would be very much against "professional courtesy". Ask someone who dislikes or distrusts law enforcement why they feel the way they do, and I bet professional courtesy comes up.

Quote from: TBR on June 14, 2009, 05:56:45 PM
In my eyes it isn't about the money.

Merely from a PR POV I would think that LEOs would be very much against "professional courtesy". Ask someone who dislikes or distrusts law enforcement why they feel the way they do, and I bet professional courtesy comes up.

Most people who dislike law enforcement do so because they don't like being corrected, even when they know they're wrong, and they're overlooking the benefits law enforcement brings to society because they can't get past the fact they got a ticket they deserved.  Professional courtesy is an excuse, not a strong reason.

There are surely some people who have valid reasons to dislike law enforcement.  Maybe they were subject to a false arrest, treated badly in the process, etc.  I know these things happen.  But if professional courtesy for minor offenses is the reason to dislike law enforcement (and let's face it, the only people who actually care about that are people who've been ticketed for minor offenses themselves), then that's pretty wimpy and lame, IMO.

Quote from: dazzleman on June 14, 2009, 05:59:57 PM
Most people who dislike law enforcement do so because they don't like being corrected, even when they know they're wrong, and they're overlooking the benefits law enforcement brings to society because they can't get past the fact they got a ticket they deserved.  Professional courtesy is an excuse, not a strong reason.

There are surely some people who have valid reasons to dislike law enforcement.  Maybe they were subject to a false arrest, treated badly in the process, etc.  I know these things happen.  But if professional courtesy for minor offenses is the reason to dislike law enforcement (and let's face it, the only people who actually care about that are people who've been ticketed for minor offenses themselves), then that's pretty wimpy and lame, IMO.

I don't see how disliking a group of people that consistently holds a double standard is wimpy or lame.

(note- I don't dislike cops, like you I feel they perform a valuable service. But, as whole LE isn't perfect and to treat it as if it is, as some of the LEOs on this board do, is a disservice.)

Quote from: TBR on June 14, 2009, 06:02:27 PM
I don't see how disliking a group of people that consistently holds a double standard is wimpy or lame.

(note- I don't dislike cops, like you I feel they perform a valuable service. But, as whole LE isn't perfect and to treat it as if it is, as some of the LEOs on this board do, is a disservice.)

I wouldn't claim it's perfect, but no human institution is.  It's good to have some perspective.  People often use the perceived imperfections of others to rationalize imperfections of their own that are sometimes much greater.  Not a good practice.

Quote from: dazzleman on June 14, 2009, 06:03:29 PM
I wouldn't claim it's perfect, but no human institution is.  It's good to have some perspective.  People often use the perceived imperfections of others to rationalize imperfections of their own that are sometimes much greater.  Not a good practice.

But we are talking about imperfection in an institution.

Quote from: TBR on June 14, 2009, 06:04:50 PM
But we are talking about imperfection in an institution.

I know.  Find me an institution that's perfect.

Quote from: dazzleman on June 14, 2009, 06:32:43 PM
I know.  Find me an institution that's perfect.

Of course I can't do that, I am merely pointing out that while your statement that a person pointing out a fault in someone else is likely covering a fault of their own is true, we aren't talking about individual people in this case. I don't see how pointing out an almost undeniable flaw in LE somehow means I am covering a flaw in my own personal character.

Quote from: TBR on June 14, 2009, 06:46:22 PM
Of course I can't do that, I am merely pointing out that while your statement that a person pointing out a fault in someone else is likely covering a fault of their own is true, we aren't talking about individual people in this case. I don't see how pointing out an almost undeniable flaw in LE somehow means I am covering a flaw in my own personal character.

It may not mean that in your case, but for many people, it does.  Some people just can't stand being corrected or penalized, and they stay angry about it, and use the fact that LEOs could do the same thing and get away with it as a reason to think they should have gotten away with it too.  I guess I've been corrected and penalized for stuff like that enough times that I learned to laugh it off, rather than let it eat away at me like that.

I think you're simply a perfectionist.  Nothing really wrong with that, as long as you're prepared to deal with disappointment.

Quote from: dazzleman on June 14, 2009, 06:50:19 PM
It may not mean that in your case, but for many people, it does.  Some people just can't stand being corrected or penalized, and they stay angry about it, and use the fact that LEOs could do the same thing and get away with it as a reason to think they should have gotten away with it too.  I guess I've been corrected and penalized for stuff like that enough times that I learned to laugh it off, rather than let it eat away at me like that.

I think you're simply a perfectionist.  Nothing really wrong with that, as long as you're prepared to deal with disappointment.

I understand what you're saying, but isn't it true? If an off duty LEO can get away with it, why shouldn't a private citizen be able to?

Quote from: TBR on June 14, 2009, 06:54:37 PM
I understand what you're saying, but isn't it true? If an off duty LEO can get away with it, why shouldn't a private citizen be able to?

I never said you were wrong.  You're a perfectionist and the world isn't perfect.  What should be, and what actually are, are too very different things.  In all these cases, we have to make a decision whether an injustice is worth worrying about.  In life, you have to pick your battles.  We'll never right all the wrong in the world.  This ranks pretty low on the scale.

Quote from: dazzleman on June 14, 2009, 06:57:04 PM
I never said you were wrong.  You're a perfectionist and the world isn't perfect.  What should be, and what actually are, are too very different things.  In all these cases, we have to make a decision whether an injustice is worth worrying about.  In life, you have to pick your battles.  We'll never right all the wrong in the world.  This ranks pretty low on the scale.

As far as LE is concerned, I don't think it is as minor as you make it out to be since we're talking about the respect and trust, two things vital to keeping peace. Additionally, I don't think the fix would be all that difficult. All it would take would be people in authority in LE telling the officers that a double standard for off-duty LEOs (or those belonging to other emergency response professions)  isn't appropriate.

Quote from: TBR on June 14, 2009, 07:02:09 PM
As far as LE is concerned, I don't think it is as minor as you make it out to be since we're talking about the respect and trust, two things vital to keeping peace. Additionally, I don't think the fix would be all that difficult. All it would take would be people in authority in LE telling the officers (or those belonging to other emergency response professions) that a double standard for off-duty LEOs isn't appropriate.

As I said, I don't disagree with you, but we're going around in circles here.  You're like a dog with a bone with this argument.... :lol:  I think we simply have to agree to disagree about how big a problem professional courtesy for minor traffic offenses is.  I would never support it for more serious offenses.

Quote from: TBR on June 14, 2009, 06:02:27 PM
I don't see how disliking a group of people that consistently holds a double standard is wimpy or lame.

(note- I don't dislike cops, like you I feel they perform a valuable service. But, as whole LE isn't perfect and to treat it as if it is, as some of the LEOs on this board do, is a disservice.)

Let me ask you this then do you go through your life without "committing" a double standard?  And also do you believe then that everybody we stop should automatically get tickets?  Because that's the same thing- we have discretion to write or not wirte everyone we stop.  If we have to write every cop we stop then we better be writting every citizen we stop as well.

Quote from: TBR on June 14, 2009, 06:54:37 PM
I understand what you're saying, but isn't it true? If an off duty LEO can get away with it, why shouldn't a private citizen be able to?

They do.  Police as a general population don't write everyone we stop in fact it's probably about 50% or less from my experience.

Quote from: TBR on June 14, 2009, 06:02:27 PM

(note- I don't dislike cops, like you I feel they perform a valuable service. But, as whole LE isn't perfect and to treat it as if it is, as some of the LEOs on this board do, is a disservice.)

I'm calling bs on that one.  Not one single guy here who's a cop has ever said anything of the sort in fact we've all said we're only human at least once.  

Quote from: TBR on June 14, 2009, 06:02:27 PM
I don't see how disliking a group of people that consistently holds a double standard is wimpy or lame.

(note- I don't dislike cops, like you I feel they perform a valuable service. But, as whole LE isn't perfect and to treat it as if it is, as some of the LEOs on this board do, is a disservice.)

But, it's not a double standard. I've never given a break to a LEO that I havn't given to a civilian. People use the term "professional courtesy," but it's really just "officer discretion," something that I give to non-LEO drivers each and every day when I decide to issue a warning instead of a citation. In fact, realistically, I give alot more warnings to civilian drivers than I give to LEO's. When it comes to criminal violations, "professional courtesy" doesn't apply (at least, not for me, and not for any other LEO I've ever worked with).

A little late to the thread, but my friend's dad has a red "MD" sticker on the back of his BMW 750Li. I've never seen it before on another car, but apparently it allows him to park where he isn't supposed to or to speed. My parents don't have one, although my mom certainly could have used it given how many speeding tickets she got! :lol:

But he doesn't abuse it. He was driving his son & I back from a Padres game and he got a ticket for speeding. He says it's only for emergency purposes.

On topic, my uncle was telling me about his neighbor who gets off every time she gets pulled over because her dad or brother (I can't remember which) is the chief of police. That's pretty awful but it doesn't really make me that mad. Do you really expect a cop to give the chief's sister a speeding ticket?!

Give me a break.... :lol: Cops are human after all.

Just be glad it isn't Iran or something where the cop can go kill somebody or rape someone's daughter and get off because he's a cop. I don't think a speeding ticket here or there is that big of a deal. It's not right, but I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

BingOh and Rohan, I have question.

I just realized that I drove up to SF without my driver's license. I took everything out of my wallet in SD searching for a card and forgot to put everything back in.

If you pull someone over and they don't have their driver's license on them...what do you do? My license is valid and believe it or not, I actually don't have any warrants out for me.

Still, I don't want to say to the policeman like the idiots on Cops do, "I actually don't have it with me."

:lol:

I bet you've heard that one more than once!

Also, this type of 'preferential treatment' applies to most industries. When my brother had surgery a year ago to have his appendix removed, I noticed that there always seemed to be more nurses on hand/checking on him. Their response to anything was almost instant. His doctors seemed to drop by more frequently and stay longer (the pain doc happened to be his godfather, so maybe that's part of it  :tounge: and others were family friends).  I spend a lot of time in hospitals and this wasn't normal procedure.

Is it right? No. But that's just the way things are. It wasn't way, way over the top treatment but it was clear he was being treated a little differently. I asked my dad if he told his colleagues to keep a special eye out for his second favorite son and he said no. Given the same last name and relatively small hospital, I'm sure it wasn't hard to figure out he was DocBenzs' son. While he said he was probably treated a little differently, he was also sure that it did not come at the expense of other patients.

For instance, I'm sure if Dazzle's mom was a client, she would get special attention or at least a second look over her financial statements. It's human nature.

Quote from: BENZ BOY15 on June 14, 2009, 10:53:34 PM
If you pull someone over and they don't have their driver's license on them...what do you do? My license is valid and believe it or not, I actually don't have any warrants out for me.

You get a ticket, depends on you which one you get.  You either get the waivable "No Ops on person" or you could get the non-waivable criminal citation "Fail to display a valid Ops."  

QuoteStill, I don't want to say to the policeman like the idiots on Cops do, "I actually don't have it with me."

I think it would be better if you gave him an ugly stare for about two minutes, and then loudly declared, "Just who the hell do you think you are to demand anything from me?  Do you have any idea who I am?"  

Then just drive away very fast.  

Quote from: BENZ BOY15 on June 14, 2009, 10:53:34 PM
BingOh and Rohan, I have question.

I just realized that I drove up to SF without my driver's license. I took everything out of my wallet in SD searching for a card and forgot to put everything back in.

If you pull someone over and they don't have their driver's license on them...what do you do? My license is valid and believe it or not, I actually don't have any warrants out for me.

Still, I don't want to say to the policeman like the idiots on Cops do, "I actually don't have it with me."

:lol:

Dunno about Cali law. If it was me, as long as you could provide me with some way to identify you, there probably wouldn't be a problem.

Quote from: hounddog on June 15, 2009, 03:52:24 AM
I think it would be better if you gave him an ugly stare for about two minutes, and then loudly declared, "Just who the hell do you think you are to demand anything from me?  Do you have any idea who I am?" 

Then just drive away very fast. 

Yeah, Benz, this is good advice. Next time you get pulled over, follow it. You are pretty important, and all. There's pretty much no way the cop would chase you.

God, I hope that works.

Quote from: Psilos on June 15, 2009, 08:42:45 PM
Yeah, Benz, this is good advice. Next time you get pulled over, follow it. You are pretty important, and all. There's pretty much no way the cop would chase you.

:lol:

Quote from: hounddog on June 15, 2009, 03:52:24 AM
I think it would be better if you gave him an ugly stare for about two minutes, and then loudly declared, "Just who the hell do you think you are to demand anything from me?  Do you have any idea who I am?" 

Then just drive away very fast. 

I really wish one of my best friends was a cop so if he ever pulled me over, I could do that in front of friends and family and emerge looking like a badass. :lol:

When I supervised our Metro-narcotics team a couple of our guys were with a "perp" and did something similar.  They got chased, stopped in a lot and got out and ran with the badguy.

He trusted them completely after that, and they scored a major bust because of it.  :lol:

Quote from: hounddog on June 15, 2009, 09:14:35 PM
When I supervised our Metro-narcotics team a couple of our guys were with a "perp" and did something similar.  They got chased, stopped in a lot and got out and ran with the badguy.

He trusted them completely after that, and they scored a major bust because of it.  :lol:

LOL, that's just like the movies!

Sometimes the movies really do imitate real life. 

You would be totally shocked what UCOs do to gain a bad guys trust in these types of situations.

Why don?t we just give the stuff away for free with only the stipulation that the user undergo medical intervention because it is cheaper by a quantum and more effective than legal interdiction?  That would immediately eliminate the money from illegal sales and undermine the cartels.

Cops scare the shit of me, actually.

:lol:

Quote from: hounddog on June 15, 2009, 09:14:35 PM
When I supervised our Metro-narcotics team a couple of our guys were with a "perp" and did something similar.  They got chased, stopped in a lot and got out and ran with the badguy.

He trusted them completely after that, and they scored a major bust because of it.  :lol:

That's so awesome. :lol:

Did the cops know they were chasing undercover cops?

My stepmother lives with an American. He has this metal badge, a little bigger than a credit card what he always keeps in his pockets. Apparantly it is some honorary police veteran badge or something that he got from a relative very high placed in a police union.
The guy tells me he hs been able to avoid a number of fines just by showing this badge together with the licence when pulled over - even in Spain! (they probably figured he was a LEO) Once, he was apparantly pulled over very drunk in NJ (many years ago), and the cop wound up escorting him home with his cruiser!

Quote from: mzziaz on June 17, 2009, 03:08:40 AM
Once, he was apparently pulled over very drunk in NJ (many years ago), and the cop wound up escorting him home with his cruiser!

That really disgusts me.  Not your fault, but that friend of yours and that copper should be shot.

Well, I'm not about to shoot my ...uhm..  quasi-father-in-law.
It happened 20, maybe 30 years ago.
Maybe things are better now.

Quote from: mzziaz on June 17, 2009, 02:21:30 PM
Well, I'm not about to shoot my ...uhm..  quasi-father-in-law.
It happened 20, maybe 30 years ago.
Maybe things are better now.

I shot my father in law once.  He eventually got over it, but it took a long time.  Thanksgivings are still a little weird though. 

Quote from: Raza  link=topic=18738.msg1087761#msg1087761 date=1245274714
I shot my father in law once.  He eventually got over it, but it took a long time.  Thanksgivings are still a little weird though.  

Hm, maybe something to consider. Heaven knows I?m gonna feel the urge for something simular the next couple of weeks.
:rolleyes:

Quote from: mzziaz on June 18, 2009, 12:26:16 PM
Hm, maybe something to consider. Heaven knows I?m gonna feel the urge for something simular the next couple of weeks.
:rolleyes:

Well, you guys don't celebrate Thanksgiving in Norway, so you should be fine.

Quote from: Raza  on June 17, 2009, 03:38:34 PM
I shot my father in law once.  He eventually got over it, but it took a long time.  Thanksgivings are still a little weird though. 

Father in Law??  You're married? 

I just returned today from a week in Florida - drove down there and back from NJ. I was provided by a kind officer I know with one of the aforementioned "courtesy badges" which was displayed on my windshield for the entire drive. Unfortunately, its powers were not utilized as there were (count 'em) just TWO police vehicles spotted on the ENTIRE ride down I-95. And they already had their victims pulled over by the time I whizzed by.

Needless to say, my speed rarely fell below the 90MPH mark between North Carolina and Palm Beach Gardens, FL. I didn't mess with Virginia.  :devil:

It would have been a perfect trip if Officer Bob from C&D pulled me over Maryland.  :lol:

I'd pay money to get a ticket from Officer Bob.  I told him I'd give him advance notice if I were driving down there, plus a description and plate number for the car, and I'd coordinate when he'd be on duty with when I was driving through...:lol:  But I haven't driven through Maryland since 2002..

Quote from: dazzleman on June 22, 2009, 05:31:55 AM
I'd pay money to get a ticket from Officer Bob.  I told him I'd give him advance notice if I were driving down there, plus a description and plate number for the car, and I'd coordinate when he'd be on duty with when I was driving through...:lol:  But I haven't driven through Maryland since 2002..

Get a picture taken with him if you do!  :lol:

Quote from: NomisR on June 19, 2009, 12:47:20 PM
Father in Law??  You're married? 

Yeah, to a botanist.