Quote from: Rich on February 07, 2024, 08:55:07 AMWhat. The volt had batteries, a motor, and an engine. The Cruze had an engine.

And a transmission and a fuel system. Lut'z point was that outside of the batteries, the car cost the same as a Cruze to make, so with the batteries costing about $16k in 2010, and the rest of the car costing about $15k, the car itself was profitable per unit at the selling price they had then. By the time the 2nd gen came out, the battery only accounted for $4800 of the cost of the car. since the Cruze was profitable at a selling price of $17k, you know that the cost of the car outside the battery couldn't cost more than the Cruze to make (especially since they were effectively the same platform). So the calculation is that based on the hard costs of the car, it was making a profit at it's then selling price of $30k.

The problem is most of the article on the profitability of the Volt were done in late 2011, when Chevy had only sold 6-10k examples and the pundits were amortizing the entire cost of the factory, R&D, tooling, etc. over that short run of cars to come up with a per-car loss of like $40k, which is absurd. Amortization doesn't work that way. The big costs like R&D and the factory have to be amortized out over the entire run of cars made at that factory and use that research.

https://robertscribbler.wordpress.com/2012/10/02/bob-lutz-chevy-volt-on-verge-of-profitability/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/boblutz/2012/09/10/the-real-story-on-gms-volt-costs/?sh=77c95551287d

Hmmm... Between my employee pricing and lease incentives - I can get a $65k Grand Cherokee for $50k

...cheaper than a comparable V6 version...

I drove my mom's Niro PHEV and thumbed through the trip computer.

13,000 miles over 1 year, average MPG: 260(!!!) So that's 50 gallons of gas burned so far.
Something like a ~40mpg Civic would have burned 325 gallons over the same distance.
Savings in the first year @ $5 a gallon: $1375. Breakeven might take another year or two.

I'm working out the economics on our Jeep - but with $3.30 gas and only 2.0 miles per KW... It's basically a wash

What is significant is basically 50% better fuel mileage when just in straight up hybrid mode than our old Jeep.

Quote from: Laconian on August 26, 2024, 02:04:10 PMI drove my mom's Niro PHEV and thumbed through the trip computer.

13,000 miles over 1 year, average MPG: 260(!!!) So that's 50 gallons of gas burned so far.
Something like a ~40mpg Civic would have burned 325 gallons over the same distance.
Savings in the first year @ $5 a gallon: $1375. Breakeven might take another year or two.

...$5/gallon?

EV adoption rates are robust where gas is expensive. 

Quote from: Laconian on August 26, 2024, 02:04:10 PMI drove my mom's Niro PHEV and thumbed through the trip computer.

13,000 miles over 1 year, average MPG: 260(!!!) So that's 50 gallons of gas burned so far.
Something like a ~40mpg Civic would have burned 325 gallons over the same distance.
Savings in the first year @ $5 a gallon: $1375. Breakeven might take another year or two.

Sounds like she's more diligent in charging than most!

Quote from: AutobahnSHO on August 27, 2024, 02:34:05 PMSounds like she's more diligent in charging than most!

She's 73 years old and doesn't like technological change. But she adapted to this just fine.

My wife is actually really good now with plugging in as well... I think it comes down to I pay the electric bill so it's basically free gas for her in her mind...

I understand the appeal of PHEVs and they're great if you are conscientious about charging them. But if government policy is to reduce CO2 emissions, they don't measure up because people aren't bothering to plug them in.

This was my experience with a rental KIA Sorrento PHEV in NZ - Europcar obviously had acquired a boatload of them, probably got an NZ tax break, and put them in the fleet. Mine had around 30,000 km on the clock and it had never been plugged in anywhere. The cables, in a zip case in the trunk, were still box-fresh in clear wrappers. Small engine in a heavy SUV got mediocre mileage.

Leading two or three paragraph are written by a 13-year-old but there are some numbers further in:
https://electrek.co/2024/03/25/yet-another-study-shows-plug-in-hybrids-arent-as-clean-as-we-thought/

Rental is a different use case than ownership though.

Renters over a day or two aren't going to care about the electric range.  Level 1 charging generally takes an eternity and even level 2 is several hours... So why bother.

It's not much difference than the disaster that BEVs are for the rental fleet.

Quote from: Morris Minor on August 28, 2024, 08:14:58 AMI understand the appeal of PHEVs and they're great if you are conscientious about charging them. But if government policy is to reduce CO2 emissions, they don't measure up because people aren't bothering to plug them in.

This was my experience with a rental KIA Sorrento PHEV in NZ - Europcar obviously had acquired a boatload of them, probably got an NZ tax break, and put them in the fleet. Mine had around 30,000 km on the clock and it had never been plugged in anywhere. The cables, in a zip case in the trunk, were still box-fresh in clear wrappers. Small engine in a heavy SUV got mediocre mileage.

Leading two or three paragraph are written by a 13-year-old but there are some numbers further in:
https://electrek.co/2024/03/25/yet-another-study-shows-plug-in-hybrids-arent-as-clean-as-we-thought/

Reading "Electrek's Take" always feels like receiving a lobotomy.

Is it a PHEV problem or a tax incentive problem? In my mom's case, her "utility factor" is enormous - she runs on battery 84% of the time. It's really not rocket science that the P part of PHEV needs to be done in order to receive a fuel economy benefit.

Perhaps the tax credits should be dispensed to individuals whose needs fit specific criteria - have a garage with a plug, work within X miles of home, etc. Don't give the credits to rental agencies for the reasons you mention.

I SERIOUSLY eyeballed a red 2017 Volt sitting on the Fort "lemon lot" today- marked down $500 to $9400...

117k miles, looks like it's in great condition. But I want a Miata to replace Miata when that day approaches.