The Official Mustang Thread

[MX793]

Yikes. That explains a good portion of it right there. In the first few seconds of the vid: ~2,700 - 3,000 rpm drop on the 1st-2nd shift, which is way too much, esp. without VVL. Should be 2,000 rpm at most, and most any performance car with a 7sp or 8sp, it's more like ~1,500 rpm:

2019 911 (7 sp DCT):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R90--ThtkxU

2019 RS5 (8 sp AT):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OQPxkzOI7U

2018 Z06 (8sp AT):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Xm3oKIIb94

"I can't actually see the tach where the RPM drops to, so I'll just make up an awful sounding number to justify my criticism of a car I don't like".

It's not 2700-3000, it's more like 2000, as seen here (slow the video down to make it easier to see).

https://youtu.be/JIk7dtbKnTE?t=414

[GoCougs]

"I can't actually see the tach where the RPM drops to, so I'll just make up an awful sounding number to justify my criticism of a car I don't like".

It's not 2700-3000, it's more like 2000, as seen here (slow the video down to make it easier to see).

https://youtu.be/JIk7dtbKnTE?t=414

Oh, this is ever quite interesting. Ford has given us some very interesting topics of discussion. And I car I don't like? I wouldn't take this personally. Ford has given us a bit of a conundrum of a car, so it begs discussion.

Well, firstly, videos don't lie. RPM drop off between 1st and 2nd per the video I posted is WAY more than 2,000 RPM; no obfuscating that I'm afraid. But curiously, it is indeed ALSO only ~2,000 RPM, maybe a bit less, in yours. Hmmm. Oh, Ford, what have thee done?

Well, stats and calcs can't lie either. Per the GT500 stats (gear ratios at the bottom of p. 84) and any given gear ratio calculator, 52 mph = 7500 rpm in 1st and 4,825 rpm in 2nd, making RPM drop at the 1st-to-2nd shift an objective, unarguable, and ginormous 2,650 rpm.

So what gives? How can both be true? Well, well, well, Ford. Turns out, per Ford in "drag mode" the DCT slips ("slows" for "over torque") the shifts. So, the video I posted the GT500 was not in drag mode whereas in the video you posted (which I posted previously) was.

The rabbit hole continues. The uncharacteristically large RPM drop off between shifts uncovered another tidbit. The gear ratios are super whack. The GT500 clears the 1/4 mile not even half way through third gear, and given the 180 mph governor, gears 5, 6 and 7 are be definition useless for performance.

Drive tire size: 315/30R20
Red line: 7,500 rpm
Rear gear: 3.73:1
1st: 3.14 - 52 mph
2nd: 2.05 - 80 mph
3rd: 1.43 - 115 mph
4th: 1.10 - 149 mph
5th: 0.86 - 191 mph
6th: 0.68 - 238 mph
7th: 0.56 - 293 mph

So, Ford plays games with the DCT to make up for gear ratios that are much too long and widely spaced. The question becomes, Why would Ford do this? The only logical answer is the DCT can't handle steeper ratios (i.e., higher torque) - 625 lb-ft, 4,200 lbs and 7,500 RPM is a beating. No other hi-po car dishes out that sort of punishment to a DCT this side of a Bugatti Veyron.

[CaminoRacer]

Those 5th and 6th are ratios are totally normal. T-56 Magnum transmissions which are the gold standard for pro-touring cars have .80 5th and .63 6th

Looking at the spacing:

1st and 2nd:      T-56 49%    GT500 53%
2nd and 3rd:      T-56 36%    GT500 43%
3rd and 4th:       T-56 30%    GT500 30%
4th and 5th:       T-56 25%    GT500 27%
5th and 6th:       T-56 27%    GT500 26%

The GT500 is wider, but not drastically. I'd rather have the closer ratios with 3.9 or 4.10 rear end compared to the 3.73, but Ford's compromise might be better for all-purpose driving.

FYI here are the T-56 Magnum ratios. Notice that they're longer than the GT500s...
2.66
1.78
1.3
1
0.8
0.63

[12,000 RPM]

With 760HP this thing could have like 4 gears and still rip. IIRC most drag transmissions only have 2 gears.  A shorter 1st gear would be particularly pointless. If this were AWD I could see the point but it's a front heavy RWD car. If anything the GT350 is the one that needs shorter + closer gearing.

[CaminoRacer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfGv8T-Xuwg&feature=emb_title

[r0tor]

Wonder what the vegas line is for that kid to wreck that thing within a week

[Eye of the Tiger]

Wonder what the vegas line is for that kid to wreck that thing within a week

0.5:1

[FoMoJo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfGv8T-Xuwg&feature=emb_title

So a rookie managed a 10.6.  Under ideal conditions, maybe there's a 9.x out there.

[FoMoJo]

Dyno numbers...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUmWUedM92o&t=473s

Might just be a bit underrated.

[MX793]

Dyno numbers...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUmWUedM92o&t=473s

Might just be a bit underrated.

Chassis dynos are terrible for trying to get accurate crank horsepower.

[MX793]

Glad I'm not the only one to have noticed this (though I have seen a few 4th gens in good shape).

https://jalopnik.com/every-single-fourth-generation-mustang-looks-like-it-lo-1839912006

[Soup DeVille]

Glad I'm not the only one to have noticed this (though I have seen a few 4th gens in good shape).

https://jalopnik.com/every-single-fourth-generation-mustang-looks-like-it-lo-1839912006

I mean, he's not wrong.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

Glad I'm not the only one to have noticed this (though I have seen a few 4th gens in good shape).

https://jalopnik.com/every-single-fourth-generation-mustang-looks-like-it-lo-1839912006

[MX793]

I mean, he's not wrong.

He left out all of the 4th gens that don't necessarily have any dents or scratches, but are sporting mis-matched color bodywork (usually bumpers and fenders) where a damaged panel was replaced by a donor panel from the local pick-and-pull.

[GoCougs]

Times are starting to roll in: https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a30173251/ford-mustang-shelby-gt500-acceleration-testing/

0-60 in 3.6 sec
1/4 mile in 11.4 @ 132 mph
Curb weight of 4,220 lbs (from Motor Trend)

Or, about the same times C&D got for the Camaro ZL1. The GT500 with a slightly better power/weight ratio and DCT should do a bit better (more like the 11.2-11.3 times as shown during the Vegas event). C&D notes traction issues with their track surface.

Lots of power, but lots of weight, and chassis that is struggling.

[giant_mtb]

He left out all of the 4th gens that don't necessarily have any dents or scratches, but are sporting mis-matched color bodywork (usually bumpers and fenders) where a damaged panel was replaced by a donor panel from the local pick-and-pull.

Seems like early 5th gens are starting to get to this point as well. Once they are cheap enough on the used market and hit like their 3rd owner (teenager, trailer trash, female), they get immediately trashed.

[FoMoJo]

Times are starting to roll in: https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a30173251/ford-mustang-shelby-gt500-acceleration-testing/

0-60 in 3.6 sec
1/4 mile in 11.4 @ 132 mph
Curb weight of 4,220 lbs (from Motor Trend)

Or, about the same times C&D got for the Camaro ZL1. The GT500 with a slightly better power/weight ratio and DCT should do a bit better (more like the 11.2-11.3 times as shown during the Vegas event). C&D notes traction issues with their track surface.

Lots of power, but lots of weight, and chassis that is struggling.

Just got to get the power to the ground..."The GT500 does flex its muscle in its post-quarter-mile performance, hitting 150 mph in 15.1 seconds. That's a massive 3.2 seconds quicker than the ZL1 and 2.8 quicker than the Challenger."

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

Just got to get the power to the ground..."The GT500 does flex its muscle in its post-quarter-mile performance, hitting 150 mph in 15.1 seconds. That's a massive 3.2 seconds quicker than the ZL1 and 2.8 quicker than the Challenger."

BLAH...... ZR1 does it in 13.7. 

[FoMoJo]

BLAH...... ZR1 does it in 13.7. 

So now we're comparing it to the 'Vettes supercar.

[GoCougs]

Just got to get the power to the ground..."The GT500 does flex its muscle in its post-quarter-mile performance, hitting 150 mph in 15.1 seconds. That's a massive 3.2 seconds quicker than the ZL1 and 2.8 quicker than the Challenger."

Oh, it will be a quicker once under way, but the DCT and supercharger were placed at/near front of the vehicle, so there will always be an inherent challenge in traction and balance, esp. compared to a purpose-build ultra hi-hp RWD 50/50 platform like say a ZR1, Viper or Ferrari 812.

[GoCougs]

So now we're comparing it to the 'Vettes supercar.

Actually, I think the point was there is no comparison .

[565]

Times are starting to roll in: https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a30173251/ford-mustang-shelby-gt500-acceleration-testing/

0-60 in 3.6 sec
1/4 mile in 11.4 @ 132 mph
Curb weight of 4,220 lbs (from Motor Trend)

Or, about the same times C&D got for the Camaro ZL1. The GT500 with a slightly better power/weight ratio and DCT should do a bit better (more like the 11.2-11.3 times as shown during the Vegas event). C&D notes traction issues with their track surface.

Lots of power, but lots of weight, and chassis that is struggling.

This is EXACTLY what I was saying all those posts ago on this thread, if you advertise 1/4 mile times based on a perfect day with a perfectly prepped surface, you are gonna get lower times. C&D that got 11.4 and that kid that ran 10.6 got identical 132mph trap speeds, so the power is consistent, it's just that a prepped track surface is going to lower your times. 

The GT500 isn't a 10.7 car just like the the ZR1 isn't a 10.3 second car and the C5 z06 isn't a 11.8 second car.


On an actual road the C8 base will demolish the GT500 up to 60 MPH and stay ahead till the 1/4 mile, when most races are about over.

[FoMoJo]

Actually, I think the point was there is no comparison .

Oh, it will be a quicker once under way, but the DCT and supercharger were placed at/near front of the vehicle, so there will always be an inherent challenge in traction and balance, esp. compared to a purpose-build ultra hi-hp RWD 50/50 platform like say a ZR1, Viper or Ferrari 812.

There you go, comparing them .  For heaven's sake, it's a muscle car.  That it runs close to the super cars is pretty impressive.

[GoCougs]

This is EXACTLY what I was saying all those posts ago on this thread, if you advertise 1/4 mile times based on a perfect day with a perfectly prepped surface, you are gonna get lower times. C&D that got 11.4 and that kid that ran 10.6 got identical 132mph trap speeds, so the power is consistent, it's just that a prepped track surface is going to lower your times. 

The GT500 isn't a 10.7 car just like the the ZR1 isn't a 10.3 second car and the C5 z06 isn't a 11.8 second car.


On an actual road the C8 base will demolish the GT500 up to 60 MPH and stay ahead till the 1/4 mile, when most races are about over.

Ford mos def done goofed on quoting "official" 1/4 mile times. The "prepped surface" caveat was an attempt to cover up inherent issues with chassis balance and design. Dodge was guilty of this as well. All in all, it's backfired a bit. But they're good cars and people will buy them. They'll just never quite live up to the hype though.

Also, there's something off about that 19-year-old's GT500. He was the first in the whole US to get a GT500? Something just seems off about the whole thing, even his mannerisms. Seems sorta fake.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

So now we're comparing it to the 'Vettes supercar.

I compare the Vette's Super Car to Fords Super Car also! 

[FoMoJo]

I compare the Vette's Super Car to Fords Super Car also! 

Fair enough.

[GoCougs]

More times, this time from M/T in a neato "comparison" on both strip and track between the C8 and GT500. In short, the C8 is a sports car and the GT500 is a heavy and fast muscle/GT car, with the C8 and base GT500 about evenly matched on the track in terms of times, with the the C8 the handler and the GT500. The GT500 w/CF package is quicker on the track; the C8 is quicker on the strip than either: https://www.motortrend.com/news/chevy-corvette-c8-vs-ford-mustang-shelby-gt500-track-comparison/

Standard GT500/GT500 w/CF package (and stickier tires)
0-60 in 3.7/3.6 sec
1/4 mile in 11.5 @ 130/11.3 @ 132
Curb weight of 4,149/4,054 lbs

[Xer0]

Kinda disappointing that the C8 wasn't even able to beat the base GT500 around VIR.  Meanwhile, the carbon fiber track pack lopping off 3 seconds from the GT500's time is pretty impressive.  Looks like it dropped about 100 lbs too from all the CF.

[CaminoRacer]

Kinda disappointing that the C8 wasn't even able to beat the base GT500 around VIR.  Meanwhile, the carbon fiber track pack lopping off 3 seconds from the GT500's time is pretty impressive.  Looks like it dropped about 100 lbs too from all the CF.

Doesn't VIR favor big horsepower over handling? Makes sense that the 760 hp Mustang would keep up with the 495 hp C8 on that track.

[Xer0]

Doesn't VIR favor big horsepower over handling? Makes sense that the 760 hp Mustang would keep up with the 495 hp C8 on that track.

Yeah, but the C8 isn't exactly underpowered.  Plus it has a weight, traction, and acceleration advantage over the 'Stang so it can brake later and go to WOT sooner which would theoretically offset it, but it looks like Ford really dialed the GT500 in.  Pretty impressive that they seem to have made an actually decent cross between a dragster and track car.  Shame its so heavy.