It's no secret that working on cars and modifying cars isn't my area of expertise. But, there's a place 30 minutes from my office that will do an ECU reflash (APR program) and get me to 254bhp and 297lb-ft. Which, really, is too much power for FWD, but it's the Stage 1 and there's nothing that gives you less power (230 would be ideal for this car, I think).
Here's the link:
http://www.ngpracing.com/store/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=4411
So, realistically, what kind of long term life would I be looking at if I got this? If I decide to keep the car beyond a year or so, obviously, I'll take a hit in resale, as all modified cars do, but reliability is my main concern. Am I going to chip it and then a week later the engine will blow up? I have about 75K on the car right now.
Reflashes can be undone and the car can be returned to its original state pretty easily. That said, I wouldn't do it if the car is still on lease. I'm sure it would violate your lease agreement. If you were to take the car into the dealer for service and they happened to plug into the ECU (perhaps to download some update as part of a TSB or whatever), they'd find that it had been tampered with.
Quote from: MX793 on February 26, 2012, 10:44:58 AM
Reflashes can be undone and the car can be returned to its original state pretty easily. That said, I wouldn't do it if the car is still on lease. I'm sure it would violate your lease agreement. If you were to take the car into the dealer for service and they happened to plug into the ECU (perhaps to download some update as part of a TSB or whatever), they'd find that it had been tampered with.
The link in Raza's post says it's undetectable by the VAGCOM thingy. I don't know if it's worth the risk, though, so I'd probably do it after the lease is up as well.
As I read that, it's not only a flash but a hardware mod to the ECU. Returning it to stock may mean a new ECU (which would be WAY more than the $599 upgrade) if you truly want to erase the evidence/history of the modification.
I look at these things this way, if this mod is all that (more power, more smoothness, more throttle response) why didn't VW do this from the factory? Call me a cynic, but the techs at a boutique mod shop ain't going to outwit the army of power train engineers of VW.
So, IMO, by definition, something will suffer. Could be only gas mileage and a bit of long term life. I wouldn't do it on a primarily/only car simply because turbo engines are much more sensitive to engine management. Also, of course, if there's a problem good luck having the shop or the chip manufacturer backup their work.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 26, 2012, 11:45:34 AM
As I read that, it's not only a flash but a hardware mod to the ECU. Returning it to stock may mean a new ECU (which would be WAY more than the $599 upgrade) if you truly want to erase the evidence/history of the modification.
I look at these things this way, if this mod is all that (more power, more smoothness, more throttle response) why didn't VW do this from the factory? Call me a cynic, but the techs at a boutique mod shop ain't going to outwit the army of power train engineers of VW.
So, IMO, by definition, something will suffer. Could be only gas mileage and a bit of long term life. I wouldn't do it on a primarily/only car simply because turbo engines are much more sensitive to engine management. Also, of course, if there's a problem good luck having the shop or the chip manufacturer backup their work.
:facepalm:
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff15/rohowssgt/regularfail.jpg)
Quote from: MX793 on February 26, 2012, 10:44:58 AM
Reflashes can be undone and the car can be returned to its original state pretty easily. That said, I wouldn't do it if the car is still on lease. I'm sure it would violate your lease agreement. If you were to take the car into the dealer for service and they happened to plug into the ECU (perhaps to download some update as part of a TSB or whatever), they'd find that it had been tampered with.
Well, the warranty is long gone. What could they do?
Quote from: Raza on February 26, 2012, 06:09:19 PM
Well, the warranty is long gone. What could they do?
If the car is still on lease, you'd have to look at your lease agreement and see what is allowed and what the penalties are. When you lease a vehicle, you do not legally own it. The leasing company owns the car. If you modify the car and that violates the lease agreement and Lessor finds out, they may well be able to terminate the lease immediately. What does lease termination mean? I don't know, you'd have to look at your agreement. It may mean repossession of the vehicle. It may mean that they force you to buy out the lease immediately.
Quote from: rohan on February 26, 2012, 04:03:57 PM
:facepalm:
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff15/rohowssgt/regularfail.jpg)
Despite the fact that I'd probably chip my car if it weren't for its warranty, he brings up valid points.
Better question: why would you do this to a car that isn't yours?
Sure- if you're a post menopausal woman who collects cats and hairballs and garden knomes. :huh:
Wow, thanks a lot. I'm now stupider than I was before I read that post.
Quote from: CALL_911 on February 26, 2012, 06:45:49 PM
Wow, thanks a lot. I'm now stupider than I was before I read that post.
Wow- I had no idea that was possible.
Quote from: rohan on February 26, 2012, 06:47:10 PM
Wow- I had no idea that was possible.
Neither did I. You learn something new everyday.
The point of the other post- mr. dumber than before which is a fairly spectacular trick considering...- is that he's on a car forum trying to talk down a guy who wants more power on a car that he only wants to enjoy even more then he already does enjoy.
That = fail
BlowCougs might as well go find himself a scrapbooking forum if he feels driving an Accord without any mods is enjoyable and wants others to experience daily the same thing. ;)
Oh, gods am I ever restraining myself on that nice pile of Ironical Internetryism just sitting there all nice and moist...
Quote from: GoCougs on February 26, 2012, 06:58:59 PM
Oh, gods am I ever restraining myself on that nice pile of Ironical Internetryism just sitting there all nice and moist...
You are the most ridiculous car enthusiast forum member of all time.
/thread
I flash my car with my own programming and then when its dealer time I just flash it back to stock...
No reason to worry, just do it and enjoy
Quote from: rohan on February 26, 2012, 06:58:30 PM
The point of the other post- mr. dumber than before which is a fairly spectacular trick considering...- is that he's on a car forum trying to talk down a guy who wants more power on a car that he only wants to enjoy even more then he already does enjoy.
That = fail
BlowCougs might as well go find himself a scrapbooking forum if he feels driving an Accord without any mods is enjoyable and wants others to experience daily the same thing. ;)
(http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2009/5/16/128869540766318413.jpg)
Quote from: rohan on February 26, 2012, 06:58:30 PM
The point of the other post- mr. dumber than before which is a fairly spectacular trick considering...- is that he's on a car forum trying to talk down a guy who wants more power on a car that he only wants to enjoy even more then he already does enjoy.
That = fail
BlowCougs might as well go find himself a scrapbooking forum if he feels driving an Accord without any mods is enjoyable and wants others to experience daily the same thing. ;)
There is more to modifying a car than just fun and enjoyment; otherwise, Raza wouldn't have made this thread.
Cougs brings up some valid points. I don't know anything about the reliability (and he just stated, neither does he), but I would also think that there might be some reliability concerns. He even just said nothing could go wrong other than some increase in fuel consumption. And as MX793 said, the company leasing the car probably has rules against it.
Quote from: CALL_911 on February 26, 2012, 07:24:14 PM
(http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2009/5/16/128869540766318413.jpg)
:lol:
Raza- got some good, useful info here? :lol:
Sure a reflash sound good. But do so only if the lease is up and the car is your. This isn't like putting changing the exhaust system out or something bad like that.
Is the chip and intel or amd.
Quote from: CALL_911 on February 26, 2012, 06:42:07 PM
Better question: why would you do this to a car that isn't yours?
I'm buying it at the end of the lease. I'm 35,000 miles over my lease allotment, no way I'm paying them $5,000+ to take it back.
Quote from: Raza link=topic=26841.msg1675789#msg1675789 date=1330313668
I'm buying it at the end of the lease. I'm 35,000 miles over my lease allotment, no way I'm paying them $5,000+ to take it back.
Oh, okay.
Yeah, I'd chip it. I want to chip mine very badly. Sucks to be broke. Apparently (as per some fishy codes my car threw up recently) my ECU has been tampered with and is currently in "stock" mode. If this is actually true, I'd love to find out how to get it out of "stock" mode.
If you're going to keep it and want it chipped then do it.
If you're not keeping it then don't.
For the record I kind of agree with some of the things Cougs said.
Quote from: rohan on February 26, 2012, 04:03:57 PM
:facepalm:
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff15/rohowssgt/regularfail.jpg)
I don't think he's wrong at all.
Chip it, but do it for regular unleaded. Also, big exhausts.
Quote from: 2o6 on February 26, 2012, 09:45:42 PM
I don't think he's wrong at all.
Coming from you that means- well it means nothing at all. :huh:
Sorry. :evildude:
Raza, don't listen to these fools. Chip the damned car. Yes, if they find out it MAY violate the lease. How are they going to know? Do guys come into your garage at night and scan your ECM? It won't void the warranty unless the know about it AND can make a case that your modifications caused the failure.
But, you already know this.
So just do it already.
I'd probably want to hear from people with Jettas who had their chip modded at that particular place. Cougs was (amazingly) correct that some guys in a shop have nothing on VW's engineers, and so there is bound to be a trade-off. My guess, as with almost anything that gets more power out of the engine, is that there will be an impact on long-term durability and gas mileage.
I'd think the trade off would be MPG. I doubt the durability would be affected all that much.
the worst that can happen is if you continually beat the living hell out of the thing, the soft factory engine mounts may develop problems because of the extra torque. Stage 1 is pretty damn safe.
Cougs has no idea what the hell he is talking about.
Quote from: rohan on February 26, 2012, 06:58:30 PM
The point of the other post- mr. dumber than before which is a fairly spectacular trick considering...- is that he's on a car forum trying to talk down a guy who wants more power on a car that he only wants to enjoy even more then he already does enjoy.
That = fail
BlowCougs might as well go find himself a scrapbooking forum if he feels driving an Accord without any mods is enjoyable and wants others to experience daily the same thing. ;)
I agree that Cougs is wrong, but there is no need to act like an idiot to say so.
What Cougs fails to realize is chip companies don't stay in business long by putting out shitty products. Someone's engine blows up or if even the drivability is not all that, thanks to this nifty thing called the internet word spreads quickly and business suffers.
The other thing Cougs fails to realize is that yes, while nobody can compete with OEMs in manpower and expertise, OEMs also have to design to a wide range of parameters that results in compromise. I mean the emissions, noise and gas mileage regulations alone put a huge damper on performance. Its those things that make almighty OEMs like Honda program rev hang between shifts to prevent unburnt hydrocarbons from making it to the cat... which is nothing but a detriment to performance. The stock tunes suck... they're often rich in weird places, etc. Its not unheard of for gas mileage to go up with a chipping, as AFRs are tuned to a somewhat set (and leaner) range by the aftermarket.
I think its a bit goofy to downplay the level of expertise in the aftermarket as well. Again, bad aftermarket outfits don't last long, and many of the good ones have ex-OEM folks and folks straight out of racing. I would value a successful race team's expertise on making power & preserving engine life not far behind that of an OEM. If anything the OEM's only advantage is in emission control, which is really of no value outside of inspections (to me at least).
THAT SAID, I agree that chipping a lease is a bad idea if you don't know how to work your way around a car. You can plan around scheduled services, but if you have to bring it in for a problem... :huh: I still think you should consider a cheap sports car and some track days over investing into the Jetta.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on February 27, 2012, 08:23:45 AM
I agree that Cougs is wrong, but there is no need to act like an idiot to say so.
Pot - meet kettle. Kettle- meet pot.
:rolleyes: :facepalm:
Quote from: Rupert on February 27, 2012, 01:32:40 AM
I'd probably want to hear from people with Jettas who had their chip modded at that particular place. Cougs was (amazingly) correct that some guys in a shop have nothing on VW's engineers, and so there is bound to be a trade-off. My guess, as with almost anything that gets more power out of the engine, is that there will be an impact on long-term durability and gas mileage.
APR is a very successful and legitimate Audi/Porsche/VW tuning company; they have the largest team in GrandAm racing. I'll be getting a chip from them if I ever come up with the extra money to do so.
As far as the tuning shops that install their products, I can't really say, but I suspect that they're mostly pretty legitimate and well-selected. Or if one really wants to make sure it's done right, take a trip to the APR headquarters and have their guys do it. But I mean, they build/engineer race cars and shit with their products all the time, so they probably are just a bunch of hacks that don't know what they're doing. ;)
http://www.goapr.com/
Quote from: rohan on February 26, 2012, 06:59:58 PM
You are the most ridiculous car enthusiast forum member of all time.
... says the person who refuses to drive a 5-series in the snow
Quote from: 850CSi on February 27, 2012, 10:47:48 AM
... says the person who refuses to drive a 5-series in the snow
He said he doesn't like to let his wife drive it when there's a lot of snow to avoid her getting stuck or in an accident. Sometimes my parents will switch cars when we get a lot of snow so my mom can drive the Explorer and my dad will wrestle with the Grand Marquis.
What's not to understand?
Quote from: giant_mtb on February 27, 2012, 10:51:24 AM
He said he doesn't like to let his wife drive it when there's a lot of snow to avoid her getting stuck or in an accident. Sometimes my parents will switch cars when we get a lot of snow so my mom can drive the Explorer and my dad will wrestle with the Grand Marquis.
What's not to understand?
... says the person who refuses to drive an A4 Quattro in teh snow. :evildude: :lol:
Quote from: 850CSi on February 27, 2012, 10:47:48 AM
... says the person who refuses to drive a 5-series in the snow
And, in your vast six years of driving your lightly powered car in the winter, as opposed to his over 20 in rwd police and personal cars, how many times did you drive with your young children in the car during bad road conditions?
His reasons for not wanting to drive a higher horsepower car in the snow and ice are perfectly valid to anyone who has a family; RWDs are not as safe in the snow, higher horsepower RWDs are even less safe. Even if his sole reason is to protect the car from rust, and keep it pretty, it is really none of your business.
The car belongs to him and his wife, so who the bloody hell are you to tell him how to keep his kids safe when you, and all of the other non-family having guys here, have exactly zero experience from which to speak?
Have a couple kids and drive them around in the winter, then come back here and talk shit. Otherwise, shut the hell up about it and get off his back. Rohan is perfectly in his rights to decide whether or not a car is safe enough or not in certain conditions for his wife and kids.
God damn.
Quote from: Rupert on February 27, 2012, 01:32:40 AM
I'd probably want to hear from people with Jettas who had their chip modded at that particular place. Cougs was (amazingly) correct that some guys in a shop have nothing on VW's engineers, and so there is bound to be a trade-off. My guess, as with almost anything that gets more power out of the engine, is that there will be an impact on long-term durability and gas mileage.
Of course there is a trade off. You aren't going to get something for nothing (or in the is case the price of a chip).
The OEM settings are designed for general drivability, reliability, performance, emissions for 50,000 miles or more, economy and durability. And the car has to deliver that consistantly for thousands and thousands of miles You can't enhance one of those without giving something up somewhere else. co
It's a lot like the old racer's saw, "Performance, Reliability, Low Cost. Pick any two.
Quote from: giant_mtb on February 27, 2012, 10:51:24 AM
He said he doesn't like to let his wife drive it when there's a lot of snow to avoid her getting stuck or in an accident. Sometimes my parents will switch cars when we get a lot of snow so my mom can drive the Explorer and my dad will wrestle with the Grand Marquis.
What's not to understand?
Some of the most fun I had behind the wheel was in a rear wheel drive Dodge Charger with wide oval tires in the snow in the 60's. All wheel drive, snow rated tires, traction and stability control all have taken a lot of fun out of winter driving.
Took a tour of the APR website. I'd be wary as I see snake oil techniques; using a chassis dyno, and in addition to claiming improved efficiency (note, not "mpg") and durability, not a single word of tradeoffs. Really? All these improvements with no tradeoffs save for the purchase price? What did VW's army of engineers miss?
Also, as Raza alluded to in the original post, would ~50 add'l horsepower without addressing the chassis or suspension benefit the driving experience overall? My hunch is no, and exactly why VW has stuck with ~200 hp for the 2.0T for going on seven model years in both the FWD cars (GTI, GLI, Beetle Turbo, etc.).
Quote from: hounddog on February 27, 2012, 11:09:10 AM
And, in your vast six years of driving your lightly powered car in the winter, as opposed to his over 20 in rwd police and personal cars, how many times did you drive with your young children in the car during bad road conditions?
His reasons for not wanting to drive a higher horsepower car in the snow and ice are perfectly valid to anyone who has a family; RWDs are not as safe in the snow, higher horsepower RWDs are even less safe. Even if his sole reason is to protect the car from rust, and keep it pretty, it is really none of your business.
The car belongs to him and his wife, so who the bloody hell are you to tell him how to keep his kids safe when you, and all of the other non-family having guys here, have exactly zero experience from which to speak?
Have a couple kids and drive them around in the winter, then come back here and talk shit. Otherwise, shut the hell up about it and get off his back. Rohan is perfectly in his rights to decide whether or not a car is safe enough or not in certain conditions for his wife and kids.
God damn.
(http://www.esreality.com/files/placeimages/2011/84450-u-mad1.jpg)
(http://i910.photobucket.com/albums/ac303/elfprincessarcher/morganfreemanhemad.jpg)
The 2.0T is no where near the point of asploding with a stage 1 tune.
Why is it not stage 1 from factory? Well it needed to fit under the weak VR6 in some models, one way to increase fuel economy is to lower boost and power, even though it requires premium fuel an OEM is not going to trust the owners and actually tune the engine to the point of needing premium, there is only so much control of tolerances of the maf/fuel injectors/O2 sensors so the factory tune is going to be even more safe.
So yea, the APR shit is not snake oil in the least bit...
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on February 27, 2012, 10:56:31 AM
... says the person who refuses to drive an A4 Quattro in teh snow. :evildude: :lol:
Never refused. I drove it all last winter. And in about a week I'll be driving it again...in the winter. ;)
Quote from: MiataJohn on February 27, 2012, 11:41:00 AM
Some of the most fun I had behind the wheel was in a rear wheel drive Dodge Charger with wide oval tires in the snow in the 60's. All wheel drive, snow rated tires, traction and stability control all have taken a lot of fun out of winter driving.
I have a shitload of fun in the snow with AWD. :huh:
Quote from: giant_mtb on February 27, 2012, 01:44:31 PM
I have a shitload of fun in the snow with AWD. :huh:
Nah, you need that element of danger, of always being on the verge of losing control and spinning off a cliff to truely have fun. You'll know you've had fun if you get home and the driver's seat is wet and it's not from melting snow. :ohyeah:
With all wheel drive you can attain speeds that can cause injury before you lose it. With rear wheel drive you'll lose it at 5-10 MPH, not even fast enough to cause the airbags to deploy. ;)
Quote from: 850CSi on February 27, 2012, 12:45:22 PM
(http://www.esreality.com/files/placeimages/2011/84450-u-mad1.jpg)
I am.
You guys went after him for laughing at Cougs (and he was right for doing so), then, when he answered your questions you went after him for that as well just because, wait for it, you have a fraction of time behind the wheel he does. And, to compound the problem, you have none of his responsibility with being a father. :huh:
WTF is that? Talk about immature.
Quote from: Onslaught on February 26, 2012, 09:14:04 PM
If you're going to keep it and want it chipped then do it.
If you're not keeping it then don't.
For the record I kind of agree with some of the things Cougs said.
I somewhat agree with him as well. But then again, I also know guys who have made their cars markedly and dramatically better through modifying, so it's really a buyer beware thing. Any time you tinker, you run the risk of making it worse. And I don't know, that's why I'm asking.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 27, 2012, 12:18:18 PM
Also, as Raza alluded to in the original post, would ~50 add'l horsepower without addressing the chassis or suspension benefit the driving experience overall? My hunch is no, and exactly why VW has stuck with ~200 hp for the 2.0T for going on seven model years in both the FWD cars (GTI, GLI, Beetle Turbo, etc.).
The Scirocco R has well over 200 hp from the 2.0T in FWD guise.
Quote from: MiataJohn on February 27, 2012, 01:55:20 PM
Nah, you need that element of danger, of always being on the verge of losing control and spinning off a cliff to truely have fun. You'll know you've had fun if you get home and the driver's seat is wet and it's not from melting snow. :ohyeah:
With all wheel drive you can attain speeds that can cause injury before you lose it. With rear wheel drive you'll lose it at 5-10 MPH, not even fast enough to cause the airbags to deploy. ;)
Everybody has different ideas of fun. :huh: :ohyeah:
Quote from: Raza on February 27, 2012, 03:02:57 PM
I somewhat agree with him as well. But then again, I also know guys who have made their cars markedly and dramatically better through modifying, so it's really a buyer beware thing. Any time you tinker, you run the risk of making it worse. And I don't know, that's why I'm asking.
My neighbors gti has the Apr stage 1... its a good thing
Quote from: Raza on February 27, 2012, 03:02:57 PM
I somewhat agree with him as well. But then again, I also know guys who have made their cars markedly and dramatically better through modifying, so it's really a buyer beware thing. Any time you tinker, you run the risk of making it worse. And I don't know, that's why I'm asking.
Yes, you do run that risk.
You never struck me as an incredibly risk-averse kind of guy.
The chances are higher that you'll wreck the car before the evil unauthorized chipset has a chance to blow it up anyways
And with those APR chips, you can get multiple programs and can choose any program (including Stock) at any time. It's some extra money, but perhaps worth it if one is concerned with mileage or longevity when running a modified program all the time.
Quote from: hounddog on February 27, 2012, 02:50:25 PM
I am.
You guys went after him for laughing at Cougs (and he was right for doing so), then, when he answered your questions you went after him for that as well just because, wait for it, you have a fraction of time behind the wheel he does. And, to compound the problem, you have none of his responsibility with being a father. :huh:
WTF is that? Talk about immature.
He lashed out at Cougs about something he doesn't have the faintest idea about. Cougs is right, sorry guys :huh:. If someone is just going to lash out like that, they're just kind of asking to be made fun of.
Cougs isn't really right. Obviously gas mileage might suffer, but a stage 1 chip isn't going to kill his engine in 5,000 miles. As long as the lease isn't an issue, he should have no problem with it.
Cougs is not even remotely close to being right in this thread
Quote from: r0tor on February 27, 2012, 05:49:30 PM
Cougs is not even remotely close to being right in this thread
Cougs isn't that far off: if you modify anything, you're bound to change its life span in some way. Its reasonable to assume that an engine making more power works harder, and wears out quicker.
My response is basically: yeah? so?
VAG themselves have 2.0T engines creating more power then an Apr stage 1 tune... there is zero frikkin downside to this
Quote from: r0tor on February 27, 2012, 06:06:13 PM
VAG themselves have 2.0T engines creating more power then an Apr stage 1 tune... there is zero frikkin downside to this
I don't see why everyone's making such a large fuss, either. :huh:
Quote from: r0tor on February 27, 2012, 06:06:13 PM
VAG themselves have 2.0T engines creating more power then an Apr stage 1 tune... there is zero frikkin downside to this
Just wondering, but is there a difference between Raza's 2.0T vs one from the Scirocco? Different pistons, rings, rods, etc could be the difference...
Quote from: hotrodalex on February 27, 2012, 05:45:23 PM
Cougs isn't really right. Obviously gas mileage might suffer, but a stage 1 chip isn't going to kill his engine in 5,000 miles. As long as the lease isn't an issue, he should have no problem with it.
If you think that's what he said, reread the post. He's spot on. In the long term, I'd assume a chipped 2.0T would be more likely to fuck up the engine than a stock car. His outline of the possible concerns chipping a car was correct.
Quote from: giant_mtb on February 27, 2012, 05:11:44 PM
And with those APR chips, you can get multiple programs and can choose any program (including Stock) at any time. It's some extra money, but perhaps worth it if one is concerned with mileage or longevity when running a modified program all the time.
Quote from: CALL_911 on February 27, 2012, 06:23:48 PM
If you think that's what he said, reread the post. He's spot on. In the long term, I'd assume a chipped 2.0T would be more likely to fuck up the engine than a stock car. His outline of the possible concerns chipping a car was correct.
OK then, start trying to find cases of a stage 1 Apr tune futzing up an engine... that or join the clueless club and shut it
Quote from: r0tor on February 27, 2012, 06:06:13 PM
VAG themselves have 2.0T engines creating more power then an Apr stage 1 tune... there is zero frikkin downside to this
I don't see APR doing it the exact same way, or having the exact same resources for testing- and I don't see that owners who modify their cars for more power are driving the same way the average VW owner does either. I don't think there are enough chipped cars out there to form a statistically viable bell curve for what happens afterwards: and certainly not many where that's the only modification.
There is a potential downside: but nothing that would effect my decision. I'm smart enough to relaize that there's a healthy safety margin built into most engines these days that can be exploited without serious consequences: and that's good enough for my purposes.
Quote from: CALL_911 on February 27, 2012, 06:28:26 PM
When did anyone dispute that? You're not wrong.
So I don't understand why everyone cares so much. Yeah, sure, it is
possible that the chip could reduce reliability/longevity of the car. Is it likely to happen or make a huge impact on either of those? No, most likely not. For cripe's sake, you people talk about a chip like it's the anti-Christ.
Quote from: thecarnut on February 27, 2012, 06:19:17 PM
Just wondering, but is there a difference between Raza's 2.0T vs one from the Scirocco? Different pistons, rings, rods, etc could be the difference...
Here's what I found:
- Lower compression forged pistons
- strengthened connecting rods
- enlarged wrist pins
- stronger piston rings
- upgraded bearings
- reinforced engine block
- upgraded camshafts (longer duration)
- upgraded injectors (+13% flow)
- larger K04 turbo producing 1.2 bar of boost (+3 PSI over K03 equipped GTI)
- larger intercooler (+30%)
- relocated bypass valve
- timing chain rather than timing belt
All that and you missed the fact the scirocco R has an FSI engine and not the TSI in the gti....
Quote from: MX793 on February 27, 2012, 03:21:46 PM
The Scirocco R has well over 200 hp from the 2.0T in FWD guise.
Completely different car than the plebeian Golf, Jetta, etc. It will have the right goods to use the extra power; not only a much beefed up engine (see previous post) but also the suspension, chassis, and drive train parts to make it work well and reliable.
this is about the equivalent of telling a camaro owner his engine is going to be over stressed by installing an exhaust system... yeesh, this forum is getting more unthusiast by the day
Why does "chipping" void a warranty?
Why doesn't VW use such a cheap method to get significantly more performance out of a fairly stale engine?
Sorry guys, there are tradeoff(s) with "chipping" a F/I car by ~50hp. The only thing left to do is to figure out how big they'll be, and whether you'd be able to live with 'em.
Quote from: r0tor on February 27, 2012, 06:56:26 PM
this is about the equivalent of telling a camaro owner his engine is going to be over stressed by installing an exhaust system... yeesh, this forum is getting more unthusiast by the day
He asked what was the worst that could happen for a reason... I don't think anyone explicitly said not to, but there are other considerations to keep in mind when talking about a high mileage daily driver...
Quote from: r0tor on February 27, 2012, 06:56:26 PM
this is about the equivalent of telling a camaro owner his engine is going to be over stressed by installing an exhaust system... yeesh, this forum is getting more unthusiast by the day
Knowledge, facts, and data are not unenthusiast. :huh:
Quote from: GoCougs on February 27, 2012, 06:57:37 PM
Why does "chipping" void a warranty?
Why doesn't VW use such a cheap method to get significantly more performance out of a fairly stale engine?
Sorry guys, there are tradeoff(s) with "chipping" a F/I car by ~50hp. The only thing left to do is to figure out how big they'll be, and whether you'd be able to live with 'em.
Because not every car is meant to come from the factory with the most possible power? If that were the case, we'd all be driving cars that do 0-60 in 4 seconds. :rolleyes:
We're not retarded...of course there will be tradeoffs, but you guys continue to talk about it like it's the worst idea ever. For CarSPIN's sake you guys are getting lame (or perhaps old).
Quote from: r0tor on February 27, 2012, 06:43:55 PM
All that and you missed the fact the scirocco R has an FSI engine and not the TSI in the gti....
That is not knowledge, fact or data. He specifically asked for technical info, not a moniker or trade name.
Do you have any knowledge of the design of a tsi engine, of tuning a boosted engine, have any facts of actual problems caused by the tune, facts as to any of the design Max allowable stresses of any of the engine components, or data of any failures caused by a pretty safe tune like the stage 1?
Also, chipping does not void your warranty. The manufacturer needs to PROVE that a modification caused a failure to deny a warranty claim.
It's okay, Cougs knows more about all of those things than APR.
Quote from: giant_mtb on February 27, 2012, 07:00:33 PM
Because not every car is meant to come from the factory with the most possible power? If that were the case, we'd all be driving cars that do 0-60 in 4 seconds. :rolleyes:
We're not retarded...of course there will be tradeoffs, but you guys continue to talk about it like it's the worst idea ever. For CarSPIN's sake you guys are getting lame (or perhaps old).
Why would an automaker spend hundreds of millions $$$ (or more) to develop an engine to only neuter it? They don't do that. Ever. Designing and building cars is a cutthroat business like any other.
To me it seems that those who don't understand how "chipping" works are the ones building the "worst idea ever" strawman. There WILL be tradeoffs, and for a higher mileage F/I daily driver, I don't think they'd be insignificant.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 27, 2012, 07:01:12 PM
That is not knowledge, fact or data. He specifically asked for technical info, not a moniker or trade name.
The difference between a tsi engine and a modified fsi engine is not just a letter on an engine cover... pretty substantial differences actually.. Go ahead though and keep doing 2 minute google searches to attempt to know what your talking about.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 27, 2012, 07:07:10 PM
Why would an automaker spend hundreds of millions $$$ (or more) to develop an engine to only neuter it? They don't do that. Ever. Designing and building cars is a cutthroat business like any other.
To me it seems that those who don't understand how "chipping" works are the ones building the "worst idea ever" strawman. There WILL be tradeoffs, and for a higher mileage F/I daily driver, I don't think they'd be insignificant.
God forbid. The entire aftermarket should just cease to exist, then? :wtf:
Quote from: GoCougs on February 27, 2012, 07:07:10 PM
Why would an automaker spend hundreds of millions $$$ (or more) to develop an engine to only neuter it? They don't do that. Ever. Designing and building cars is a cutthroat business like any other.
To me it seems that those who don't understand how "chipping" works are the ones building the "worst idea ever" strawman. There WILL be tradeoffs, and for a higher mileage F/I daily driver, I don't think they'd be insignificant.
Oh please tell me what these trade offs are exactly...and I mean exactly
Quote from: r0tor on February 27, 2012, 07:08:05 PM
The difference between a tsi engine and a modified fsi engine is not just a letter on an engine cover... pretty substantial differences actually.. Go ahead though and keep doing 2 minute google searches to attempt to know what your talking about.
Uh, didn't I just list the "substantial differences?"
Quote from: GoCougs on February 27, 2012, 06:41:44 PM
Here's what I found:
- Lower compression forged pistons
- strengthened connecting rods
- enlarged wrist pins
- stronger piston rings
- upgraded bearings
- reinforced engine block
- upgraded camshafts (longer duration)
- upgraded injectors (+13% flow)
- larger K04 turbo producing 1.2 bar of boost (+3 PSI over K03 equipped GTI)
- larger intercooler (+30%)
- relocated bypass valve
- timing chain rather than timing belt
Quote from: r0tor on February 27, 2012, 07:11:46 PM
Oh please tell me what these trade offs are exactly...and I mean exactly
Ha, ha. NO. You turkeys turning this into a troll fest get to stew in your own sick.
And again you missed the entire point about the engine your posting about not even being the same basic design as the tsi variant in the gti... fundemental differences like one having a timing chain
Quote from: GoCougs on February 27, 2012, 07:16:19 PM
Ha, ha. NO. You turkeys turning this into a troll fest get to stew in your own sick.
I've tuned my engine myself and tuned a few others and actually know what the fuck I'm talking about, how about you?
Quote from: GoCougs on February 27, 2012, 06:57:37 PM
Why does "chipping" void a warranty?
It doesn't.
Unless the modification caused the failure.
Quote from: r0tor on February 27, 2012, 07:17:29 PM
And again you missed the entire point about the engine your posting about not even being the same basic design as the tsi variant in the gti... fundemental differences like one having a timing chain
Again, the moniker that adorned the intake cover is irrelevant. He asked for technical info, he received it, and of course there are fundamental differences - the power difference is substantial.
Quote from: r0tor on February 27, 2012, 07:20:16 PM
I've tuned my engine myself and tuned a few others and actually know what the fuck I'm talking about, how about you?
You troll, you prove. I will judge fairly.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on February 27, 2012, 07:25:58 PM
It doesn't.
Unless the modification caused the failure.
You go in with engine problems and they find you're chipped, of course it will be denied. No difference if it were a cam or head swap.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 27, 2012, 07:30:34 PM
Again, the moniker that adorned the intake cover is irrelevant. He asked for technical info, he received it, and of course there are fundamental differences - the power difference is substantial.
Fundamental differences like an entirely different engine design you missed mean.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 27, 2012, 07:30:51 PM
You troll, you prove. I will judge fairly.
Right I'm a troll because I actually have first hand knowledge and experience on the subject vs your completely uninformed opinion.
Quote from: r0tor on February 27, 2012, 07:44:23 PM
Fundamental differences like an entirely different engine design you missed mean.
:confused:
How so?
You guys are getting schools by cougs. This is ugly.
Quote from: r0tor on February 27, 2012, 07:46:17 PM
Right I'm a troll because I actually have first hand knowledge and experience on the subject vs your completely uninformed opinion.
No, I think you're trolling because you got all emo. Can't you have a different opinion without getting unglued?
There may be some side effects of chipping. How about we all agree on that?
Wow, dudes, this is pretty sad.
As far as picking some reality from the troll shit, Soup pretty much nailed it. Yes, there are trade-offs, period. No, they probably aren't a huge deal. IMO, bottom line for Raza is to figure out what the specific trade-offs are. Maybe they're insignificant, maybe they aren't; it's up to him to judge, since it's his car.
Quote from: Rupert on February 27, 2012, 09:21:38 PM
Wow, dudes, this is pretty sad.
As far as picking some reality from the troll shit, Soup pretty much nailed it. Yes, there are trade-offs, period. No, they probably aren't a huge deal. IMO, bottom line for Raza is to figure out what the specific trade-offs are. Maybe they're insignificant, maybe they aren't; it's up to him to judge, since it's his car.
Uh......that's pretty much what Cougs said.
Not quite, but I never said I was refuting Cougs, did I?
Quote from: MrH on February 27, 2012, 05:37:55 PM
He lashed out at Cougs about something he doesn't have the faintest idea about.
WTH are you talking about?
How do you claim to know anything more than a guy who did moderate modding to a 6.0l GTO?
Wow.
hd is saddest/funniest when he exerts his girthy internetry towards defending his pet friend, rohan.
Quote from: Rupert on February 28, 2012, 12:27:36 AM
hd is saddest/funniest when he exerts his girthy internetry towards defending his pet friend, rohan.
Yet, you resort to name calling and stupid assery while providing absolutely nothing of substance in any way.
100% you normal and remarkably old and predictable routine.
Prove in some manner MrHs claims. :huh:
Watch as the troll accuses you of doing exactly what he's been doing the whole time! See his cognitive dissonance! Just make sure to avoid the Spittle Zone!
Tomorrow: The troll sees what he's done, apologizes for being drunk, and does it again! Or! He just retreats for a week in shame!
This wonder of nature only happens every two weeks, and you're lucky enough to get to see it!
Quote from: Rupert on February 28, 2012, 12:36:46 AM
Watch as the troll accuses you of doing exactly what he's been doing the whole time! See his cognitive dissonance! Just make sure to avoid the Spittle Zone!
Tomorrow: The troll sees what he's done, apologizes for being drunk, and does it again! Or! He just retreats for a week in shame!
This wonder of nature only happens every two weeks, and you're lucky enough to get to see it!
Quote from: hounddog on February 28, 2012, 12:32:41 AM
Yet, you resort to name calling and stupid assery while providing absolutely nothing of substance in any way.
100% you normal and remarkably old and predictable routine.
Prove in some manner MrHs claims. :huh:
In answer to the original post question- it could assplode.
I agree maybe not the first week (or year or 3-4) post-chip, but there is a reason the factory OMG LIMITS YOUR HORSIES!!!!
I can see nothing has changed with the unfounded fearmongering since I left the thread last night....
Chips have sharp edges and prickley pins. They have been proven to cause epidermal fissures, which can lead to death. One should avoid contact with chips at all costs.
Wow, this got heated. I didn't expect that. In case you're wondering, I'm reading every post and logging it in my mind, I'm just not responding because, like I said, I am not an expert and this isn't one of those threads where I pre-made up my mind before asking.
Hmm I have a few questions. One when is the lease up? Two, how much would you be willing to invest in mods? I think if you threw on the full gamut (intake, downpipe, exhaust, suspension, brakes), you could have a "new" car for not a lot of money. IMO you either have to do it all or leave it alone. Once you crack that floodgate you will want more so you might as well go whole hog.
A chip is fine for more power, but I think an intake + exhaust + downpipe would really add to the experience. I would say all of that + installation would cost you $1500 or so.
Coilovers are actually pretty cheap for VWs cause so many people buy them. $1000 installed + aligned.
People often neglect brakes (I don't know why). You don't need much. Brembo rotors and pads will transform your shizz. $1000 installed + aligned.
$3500-4000 sounds like a lot on top of buying the car. But you know this car. Might as well keep it + run it into the ground. I imagine the residual prob not being too brutal anyway ($10-13K?). But I would wait till the lease is up, see what else is out there and if you don't find anything you can commit to go forth with the GLI enhancements. Modding cars works best when you do it holistically.
Dont bother listening to any of these chowderheads. rohan + hounddog seem like loud mouthed alcoholic trolls, note how they haven't actually offered you any advice. Cougs is probably too scared to plug an aftermarket accessory into his 12V socket for fear of besmirching the almighty OEM gods. Etc. I might be a little crazy but I have "built" 3 cars in the last 5 years. If you use quality parts it will be fine.
Quote from: Raza on February 28, 2012, 07:03:59 AM
Wow, this got heated. I didn't expect that. In case you're wondering, I'm reading every post and logging it in my mind, I'm just not responding because, like I said, I am not an expert and this isn't one of those threads where I pre-made up my mind before asking.
If you get yours chipped, I'll get mine chipped. :wub:
Quote from: sportyaccordy on February 28, 2012, 07:18:03 AM
Hmm I have a few questions. One when is the lease up? Two, how much would you be willing to invest in mods? I think if you threw on the full gamut (intake, downpipe, exhaust, suspension, brakes), you could have a "new" car for not a lot of money. IMO you either have to do it all or leave it alone. Once you crack that floodgate you will want more so you might as well go whole hog.
A chip is fine for more power, but I think an intake + exhaust + downpipe would really add to the experience. I would say all of that + installation would cost you $1500 or so.
Coilovers are actually pretty cheap for VWs cause so many people buy them. $1000 installed + aligned.
People often neglect brakes (I don't know why). You don't need much. Brembo rotors and pads will transform your shizz. $1000 installed + aligned.
$3500-4000 sounds like a lot on top of buying the car. But you know this car. Might as well keep it + run it into the ground. I imagine the residual prob not being too brutal anyway ($10-13K?). But I would wait till the lease is up, see what else is out there and if you don't find anything you can commit to go forth with the GLI enhancements. Modding cars works best when you do it holistically.
Dont bother listening to any of these chowderheads. rohan + hounddog seem like loud mouthed alcoholic trolls, note how they haven't actually offered you any advice. Cougs is probably too scared to plug an aftermarket accessory into his 12V socket for fear of besmirching the almighty OEM gods. Etc. I might be a little crazy but I have "built" 3 cars in the last 5 years. If you use quality parts it will be fine.
Lease is up in July.
I'm not planning on investing much in mods; if I do decide to keep it long term, I'll be adding a second car (944 convertible or E36 M3 convertible are in the running) that's much sportier, open top, and RWD. So I don't need to go crazy for a daily driver.
I was planning on the chip and Koni FSDs. Coilovers are probably over-aggressive for the street and considering how much bumpy highway miles I put on. The Konis are like $500, I assume about $500 to install [EDIT: $1000 for the full kit with FSDs and Eibach springs]. With that kind of power and a bit more firmness in the suspension (it's not like the car is a pudding right now, it's essentially running the same suspension that the 2006 GTIs and GLIs ran, if I'm correct), it would make a great daily driver.
And I like the way the car sounds now anyway, so I don't think I'd get a lot by investing in an intake and exhaust. Stage 1 gets me more power than I think is strictly necessary already.
The Konis:
http://www.koni.com/190.html
http://www.koni-na.com/fsdeibach.cfm
Do it
I would say probably $300-400 to install the springs and shocks. If you have any mechanically savvy friends, they could help you put it on, too. It's pretty simple; you just need the right tools. I would do it if I lived closer to you.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on February 28, 2012, 07:18:03 AM
Hmm I have a few questions. One when is the lease up? Two, how much would you be willing to invest in mods? I think if you threw on the full gamut (intake, downpipe, exhaust, suspension, brakes), you could have a "new" car for not a lot of money. IMO you either have to do it all or leave it alone. Once you crack that floodgate you will want more so you might as well go whole hog.
A chip is fine for more power, but I think an intake + exhaust + downpipe would really add to the experience. I would say all of that + installation would cost you $1500 or so.
Coilovers are actually pretty cheap for VWs cause so many people buy them. $1000 installed + aligned.
People often neglect brakes (I don't know why). You don't need much. Brembo rotors and pads will transform your shizz. $1000 installed + aligned.
$3500-4000 sounds like a lot on top of buying the car. But you know this car. Might as well keep it + run it into the ground. I imagine the residual prob not being too brutal anyway ($10-13K?). But I would wait till the lease is up, see what else is out there and if you don't find anything you can commit to go forth with the GLI enhancements. Modding cars works best when you do it holistically.
Dont bother listening to any of these chowderheads. rohan + hounddog seem like loud mouthed alcoholic trolls, note how they haven't actually offered you any advice. Cougs is probably too scared to plug an aftermarket accessory into his 12V socket for fear of besmirching the almighty OEM gods. Etc. I might be a little crazy but I have "built" 3 cars in the last 5 years. If you use quality parts it will be fine.
Spending $4k on a $10k car is a bad idea; just buy a better performing, more reliable, new(er) car.
Wouldn't poke at me too much - your last project car was a POS from stem to stern.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 28, 2012, 12:25:29 PM
Spending $4k on a $10k car is a bad idea; just buy a better performing, more reliable, new(er) car.
And put yourself back in the worst slice of the depreciation curve?
Quote from: GoCougs on February 28, 2012, 12:25:29 PMWouldn't poke at me too much - your last project car was a POS from stem to stern.
Rather enjoy a POS project car than suffer paralysis from automotive cowardice. Whens the last time you turned a wrench on any car?
Cougs, manufactures don't make cars with tons of power because of multiple reasons - emissions, gas mileage, NVH, cost, etc. Obviously some of those things will be sacrificed if Raza gets a chip. But a mild chip will not kill his engine. Modern engines are robust enough to last for hundreds of thousands of miles. I'm sure the VW electronics will fizzle out before a mildly tuned engine will go kaput.
The warranty is a non-issue since he said that is long gone. So like I said before, the only problem would be the lease terms, but even that isn't much of a big deal if it's up in July.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on February 28, 2012, 12:32:56 PM
And put yourself back in the worst slice of the depreciation curve?
Uh, that $4k evaporates the second you spend it, plus that level of mod will hurt resale and leave you with a less reliable car...
Quote
Rather enjoy a POS project car than suffer paralysis from automotive cowardice. Whens the last time you turned a wrench on any car?
More like automotive ignorance from my POV. It's been a while since I turned a wrench and probably never will again - I don't even change my own oil. I'll just buy whatever performance level I want. Make no mistake though, by what you've described, I have more experience wrenching on cars than you, and got more than my fill.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 28, 2012, 12:58:25 PM
Uh, that $4k evaporates the second you spend it, plus that level of mod will hurt resale and leave you with a less reliable car...
It doesn't evaporate, it's magically turns into fun. :ohyeah:
Quote from: hotrodalex on February 28, 2012, 01:03:25 PM
It doesn't evaporate, it's magically turns into fun. :ohyeah:
:ohyeah:
If I could chip either of my vehicles and get the same performamce increase as Raza's Jetter, I would do it in a heartbeat. It's a no brainer for me, but I don't lease.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 28, 2012, 12:58:25 PM
Uh, that $4k evaporates the second you spend it, plus that level of mod will hurt resale and leave you with a less reliable car...
He can recoup a bit if he goes back to stock when he sells, and people who would get the mods anyway would be willing to pay a premium for them.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 28, 2012, 12:58:25 PMMore like automotive ignorance from my POV.
And what exactly is your POV worth? Your pragmatic to the point of OCD; any reason to drive the most boring car possible is enough rationale for you. Your opinion on these matters are like the opinions of a hermit on where the best parties are. "agghh well its so noisy, and someone might step on your shoes, and its a huge waste of money" Man just keep stepping with all that garbage, its of no value to the conversation.
from a complete unthusiast accord appliance driver perspective - cougs is right...
From the perspective of a person with a passion for automobiles and driving enjoyment... not so much
Quote from: r0tor on February 28, 2012, 03:47:52 PM
from a complete unthusiast accord appliance driver perspective - cougs is right...
From the perspective of a person with a passion for automobiles and driving enjoyment... not so much
Even the complete unthusiast pragmatic bore may find it useful to chip away from the OEM program. Chipz may also be used to increase fuel economy, and lengthen automatic transmission life. OEM is always a compromise.
My suspension is completely not stock, and I will be turbo'ing the 940 during spring break. It will be completely reliable. Just depends on how you do it, I suppose.
Quote from: CJ on February 28, 2012, 03:57:06 PM
My suspension is completely not stock, and I will be turbo'ing the 940 during spring break. It will be completely reliable. Just depends on how you do it, I suppose.
I modded my new Accent with a strut bar, short shifter, leather steering wheel, aftermarket rimz, and a hacked up intake. It has been trouble-free for 29k miles, aside from a broken sun visor... maybe it was strut bar's fault... :mask:
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on February 28, 2012, 04:00:37 PM
I modded my new Accent with a strut bar, short shifter, leather steering wheel, aftermarket rimz, and a hacked up intake. It has been trouble-free for 29k miles, aside from a broken sun visor... maybe it was strut bar's fault... :mask:
:mask:
Quote from: GoCougs on February 27, 2012, 07:32:37 PM
You go in with engine problems and they find you're chipped, of course it will be denied. No difference if it were a cam or head swap.
Nope, not quite.
There's no reason to violate the warranty for the replacement of, oh: a water pump. If you burn out the injectors or throw a piston? Sure.
Cougs is against chips because then Raza's Jetta might be able to keep up with the almighty Accord.
Plus, the warranty is expired. Not sure why that matters anymore.
Quote from: hotrodalex on February 28, 2012, 04:45:53 PM
Cougs is against chips because then Raza's Jetta might be able to keep up with the almighty Accord.
BUT WHY DIDN'T VW JUST MAKE IT FASTER TO BEGIN WITH IF THEY SO OBVIOUSLY COULD?! :rolleyes: :lol:
Quote from: hotrodalex on February 28, 2012, 04:45:53 PM
Cougs is against chips because then Raza's Jetta might be able to keep up with the almighty Accord.
Now you're getting somewhere
Ha, ha, the 'SPIN has yet another one for the books:
The drunken bifecta scary-that-they-are/were-cops rohan and hounddog...
Sporty and his ignorant strawmanism...
r0tor and his incessant emoism...
Naive peanut gallery that is HRAlex and others...
Quote from: GoCougs on February 28, 2012, 07:39:11 PM
Ha, ha, the 'SPIN has yet another one for the books:
The drunken bifecta scary-that-they-are/were-cops rohan and hounddog...
Sporty and his ignorant strawmanism...
r0tor and his incessant emoism...
Naive peanut gallery that is HRAlex and others...
You must be a real hit at parties.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on February 28, 2012, 07:47:21 PM
You must be a real hit at parties.
Chicks dig it, especially when I wear a tight shirt and my fancy jeans.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 28, 2012, 07:39:11 PM
Ha, ha, the 'SPIN has yet another one for the books:
The drunken bifecta scary-that-they-are/were-cops rohan and hounddog...
Sporty and his ignorant strawmanism...
r0tor and his incessant emoism...
Naive peanut gallery that is HRAlex and others...
One can judge a man by his enemies and his peers...
What does it say of you that you've spent 5+ years in the company of such people?
Quote from: GoCougs on February 28, 2012, 08:39:32 PM
Chicks dig it, especially when I wear a tight shirt and my fancy jeans.
I'm gettin' randy just thinking about it.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 27, 2012, 07:07:10 PM
Why would an automaker spend hundreds of millions $$$ (or more) to develop an engine to only neuter it? They don't do that. Ever. Designing and building cars is a cutthroat business like any other.
Holden strangled the LS1 something awful when they first installed it in Commodores - Corvettes had 257kW from '97, but the '99 VT II Commodore LS1 managed only 220kW. Prior to the LS1, the top HSVs fitted with the highest-output Holden V8 made 230kW for ~$80k - it certainly would not do to have those customers suddenly beaten at the lights by a humble $30k Commodore with a 257kW LS1.
Then came a series of nice little jumps for each successive model update - 225kW for the VX, 235kW for the VY, 245kW for the VY II and finally 250kW for the VZ (or in the case of HSV, 250kW for the VT II, 255kW for the VX, 260 for the Y, 285 for the Y II and 297 for the Z). That sort of behaviour sounds very much like marketing-led neutering behaviour to me - a sort of drip-feed of upgrades, if you will.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on February 28, 2012, 08:41:33 PM
One can judge a man by his enemies and his peers...
What does it say of you that you've spent 5+ years in the company of such people?
Just because I have disagreement doesn't mean I take it personally - such a thing exists you realize...
Quote from: omicron on February 29, 2012, 06:59:14 AM
Holden strangled the LS1 something awful when they first installed it in Commodores - Corvettes had 257kW from '97, but the '99 VT II Commodore LS1 managed only 220kW. Prior to the LS1, the top HSVs fitted with the highest-output Holden V8 made 230kW for ~$80k - it certainly would not do to have those customers suddenly beaten at the lights by a humble $30k Commodore with a 257kW LS1.
Then came a series of nice little jumps for each successive model update - 225kW for the VX, 235kW for the VY, 245kW for the VY II and finally 250kW for the VZ (or in the case of HSV, 250kW for the VT II, 255kW for the VX, 260 for the Y, 285 for the Y II and 297 for the Z). That sort of behaviour sounds very much like marketing-led neutering behaviour to me - a sort of drip-feed of upgrades, if you will.
For another example, Ford magically found another 10 HP and 65 lb-ft in their Powerstroke so they could leapfrog the Duramax's power rating.
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/08/03/official-ford-6-7-liter-powerstroke-gets-800-lb-ft-as-of-next-w/
Quote from: GoCougs on February 28, 2012, 07:39:11 PM
Ha, ha, the 'SPIN has yet another one for the books:
The drunken bifecta scary-that-they-are/were-cops rohan and hounddog...
Sporty and his ignorant strawmanism...
r0tor and his incessant emoism...
Naive peanut gallery that is HRAlex and others...
Cougs and his remarkably complete lack of knowledge with respect to automobiles....
and probably women...
Quote from: r0tor on February 27, 2012, 07:20:16 PM
I've tuned my engine myself and tuned a few others and actually know what the fuck I'm talking about, how about you?
To be fair, aren't you on your 2nd motor now? Perhaps you shouldn't "tune" it so much.
For the record I know it probably wasn't anything to do with stuff you did.
Cougs doesn't know anything about actual automotive mechanics. He's just good at pretending.
Really? Shit. Now my entire perception of him has changed. What if he doesn't know anything about women too?
Did anyone mention anything about emissions in here?
Whats abouts thems.
Most likely won't be an issue, but I highly doubt companies that make tunes even bother looking at emissions changes.
Also I guess it depends on the emission testing regulations of your state. Probably kill your cat earlier, but that could be a long time either way.
Quote from: Onslaught on February 29, 2012, 10:01:37 PM
To be fair, aren't you on your 2nd motor now? Perhaps you shouldn't "tune" it so much.
For the record I know it probably wasn't anything to do with stuff you did.
If anything, I made it last longer as I increased the oil injection rates and lowered the temps the radiator fans kicked on at...
That's not necessarily a good thing...
If that would make the engine last longer, and Mazda had such an issue with the Renesis dying that they had to increase the warranty to 100k miles, why wouldn't they have just done that from the factory? It would have been infinitely cheaper to just recall the damn thing and reflash them to "your" engine settings than replace tons of engines.
The fact you think you know more than the hundreds of engineers that do it at Mazda is the fucking pinnacle of arrogance. It's mind blowing how you could even suggest such a thing and actually be serious. I'd like to believe that a supposed engineer isn't that stupid, and that you're just trollin hard, but sadly I don't think that's the case.
It's all relative to the goals you want to achieve and the parameters within which you have to work. He probably significantly increased emissions from the tailpipe, something the Mazda engineers didn't have an option of doing.
Quote from: MrH on March 01, 2012, 06:27:39 PM
That's not necessarily a good thing...
If that would make the engine last longer, and Mazda had such an issue with the Renesis dying that they had to increase the warranty to 100k miles, why wouldn't they have just done that from the factory? It would have been infinitely cheaper to just recall the damn thing and reflash them to "your" engine settings than replace tons of engines.
The fact you think you know more than the hundreds of engineers that do it at Mazda is the fucking pinnacle of arrogance. It's mind blowing how you could even suggest such a thing and actually be serious. I'd like to believe that a supposed engineer isn't that stupid, and that you're just trollin hard, but sadly I don't think that's the case.
Actually, Mazda reflashed my car at least with 6 different settings over the first few years- most of which were to continually increase the oil injection rates and one of which did change the radiator fan activation. Their initial screw ups led to my extended warranty that I exercised.
My oil injection rates didn't care about the lowest common denominator having to add oil a bit more frequently - theirs did. My oil injection didn't care about the catalytic converter since it was removed anyway - theirs did. Series 2 cars have an extra oil injector i dont have because it took them 4 years to realize their screw up in its entirety.
My air fuel ratios dont care about health of my non existent cat, theirs did to the point that they gave me $500 because they neutered the power output with their first ill advised flash at port.
OEM setups are complete compromises. The all knowing OEM isn't any better tuning then a well informed private party. Would you like to continue to troll further?
:popcorn:
Quote from: r0tor on March 01, 2012, 07:07:45 PM
OEM setups are complete compromises.
Andddddd we have a winner. Aftermarket tunes are still compromises (obviously any car set up is), but you can shift the priorities more towards your liking and ignore things you don't care as much about.
If the OEM knew all, why would there be such a huge aftermarket business? Some customers aren't very bright and will bite on anything, but there are lots of knowledgeable folks that still upgrade their cars. Plus, it's not like aftermarket companies don't have a roster full of engineers as well.
Chips from disreputable companies exist, but in general there are thousands of chipped or reflashed cars on the road that have had no reliability issues whatsoever. My specific flash has been in use by hundreds of users, with millions of miles of proof without complaint. Seems safe to me, and likely to be fairly rewarding in terms of driveability and power.
One of the big Subaru/Evo/BMW tuners, a guy named Shiv Pathak of Vishnu Tuning was apparently an OEM tuner for a time before going to the aftermarket.
Quote from: S204STi on March 02, 2012, 12:22:23 AM
Chips from disreputable companies exist, but in general there are thousands of chipped or reflashed cars on the road that have had no reliability issues whatsoever. My specific flash has been in use by hundreds of users, with millions of miles of proof without complaint. Seems safe to me, and likely to be fairly rewarding in terms of driveability and power.
Speaking of your brand, I recall reading that a lot of recent Subarus are set to run very lean under boost for emissions' sake.
Quote from: Secret Chimp on March 02, 2012, 12:55:45 AM
Speaking of your brand, I recall reading that a lot of recent Subarus are set to run very lean under boost for emissions' sake.
Great point. It is in fact generally better for Subarus to get tuned, particularly STIs, but all of them in general tend to have a safer tune once reflashed.
Quote from: Secret Chimp on March 01, 2012, 12:34:35 AM
Cougs doesn't know anything about actual automotive mechanics. He's just good at pretending.
Falling off at ~4000 rpm is she?