When Alfa Romeo first announced it was returning to North America, Bill Clinton was still president!  Eleven years and much procrastination, stalling and dithering later, North America still remains an Alfa-free zone.  Sure, there has been a handful of hyper-expensive 8C sports cars sold through selected Ferrari/Maserati dealers but where are the affordable Alfas that can be bought by mere mortals?

Kudos to Car and Driver for assembling a timeline of Alfa Romeo's broken promises and highlighting some historic events that have taken place during all those years Alfa has been jerking us around, just to provide some context to how long we've been waiting.

I love Alfa Romeos but I am so pissed off at the company for stringing us along for more than a decade.  The latest announcement is that Alfa will be here sometime in 2013 (presumably for the 2014 model year).  That's just 10 years off from the original launch date of 2003!  At this point I will only believe Alfa Romeo's return is for real when I am able to walk into a showroom and lay hands on a car myself.

Link to article here.......

http://blog.caranddriver.com/decade-of-delays-a-timeline-of-alfa-romeos-u-s-relaunch-8675309/

Can you blame 'em? Virtually nobody would buy their cars, and that's precisely why they didn't follow through.

Will the brand even be relevant by the time it gets here?

By the way, remarketing a brand takes a shit-ton of time, money, and energy. Come on, Fiat isn't even doing that well because it wanted freestanding dealers to sell them. And now, they're paying the price for it.

Selling cars is a tough business.

Does it really matter? The average American will always prefer the drab blandness of a Toyota Corolla or Nissan Versa (and other Japanese boxes) to a beautiful masterpiece that is an Alfa Giulietta. Alfa will be a small niche brand catering to a handful of purists or people who want to be different in terms of automotive style. I might be wrong, but I don't see a market for Alfa Romeo in the US.

The same goes for other European brands like Seat, Skoda, Citroen etc.

Quote from: the Teuton on May 06, 2011, 11:16:23 PM
By the way, remarketing a brand takes a shit-ton of time, money, and energy. Come on, Fiat isn't even doing that well because it wanted freestanding dealers to sell them. And now, they're paying the price for it.

Selling cars is a tough business.

Isn't doing well?  The 500 has only just gone on sale and supplies are very limited.  Unless your name happens to be Nostradamus, I don't think you (or anyone else, for that matter) can predict how well the 500 will do.  It's simply too early to tell.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on May 07, 2011, 05:46:22 AM
Does it really matter? The average American will always prefer the drab blandness of a Toyota Corolla or Nissan Versa (and other Japanese boxes) to a beautiful masterpiece that is an Alfa Giulietta. Alfa will be a small niche brand catering to a handful of purists or people who want to be different in terms of automotive style. I might be wrong, but I don't see a market for Alfa Romeo in the US.

The same goes for other European brands like Seat, Skoda, Citroen etc.

Quote from: Madman on May 07, 2011, 07:16:56 AM

Isn't doing well?  The 500 has only just gone on sale and supplies are very limited.  Unless your name happens to be Nostradamus, I don't think you (or anyone else. for that matter) can predict how well the 500 will do.  It's simply too early to tell.

By most all measures those are crappy cars borne of hyper government regulation and taxation. THAT'S why they'd fail in the US and THAT'S why they are not sold here. Car companies are very, very smart in these things.

Quote from: GoCougs on May 07, 2011, 08:50:50 AM
By most all measures those are crappy cars borne of hyper government regulation and taxation. THAT'S why they'd fail in the US and THAT'S why they are not sold here. Car companies are very, very smart in these things.

Alfa Romeo is a luxury make, that competes with Volvo, Saab and in some respects BMW and MB.


It's not like we'd be getting Dacias badged as Alfa's; we'd be getting essentially an Italian version of BMW.


It's not like Fiat would send over a 1.2L Alfa 166 for 60K USD and say it's good enough for us.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on May 07, 2011, 05:46:22 AM
Does it really matter? The average American will always prefer the drab blandness of a Toyota Corolla or Nissan Versa (and other Japanese boxes) to a beautiful masterpiece that is an Alfa Giulietta. Alfa will be a small niche brand catering to a handful of purists or people who want to be different in terms of automotive style. I might be wrong, but I don't see a market for Alfa Romeo in the US.

The same goes for other European brands like Seat, Skoda, Citroen etc.

Alfa won't be mainstream.



I think Alfa would do better here than Volvo or Saab.....that is if they can get a solid dealer network.


Even so, the Giuletta looks horrible.

Quote from: GoCougs on May 06, 2011, 11:11:41 PM
Can you blame 'em? Virtually nobody would buy their cars, and that's precisely why they didn't follow through.

I don't think that's true, either. The market for small compacts is starting to grow again, and that's all Fiat group makes. I think missing out on a piece of the pie would be dumb of them, especially when they're marketing them on nostalgia and emotion. (Fiat 500)

Quote from: 2o6 on May 07, 2011, 11:33:06 AM
Even so, the Giuletta looks horrible.

Design is subjective. Have you also seen one in person? My guess is that you have not. They look stunning in person. I turn my head everytime I see one.

Quote from: Madman on May 07, 2011, 07:16:56 AM

Isn't doing well?  The 500 has only just gone on sale and supplies are very limited.  Unless your name happens to be Nostradamus, I don't think you (or anyone else. for that matter) can predict how well the 500 will do.  It's simply too early to tell.

The two Western Pa. dealers that were supposed to sell them backed out because neither believed in building new, free-standing dealers for one little car. Fiat has no product support, and being honest, they should be selling Fiats at Chrysler dealers as a joint thing like what BMW does with MINI -- having its own floor space. We don't know when the Panda is coming out, and since Alfa is now back to 2015, there is no sign of complements for the cars.

Chrysler has no small cars other than the 500. And unlike the rest of the world, we don't have much history and heritage. People knew what Mini Coopers were here before they were sold here. Most people don't have a clue what a Fiat 500 is. When I saw an original one for the first time, I couldn't believe how small it was. No one knows what they are (or were), and Fiat isn't pushing the car hard enough in the marketplace.

Fiat/Chrysler isn't doing itself any favors by its strictness with dealer support.

Quote from: GoCougs on May 06, 2011, 11:11:41 PM
Can you blame 'em? Virtually nobody would buy their cars, and that's precisely why they didn't follow through.

I'd replace my Jetta with a 159 in a heartbeat. 

Yeah, I would totally buy an Alfa.

Quote from: Rupert on May 07, 2011, 05:11:42 PM
Yeah, I would totally buy an Alfa.

Actually, forget the 159, I'd rather have one of these:





With the 3.2, of course.

Quote from: the Teuton on May 07, 2011, 12:32:35 PM
Chrysler has no small cars other than the 500. And unlike the rest of the world, we don't have much history and heritage. People knew what Mini Coopers were here before they were sold here. Most people don't have a clue what a Fiat 500 is. When I saw an original one for the first time, I couldn't believe how small it was. No one knows what they are (or were), and Fiat isn't pushing the car hard enough in the marketplace.

No, hardly anyone in America knew what a Mini was prior to 2002.  BMW had to educate American consumers about the Mini's History and Heritage?.  Despite their efforts, I'm positive at least half the MINI owners in America know nothing about the Alec Issigonis-designed original.  Likewise, I doubt very many Fiat 500 buyers will see their new "cute little cars" as paying homage to the 1957 Nuova 500.  Like the thousands of MINI buyers across America, they will buy the 500 based on looks, fun and frugality.

Quote from: GoCougs on May 07, 2011, 08:50:50 AM
By most all measures those are crappy cars borne of hyper government regulation and taxation. THAT'S why they'd fail in the US and THAT'S why they are not sold here. Car companies are very, very smart in these things.

Did it ever occur to you that some people, even here in America, DON'T want a gas-guzzler?  Do us all a favour and save your radical, far-right propaganda for somebody who gives a shit.

With gas prices being what they are, I [heart] my 35 mpg, thank you very much.

Quote from: Madman on May 07, 2011, 06:47:03 PM
Did it ever occur to you that some people, even here in America, DON'T want a gas-guzzler?  Do us all a favour and save your radical, far-right propaganda for somebody who gives a shit.

Uh, and you'd waltz into a newly-christened Alfa dealer an plop down $30k for $20k worth of car? No, you wouldn't/couldn't.

It's a crappy car and that's why they don't sell it here. If you disagree, you're on the side of wrong. 

Quote from: GoCougs on May 07, 2011, 08:18:44 PM
Uh, and you'd waltz into a newly-christened Alfa dealer an plop down $30k for $20k worth of car? No, you wouldn't/couldn't.

It's a crappy car and that's why they don't sell it here. If you disagree, you're on the side of wrong. 

It's no more "unreliable" than say any other European make.

Quote from: Madman on May 07, 2011, 06:47:03 PM

No, hardly anyone in America knew what a Mini was prior to 2002.  BMW had to educate American consumers about the Mini's History and Heritage?.  Despite their efforts, I'm positive at least half the MINI owners in America know nothing about the Alec Issigonis-designed original.  Likewise, I doubt very many Fiat 500 buyers will see their new "cute little cars" as paying homage to the 1957 Nuova 500.  Like the thousands of MINI buyers across America, they will buy the 500 based on looks, fun and frugality.

There is one very big difference between the Mini and the 500.  The Mini was featured prominently in the film The Italian Job.  The original film used the original Mini and the remake used the new Mini.  An original Mini was also featured in the first Bourne film (which came out at the same time as the new Mini) and the new Mini was used in the second Austin Powers film (also released at the same time as the new Mini).  Americans at large have had no such exposure to the 500.

Quote from: MX793 on May 07, 2011, 09:09:21 PM
There is one very big difference between the Mini and the 500.  The Mini was featured prominently in the film The Italian Job.  The original film used the original Mini and the remake used the new Mini.  An original Mini was also featured in the first Bourne film (which came out at the same time as the new Mini) and the new Mini was used in the second Austin Powers film (also released at the same time as the new Mini).  Americans at large have had no such exposure to the 500.

Yeah, but the 500 is 5K cheaper for a car that is almost as nice inside.



It's also super cute and isn't old (Beetle).

Quote from: MX793 on May 07, 2011, 09:09:21 PM
There is one very big difference between the Mini and the 500.  The Mini was featured prominently in the film The Italian Job.  The original film used the original Mini and the remake used the new Mini.  An original Mini was also featured in the first Bourne film (which came out at the same time as the new Mini) and the new Mini was used in the second Austin Powers film (also released at the same time as the new Mini).  Americans at large have had no such exposure to the 500.

Um, Ikea uses an original 500 in many of their in-store advertisements on the ease of transport of flat pack furniture.

Quote from: 2o6 on May 07, 2011, 08:49:48 PM
It's no more "unreliable" than say any other European make.

What I meant by "crappy" was small, under-performing and especially, relatively expensive - the exact kind of cars Americans reject in great measure. They want the Cruze, Corolla, and to a lesser extent the Civic.

Quote from: GoCougs on May 07, 2011, 09:23:02 PM
What I meant by "crappy" was small, under-performing and especially, relatively expensive - the exact kind of cars Americans reject in great measure. They want the Cruze, Corolla, and to a lesser extent the Civic.

The smallest car Alfa Romeo makes is the MiTo, which is larger than the Mini Cooper.


The Giuletta is directly comparable to the Golf.

The 159 is actually bigger than the Saab 9-3 and competition.



Alfa isn't mainstream....

Quote from: MX793 on May 07, 2011, 09:09:21 PM
There is one very big difference between the Mini and the 500.  The Mini was featured prominently in the film The Italian Job.  The original film used the original Mini and the remake used the new Mini.  An original Mini was also featured in the first Bourne film (which came out at the same time as the new Mini) and the new Mini was used in the second Austin Powers film (also released at the same time as the new Mini).  Americans at large have had no such exposure to the 500.

The MINI Cooper/Cooper S was released in the US in March of 2002.  The Italian Job (remake) hit the screens on 30 May 2003, more than a year after the car went on sale in America.  Likewise, The Bourne Identity was released on 14 June 2002, some three months after the MINI's debut.  And it was actually the third Austin Powers film "Goldmember" that featured a new MINI but it wasn't released until 26 July 2002, four months after the MINI's American launch.

No doubt these films helped to publicise the new MINI, but they did nothing to educate the American public about the original BMC Mini's status as a British motoring icon.  That task was left to BMW/MINI dealers who referenced the original car in brochures and in-showroom display graphics.  The car sold (and continues to sell) on it's own merits.

Check out this 2001 article about the MINI Cooper.
http://www.cars.com/mini/cooper/2002/reviews/?revid=34760

Pay close attention to this paragraph........

"But other buyers seem confused by Mini-mania. "If it's a BMW, why doesn't it say so?" asked Shari Lemonious, a 36-year-old Detroit resident who checked out the Mini at the 2001 North American International Auto Show as part of the Detroit News 2001 Consumer Panel. "If Im going to drive a BMW, I want everyone to know it's a BMW." "

This woman was obviously oblivious to the Mini's History and Heritage?.  And, I suspect, most American MINI owners still are.  Some may only have a vauge understanding of MINI's past, thanks to the salesman who sold them the car.  But I'm willing to bet only a handful of MINI owners are real enthusiats who have a comprehensive understanding of the Mini's place in motoring history.

Fiat is sure to put up plenty of posters featuring the original Nuova 500 in their showrooms.  They're sure to tap into that "La Dolce Vita" vibe and educate potential buyers about their unique brand of retro-Italiana.  But this alone won't sell Americans on the new 500.  The merits of the car itself will be the ultimate selling point.  And, given how irresistibly fun the baby Fiat is, I think that will be more than enough.

Honestly, if Fiat's people had half a brain, they would have started co-marketing the 500 with Cars when it came out in 2006 -- because the movie was still an international sensation, and it would have made sense at the time despite the fact that Fiat's return was only a rumor.

This is what a good PR team does.

And even now, all we're hearing about in the new Cars movies are about the new featured cars. What they should do is introduce Luigi's grandson, the new 500. It's a huge missed opportunity.

People buy MINIs for the same reason people bought 318tis and C230Ks: because the fact that it's a cheap car with a recognizable premium image (BMW). The H&H? is there -- BMW won't let you forget it -- but all of its business is based around aspirational marketing. Why else would they be introducing a Goodwood Edition MINI? (OMG! It's a Rolls-Royce on the cheap!)

Where MINI got it right, though, is that a MINI looks distinct in that it isn't going to be cross-shopped with CPO 4-door lux cars. It is what it is. People like it because it's cute and it just happens to be a BMW. But make no mistake: It is an entry-level BMW. What is a 500 an entry-level model to? A Maserati? [See also: brand extension, mofos]

I would buy a Giulietta if it came in a 200hp+ performance model...but it doesn't.

Quote from: Madman on May 07, 2011, 10:10:59 PMPay close attention to this paragraph........

"But other buyers seem confused by Mini-mania. "If it's a BMW, why doesn't it say so?" asked Shari Lemonious, a 36-year-old Detroit resident who checked out the Mini at the 2001 North American International Auto Show as part of the Detroit News 2001 Consumer Panel. "If Im going to drive a BMW, I want everyone to know it's a BMW." "

Here's the perfect car for her.



Cheap buying price, but with the BMW badge on it everyone will know that she's driving a BMW! 

The MINI doesn't sell on the merits of the car itself - given it pretty much has some of the worst reliability of any car available people would do just the opposite if "merit" was a primary driver. People buy it primarily because it is a well-known British icon. I'm sure it has its driving appeal, but then so do lots and lots of other cars.

Quote from: GoCougs on May 08, 2011, 12:13:14 PM
The MINI doesn't sell on the merits of the car itself - given it pretty much has some of the worst reliability of any car available people would do just the opposite if "merit" was a primary driver. People buy it primarily because it is a well-known British icon. I'm sure it has its driving appeal, but then so do lots and lots of other cars.

Mini has styling advantage, and it really has that market all by itself.


The Mini is really in essence a more expensive (and better) Beetle, and the driving prowess just adds to it's appeal.


The Fiat isn't as well known, but it's still pretty well into consumers minds (Did everyone forget about the movie "Cars"?) and it's cheaper and arguably cuter.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on May 08, 2011, 11:58:06 AM

Here's the perfect car for her.



Cheap buying price, but with the BMW badge on it everyone will know that she's driving a BMW! 

Wow, the new 5 Series really does look like shit!   

Quote from: Madman on May 08, 2011, 09:01:08 PM

Wow, the new 5 Series really does look like shit!   

Have you not heard of the new BMW-Ford alliance? Watch the news!