Say what you want about JB, but the man makes a legitimate point. You might not agree with his proposed solution, but it's def hard to see the ATS succeeding when it literally offers nothing over the 3 besides an "American" badge. Even if you like the ATS, you have to be very optimistic to see it clobbering the 3 as is. But w/a standard V8, it would be a nice  to all this fucking green bullshit, and I bet they could make the V8 not be a complete gas guzzler. Either way GM has gotta do SOMETHIGN.

www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/05/how-gm-could-save-the-cadillac-ats-from-its-otherwise-inevitable-fate-of-complete-marketplace-failure

QuoteAn Open Letter To The People Who Make Decisions At Cadillac

Dear Cadillac Decision-Making People,

I hate you. Yes, you. You?ve stolen something from me. More specifically, you?ve stolen Cadillac from me. As a child, I was driven around in perhaps the last unapologetically great Caddy ? the 1979 Eldorado ? and I dreamed of the day when I would be able to buy a Cadillac of my own. While I was dreaming, and working, and anticipating that day, you, and people like you, shit all over the greatest brand in America in every way possible. You built and sold cars that were too poorly conceived and built to even earn the title of ?garbage?. Every few years you would bring out some deformed-looking crapwagon, your bought-and-paid for press lackeys would drool all over it, and the name ?Cadillac? would be further degraded in public like a heroin-addicted actress caught turning a trick outside a K-Mart by a giant movie-premiere spotlight.

Since the last real Eldorado died in 1985, you?ve built spacious cars, fast cars, plastichrome Tahoes, economical cars, and even somewhat reliable cars. You just haven?t bothered to build any Cadillacs. What is a Cadillac? It is, simply, a vehicle that is exemplary and desirable.

Now we have the ATS. Aren?t you ashamed of yourselves? Do you really think anybody wants this car? Do you really think anybody is willing to pay more for it than they would for an equivalently-powered BMW? Is this vehicle exemplary and desirable? The answer to these questions: Of course not. This car, along with every other vehicle you sell, should be summarily discontinued and replaced with actual Cadillacs. You?d be better off buying the tooling for the 2003 LS430, welding fins on said LS430, and selling that. It would be closer to the idea of ?Cadillac? than anything you have now.

It?s too late to fix all your mistakes, but I can fix this ATS thing right now, at minimal cost, and it will save the car from the sales scrapheap of history. It is not too late to save Cadillac. I?m not doing it for you, or for GM, or even for the poor American taxpayer who financed this whole boondoggle. I?m doing it for me, because I want my Cadillacs back.

We need to start by discarding the idea that you can beat the Germans by imitating them and charging more for the imitation than the original costs. The path to victory for Cadillac isn?t a racetrack in the Black Forest. What?s next: putting free boxes of Pocky in the glove compartment of the XTS to win over Infiniti M56 intenders? Stop imitating. Stop being fake. Do something authentically American with the product.

You may believe that nobody wants to pay good money for American stuff. You?re wrong. There are dozens of companies, from Alden to Gibson to Oxxford, that charge top dollar for genuinely American luxury goods. Go look at an Alden shoe. It isn?t a copy of a German shoe, or even of an English one. It?s an American shoe. Go look at a Gibson Les Paul. It isn?t an Ibanez rip-off sold for a higher sticker than the Ibanez then back-door comped with mail-in rebates.

Don?t get me wrong. Cadillac doesn?t have a tenth of the credibility that Alden or Oxxford have. Thirty years of dumping sewage on your customers have seen to that. Still, there?s romance and magic in the Cadillac name despite your best efforts, despite the XTS, despite the children-and-luggage-only backseat of the STS, despite the entire interior of every product you sold for at least two decades. Cadillac still means something to some people.

One of those things Cadillac means is simply understood: it means V-8 power.

As we speak, BMW is busy infuriating its loyal audience by putting four-cylinder engines back in their volume models and naming the resulting embarrassments after the outgoing six-cylinder cars. It?s a betrayal of the first order. What are you doing to capture the people who have been disaffected by BMW?s decisions? What?s that? You?re putting four-cylinder engines in the ATS? In the name of G-d, why? Do you really think that imitating BMW?s idiocy is a good idea? Hell, your base car doesn?t even have a turbo. Gosh, what would I rather have: a turbo BMW or a Cadillac with the same engine as a fuckin? Equinox?

This is what you need to do, so listen up: It?s time to make the ATS a real Cadillac. That means V-8 power. Standard. Call up GM Powertrain and tell them, and I am being specific here: ?We need a bunch of LS4, or LR4, or some sort of V-8 in the five-liter range here, and we need them right away.? Then put those V-8s in the ATS. Every single ATS should have a V-8. Every one of them. No fuel-economy specials, no loss-leaders, no rental-only exceptions. If an American man or woman on the street sees an ATS, he or she should understand that there is a V-8 engine beneath the hood of that vehicle.

Having done that, I want you to make this advertisement. Again, I?m being fairly specific. I will provide a script for the TV spot.

    (Our scene begins at the bottom of a long, steep road around a mountain. A BMW 328i and MERCEDES C-CLASS are visibly struggling to climb the hill.)

    VOICEOVER: BMW and Mercedes have made gutless four-cylinders engines mandatory. It?s time for Cadillac to once again show them what it means to be THE STANDARD OF THE WORLD.

    (There is the sound of a NASCAR V-8 being revved. A GIANT EAGLE appears in the sky. It flies down, lands behind the BMW and pins it with its talons. The camera cuts away to the rock face of the mountain and we are made to understand, through shadows, that the GIANT EAGLE is RAPING the BMW. Every twenty-fourth frame of this scene contains a subliminal image of the B-24 LIBERATOR.)

    VOICEOVER: Cadillac has made the V-8 standard again. How?s fuel economy? It?s just fine, thanks for asking.

    (The EAGLE is now landing on the MERCEDES, where a similar scene takes place. This time, the subliminal frame is of JOE LOUIS winning a boxing match.)

    VOICEOVER: The Cadillac ATS costs $29,995. No rebates, no sales, no bull. Come get a real car for the price of a toy.

    (The screen fades to black, the Cadillac script logo appears, and we once again hear a V-8 revving.)

    FINIS

I apologize for that part with the eagle, I was just getting excited there for a minute. At this point, some of you have some objections. I will now answer those objections.

   
• What about CAFE? What about it? Pay the government the fine. That?s what the Germans do. Don?t you want to be like them? Man the F up, already. Or get Obama to waive it for you. Either way.
• What about sales volume? With a standard V-8, sales will go up. Trust me. People want V-8 Cadillacs. That doesn?t mean they want V-Series Cadillacs. They want a car with eight cylinders and no excuses. Your competition offers one of these. It is called the 300C. It is a success. Learn from it.
• How are we supposed to make money selling a V-8 at $29,995? By cutting out the rebates and dealer kickbacks. Try selling an honest product at a fair price. It?s the only thing you haven?t tried. It might work.
• What about the CTS and XTS, which don?t offer a V-8? Doesn?t this destroy our brand hierarchy? It?s too late to worry about crap like that. It?s go time. The CTS can and should also get a standard V-8. Every existing XTS should be burned to the ground then dropped into the Marianas Trench. The people who designed and approved it should also be dropped into the Marianas Trench, as a warning to the others.
• It doesn?t fit. You sound like my high school girlfriend when you say that. Make it fit, the same way she did: with an engine hoist and a plasma torch.
• But, but, but, the 3.6-liter direct-injection V-6 offers similar power with greater?More numbers crap, boys. Nobody cares about your numbers. Nobody cared when the 1986 Seville Touring Sedan had more skidpad ?g? than the BMW 528e. The only number that matters is 8. That?s the number of cylinders a Cadillac should have, assuming you have no V-16 available at the moment.

What?s the worst that could happen? I will tell you. The car could completely flop. It could clog up dealer lots, appear in rental fleets, and be the subject of some humiliating $399/month lease. Guess what? That?s all going to happen to the four-cylinder brick of manure you?re about to start selling anyway. With a V-8 engine in the car, you?d at least have some pride in your product. Pride goes a long way. It holds forts, inspires heroism, straightens backs, generates ?Like? clicks on Facebook. Trust me on this.

We all know that nothing like what I have suggested is going to happen. The ATS will be released to glowing reviews in Motor Trend and polite indifference elsewhere. It won?t sell at the intro price. $5,000 rebates will appear. Eventually the car will be competing with the Buick Verano, dollar for dollar. The people who did bother to buy the early ones will hate you for giving the later ones away. The people who got the cheapies later will look forward to owning a real luxury car, like a four-cylinder, vinyl-seat BMW, the next time they lease. The Cadillac name will be worse off as a result. Thirty years from now, my son will speak the sentence ?those two great compact Cadillac failures, the ATS and Cimarron? in a holographic, super-neuro-cortical-interactive version of TTAC. The people visiting said site will mostly have been born after the Cadillac brand was shut down for low sales and non-existent brand equity. That?s the future. It sucks. Avoid it, please.

Sincerely,

Jack Baruth
Cadillac Fan

[/list]

This is the only interesting part of the whole editorial:

"The ATS will be released to glowing reviews in Motor Trend and polite indifference elsewhere."

This article is absolutely ridiculous. There is no reason to throw a V8 in the ATS. And while the author decries the Equinox engine going in the ATS, he's OK with an engine out of a Buick LaCrosse? Look, the LS4 is a cool engine, but it doesn't scream "luxury." The reality of the automotive business is that engines are used across brands. There is nothing wrong with the 4cyl engine that comes standard in the ATS, whatsoever. Maybe he'd be happy to resurrect the Northstar from the scrap heap. Ugh.

There are very few people who are clamoring for 8cyl engines in compact entry-lux cars. He says Cadillac shouldn't imitate BMW, but who says they're imitating them? They're competing with them. The dolt who wrote this column seems as if he's a dinosaur who still wants Cadillac to make the huge land yachts with heavy old V8s that nobody wants. People buy BMWs instead of Cadillacs for a few reasons: first, for years Caddy made huge-ass, gaudy, weird looking cars that only were purchased by senior citizens. And they handled like crap and had wet noodle suspensions, like most American cars do. The ATS seems to have fixed both of these issues.

Good on GM for getting the picture and giving us an innovative car we can be proud of rather than just throwing a V8 under the hood and making a car that is capable of going fast in a straight line, and little else.

The author seems content to ignore the fact that the cushy oversized SUV has largely replaced the cushy oversized sedan, and that Cadillac does quite well there. (With V8s, too.) He also seems to have forgotten that when Cadillac sold a traditional barge sedan right up until last year it did nothing to improve the brand's credibility.

Yeah, almost trolling in its "counterpoint" POV.

First, nobody wanted the CTS, and it did nothing objectively better than the competition, yet it's been a big success and otherwise saved the brand.

Second, GM doesn't have a proper luxury car V8 and it doesn't need one (for the CTS and ATS segments) with the 3.6L thumping out 323 hp.

I know virtually nothing about the ATS, and am not really all that interested, but it sounds like the only possible thing for Cadillac to do.

This guy should've just bought a DTS while they were still making those. Most people who bitch and moan about newer Cadillacs not being true to their H&H would've been well-served to at least have taken a look at the DTS, but unsurprisingly, they don't put their money where their mouth is. As a result, the DTS goes quietly into the night, and the cars that Cadillac has more success in selling are the "BMW wannabes".

I do agree with everything he said about the XTS, though. No reason to buy one over a 300C or even a Genesis. Sad.

Recently, I've been surprised to find that my parents' friends who are habitual Lexus customers have been buying Cadillacs.

Why? They're cheap (relatively speaking).

Everyone ignores the fact that the 2.0T in Audi products is used in almost everything VAG makes?




These cars are virtually on the same plane in regards of performance (to the consumer). Now it comes down to personal preference.

Quote from: Vinsanity on May 07, 2012, 04:28:43 PM


I do agree with everything he said about the XTS, though. No reason to buy one over a 300C or even a Genesis. Sad.

No one has driven the XTS.

I could not stand reading that article.


Fuck this guy, I am really excited for the ATS. The Cadillac engineers used the E46 3-series as a target when engineering the ATS, not the E90. That's big. GM's 270 HP turbo-4 will most likely have more lag than BMW's turbo-4 (and I bet it sounds and feels worse), but let's wait and see how it and the car feel. Be it that Cadillac pegged the ATS to the E46 3-series, we could have an enthusiast's winner here.

Although, I have to agree with him on the V8 front. The ATS-V must have the Corvette's V8. How awesome would this car be with an LS3?

I don't even know what an ATS is, but I can tell it's a dumb article by one word: Baruth.

Quote from: Rupert on May 08, 2012, 01:19:20 AM
I don't even know what an ATS is, but I can tell it's a dumb article by one word: Baruth.

You don't know what an ATS is? This is the internet, but dare I ask... have you been living under a really big rock?

I don't pay attention to, from what I gather, yet another mediocre luxury sporty-ish 3 series wannabe. I don't even pay attention to the 3-series.

Baruth is such a douche. 

The guy wants a 'Fuck Yeah!' V8 on the ATS, so he can merge safely off-ramp

Yeah i stopped reading after the first few lines. Is this from a fan blog or something? Doesn't sound professional at all.

Quote from: mzziaz on May 08, 2012, 01:39:34 AM
Baruth is such a douche. 

Agreed, Baruth is just full of fail. 

I couldn't read more than half of it before I decided I didn't want to waste anymore of my day.

I still think that while the ATS sounds like it will be a great tribute to the altar of 3, it will also be a great + needless sacrifice. There really is nothing "Cadillac" or "American" about this car, and like dude said, while the 300C wasn't a dynamic rival to the 3 it succeeded because it went its own way.

Personally I think Caddy should really push the style element as the forefront of their brand (like they used to) and stop trying to beat the Germans at their own game. Hate Baruth all you want... I generally find him pretty annoying... but can you really argue with these points...

"We need to start by discarding the idea that you can beat the Germans by imitating them and charging more for the imitation than the original costs." The G35 succeeded because it provided way more car than the E46 for about 80% the cost. Do you think the G35 would have been successful if it had all the same specs as the E46 and cost more?

"What about sales volume? With a standard V-8, sales will go up. Trust me. People want V-8 Cadillacs. That doesn?t mean they want V-Series Cadillacs. They want a car with eight cylinders and no excuses. Your competition offers one of these. It is called the 300C. It is a success. Learn from it." People are still buying 300Cs.

"What?s the worst that could happen? I will tell you. The car could completely flop. It could clog up dealer lots, appear in rental fleets, and be the subject of some humiliating $399/month lease. Guess what? That?s all going to happen to the four-cylinder brick of manure you?re about to start selling anyway." Seriously, why would anyone buy this for as much or more $$$$ than an equivalent 3?

People can say what they want and wax poetic about silent eco friendly turbo 4s... but a small car w/a naturally aspirated V8 in this depressing era of emissions prisons and all is the kind of bold move Cadillac needs to wake out of its CAR slump.

Quote from: sportyaccordy on May 08, 2012, 10:55:01 AM
There really is nothing "Cadillac" or "American" about this car

So you're saying it won't handle like a boat and be ignorantly overpowered during a time when gas is $4/gallon. Cool! Maybe the "Americans" finally get it!

QuotePersonally I think Caddy should really push the style element as the forefront of their brand (like they used to) and stop trying to beat the Germans at their own game. Hate Baruth all you want... I generally find him pretty annoying... but can you really argue with these points...

Sure I can argue with them. Sorry, but the "imported from Detroit" garbage that is the 300C is just another oversized land yacht that looks to me as if it's a wannabe Bentley for small-town rappers who haven't gotten a record deal yet.

Quote"We need to start by discarding the idea that you can beat the Germans by imitating them and charging more for the imitation than the original costs." The G35 succeeded because it provided way more car than the E46 for about 80% the cost. Do you think the G35 would have been successful if it had all the same specs as the E46 and cost more?

Well, the G35 was about 80% the car the E46 was, at about 80% of the price. It worked out.

Quote"What about sales volume? With a standard V-8, sales will go up. Trust me. People want V-8 Cadillacs. That doesn’t mean they want V-Series Cadillacs. They want a car with eight cylinders and no excuses. Your competition offers one of these. It is called the 300C. It is a success. Learn from it." People are still buying 300Cs.

The people who are buying 300Cs are NOT the people who will buy an ATS. The people who will buy an ATS will cross-shop it with the 3er, A4 and C-Class. None of these people want a gass-guzzling V8 in a compact entry-lux sedan. They just don't. And WHY is this guy so obsessed with the 300C? Everyone I ever see driving one is, ironically, either a senior citizen or someone who looks like they're about to sell me crack. Jesus.

Quote"What’s the worst that could happen? I will tell you. The car could completely flop. It could clog up dealer lots, appear in rental fleets, and be the subject of some humiliating $399/month lease. Guess what? That’s all going to happen to the four-cylinder brick of manure you’re about to start selling anyway." Seriously, why would anyone buy this for as much or more $$$$ than an equivalent 3?

There's a $399 lease option on the '12 328i. Why is this "humiliating?"

QuotePeople can say what they want and wax poetic about silent eco friendly turbo 4s... but a small car w/a naturally aspirated V8 in this depressing era of emissions prisons and all is the kind of bold move Cadillac needs to wake out of its CAR slump.

If you want a V8, buy a fucking Camaro. They might even throw in a free Van Halen record with the purchase.

Man, administration on this board is very different from the admin and mods on my other board.

I'm really excited for the ATS. And considering how much praise the 328i has been getting from car mags, this guy is on crack to think that everyone wants a V8 entry lux sedan.

As I said earlier, all of these cars are virtually on the same plane in regards to performance. Now it just comes down to price and personal preference.

A BMW 328i and MERCEDES C-CLASS are visibly struggling to climb the hill.


Wow, what kind of hills do you have in America that a BMW 328i and MB C-Class can't drive up!?!?!? 

Quote from: cawimmer430 on May 08, 2012, 01:53:16 PM
A BMW 328i and MERCEDES C-CLASS are visibly struggling to climb the hill.


Wow, what kind of hills do you have in America that a BMW 328i and MB C-Class can't drive up!?!?!? 

"Struggling" is probably being used to mean "making a lot of noise," which is something you generally don't want your luxury car to do just to maintain speed.

Quote from: ifcar on May 08, 2012, 01:55:01 PM
"Struggling" is probably being used to mean "making a lot of noise," which is something you generally don't want your luxury car to do just to maintain speed.

I don't really hear my engine struggling when I drive up a hill in a lowly BMW 118i. And that car is really loud at 140 km/h on the Autobahn. I can't even hear the radio.

What a silly, silly article.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on May 08, 2012, 01:57:56 PM
I don't really hear my engine struggling when I drive up a hill in a lowly BMW 118i. And that car is really loud at 140 km/h on the Autobahn. I can't even hear the radio.

Wimmer, it's a hypothetical commercial in an editorial...stop taking it so seriously.

I've never heard of a car that succeeded by literally doing what others do for the same or more $$$

I really just have two questions.

What does the ATS offer that isn't available?

Why would anyone in the target market get an ATS over any of the competition?

Again the point about the V8 was really tongue in cheek. Why people are freaking out about that I don't know. But the underlying point, questioning the feasibility of this car's potential to sell, is 100% valid.

Quote from: sportyaccordy on May 08, 2012, 05:08:24 PM
I've never heard of a car that succeeded by literally doing what others do for the same or more $$$

I really just have two questions.

What does the ATS offer that isn't available?

Why would anyone in the target market get an ATS over any of the competition?

Again the point about the V8 was really tongue in cheek. Why people are freaking out about that I don't know. But the underlying point, questioning the feasibility of this car's potential to sell, is 100% valid.

The car this article is describing is this:





And no one wants that.




What does the A4 offer the 3-series can't do? What does the ATS offer the C-class can't do? What does the IS offer the 3-series can't do?

Quote from: Raza  link=topic=27381.msg1716691#msg1716691 date=1336510101
Wimmer, it's a hypothetical commercial in an editorial...stop taking it so seriously.

Yeah, but the writer still said it. And it was an absolutely ridiculous thing to say that deserves being called out.