Quote from: GoCougs on February 24, 2015, 12:08:34 PM
I've owned a few cars with RWD LSDs, and have driven them quite a bit in snow. In short, LSD + snow/ice = risky. Note however these were vehicles without any ABS, TC or stability control.

FWIW, I got caught in an unseasonably early snow dusting once when I had my BMW Z3 (RWD + LSD + Summer Tires). It was hilariously bad in snow that was less than an inch (maybe less than half an inch). It couldn't even go up a ~5 degree incline (just a normal stretch of street). I actually started sliding backwards...was flabbergasted it was that bad. Admittedly these might have been tires beyond their recommended wear levels (don't remember), but it was astonishing.

Quote from: SJ_GTI on February 24, 2015, 12:29:23 PM
FWIW, I got caught in an unseasonably early snow dusting once when I had my BMW Z3 (RWD + LSD + Summer Tires). It was hilariously bad in snow that was less than an inch (maybe less than half an inch). It couldn't even go up a ~5 degree incline (just a normal stretch of street). I actually started sliding backwards...was flabbergasted it was that bad. Admittedly these might have been tires beyond their recommended wear levels (don't remember), but it was astonishing.

Besides the tread pattern Summer tires are compounded differently which results in their being not so grippy in cold conditions. 

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 24, 2015, 12:11:43 PM
The Z is tricky with TCS on in the wet so snow is pretty much a no go. I am on summer tires though. Im sure a weak RWD car on snow tires would be fine tho

Roadkill guys drove the Crusher Camaro ('69 Camaro with 700 hp I think) across the country in the snow using the same tires I have - DWS all seasons. Didn't have too much trouble. Snow tires would have been even better. Avoiding caveman throttle inputs and having decent tires goes a lot further than most people think.

Quote from: CLKid on February 24, 2015, 12:32:25 PM
Besides the tread pattern Summer tires are compounded differently which results in their being not so grippy in cold conditions. 

This winter I drove a mile to the laundromat and when it started snowing. There was barely anything sticking to the road but it was nervewracking - I was sliding all over the place. They are brand new summer performance tires, but tread pattern and rubber compounds make all the difference.

Quote from: SJ_GTI on February 24, 2015, 12:26:08 PM
I don't think that is right. IMHO (and limited experience with AWD/FWD) having proper snow tires is a much better help than anything else. I would probably go something more like this:

AWD - snow tires
FWD - snow tires (w/LSD)
FWD - snow tires  <----------< most traction for the buck sweet spot.
RWD - snow tires (LSD)
RWD - snow tires
AWD - all season tires
FWD - all season tires (LSD)
FWD - all season tires
RWD - all season tires (LSD)
RWD - all season tires

JMHO of course.

I can go with that - snow tires trump all. Of course I have needed snow tires all of about five days out of 20 years of living in Atlanta - so this is purely armchair guesswork on my part. 

Quote from: Morris Minor on February 24, 2015, 02:30:01 PM
I can go with that - snow tires trump all. Of course I have needed snow tires all of about five days out of 20 years of living in Atlanta - so this is purely armchair guesswork on my part. 

Lots of people with studded snows out here, maybe been used twice. For the west coast it's been a good year to keep your all seasons.

Quote from: Speed_Racer on February 24, 2015, 01:57:52 PM
This winter I drove a mile to the laundromat and when it started snowing. There was barely anything sticking to the road but it was nervewracking - I was sliding all over the place. They are brand new summer performance tires, but tread pattern and rubber compounds make all the difference.

Yup, the summer tires on my Mustang were comically (and terrifyingly) poor in even the lightest dusting of snow when I got caught in some late-season snowfall last year.  I went to back out of my perfectly flat driveway and simply easing out the clutch in reverse without touching the throttle elicited wheelspin.  I drove through a similar light snow with the OEM all-seasons when I first got it and it wasn't bad at all.

Quote from: SJ_GTI on February 24, 2015, 12:26:08 PM
I don't think that is right. IMHO (and limited experience with AWD/FWD) having proper snow tires is a much better help than anything else. I would probably go something more like this:

AWD - snow tires
FWD - snow tires (w/LSD)
FWD - snow tires  <----------< most traction for the buck sweet spot.
RWD - snow tires (LSD)
RWD - snow tires
AWD - all season tires
FWD - all season tires (LSD)
FWD - all season tires
RWD - all season tires (LSD)
RWD - all season tires

JMHO of course.

Strongly disagree...

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 24, 2015, 09:40:03 AM
Open diff gives power to the wheel that slips, so theres that.

Not sure why folks are saying LSDs would put the car in a ditch. Most LSDs are one way (acceleration only).

As mentioned earlier, open diff only 1 wheel spins while an LSD will have 2 wheels spin.

A fwd car can still turn with 1 front wheel spinning.  A FWD car will not turn with 2 front wheels spinning.  A rwd car will generally still track well with 1 rear wheel spinning, it will snap oversteer with 2 rear wheels spinning.

Quote from: Morris Minor on February 24, 2015, 09:47:58 AM
EDITED

So, generalizing,  in descending order of desirability for general driving in the snowbelt, I'm going to say:

AWD - snow tires
AWD - all season tires
FWD - snow tires (w/LSD)
FWD - snow tires  <----------< most traction for the buck sweet spot.
FWD - all season tires (LSD)
FWD - all season tires
RWD - snow tires (LSD)
RWD - snow tires
RWD - all season tires (LSD)
RWD - all season tires

I ranked LSD on the assumption of good driving technique: it's better than an open diff for getting you unstuck, but tricky if you drive like an idiot.

I actually agree with this list exactly.



I've driven quite a few RWD cars in the snow in the last few years, all with LSDs.  Miata on both summer tires and snow tires, BRZ with summer and winter tires, Genesis on all seasons.

None come even close to the Element on all seasons.

Quote from: MrH on February 24, 2015, 04:50:47 PM
I actually agree with this list exactly.



I've driven quite a few RWD cars in the snow in the last few years, all with LSDs.  Miata on both summer tires and snow tires, BRZ with summer and winter tires, Genesis on all seasons.

None come even close to the Element on all seasons.

Agreed

Quote from: r0tor on February 24, 2015, 05:26:27 PM
Agreed

Disagree with this.

Quote from: r0tor on February 24, 2015, 03:47:19 PM
Strongly disagree...

Agreed.

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 24, 2015, 09:40:03 AM
Open diff gives power to the wheel that slips, so theres that.

Not sure why folks are saying LSDs would put the car in a ditch. Most LSDs are one way (acceleration only).

Turning right from a stop, for example.

Obviously good technique goes a long way, and so do tires, but it's kind of a PITA to have to be so super light and delicate driving everywhere if you get snow for a few days, let alone all winter. It's an annoyance issue more than anything.

My old 2CV was great in the snow. Lots of weight over the narrow-tired driving wheels.

Tires, the only things connecting you to the road. 

Quote from: SJ_GTI on February 24, 2015, 12:26:08 PM
I don't think that is right. IMHO (and limited experience with AWD/FWD) having proper snow tires is a much better help than anything else. I would probably go something more like this:

AWD - snow tires
FWD - snow tires (w/LSD)
FWD - snow tires  <----------< most traction for the buck sweet spot.
RWD - snow tires (LSD)
RWD - snow tires
AWD - all season tires
FWD - all season tires (LSD)
FWD - all season tires
RWD - all season tires (LSD)
RWD - all season tires

JMHO of course.

I have no experience with snow tires, but I've done FWD, RWD, and AWD in snow on all seasons. The AWD was so impressive I can't ever see the need to get snow tires for an AWD car (at least for the life I live, Northeast US city life).

Quote from: Raza  on March 05, 2015, 08:03:59 AM
I have no experience with snow tires, but I've done FWD, RWD, and AWD in snow on all seasons. The AWD was so impressive I can't ever see the need to get snow tires for an AWD car (at least for the life I live, Northeast US city life).

Having driven both in the snow, I would take FWD with snow tires any day of the week, and twice on sunday.

AWD helps you get going, but doesn't help with stopping in the least.

I've found my Pilot AS3s aren't so great in the snow, which I totally expected. My mom's A4 on DWS's is a total champ.

DWS seems to be the best winter all-season by a huge margin.

Only snow that I have to worry about down here is the kind that people snort. So RWD+LSD+Semislicks FTW

Quote from: SJ_GTI on March 05, 2015, 11:33:45 AM
Having driven both in the snow, I would take FWD with snow tires any day of the week, and twice on sunday.

AWD helps you get going, but doesn't help with stopping in the least.

Stopping in the slick stuff is a driver installed option

Quote from: r0tor on March 05, 2015, 07:33:30 PM
Stopping in the slick stuff is a driver installed option

Forgotten about usually.