Quote from: Raza  on April 18, 2016, 10:13:38 PM
Things a Focus RS or Golf R can do that a Camaro or Mustang can't (out of the box): move a chest of drawers, drive in the snow, carry four people comfortably.  That's what I'm talking about. 

This Sounds more like a Crew Cab pick up than a sports car!    And FYI I drove my Z28s (and a Mustang GT) year round and plenty of people drive Pony Cars year round here in SNOWY ASS Cleveland.....

Quote from: GoCougs on April 18, 2016, 10:44:59 PM
Then why do the Mustang and Camaro each outsell (let alone both together) all other performance cars at all price points put together?

Pony cars are not second cars - the vast majority of Americans cannot afford a $25k+ second/plaything car. Americans drive them as primary cars and get by just fine.

The STI, Golf R, Focus RS, etc., perform fine but can only just barely dream of seeing the taillights of an equivalently-priced Camaro SS or Mustang GT.

Preach........

Quote from: SJ_GTI on April 18, 2016, 01:13:10 PM
I do not think the criticism on price is justified, personally. At ~40k these hot hatches (the Focus and Golf) seem like bargains for what you get.  The Golf R in particular seems like a bargain S3 with a better (re: more practical) body style.

The S3 isn't a great car either. It's a Golf with an Audi badge and an even shittier AWD system, there is almost zero reason to buy one over a Golf R.

Again, as many people pointed outx the Golf is just not a bargin at any price - it's performance is inferior to GT Mustang that is essentially fully loaded at that price, and it offers NOTHING.

Hatch back utility?

I've owned a 2 seater, a sedan and now a coupe, and I can count on 1 hand how many times the extra utility would have come in handy. Let's be real here, I'm not going to buy a school bus for the few situations I have to drive my friends around.

It just doesn't make a compelling case for itself, I can't see any real car guy buying this over a 2 series, or a Mustang/Camro.

Quote from: GoCougs on April 18, 2016, 10:44:59 PM
Then why do the Mustang and Camaro each outsell (let alone both together) all other performance cars at all price points put together?

Pony cars are not second cars - the vast majority of Americans cannot afford a $25k+ second/plaything car. Americans drive them as primary cars and get by just fine.

The STI, Golf R, Focus RS, etc., perform fine but can only just barely dream of seeing the taillights of an equivalently-priced Camaro SS or Mustang GT.

Why do you wven entertain Raza? The kid doesn't know a damn thing about cars, and is willing to praise anything with  VW badge on the merits of having a soft touch dash.

Heaven forbid people want to actually drive their cars.

Quote from: Char on April 19, 2016, 05:02:38 AM
The S3 isn't a great car either. It's a Golf with an Audi badge and an even shittier AWD system, there is almost zero reason to buy one over a Golf R.

Again, as many people pointed outx the Golf is just not a bargin at any price - it's performance is inferior to GT Mustang that is essentially fully loaded at that price, and it offers NOTHING.

Hatch back utility?

I've owned a 2 seater, a sedan and now a coupe, and I can count on 1 hand how many times the extra utility would have come in handy. Let's be real here, I'm not going to buy a school bus for the few situations I have to drive my friends around.

It just doesn't make a compelling case for itself, I can't see any real car guy buying this over a 2 series, or a Mustang/Camro.

Not everybody is single and childless.  For people with kids, who need to drive their kids around daily, an easily accessible back seat is a must.  For people with multiple large dogs, or even one large dog, something with either a hatchback cargo area or easily accessible back seat is immensely useful.  The fact that some people are trying to argue that a pony car or similar sized (or smaller) premium coupe is as practical as a hot hatch is honestly laughable.

Quote from: GoCougs on April 18, 2016, 10:44:59 PM
Then why do the Mustang and Camaro each outsell (let alone both together) all other performance cars at all price points put together?

Pony cars are not second cars - the vast majority of Americans cannot afford a $25k+ second/plaything car. Americans drive them as primary cars and get by just fine.

The STI, Golf R, Focus RS, etc., perform fine but can only just barely dream of seeing the taillights of an equivalently-priced Camaro SS or Mustang GT.

Because Mrrca. I feel for MX793 for having to associate with the Mustang breed. Most of them are..... to put it kindly.... special. So practical considerations don't come to mind for them.

And the Rustang is handily outselling the Camaro in their current iterations, despite the Camaro wiping the floor with it performance wise. Why? Pricing might be part of it, but I'd also bet it's the fact that the Rustang is an order of magnitude easier to live with, see out of, etc. etc.

Pony cars require a commitment most people are not willing to and don't really have to make. Is ~0.5s to 60 really worth having no trunk or back seat? Hell if you believed any of this stuff you wouldn't drive an Infiniti G. Coulda had a Z bro.

I don't think there is a right answer that will "prove" anything one way or the other.

Is the Golf R and Focus RS the absolute top performers? No, they are a mix of performance and practicality. The are a niche product, but again I don't think the price asked for them is unreasonable.  ~300 HP, AWD, Manual or DSG, seats 4 comfortably and can also carry plenty of stuff in the hatch, to me that is a nice package at 40k. I am single with no kids and I have little interest in owning another coupe. When I had my GTI my biggest regret was getting the 2-door version instead of the four door version. Well that, plus I missed having AWD. 

I would also say you guys have to keep in mind the 40k versions of these cars are fully loaded models, not the bare-bones models (not that you can really get a "bare bones" version). From reading TCL every purchase thread on the Golf R seems to suggest that Volkswagen is easily selling every one they import at MSRP. I suspect Ford will be similarly successful with the Focus RS.

Quote from: GoCougs on April 18, 2016, 10:44:59 PM
Then why do the Mustang and Camaro each outsell (let alone both together) all other performance cars at all price points put together?

Pony cars are not second cars - the vast majority of Americans cannot afford a $25k+ second/plaything car. Americans drive them as primary cars and get by just fine.

That's a good point. I hadn't thought of that. Perhaps the sales are bolstered by parts of the country that don't have harsh winters.

Quote
The STI, Golf R, Focus RS, etc., perform fine but can only just barely dream of seeing the taillights of an equivalently-priced Camaro SS or Mustang GT.

I never said they wouldn't be outperformed by the Camaro SS and Mustang GT. All I said was that they were more well rounded--which they undoubtedly are.

Quote from: Char on April 19, 2016, 05:08:51 AM
Why do you wven entertain Raza? The kid doesn't know a damn thing about cars, and is willing to praise anything with  VW badge on the merits of having a soft touch dash.

Heaven forbid people want to actually drive their cars.

Lol.

Quote from: Char on April 19, 2016, 05:08:51 AM
Why do you wven entertain Raza? The kid doesn't know a damn thing about cars, and is willing to praise anything with  VW badge on the merits of having a soft touch dash.

Heaven forbid people want to actually drive their cars.

Whats it like to know that people here universally value Raza's opinions of cars over yours?

You are a special kind of masochist

Quote from: Raza  on April 19, 2016, 06:37:31 AM
That's a good point. I hadn't thought of that. Perhaps the sales are bolstered by parts of the country that don't have harsh winters.

I saw a bazillion more percent down in Georgia....

Btw people buy cars which are inferior (in terms of practicality) for image and because dumb.

Minivans > 3row suv for most families, but you know how that goes.....

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on April 19, 2016, 06:49:03 AM
Whats it like to know that people here universally value Raza's opinions of cars over yours?

You are a special kind of masochist

+1

Also LOL at kids calling Raza a kid....

Quote from: AutobahnSHO on April 19, 2016, 07:14:57 AM
I saw a bazillion more percent down in Georgia....

It's not like they're a rare sight up here.  I'll see a dozen or more per day.  Most are V6s though, which I assume come on less aggressive rubber and are easier to deal with in the snow.  I know my Z4, on its summer tires, with its like 3" of ground clearance, is not a snow-ready vehicle.  I park it even in light snow.  But it's not like I don't have experience driving RWD in snow; my E320 was RWD, and I had that when I was a novice driver.

I guess I never really gave much thought to it.  But then again, driving my brother's S4 in the snow has spoiled me from ever wanting to deal with RWD in snow again.  AWD is so effortless. 

Quote from: Raza  on April 19, 2016, 07:29:50 AM
It's not like they're a rare sight up here.  I'll see a dozen or more per day.  Most are V6s though, which I assume come on less aggressive rubber and are easier to deal with in the snow.  I know my Z4, on its summer tires, with its like 3" of ground clearance, is not a snow-ready vehicle.  I park it even in light snow.  But it's not like I don't have experience driving RWD in snow; my E320 was RWD, and I had that when I was a novice driver.

I guess I never really gave much thought to it.  But then again, driving my brother's S4 in the snow has spoiled me from ever wanting to deal with RWD in snow again.  AWD is so effortless. 

It's night and day how many more are down south compared to upstate NY. Or I should say, Apples and Oranges. Subarus and Mustangs.
Literally.

Summer tires are garbage in the snow.  With snow tires, you could get by in a Mustang or other RWD in most any well populated area that gets snow.

Quote from: MX793 on April 19, 2016, 07:42:31 AM
Summer tires are garbage in the snow.  With snow tires, you could get by in a Mustang or other RWD in most any well populated area that gets snow.

Yeah, but that requires storage space and effort.  I guess living in a city and being lazy make it seem like too much of a hurdle for me.   

A garage + good weather have changed my life. It's just a shame.... or maybe a blessing... that I have this all now that my interest in cars has sharply declined. 10 years ago I probably would have a project on jackstands in the garage. Now changing the radio out is a big deal

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on April 19, 2016, 08:31:43 AM
A garage + good weather have changed my life. It's just a shame.... or maybe a blessing... that I have this all now that my interest in cars has sharply declined. 10 years ago I probably would have a project on jackstands in the garage. Now changing the radio out is a big deal

What do you end up doing??   Wait until kids come along- you lose time for Everything.

Raza, have you driven a Camaro or Mustang in snow? They're heavy, and that goes a long way for snow traction. I've driven a few over the years, and I felt more confident in the snow with those than a few small FWD hatchbacks.

Quote from: Char on April 19, 2016, 05:02:38 AM
The S3 isn't a great car either. It's a Golf with an Audi badge and an even shittier AWD system, there is almost zero reason to buy one over a Golf R.

Again, as many people pointed outx the Golf is just not a bargin at any price - it's performance is inferior to GT Mustang that is essentially fully loaded at that price, and it offers NOTHING.

Hatch back utility?

I've owned a 2 seater, a sedan and now a coupe, and I can count on 1 hand how many times the extra utility would have come in handy. Let's be real here, I'm not going to buy a school bus for the few situations I have to drive my friends around.

It just doesn't make a compelling case for itself, I can't see any real car guy buying this over a 2 series, or a Mustang/Camro.

A Golf R or Focus RS would be perfect to take friends to skiing on a Saturday and then a track day on Sunday.

Quote from: Cookie Monster on April 19, 2016, 10:08:02 AM
A Golf R or Focus RS would be perfect to take friends to skiing on a Saturday and then a track day on Sunday.

NO!!! True enthusiasts drive off lease BMWs.

I get by in an old ass El Camino on DWS all seasons and no traction control. Never once had a problem in the snow. If a modern car can't handle snow on decent tires, it should be sent to the crusher.

I think a lot of cars come with shitty tires from the factory. I know mine did. Every car should come with DWSs stock.

+1

Quote from: 2o6 on April 19, 2016, 09:49:24 AM
Raza, have you driven a Camaro or Mustang in snow? They're heavy, and that goes a long way for snow traction. I've driven a few over the years, and I felt more confident in the snow with those than a few small FWD hatchbacks.

No, I haven't. But I've seen plenty on the side of the roads when my Jetta kept going. Didn't take the time to inspect their tires though.

Quote from: CaminoRacer on April 19, 2016, 11:13:42 AM
I get by in an old ass El Camino on DWS all seasons and no traction control. Never once had a problem in the snow. If a modern car can't handle snow on decent tires, it should be sent to the crusher.

For me, it's not about "can handle". It's "why deal with the hassle?" I've done RWD, FWD, and AWD in the snow, and while I've always made it to my destination, there's a level of effort that is required to do so that changes depending on drivetrain (and, of course, tires). As it stands, when I go to look for a second car, I'm not even considering RWD; I've already got a sports car. I want to lower the amount of effort it needs to get around in shit weather for my "daily" driver.

I avoided driving my last one in the snow (and have the same intentions for my current one) more in the interest of avoiding salt than concern over it getting stuck.  That said, I did end up driving in some light, late or early season snowfalls a couple of times.  With the stock A/S tires, it was perfectly fine in the few tenths of an inch on the ground that I had to drive through.  I had to drive it in similar conditions once after I'd installed hi-po summer tires and it was awful.  Simply letting out the clutch without applying the throttle would spin the wheels.  Took like 45 seconds to get to 30 mph and what felt like 50 yards to stop from that speed.  I don't think I got above 30 mph on 40-50 mph roads.  Needless to say, I irritated a lot of morning commuters that day.  After that, I wouldn't drive it on those tires if there was even a chance for snow.

Is there really that huge of a difference between hi po A/S and summer tires?

Oh dear god yes.  Night and day.

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on April 19, 2016, 12:36:55 PM
Is there really that huge of a difference between hi po A/S and summer tires?

Yes.  Read any of the numerous comparos of winter, A/S, and summer only tires in snow.  And I was only driving in maybe half an inch of snow and the tires still had 7-8/32 of tread on them.  Compound and limited siping just had no traction.