991 Targa for me. 

I'll take any 997.2 car.  4S, 2S, Turbo, GT3.  They all work for me   4S in blue is what I most want though.  They've got that horizontal taillight strip that goes all the way across.  Direct injection engines that are bulletproof.

Lol @ the stickshift in a 500 hp street car being your limiting factor on public roads.

"If only I felt more comfortable power shifting at 9000rpm I could have really opened her up on that 35 mph sweeper."

Like Nick said, if I'm dealing with some monster that will break traction at quarter throttle, I'll feel a lot safer in the manual where I know I can keep it level.

Most modern 500 hp cars are pretty docile IMO. Especially with ESC.

Quote from: CaminoRacer on April 28, 2017, 01:27:07 PM
Most modern 500 hp cars are pretty docile IMO. Especially with ESC.

Well yeah, especially at low speeds, but your limiting factor will always be power and room to run, not the couple tenths of a second the DCT or Auto provides you over the manual.

Mi middle name is Manuel. Seriously.

From the June issue of "CAR" magazine:

"Or if you fancy something a little lower-key than the GT3, look out for the X90 Touring Pack version. Only available in manual transmission form, it trades in the flash wingwork and the racy interior for the more subtle aero kit of the discontinued 911 R and a period leather-with-corduroy trim."

Add that to this Statement made by Jethro:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ts2OWUM-erU

"If you just spent half a million quid on a 911r last week; you're a ****ing idiot"

Hahhahaha. That's awesome. !!

It needs to be said though, other than 60k+, there's not much out there for car handling enthusiasts anymore.

You've got Mazda and the 86/BRZ and the rest of the lot are pretty numb.

Oh to be a baller and get to choose which Porsche matched my commute 😂

Camaro/Mustang dominate all categories for $35k.

Quote from: CaminoRacer on May 19, 2017, 07:46:02 AM
Camaro/Mustang dominate all categories for $35k.

The camaro's steering is lifeless. Accurate. But it might as well be from a midsizer

Quote from: Rich on May 19, 2017, 07:53:40 AM
The camaro's steering is lifeless. Accurate. But it might as well be from a midsizer

Have you driven the new one?  Or are you talking about the previous generation?

I have the new one as a rental. Small diameter wheel and it's accurate and weights up nicely. But that's it. I would really need to try a 1LE Camaro to have more credibility, but I'm not interested in the Camaro for other reasons.

Now that I've driven a bunch of new and newish cars it's the new normal.

I was going to say, over the Miata's life what has matched up in handling for the $$$? Only thing I can think of is the MR-S and now the BRZ. It's always been its own thing.

GTI/R, FiST/FoST, Camaro/Mustang, entry level lux like the ATS, Civic Si, Elantra Sport... there are some fun things

"Elantra Sport"

Maybe it's because I spent several years driving vehicles with no steering feel whatsoever, between my '11 Mustang and Jetta, but the new Mustang's steering is pretty good.  Not only does it weight up well, but you actually feel stuff transmitting up to the wheel from the tires.  It's not as pure and unfiltered as you get from an NA or NB Miata, but it doesn't feel as artificial as a number of EPAS cars I've driven.  Not far off what I remember of my old gen1 Mazda3 (which had a hydraulic rack).  I'd like to find an SN95 or '05-'10 Mustang GT and do a back-to-back comparison of steering feel.  I suspect that the latest generation's EPAS is as good or better than the last hydraulic rack.

I'd also point out that if you're using an NA or NB Miata as your meter stick for good steering, you're going to have a hell of a time finding much that will match it among cars both of the same vintage and new.  Even in the days before the proliferation of EPAS, the Miata's steering was among the cream of the crop.  I've driven plenty of hydraulic-assisted cars from the 90s and early '00s that were as devoid of steering feel as a lot of newer, EPAS cars today.

I'm wondering if what a lot of people call steering feel is chassis feel. Civic's chassis is like a wet noodle, so while I do get a lot of feedback through the wheel I almost think I can feel the chassis twist under load too. With the G I pretty much get nothing besides what I can tell from the seat of my pants and the way the wheel loads.

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on May 19, 2017, 12:08:31 PM
I'm wondering if what a lot of people call steering feel is chassis feel. Civic's chassis is like a wet noodle, so while I do get a lot of feedback through the wheel I almost think I can feel the chassis twist under load too. With the G I pretty much get nothing besides what I can tell from the seat of my pants and the way the wheel loads.

Maybe.  But there are definite differences in steering feel.  When you change lanes on the highway, do you feel tugging through the steering as the front wheels pass in and out of grooves on the pavement?  Do you feel the steering wheel go light when the fronts start to lose grip, like if you hit a wet patch or gravel on the road?  That's steering feel.  EPAS systems have gotten better as far as providing a fairly natural-feeling load-up as you turn in, but they often still lack feel or feedback.  I'm convinced the sensation of loading up is just programmed into them, like a force-feedback video game wheel.  When my last Mustang was losing front end grip, I knew through my ass, not the steering wheel, that grip was gone.  And by the time your body senses it, you're firmly past the point of having lost front end grip.  My Jetta's steering loads up as you dial in more steering angle, but it's independent of what's actually happening at the front wheels.  I feel the same thing through the steering wheel whether the front wheels are plowing in terminal understeer on an icy road as if I was carving a sharp turn on dry asphalt.  The feedback actually coming through the steering wheel is minimal or non-existent.

Think of how a go kart's steering behaves, as that is as unfiltered a steering experience as you will find.  It not only loads up as you turn the wheel, but it goes light/limp as the front tires slip into understeer.  It kicks back over imperfections, or if grip is lost and then regained.  You can really feel and therefore balance on the friction limit.  No power-assisted rack will ever be quite that pure, but some are better than others.

Yep. God I would kill for a kart rack in the 86 I drove. Or even an atom or Elise rack. So much information coming through to your hands. It's like your car is communicating with you about everything and makes even a mundane commute fun.


Driving this V6 Camaro is just boring when on the highway. I want to do something other than drive and just get off the road.

The mini, the miata have and I suspect an Elise would keep me involved and interested in a cruise down the highway.

Great handling can only be enjoyed when turning but a great steering rack keeps me invigorated even on a lonely Nevada highway.

Quote from: Rich on May 19, 2017, 01:08:54 PM
Yep. God I would kill for a kart rack in the 86 I drove. Or even an atom or Elise rack. So much information coming through to your hands. It's like your car is communicating with you about everything and makes even a mundane commute fun.


Driving this V6 Camaro is just boring when on the highway. I want to do something other than drive and just get off the road.

The mini, the miata have and I suspect an Elise would keep me involved and interested in a cruise down the highway.

Great handling can only be enjoyed when turning but a great steering rack keeps me invigorated even on a lonely Nevada highway.

Well, the average buyer doesn't want to contend with all of that steering feedback.  Most people don't like to feel tramlining and nibbling through the steering wheel when cruising down the interstate.  They want to be able to cruise along with one hand ever so lightly on the wheel while they sip a coffee or text their friends.  Which is why most mainstream cars, even from the good-old-days of pure hydraulic assisted racks, had most of the steering feel dialed out. 

And the truth is, a car that is darty on the highway, prone to bump steer, tramlining, or otherwise requires a fair bit of driver input just to keep it going in a straight line isn't necessarily a good thing, either.  It's significantly more fatiguing over longer drives.  I wouldn't really equate that with steering feel either, as a vehicle with numb steering and a bad alignment will do that too.

My Mustang tramlined quite a bit but the steering did not have the feedback the Miata does.

Quote from: Rich on May 19, 2017, 02:11:00 PM
My Mustang tramlined quite a bit but the steering did not have the feedback the Miata does.

Yeah, but Mustangs have never had much steering feel or feedback, even back when they had hydraulic assist.

Not sure what it is about Miatas that lends to their steering feel.  I'm sure light weight is a big part of the equation (mass is very good at damping thing out).  I also wonder how much tire diameter plays into it.  Front tire diameter on a newer Mustang is over 4.25" larger than that of an NA or NB Miata.  Couple of inches bigger than a 1st generation Cooper S or Elise as well.  More rotating mass in the tire, and larger moment of inertia...

Our VW has great steering. Can be a bit sloppy due to being hella old, but replacing all the bushings turns it into something amazing. I attribute it to light weight, lack of overboosted assist, and skinny, short tires.

Its def nice to have a choice to dial back feedback for the daily grind or long trip. Fatigue management is key.