Quote from: GoCougs on September 22, 2017, 10:54:58 PM
Meh, I don't think I've ever seen a fantastic factory paint job. It seems even the most expensive cars have a least a bit of orange peel. Those processes are designed to be "barely good enough" yet quick.

A good (about matches factory quality) aftermarket paint job is gonna cost - figure ~$5,000, and that's without fixing door dings and the like.

A good aftermarket painter can easily exceed a factory paint job, but it takes inordinate amounts of prep and wet sanding between coats and the like. But then you're looking at like $7,500 or more, and that's if you don't change color (i.e., not painting the engine bay, trunk, door jambs, etc.).

+1

Not that this should be a discussion in this thread. Never worth it to change the paint on a DD.

I stand by my statement that the X3 and co is just as banal as the CR-V.



The X3, XC60, and GLK are faster and quieter, but they're also a lot more expensive. CR-Vs are very nice, and the gap between luxury cars and regular cars is much smaller these days.

lol an aftermarket color change is entirely out of the question.  Good aftermatket paint jobs are expensive AF.

Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on September 22, 2017, 04:08:07 PM

Lady Lebowski isn't on this thread. And if I know anything about women you have to do some "reading between the lines" to figure what they really want. Women who always say exactly what they want don't exist or are men. Would she be delighted to find a "surprise" by Lebowski of a nicer car than expected? Who knows? Maybe. If she's like 99.99% of women in the world, yes.

I don't understand your aversion to nice things.

Of course she (and I) likes nice stuff.  Of course she'd like an X5, a Range Rover, an XC90 etc.  But she's not that into cars, and there's other things in life that are more important to her/us.  She'd be a lot happier if I surprised her with a trip somewhere than a nicer car.

I don't have an aversion to nice stuff, but I recognize that beyond a certain point nicer stuff does not improve your quality of life, and I've bought enough nice stuff to have experienced this first hand.  Again, hedonistic treadmill, read up on it if you're interested.

Believe me, we're not exactly living like monks, we have a plenty comfortable life, live in a nice house in a nice neighborhood with more than enough "nice stuff", kids get everything they need etc.  But we've pretty much reached the point where I don't aspire to further nicer or more "stuff" (still have plenty of goals and aspirations, they just aren't defined by drive such and such car, have a certain watch etc).

Plus, go test drive some of the newer mainstramers - you might be surprised how "nice" they are.

Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on September 22, 2017, 06:41:17 PM

It is not worth it to you. It certainly is for all the people who buy them. WTF with the universal statements.

Is it really though?

We talked about in the Enthusiast thread, the average person is not that interested in cars. Certainly the average person is not an enthusiast, and on a scale 1-10 the consensus seemed to be the average persons interest in cars is maybe a 2 or a 3.

I don't know about you, but I see an awful lot of very high end cars on the road around here. Lots of land rovers, lots of XC60s and XC90s, lots of bmw, Mercedes etc. A good deal of Cayennes and Macans too, and no small number of 911s. Either the average person is a hell of a lot more interested in cars than we give them credit for here, or there are a lot of people with enough money that the purchase makes sense regardless of interest, mathematically I don't see how the latter is possible as if you're not super into cars these are IMO at least top 1%er (on income) or maybe top 3-4%er (on net worth) types of purchase, and probably more than that.

I think it could be argued the vast majority of people driving high end cars would objectively be better served by a mainstreamer.  The exceptions are either very very interested in cars or have so much money that it doesn't matter. I feel like the proportion of both of those groups are far smaller than the proportion of high end car buyers.


The average XC60 buyer isn't buying it because it's objectively "worth it" vs a CRV (which has very good seats btw), they buy it because the average buyer has a single digit savings rate, buys "as much car as I can afford" to go with their "as much house as I can afford," and views car ownership as a perpetual monthly payment.

Quote from: Lebowski on September 23, 2017, 07:54:51 AM

Of course she (and I) likes nice stuff.  Of course she'd like an X5, a Range Rover, an XC90 etc.  But she's not that into cars, and there's other things in life that are more important to her/us.  She'd be a lot happier if I surprised her with a trip somewhere than a nicer car.

I don't have an aversion to nice stuff, but I recognize that beyond a certain point nicer stuff does not improve your quality of life, and I've bought enough nice stuff to have experienced this first hand.  Again, hedonistic treadmill, read up on it if you're interested.

Believe me, we're not exactly living like monks, we have a plenty comfortable life, live in a nice house in a nice neighborhood with more than enough "nice stuff", kids get everything they need etc.

Plus, go test drive some of the newer mainstramers - you might be surprised how "nice" they are.

I would only question how comfortable the seats in the CR-V are. 

My wife and I have both driven Escapes for a number of years; sometimes on fairly long trips.  I thought the comfort level of the seat was okay, even though I would emerge with a rather stiff back after a couple of hours or so and have to stretch for a little while to get comfortable again.  Having had our Discovery Sport for almost a year now, I realize that it's a world of difference.  I feel rather cosseted by the seat and emerge without being stooped over for a period of time.  The difference in more upscale comfort is certainly noticeable.

However, seeing that your partner is a yoga instructor, it may not be a problem for her, but I just thought it may be worth mentioning.  Of course if/when she gets pregnant again, it may well be important to her.

The plan is this is our last child.


Seats in CRV are pretty damn good. Personally I've never been as prone to seat comfort issues as some seem to be - even the Corvette, long drives didn't bother me from a back or comfort perspective.  She's never complained about the 4Runner seats, she had a Rogue when we met and I don't think she had complaints WRT seat comfort w/ that either. 

I'm just not convinced that preferring a Range Rover to a CR-V signals an interest in cars. Preferring a t-bone steak to stew meat doesn't make someone a food expert, just someone with functioning taste buds.

Quote from: CaminoRacer on September 23, 2017, 12:40:05 AM
+1

Not that this should be a discussion in this thread. Never worth it to change the paint on a DD.

What about a wrap?

Quote from: Lebowski on September 23, 2017, 08:31:30 AM
The plan is this is our last child.


Seats in CRV are pretty damn good. Personally I've never been as prone to seat comfort issues as some seem to be - even the Corvette, long drives didn't bother me from a back or comfort perspective.  She's never complained about the 4Runner seats, she had a Rogue when we met and I don't think she had complaints WRT seat comfort w/ that either. 

Just thought I'd mention it.  Seems she has a fairly long drive.  CR-V seats may well be more comfortable than an Escape, but you may also think about seat upgrade if it's available.  Back problems start happening after 40.

Being a yoga instructor probably pushes the back pain horizon out a few decades.

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on September 23, 2017, 08:43:24 AM

I'm just not convinced that preferring a Range Rover to a CR-V signals an interest in cars. Preferring a t-bone steak to stew meat doesn't make someone a food expert, just someone with functioning taste buds.

Did you just compare my beloved CRV to stew meat?

Quote from: Lebowski on September 23, 2017, 09:15:27 AM

Did you just compare my beloved CRV to stew meat?

Stew meat is important. IMO a good beef stew is better than a t-bone steak, even if it isn't as sexy.

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on September 23, 2017, 08:43:24 AM
I'm just not convinced that preferring a Range Rover to a CR-V signals an interest in cars. Preferring a t-bone steak to stew meat doesn't make someone a food expert, just someone with functioning taste buds.

So obsessed with metrics all of a sudden. Yes, you can have money and spend it on cars and be interested in cars, as well as any combination of those factors. Shit, some of the biggest car enthusiasts in the world can't even drive yet.

Quote from: Laconian on September 23, 2017, 09:02:21 AM
Being a yoga instructor probably pushes the back pain horizon out a few decades.

Absolutely.

Apologies if suggested/dismissed before but Hyundai Santa Fe Sport? That's come up on my radar: not too big, decent looking, lots of goodies for the money. I spoke to a guy here who loves his: it's his second; the first one was in a T-bone rollover crash (rolled twice), which he & his wife walked away from. They went straight out & bought another.

Quote from: Raza  on September 23, 2017, 09:40:42 AM
So obsessed with metrics all of a sudden. Yes, you can have money and spend it on cars and be interested in cars, as well as any combination of those factors. Shit, some of the biggest car enthusiasts in the world can't even drive yet.

What metrics were mentioned in that post? I think you meant to quote something else.

Yes, spending money on cars can be a result of interest in them, but that's not necessarily 1:1. Just because someone drives an expensive car doesn't mean they are into them- case in point Lebowski right now.

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on September 22, 2017, 07:46:20 PM
I didn't say the XC60 isn't nicer. Just not twice as nice. The incremental cost is not worth it.

And if we are going to talk about generalizations I'd think your dismissal of women's ability to make decisions would be a better place to start.

The XC60 is nicer to you because it has a better badge. Objectively, especially in the context of Lady Lebowski's started wants and needs, there's nothing better about it.

I think you're getting a little bit excited here. I did not dismiss women's capacity to make decisions. But women are different than men and communicate differently as well. If you don't understand that, my condolences.

I do like the XC60's badge better than the CR-V's. But to say that's all I care about is dismissive and probably more aligned to what you tell yourself when you see a nicer car drive by.

Quote from: Lebowski on September 23, 2017, 07:54:51 AM

Of course she (and I) likes nice stuff.  Of course she'd like an X5, a Range Rover, an XC90 etc.  But she's not that into cars, and there's other things in life that are more important to her/us.  She'd be a lot happier if I surprised her with a trip somewhere than a nicer car.

I don't have an aversion to nice stuff, but I recognize that beyond a certain point nicer stuff does not improve your quality of life, and I've bought enough nice stuff to have experienced this first hand.  Again, hedonistic treadmill, read up on it if you're interested.

Believe me, we're not exactly living like monks, we have a plenty comfortable life, live in a nice house in a nice neighborhood with more than enough "nice stuff", kids get everything they need etc.  But we've pretty much reached the point where I don't aspire to further nicer or more "stuff" (still have plenty of goals and aspirations, they just aren't defined by drive such and such car, have a certain watch etc).

Plus, go test drive some of the newer mainstramers - you might be surprised how "nice" they are.

I have no beef with you and my "like nice stuff" comment was directed at sporty's "obsession with luxury" comment before. I know you like nice stuff and even better, experiences (travel).

I only brought the XC60 back in because I do think it is a nicer place to spend time in on a long commute like your wife has. Probably not worth it to her but I'd take her to a test drive. Then she´ll know for sure. After all, she will be spending a huge amount of time in that car.

I'll also happily take your advice about testing mainstreamers. I like testing cars and maybe I'll be surprised.

Quote from: Lebowski on September 23, 2017, 08:07:39 AM

Is it really though?

We talked about in the Enthusiast thread, the average person is not that interested in cars. Certainly the average person is not an enthusiast, and on a scale 1-10 the consensus seemed to be the average persons interest in cars is maybe a 2 or a 3.

I don't know about you, but I see an awful lot of very high end cars on the road around here. Lots of land rovers, lots of XC60s and XC90s, lots of bmw, Mercedes etc. A good deal of Cayennes and Macans too, and no small number of 911s. Either the average person is a hell of a lot more interested in cars than we give them credit for here, or there are a lot of people with enough money that the purchase makes sense regardless of interest, mathematically I don't see how the latter is possible as if you're not super into cars these are IMO at least top 1%er (on income) or maybe top 3-4%er (on net worth) types of purchase, and probably more than that.

I think it could be argued the vast majority of people driving high end cars would objectively be better served by a mainstreamer.  The exceptions are either very very interested in cars or have so much money that it doesn't matter. I feel like the proportion of both of those groups are far smaller than the proportion of high end car buyers.


The average XC60 buyer isn't buying it because it's objectively "worth it" vs a CRV (which has very good seats btw), they buy it because the average buyer has a single digit savings rate, buys "as much car as I can afford" to go with their "as much house as I can afford," and views car ownership as a perpetual monthly payment.

Whether things we spend money on are worth it or not is entirely subjective. There is no such thing as "objectively better". By the simple act of buying something people vote with their wallets as to what anything is worth to them. Be it the badge, the quality, the speed or whatever - in the end it is entirely subjective.

Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on September 23, 2017, 11:43:27 AM
I think you're getting a little bit excited here. I did not dismiss women's capacity to make decisions. But women are different than men and communicate differently as well. If you don't understand that, my condolences.

I do like the XC60's badge better than the CR-V's. But to say that's all I care about is dismissive and probably more aligned to what you tell yourself when you see a nicer car drive by.

OK, you dismissed women's ability to clearly communicate their wants and needs. Again I'm still waiting to hear what Lady Lebowski told you that contradicts what she has told Lebowski. I would think if she wanted a luxury vehicle she wouldn't waste their time looking at CR-Vs and Highlanders.

If there are things beyond the badge that make the XC60 nicer to you I'd love to hear them. If the badges and prices were switched I think you would be pushing for the CR-V. At the end of the day part of the car buying decision process is subjective, even for people who don't care much at all about cars. But you seem to be suggesting Lebowski prioritize your subjective wants ahead of his objective needs. Again I have to ask what is so awful about the CR-V and so great about luxury crossovers, both in general and specific to Lebowski's parameters.... it's been nearly 3 weeks and you haven't made a convincing argument yet.

A loaded Highlander is pretty damned nice, and now with 295 hp and 8AT, it's been elevated. This is another vehicle that keeps ze German and American automakers up at night.

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on September 23, 2017, 11:51:08 AM
OK, you dismissed women's ability to clearly communicate their wants and needs. Again I'm still waiting to hear what Lady Lebowski told you that contradicts what she has told Lebowski. I would think if she wanted a luxury vehicle she wouldn't waste their time looking at CR-Vs and Highlanders.

Wow, you're the one assuming the failure in communication is the woman's fault. It's a challenge in communication between the sexes. All good marriages solve this problem, but it is a challenge. A challenge that sustains an entire industry of books and therapies.

Ms Lebowski hasn't had a luxury vehicle before. We can gather that from the story. They're looking at a car where she'll spend a lot of time. I'd simply float the option to her. If she's not interested, cool. Lebowski came here to talk about their decision after all. So there is a bit of curiosity about what we have to say.

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on September 23, 2017, 11:51:08 AM
If there are things beyond the badge that make the XC60 nicer to you I'd love to hear them. If the badges and prices were switched I think you would be pushing for the CR-V. At the end of the day part of the car buying decision process is subjective, even for people who don't care much at all about cars. But you seem to be suggesting Lebowski prioritize your subjective wants ahead of his objective needs. Again I have to ask what is so awful about the CR-V and so great about luxury crossovers, both in general and specific to Lebowski's parameters.... it's been nearly 3 weeks and you haven't made a convincing argument yet.

What part of me finding the XC60's interior and safety features are better did you miss? And I admit I like the badge better. So?

This is a car forum. I enjoy discussing this with Lebowski. Who cares if I "win" or not? It's the back and forth that's enjoyable.

And what about you? If we're analyzing I'd say that you're thrilled to get company in the "luxury is not worth it" camp. So you are in the "luxury is not worth it" camp and I am in the "luxury can be worth it" camp. What's your problem, man?

We're waiting for the new Highlander to come out in 2020 I think, and the wife will probably get one then.

Quote from: Morris Minor on September 23, 2017, 10:49:37 AM
Apologies if suggested/dismissed before but Hyundai Santa Fe Sport? That's come up on my radar: not too big, decent looking, lots of goodies for the money. I spoke to a guy here who loves his: it's his second; the first one was in a T-bone rollover crash (rolled twice), which he & his wife walked away from. They went straight out & bought another.

It's more of an Edge competitor than the CR-V, though not really any roomier on the inside and (at last check) more expensive. It definitely feels like a higher tier of vehicle, though.

Quote from: Lebowski on September 23, 2017, 07:25:05 AM
lol an aftermarket color change is entirely out of the question.  Good aftermatket paint jobs are expensive AF.

LOL I was halfway trolling but my standards are much lower than most of y'all apparently- to me a $1000 paint job into a color I like would be preferable over a color I hated.

But then when I shop for cars it's mostly just the value for money and little to do with color.

FWIW, my Miata was originally white but original owner painted it red after an accident, and it had (an originally) green trunk- also painted red after another rear accident. I thought the car looked decent.

Not perfect by a long shot, but still. (scroll to the bottom here  https://www.flickr.com/photos/13591918@N07/page4 )

And LOL the minivan in the neighbor's driveway (From 2012 Miata shot) is the same as I have now.

A $1,000 paint job won't get you through one winter in a snowy state before it starts deteriorating.  I hope you understand this.  Clearly you don't.

Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on September 23, 2017, 12:02:18 PM
Wow, you're the one assuming the failure in communication is the woman's fault. It's a challenge in communication between the sexes. All good marriages solve this problem, but it is a challenge. A challenge that sustains an entire industry of books and therapies.

Ms Lebowski hasn't had a luxury vehicle before. We can gather that from the story. They're looking at a car where she'll spend a lot of time. I'd simply float the option to her. If she's not interested, cool. Lebowski came here to talk about their decision after all. So there is a bit of curiosity about what we have to say.

What part of me finding the XC60's interior and safety features are better did you miss? And I admit I like the badge better. So?

This is a car forum. I enjoy discussing this with Lebowski. Who cares if I "win" or not? It's the back and forth that's enjoyable.

And what about you? If we're analyzing I'd say that you're thrilled to get company in the "luxury is not worth it" camp. So you are in the "luxury is not worth it" camp and I am in the "luxury can be worth it" camp. What's your problem, man?

The flip side of that coin is that once you have accustomed your wife to a certain level of luxury, is that it is damn near impossible to go back down later.

My wife cares very little about cars. We have been holding a bit back concerning nice cars, and she is delighted to drive around in the Bolt, which isn't exactly a luxury vehicle. However, if she were accustomed to f. ex MB, a brand she "likes", I think it would be pretty hard to have her accept a "lesser" car down the road.

That being said, the brand new XC60 is a hell of a vehicle and pretty much top of the class, imo. If I were shopping in that category, I would do a test drive - but maybe without the wife

Mainstreamers have come a long way. My wife likes the MKX and did not like the Edge. But I would bet she would like a current top of the like CR-V or something of the sort with the fake stitched leather dashes and all that. Luxury is constantly being democratized. I could definitely do a mainstreamer after the G- but it would have to be perfectly specced- like a GTI with the LSD.

Quote from: Morris Minor on September 23, 2017, 10:49:37 AM

Apologies if suggested/dismissed before but Hyundai Santa Fe Sport? That's come up on my radar: not too big, decent looking, lots of goodies for the money. I spoke to a guy here who loves his: it's his second; the first one was in a T-bone rollover crash (rolled twice), which he & his wife walked away from. They went straight out & bought another.

I've looked at them online, haven't looked in person. Hyundai and Kia as well have come a long way, styling isn't too bad either.

$1000 car paintjob?

😧