Most of this poor decision making by Tesla has to do with Musk himself.  I think it's a very top down organization and he does a lot of stupid stuff like the rear doors on the Tesla SUV which caused huge quality problems, delayed the SUV, and drove up costs. 

I heard an interview where he took credit for the single screen with everything design of the model 3 and was adamant no separate speedometer would be included. 

No radio capability on launch is super lame.  Most millennials don't have a lot of money and won't be able to afford a model 3.  My dad who is 74 put a down payment on one.  He can't even download audiobooks on a flash drive to play in his Chevy Equinox (which didn't come with a CD player).  I kept trying to teach him but he's an old stubborn codger.  This is a guy who learned engineering in college using a slide rule.

Cool car no doubt.  I don't look at the speedometer much while driving. But I adjust the ambient temperature constantly and won't tolerate going through a bunch of submenus to do that.  No thanks.

Quote from: r0tor on September 29, 2017, 11:05:11 AM
All this rage should have been directed at all auto manufacturers over the last 5 year - not just Tesla.

My 2011 Grand Cherokee has a physical button for the seat heaters.  The new models have the seat heaters controls buried 3 sub menus into the infotainment screen.  WTF?  I probably use that function way more then the wipers on a daily basis.

If it's like the other current Chryslers, you can set the seat heaters to be a "favorite" on your homescreen. Physical buttons would still be better, though, I agree.

Quote from: 93JC on September 29, 2017, 11:47:28 AM
If any other manufacturer on earth offered FM radio support as an "adaptive upgrade" they'd be raked over the coals for it, hard. What you call "an adaptive upgrade" I call "a half-baked product". The fact that they can 'upgrade' the car to support FM radio means the car has an FM antenna and the requisite demodulator circuitry already onboard, it's just inaccessible to the software on the dash-iPad. It's a deliberately gimped product!

Nah, why wouldn't they just use a webtuner? And again, the exciting bit here isn't the radio itself but all the future improvements that will be released down the road.

QuoteI'd wager a huge majority of North Americans still listen to broadcast radio. I listen to it every day: it serves as my alarm on my clock-radio, I listen to news as I get ready for work, and if I drove to the office I'll listen to AM talk radio on the way home for traffic reports.

Radio is still going strong, especially compared to print and cable television.

However, 30-40% of listeners are tuning in digitally, up from essentially 0% ten years ago. The analog broadcast tech is patently obsolete and on its way out the door, as it requires enormous capital expense and provides limited reach.

Web tuner has the same problem as playing music on Spotify.

And why would I listen to the radio when I can pull up a playlist on Spotify? To me, the point of FM is that it doesn't require a data connection. It's effortless music for when I'm too lazy to choose my own tunes.

Quote from: MX793 on September 29, 2017, 10:54:45 AM
There are large areas in this country that have little/no cell coverage.  If they do, it's talk/text only, no 3/4G data.

Not anymore especially along major highways. Any given FM station tops out at 40-60 miles.

Quote from: CaminoRacer on September 30, 2017, 01:20:38 PM
Web tuner has the same problem as playing music on Spotify.

And why would I listen to the radio when I can pull up a playlist on Spotify? To me, the point of FM is that it doesn't require a data connection. It's effortless music for when I'm too lazy to choose my own tunes.

What is wrong with needing a data connection? Five to ten years ago when the networks were spotty, speeds were slow, and they charged you outrageous fees, sure. But now the devices are lightening fast with huge memories, coverage is increasing by the minute, and carriers are switching to unlimited data plans.

I can click on a 6 hour podcast and have it completely downloaded before the light turns green.  I drive a lot of rural roads for work, stream audio almost exclusively, and rarely does my data connection (or lack thereof) interfere with my enjoyment of the stereo. It's not like FM/AM/XM never cut out or are issue-free themselves. I can't even listen to an FM station for much longer than 30 minutes before it disappears.

Quote from: Tave on September 30, 2017, 01:24:15 PM
Not anymore

lol Come to the UP.  If you have TMobile or Sprint, you'll get literally nothing.  Even Verizon and AT&T are spotty/nonexistent in fairly large areas here, but you'll still get that FM.

Which also brings up the whole idea that cars will one day be connected and talking and monitored. Bullshit, I can drive 6 miles from my house and not even be able to make a phone call...how's my car supposed to talk to the Mothership?

Quote from: giant_mtb on September 30, 2017, 01:34:04 PM
lol Come to the UP.  If you have TMobile or Sprint, you'll get nothing.  Even Verizon and AT&T are spotty/nonexistent in fairly large areas here, but you'll still get that FM.

Lol @ thinking the UP is representative of the rest of the country, even other rural parts. Every rule has its exceptions.

You think I don't understand spotty cell coverage growing up in Wyoming?

Quote from: Tave on September 30, 2017, 01:38:17 PM
Lol @ thinking the UP is representative of the rest of the country, even other rural parts. Every rule has its exceptions.

You think I don't understand spotty cell coverage growing up in Wyoming?

Sorry, dude, just going by your own statement.

When did I say the UP was representative of anything?  Chill. jfc, you get so mad when you're wrong.

Quote from: giant_mtb on September 30, 2017, 01:40:30 PM
Sorry, dude, just going by your own statement.

When did I say the UP was representative of anything?  Chill. jfc, you get so mad when you're wrong.

The contention was relative, I never said every last square foot of dirt has service. I was also singling-out "major highways" which you cut out of the quote.

Not mad in the slightest, and on the flip side, I could point you towards many areas in the Rockies that have cell service, almost no FM channels, and horrible quality (though some good distance) on the AM bands.

Quote from: Tave on September 30, 2017, 01:24:15 PM
Not anymore especially along major highways. Any given FM station tops out at 40-60 miles.

There are large swaths in Upstate NY with no data coverage and marginal voice coverage.  I was at a co-worker's camp for a cook-out a few weeks ago, roughly 40 miles north of Syracuse and maybe 4 miles from the interstate.  I had marginal coverage (1-2 bars of 3G, Verizon has the best coverage in Upstate by far).  Others with other carriers barely had voice coverage and no data at all.  No problem getting a radio station, though.  Wasn't like this was a hilly or mountainous region where you'd have dead spots due to being in a valley, either.

Quote from: Tave on September 30, 2017, 01:48:20 PM
The contention was relative, I never said every last square foot of dirt has service.

Not mad in the slightest, and on the flip side, I could point you towards many areas in the Rockies that have cell service, almost no FM channels, and horrible quality (though some good distance) on the AM bands.

I don't care.  I didn't say that dead spots for AM/FM radio don't exist.

Quote from: MX793 on September 30, 2017, 01:49:00 PM
There are large swaths in Upstate NY with no data coverage and marginal voice coverage.  I was at a co-worker's camp for a cook-out a few weeks ago, roughly 40 miles north of Syracuse and maybe 4 miles from the interstate.  I had marginal coverage (1-2 bars of 3G, Verizon has the best coverage in Upstate by far).  Others with other carriers barely had voice coverage and no data at all.  No problem getting a radio station, though.  Wasn't like this was a hilly or mountainous region where you'd have dead spots due to being in a valley, either.

I'm a little confused by this post and don't understand what a camp in the woods has to do with major highways and driving audio. Nevertheless it sounds like you actually had coverage, and would probably agree that it will only get better in the near future. Meanwhile most people have solid coverage, even though you don't need a continuous connection to stream a lot of content.

Coverage is getting pretty good everywhere, especially on our major roads.

No-way! There are cabins up on the Canadian border miles away from the interstates where I only get 2 bars!

There are parts of I71 in Ohio where I don't have coverage.

Quote from: giant_mtb on September 30, 2017, 01:53:17 PM
I don't care.  I didn't say that dead spots for AM/FM radio don't exist.

If your point is it's not a practical design for you personally given the dearth of good cell service in the UP at this moment, I agree. To that I'd add the extreme cold weather you experience, snowfall, and lack of charging infrastructure, which I would say are even bigger question marks and not specific to your region.

But that's a separate question from whether the Tesla has any value to people who do have the infrastructure to support it, and whether the tech is forward-looking.

Quote from: Tave on September 30, 2017, 02:27:32 PM
Coverage is getting pretty good everywhere, especially on our major roads.

No-way! There are cabins up on the Canadian border miles away from the interstates where I only get 2 bars!

I wasn't remotely near the Canadian border.  Nor was it a remote cabin in the woods with no one around.  It was in a small hamlet within walking distance of a major interstate that is actually a very bustling tourist destination during salmon fishing season.  There aren't many interstates in Upstate.  Want to visit the Finger Lakes for a wine tour or to catch a Grand Prix at Watkins Glen?  You're not going to be on an interstate to get there and there are large pockets with little to no coverage.  Baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown?  Again, you're not taking an interstate there.

Quote from: 2o6 on September 30, 2017, 02:42:01 PM
There are parts of I71 in Ohio where I don't have coverage.

That doesn't surprise me. But again, it's getting better all the time, and you don't need an unbroken connection to stream audio like you do a radio.

Y'all are arguing for the 8-track here. Internet radio allows broadcasters to cover the entire globe at almost zero cost to themselves. There is no comparison between it and the analog model, which is now half-dead in only 10 years.

Quote from: MX793 on September 30, 2017, 02:54:57 PM
I wasn't remotely near the Canadian border.  Nor was it a remote cabin in the woods with no one around.  It was in a small hamlet within walking distance of a major interstate that is actually a very bustling tourist destination during salmon fishing season.  There aren't many interstates in Upstate.  Want to visit the Finger Lakes for a wine tour or to catch a Grand Prix at Watkins Glen?  You're not going to be on an interstate to get there and there are large pockets with little to no coverage.  Baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown?  Again, you're not taking an interstate there.

Do you think service there, or technology generally, will never improve?

That's simply untrue, though.


There's also parts of 70, 75, and 94 that don't have coverage.


Whenever I drive to DC, there's a solid 30 minutes where I drive thru western Maryland (Cumberland), I have no service. No streaming. Really only just talk and SMS. Parts of it I don't have either

Do you guys think radio stations want to continue investing billions into capital assets and network rights negotiations, when they can operate and grow their business for the cost of a web server?

Quote from: 2o6 on September 30, 2017, 03:08:27 PM
That's simply untrue, though.


There's also parts of 70, 75, and 94 that don't have coverage.


Whenever I drive to DC, there's a solid 30 minutes where I drive thru western Maryland (Cumberland), I have no service. No streaming. Really only just talk and SMS. Parts of it I don't have either

What's not true, that it's getting better all the time?

Those roads used to have NO coverage whatsoever, now they have some dead spots. By definition it's getting better and more universal.

There's a robustness that analog frequencies have that cell and digital ones don't.



Puerto Rico, for example.

Point is, it costs practically nothing to include an FM antenna. Literally a piece of wire is sufficient. Tesla (and Apple) are falling in love with pushing "the future" onto customers, when the past/present is actually more reliable and practical. I love technology, but it has to prove its worth.

Quote from: Tave on September 30, 2017, 03:09:29 PM
Do you guys think radio stations want to continue investing billions into capital assets and network rights negotiations, when they can operate and grow their business for the cost of a web server?

Do you not think that audio online streaming services aren't rife with many of the same legality issues that plague analog radio?

Quote from: CaminoRacer on September 30, 2017, 03:17:19 PM
Point is, it costs practically nothing to include an FM antenna. Literally a piece of wire is sufficient. Tesla (and Apple) are falling in love with pushing "the future" onto customers, when the past/present is actually more reliable and practical. I love technology, but it has to prove its worth.

Also this. It costs nothing to include both.

Like any technology, there is a time when it's right to start phasing out the old and pushing towards the new.  The wireless data network is not widespread nor robust enough yet to fully abandon analog radio in favor of streaming.  Then again, the average EV owner isn't going to be far from a major population center for lack of a rapid charging station, so for cars like these maybe it doesn't matter.

Quote from: MX793 on September 30, 2017, 03:23:05 PM
Like any technology, there is a time when it's right to start phasing out the old and pushing towards the new.  The wireless data network is not widespread nor robust enough yet to fully abandon analog radio in favor of streaming.  Then again, the average EV owner isn't going to be far from a major population center for lack of a rapid charging station, so for cars like these maybe it doesn't matter.

True.

I should say, I don't have an antenna in my car anymore. I took off the stock one because it's ugly and replaced it with a hidden one that didn't work as well as I would have liked. But I'd love to have FM radio again if I could find a workable solution.

Quote from: 2o6 on September 30, 2017, 03:16:40 PM
There's a robustness that analog frequencies have that cell and digital ones don't.



Puerto Rico, for example.

FM radio stations cost millions and have an effective range of 40-60 miles. AM does better but the sound quality is fairly wretched. They aren't going to be able to compete with modern telecommunications and the web, which is why, again, that internet radio has stolen almost half the listeners in a blink of an eye.

Quote from: 2o6 on September 30, 2017, 03:19:39 PM

Do you not think that audio online streaming services aren't rife with many of the same legality issues that plague analog radio?

I'm not talking about licensing fees.

To operate a radio station, you have to spend an ungodly amount of money building it. And if you want to broadcast further than 60 miles, you have to spend an ungodly amount of money building additional sites, or spend an ungodly amount of money negotiating the right to piggyback off other's sites. Collectively, the network represents an enormous cost to the industry.

Internet radio stations can broadcast to the entire globe for essentially free, leveraging existing tech that is already paid for. There is no comparison between those cost models. It's why we've seen internet radio take 30-40% of analog radio's market in relatively no time at all.