Quote from: CaminoRacer on March 18, 2018, 12:55:28 AM
Yeah, if you suck at driving on country roads and go into a ditch. But I don't think I've ever seen a sedan rolled over on the freeway, whereas I've seen 4 SUV/CUVs rolled in the past month or so.

I watched a dude roll his Accord on the freeway, getting a bit sideways to avoid someone doing something stupid. All it takes is catching the edge of the pavement/pothole or jersey barrier to flip a car truck or SUV. The point is, in actual numbers, cars outnumber CUV rollovers by over double. And in either case, the numbers are simple: .0001% of vehicles roll over. It's pretty easy to be in the 99.9999% that don't roll regardless of kind of vehicle you're in. Avoiding a vehicle because you think your chances are high that you'll flip over means you suck at driving and math.

Quote from: 68_427 on March 18, 2018, 10:03:25 AM
They've made some decent improvement.  The Navigator is a legitimate luxury player, and dealers can't keep $100k Black Label trims on the lot

They need a SWB 2 row Navigator

Quote from: ChrisV on March 18, 2018, 02:09:19 PM
I watched a dude roll his Accord on the freeway, getting a bit sideways to avoid someone doing something stupid. All it takes is catching the edge of the pavement/pothole or jersey barrier to flip a car truck or SUV. The point is, in actual numbers, cars outnumber CUV rollovers by over double. And in either case, the numbers are simple: .0001% of vehicles roll over. It's pretty easy to be in the 99.9999% that don't roll regardless of kind of vehicle you're in. Avoiding a vehicle because you think your chances are high that you'll flip over means you suck at driving and math.

Okay.

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on March 18, 2018, 05:22:23 PM
They need a SWB 2 row Navigator

You mean like the Aviator (which was an utter flop)?

Quote from: MX793 on March 18, 2018, 08:30:37 PM
You mean like the Aviator (which was an utter flop)?

No!That was really a fancy Explorer. More like the First two generations of the Gator (And the SWB Escalade) before it got stretched.......

And a Navigator is just really a fancy Expedition...

I read somewhere that a new Aviator is in the pipeline.

I wonder if any aviators will buy one

Quote from: MX793 on March 18, 2018, 08:30:37 PM
You mean like the Aviator (which was an utter flop)?

The Navigator wasn't doing too well at that time either. Lincoln in general was in a bad place. Now there's clear interest in the Navigator again, but not everyone wants an 18 foot long SUV.

Quote from: Gotta-Qik-C6 on March 18, 2018, 08:37:24 PM
No!That was really a fancy Explorer. More like the First two generations of the Gator (And the SWB Escalade) before it got stretched.......

Exactly. Though looking at the specs, this Navigator is only 4" longer than the old one. But I don't know that I believe it. IT looks a lot bigger. I'm wondering if some of these dimensions are wrong. A few days ago I parked next to a ~2000 Tahoe, and I swear it was the same length as my car, even though specs say it's like a foot longer.

In any case the next Exploder is gonna be RWD based and will have a Lincoln version. It sounds like they are keeping the MKX as well. Lot of Lincoln trucks. Long overdue

The hood height and beltline have gone up on all trucks. By the numbers, its only a couple of inches, but visually it makes an impact.

Quote from: Soup DeVille on March 19, 2018, 10:12:30 AM
The hood height and beltline have gone up on all trucks. By the numbers, its only a couple of inches, but visually it makes an impact.

I was right next to a new Highlander the other day and the hood was MASSIVE. I think the top of the hood was at my eyeline in my Mazda6.

I think the SUV flipping tendency has largely been mitigated by stability control, better engineering, and better tires.  They're still more apt to flip over but the flip tendency of early Explorers with worn Firestone tires and early Cherokees is much improved. 

A head on car collision on a two lane road between a heavy SUV and light compact, the occupants in the SUV will likely fare better just based on vehicle mass.

Kid driving too fast on a windy wet road and doesn't know they should aim straight for the deer rather than swerve to avoid it, they're better off in a sedan rather than in a Jeep.

As a teenager and in my early 20s, I had a couple real close calls.  In a Taurus I slid down a football field's length down an embankment from a highway onramp  and came to a stop after hitting a tree.  In a Dodge Daytona on a busy four lane road during morning rush hour  I did a 180 and ended up in the opposite lane.  In both cases I had either mismatched or badly worn tires (or both) and no stability control.

I try to change my tires now before they look like they need to be changed.  I can feel the difference in the wet. 

People are also more acclimated to driving vehicles with high centers of gravity.  Before the Explorer, there was the GMC Jimmy, and a handful of full-size pickup derived offerings from Chevy, Ford and (Dodge?).  And many SUV's today aren't really SUV's...they're closer to raised wagons that have lower centers of gravity than say, a 92' Blazer.

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on March 19, 2018, 03:21:07 AM
The Navigator wasn't doing too well at that time either. Lincoln in general was in a bad place. Now there's clear interest in the Navigator again, but not everyone wants an 18 foot long SUV.
Exactly. Though looking at the specs, this Navigator is only 4" longer than the old one. But I don't know that I believe it. IT looks a lot bigger. I'm wondering if some of these dimensions are wrong. A few days ago I parked next to a ~2000 Tahoe, and I swear it was the same length as my car, even though specs say it's like a foot longer.

In any case the next Exploder is gonna be RWD based and will have a Lincoln version. It sounds like they are keeping the MKX as well. Lot of Lincoln trucks. Long overdue

The new Navigator is huge.  It looks just as big as the old Excursion.  I'm not sure if there are optical illusions at play, but it's a monster of a vehicle.  Much more imposing than say, the Escalade.

Quote from: Submariner on March 19, 2018, 12:37:42 PM
People are also more acclimated to driving vehicles with high centers of gravity.  Before the Explorer, there was the GMC Jimmy, and a handful of full-size pickup derived offerings from Chevy, Ford and (Dodge?).

Chevy K5 Blazer, Chevy S-10 Blazer, GMC K5 Jimmy, GMC S-15 Jimmy, Chevy/GMC Suburban, Dodge Ramcharger, Dodge Raider, Plymouth Trailduster, Toyota 4Runner, Nissan Pathfinder, Jeep (Grand) Wagoneer, Jeep Cherokee, Jeep CJ, Jeep Wrangler, Isuzu Trooper, Isuzu Rodeo, Suzuki Samurai, International Scout, International Travelall, and... you know... the Ford Bronco and Bronco II...

LOL My dad bought a Cherokee a few years back- it was like 20yrs old but low mileage and still good condition. The sun visor had a HUGE WARNING about the high center of gravity.

Quote from: 93JC on March 19, 2018, 01:39:10 PM
Chevy K5 Blazer, Chevy S-10 Blazer, GMC K5 Jimmy, GMC S-15 Jimmy, Chevy/GMC Suburban, Dodge Ramcharger, Dodge Raider, Plymouth Trailduster, Toyota 4Runner, Nissan Pathfinder, Jeep (Grand) Wagoneer, Jeep Cherokee, Jeep CJ, Jeep Wrangler, Isuzu Trooper, Isuzu Rodeo, Suzuki Samurai, International Scout, International Travelall, and... you know... the Ford Bronco and Bronco II...

Oh boy do I stand corrected.

What I should have said was, these vehicles simply weren't as popular for the average consumer as they are today.

Quote from: Submariner on March 19, 2018, 12:38:53 PM
The new Navigator is huge.  It looks just as big as the old Excursion.  I'm not sure if there are optical illusions at play, but it's a monster of a vehicle.  Much more imposing than say, the Escalade.

The OG Navi looked like a blown up wagon by comparison. An odd juxtaposition. In any case, we will see what Ford does.

I think midsize crossovers are an untapped avenue for the second and third tier luxury brands to grab market share. 3 series customers are 3 series customers... as long as BMW keeps subsidizing leases you will need the jaws of life to pry them out of their dealerships. But I think there are a lot of customers who want something luxurious and somewhat utilitarian that isn't a full size pickup. Sounds like opportunity

Quote from: Submariner on March 19, 2018, 12:37:42 PM
People are also more acclimated to driving vehicles with high centers of gravity.  Before the Explorer, there was the GMC Jimmy, and a handful of full-size pickup derived offerings from Chevy, Ford and (Dodge?).  And many SUV's today aren't really SUV's...they're closer to raised wagons that have lower centers of gravity than say, a 92' Blazer.

They also have suspensions much better sorted to highway use.

Quote from: Soup DeVille on March 19, 2018, 02:54:41 PM
They also have suspensions much better sorted to highway use.

Yeah! Those old trucks would get outta sorts much quicker than these tall wagons!

Quote from: AutobahnSHO on March 19, 2018, 01:50:53 PM
LOL My dad bought a Cherokee a few years back- it was like 20yrs old but low mileage and still good condition. The sun visor had a HUGE WARNING about the high center of gravity.

Basically all SUVs and trucks had this warning back in the 90s.  GM stopped putting them in beginning in the early 2000s.  It's nothing out of the ordinary.  You can put "CAUTION: HOT" on as many cups as you want, but people are still idiots.

I sold a 2008 Saturn VUE that had that warning on the sun visor

Quote from: 2o6 on March 19, 2018, 07:13:13 PM
I sold a 2008 Saturn VUE that had that warning on the sun visor

I think my Taco has one, but it might just be an airbag warning...can't remember.

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on March 15, 2018, 10:31:29 AM
You are right that they are not competitors. For the same money the Continental is more roomy, powerful, refined and better equipped. That it fails while the Benz is the benchmark speaks to the irrationality of the luxury market. The Lincoln is the better car, drive wheels be damned. The best selling luxury midsizer is the Lexus ES.

The Continental is bigger, but it's absolutely nothing like a Mercedes to drive, or in the cabin. An E-Class can dazzle, and the Continental is more like "yeah, pretty nice."

My 4Runner has that warning