Next Jaguar F-Type could get BMW V-8, 2+2 layout

The next Jaguar F-Type may have to hide a German accent. According to a Car report from Monday, Jaguar will source the next sports car's engine from BMW.

Specifically, the publication reports a 4.4-liter twin-turbo V-8 engine is on deck for the next F-Type. BMW offers its 4.4-liter V-8 with 456 horsepower in the 2019 X5 and up to 600 hp in the F90 M5. In the M5, BMW squeezes out 553 pound-feet of torque as well. The M5 figures eclipse the output of the current line-topping F-Type SVR, which makes 575 hp and 516 lb-ft of torque. The BMW engine would put a nail in the coffin of the 5.0-liter supercharged V-8 engine Jaguar currently uses, which has roots stretching back to Jaguar's days under Ford ownership, and offer better fuel economy.

Car reports the next F-Type's new heart will be placed in a slightly reimagined F-Type, too. While the current car is a two-seater, the next model will reportedly move to a 2+2 configuration. The extra seats will help the F-Type more closely rival the Porsche 911 instead of the lesser 718 Boxster and Cayman sports cars.

Sources add that the car will ride on an even lighter aluminum architecture and both a coupe and soft-top convertible will stick around. As for moving to a mid-engine layout, those whispers reportedly don't refer to the F-Type, but a potential different sports car from Jaguar. Color us intrigued.

Jaguar's product chief, Hanno Kirner, previously hinted at a family of sports cars. Rumors have pegged a potential successor to the XK grand tourer, but it sounds like a mid-engine car could take priority. As for thoughts on an electric F-Type, Jaguar is looking at the possibility, but such a derivative wouldn't come until 2023 at the earliest, according to the Car report.


Link: https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1119314_next-jaguar-f-type-could-get-bmw-v-8-22-layout

This is good news. BMW drivetrains are far superior to Jaguar's.

Yawn.  That engine has never sounded exciting

Quote from: 68_427 on October 19, 2018, 10:15:59 AM
Yawn.  That engine has never sounded exciting

Jags are all about sound, max hp doesn't matter.

Shoulda' used a Voodoo.

As long as Jag gets to spec their own exhaust they can do a good job. BMW exhausts are too conservative but I think that aspect would be under Jag's control.

Knowing Jaguar, its super duper light aluminium chassis will weigh like 500 lbs more than its next heaviest competitor.

Quote from: FoMoJo on October 19, 2018, 10:29:51 AM
Shoulda' used a Voodoo.

Probably not - GM LS/LT motors are vastly more popular with the big hp/little English car crowd (sorry, couldn't resist ):

Plus the Voodoo, beyond its size/weight, is, with its ultra peaky power band, not a great choice for a heavy car, and the F-type, at least in its current V8/AWD guise, tips the scales at ~4,000 lbs...

Quote from: GoCougs on October 19, 2018, 11:00:06 PM
Probably not - GM LS/LT motors are vastly more popular with the big hp/little English car crowd (sorry, couldn't resist ):

Low budget kit cars .

Some of those AC Cobras are not allowed to drive in Germany anymore thanks to the hysteria here about emissions - despite them being considered classic cars. I heard this during my last shoot with Octane Magazine Germany. It's not something that's being widely publicized here but it's apparently happening.

And for some fucked-up reason the god damn retarded Green Party of Germany is gaining more and more popularity here. That political party will be the death of the German car industry (and industry in general). Fuck them. 

Quote from: cawimmer430 on October 20, 2018, 11:03:15 AM
Some of those AC Cobras are not allowed to drive in Germany anymore thanks to the hysteria here about emissions - despite them being considered classic cars. I heard this during my last shoot with Octane Magazine Germany. It's not something that's being widely publicized here but it's apparently happening.

If you see a Cobra the chances are it is not one of the classic ones.

The original 900 or so Cobras built are, of course, classic cars, that can drive with an H license plate, even in green sticker zones. The problem is primarily the 1990s Cobras were they used unused 1960 parts (with a Chassis number) and sold quasi new cars with 1960s emissions. People registered those with H plates. That worked for a while, probably because the regulatory agencies did not even realize they were basically new cars.  That only affects a few cars though.

I lost track of what happened with the Cobras built after that, the company has changed hands so many times. I would assume the current Cobra replicas meet Euro 6dtemp since they use Corvette drive trains.

Quote from: FoMoJo on October 20, 2018, 09:32:51 AM
Low budget kit cars .

Not quite . The first two are Superformance models, and they retail for ~$100k+ new. I don't know anything about the third, but judging by the body/paint work, it's pretty legit. However, just logically speaking, the original Cobra was by definition a low budget kit car - a cheap, no frills car with an engine transplant. They're worth a boat load of $$$ now, but not because they were expensive to build. But either way, those cars pictured, and those below, have big $$$ invested; i.e., kit cars, but not "low budget" by any definition. In this day and age, if a well-healed hotrodder wants modern drivability in such a car, the GM LS/LT motor is the first choice; small, light, powerful, simple, plentiful. I dare say the LT1/LS7 would be a better fit for the new F-type than BMW's over-complicated and ho-hum sounding turbo V8, but as we know with these things, Jaguar is making this a business decision, not a performance/heritage/experience decision.

A suitable engine for a Cobra replica...



Or even a 289 out of the scrap yard would be a better choice than one of those LS/LT thingies.  Paying 100 grand for something that has no association with anything other than misplaced loyalty is simply foolish. 

I know that it's rather unfortunate for GM/Chevy fans not to have any real racing heritage/history going back to the 'Golden Era', but to try and encroach onto what Ford and Shelby accomplished back then is just plain sad.  Better Chevy fans should stick with this...



It didn't amount to much back in the day, overheating, that sort of thing but, at least it was authentic.

Quote from: Galaxy on October 20, 2018, 11:56:50 AM
If you see a Cobra the chances are it is not one of the classic ones.

The original 900 or so Cobras built are, of course, classic cars, that can drive with an H license plate, even in green sticker zones. The problem is primarily the 1990s Cobras were they used unused 1960 parts (with a Chassis number) and sold quasi new cars with 1960s emissions. People registered those with H plates. That worked for a while, probably because the regulatory agencies did not even realize they were basically new cars.  That only affects a few cars though.

I lost track of what happened with the Cobras built after that, the company has changed hands so many times. I would assume the current Cobra replicas meet Euro 6dtemp since they use Corvette drive trains.

Ah, so it basically applies to kit cars? Well that puts me at ease - a little. Given how anti-automobile the majority of Germans seem to be at the moment (especially the idiotic Greens), this kind of news scares me.

Quote from: FoMoJo on October 20, 2018, 01:29:18 PM
A suitable engine for a Cobra replica...

{snip}

Or even a 289 out of the scrap yard would be a better choice than one of those LS/LT thingies.  Paying 100 grand for something that has no association with anything other than misplaced loyalty is simply foolish. 

I know that it's rather unfortunate for GM/Chevy fans not to have any real racing heritage/history going back to the 'Golden Era', but to try and encroach onto what Ford and Shelby accomplished back then is just plain sad.  Better Chevy fans should stick with this...

{snip}

It didn't amount to much back in the day, overheating, that sort of thing but, at least it was authentic.

So it's all Chevy fans "encroaching" on all this automotive history (see below)? I don't see the logic there. Chevy guys aren't dying to buy a Miata or 964 or 240Z or Jeep or Mustang whatever, just to install their motor into it. No, it's mostly Mazda and Porsche and Datsun and Jeep and Ford fans looking for the best motor.

Sure, Ford has suitable pooprod motors (though I'd argue a modern big-inch Windsor is more suitable than an FE or the like), but they are based on a 60-year-old design. Chevy rods, Chevy valves and corresponding electronics and modern heads help, but a Windsor can't match the performance, drivability, availability, utility and flexibility of the modern GM LS/LT.

Precisely 0% of Chevy fans are up to no such funny business. The Corvette has an extremely rich racing history and cultural impact that Ford hasn't ever been able to match. Also don't forget Ford's such racing "history" is based on someone else's car - AC Ace (= Cobra) and Lola Mark 6 (= precursor of the GT40).

The market has spoken WRT engine swaps of resto-mod/replica/kit car/etc. For modern performance, drivability, availability, utility and flexibility, the GM LS/LT is by orders of magnitude, the first choice. Popular swaps:

Well said Cougs.......

Quote from: GoCougs on October 20, 2018, 09:47:45 PM
So it's all Chevy fans "encroaching" on all this automotive history (see below)? I don't see the logic there. Chevy guys aren't dying to buy a Miata or 964 or 240Z or Jeep or Mustang whatever, just to install their motor into it. No, it's mostly Mazda and Porsche and Datsun and Jeep and Ford fans looking for the best motor.

Sure, Ford has suitable pooprod motors (though I'd argue a modern big-inch Windsor is more suitable than an FE or the like), but they are based on a 60-year-old design. Chevy rods, Chevy valves and corresponding electronics and modern heads help, but a Windsor can't match the performance, drivability, availability, utility and flexibility of the modern GM LS/LT.

Precisely 0% of Chevy fans are up to no such funny business. The Corvette has an extremely rich racing history and cultural impact that Ford hasn't ever been able to match. Also don't forget Ford's such racing "history" is based on someone else's car - AC Ace (= Cobra) and Lola Mark 6 (= precursor of the GT40).

The market has spoken WRT engine swaps of resto-mod/replica/kit car/etc. For modern performance, drivability, availability, utility and flexibility, the GM LS/LT is by orders of magnitude, the first choice. Popular swaps:

/gigo

You are partly right.  The Windsor small block is, by far, the best choice for a Cobra replica.  After all, a Ford Windsor K-code with minor Shelby mods did win the 1965 World GT championship in a Peter Brock designed Shelby Daytona Coupe against the best that Europe had to offer, including Ferrari.  The 427 FE is really too much motor and a bit of overkill; though it did retain the title of 'the fastest production car in the world' for some time.  The problem was, you could easily kill yourself if you didn't have race driver skills.

Designed as a mid size racing motor to compete against the Chrysler and Chevy big block offerings in NASCAR, usually dominating them, the 427 FE was, however, compact and light enough to fit into many racing car applications of the time; the SOC version was highly sought after by racing teams in unlimited classes.  "Scarce as hen's teeth" was the common phase for those seeking to acquire one.

As for Corvette racing history during the 'Golden Era', they did okay against the likes of Jaguar and a few others who ventured over from Europe; until the Cobra showed up.  And yes, it is what was known as a 'hybrid' at the time.  North America simply did not have a chassis that could be adapted as a true production/race car.  The AC Ace was an excellent fit for the purpose; being a tube frame design.  The small block Windsor, being a lighter and more compact design than the GM small block, as well as the gargantuan effort from Chrysler, it was the perfect fit.  Along with the fact that with such an over square bore and stroke compared to equivalent displacement engines, it could rev higher thus produce more horsepower; given proper breathing.

Of course, Chevy fans are free to put their LT/LS motors in pretty much anything they want.  Why someone would put one in a Porsche is beyond me though.  The balance of a Porsche is fragile at the best of times and to put a lump of anything other than the designated engine in one is a recipe for disaster.  Guys do crazy things though.  Those who are real car aficionados though, and appreciate the historical significance of legendary classics, would no more put a Chevy engine in a Cobra replica than they would put a Hemi in a classic Corvette. 

I'd research that history a little more .

Prior to the Cobra, Shelby wasn't a Ford guy. He was a race guy, and pretty much with European cars. For the Cobra project he originally wanted the Chevy small block, as in the early '60s, it was in a state of tune (1961: 315 hp 283, 1962: 340 hp 327) that neither Ford nor Chrysler could come close to matching. Ford had just debuted the Windsor in 221 and 260 guise, but both were anemic low performance models, and the hi-po Chrysler LA (340) was years away. Naturally, Chevy wanted to protect its interests (Corvette) and said "no" to Shelby. In short, Shelby had no choice but to use the Windsor but his first (and logical) choice was the Chevy small block.

The 911/LS swap is easy to see IMO. I probably wouldn't do it, but vs. the original motor, the LS is lighter, more powerful, more durable and probably much cheaper (including retrofit) vs. rebuilding or sourcing a replacement Porsche motor. Sure the V8 has a higher CG than a boxer six, but given the lighter weight, it's probably a wash on the effect on handling. One thing for sure, if the swap wasn't a good thing to do, it wouldn't exist in such volume.

As to Hemis in Corvettes? Oh, yes, lots of those!

Quote from: GoCougs on October 21, 2018, 08:08:31 PM
I'd research that history a little more .

Prior to the Cobra, Shelby wasn't a Ford guy. He was a race guy, and pretty much with European cars. For the Cobra project he originally wanted the Chevy small block, as in the early '60s, it was in a state of tune (1961: 315 hp 283, 1962: 340 hp 327) that neither Ford nor Chrysler could come close to matching. Ford had just debuted the Windsor in 221 and 260 guise, but both were anemic low performance models, and the hi-po Chrysler LA (340) was years away. Naturally, Chevy wanted to protect its interests (Corvette) and said "no" to Shelby. In short, Shelby had no choice but to use the Windsor but his first (and logical) choice was the Chevy small block.

The 911/LS swap is easy to see IMO. I probably wouldn't do it, but vs. the original motor, the LS is lighter, more powerful, more durable and probably much cheaper (including retrofit) vs. rebuilding or sourcing a replacement Porsche motor. Sure the V8 has a higher CG than a boxer six, but given the lighter weight, it's probably a wash on the effect on handling. One thing for sure, if the swap wasn't a good thing to do, it wouldn't exist in such volume.

Yes, the history is quite interesting, if we stick to the facts.

We know that Shelby was the ultimate car guy, a racer at heart, such as it was.  However, he soon learned that racing wasn't in the cards for him; barreling down the Mulsanne Straight in a Aston Martin DBR1 while having to pop nitroglycerin tablets.  That one of his desires was to beat Enzo Ferrari on his own terms, preferably with a 'made in America' product, in the late '50s he had combined with a couple of local Texas Chevy Dealerships to take a handful of 59 Corvette chassis and have them rebodied by the Scaglietti design house.  Beautiful cars, but rather lacking in any real racing history...



Though GM seemed to like the idea, the top execs were dead set against being involved in motor sports at that time, so being the entrepreneur that he was, he moved on to another venture.  Having been in the Euro racing scene for some time, he was aware of the AC Ace with its tubular frame and aluminium sheet metal.  Light weight and ridged and ideal for racing.  As AC was rather short of engine options at the time, the Bristol was no longer available and they were using a Ford Zephyr engine.  AC agreed to make Shelby an ACE modified for a V8 engine.  Having been turned down by GM for engines he checked out Chrysler, too big and then he went to Ford. 

As fortune would have it, Ford had just developed their small block 221 CI Windsor engine, a light weight, thin wall, compact design and gave Shelby a couple of them.  The first modified chassis from AC was shipped to Shelby in LA and with some further modifications, the first Cobra was cobbled together with the now 260 CI Windsor and was ready for testing.  Not an instant success, further modifications using a variety of available components were made in order to complete the project.  The Mark I was now ready and production began using, initially, the 260 Windsor and then the 289 Windsor when it became available. The Mark II, with additional modifications, came a bit later.  Further racing models, using a 390 FE were developed, but were unsuccessful due to lack of development time.  Finally, a new chassis was designed, in cooperation with Ford to accommodate the 427 FE and a new legend, the Mark III, was born.  It's worth noting that AC continued to produce the new chassis but using the 289 Windsor engine for the European market.

In the meantime, GM had seen the success that Ford had with its partnership with Shelby and the Cobra, and decided to try and get back in the game hence, the Cheetah was born...



Essentially, it was a conglomeration of GM parts, including a 327 Corvette engine, with a chassis and shell designed and built by Bill Thomas who tuned and modified Corvettes for racing with his fabricator, Don Edmunds, and support from GM Performance Group.  The plan was to have a production and racing version for promotion and marketing.  Unfortunately, the chassis was unable to cope with the stresses of racing and the design was such, that the driver was being slowly roasted in the cockpit.  There was also an attempt to build a Super-Cheetah to compete in Le Mans, having learned from the mistakes of the original, but it was never completed as GM withdrew its support.