The renaissance of the Inline 6

Started by Galaxy, May 05, 2019, 01:44:42 AM

12,000 RPM

Quote from: r0tor on May 09, 2019, 01:40:43 PM
Mazda has run out of growth potential with generic 4 fwd 4 cylinders
A couple of people on the internet saying "that would be cool id buy one" is not meaningful growth potential
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

Morris Minor

Quote from: 93JC on May 05, 2019, 08:57:22 AM


Australian Chryslers had their own six-cylinder Hemi engines. (Totally unrelated to the Slant-Six.)
The Jag XK6 engine was hemi.

There's so much creamy goodness in inline sixes - hard to beat for smoothness & inherent balance.
⏤  '10 G37 | '21 CX-5 GT Reserve  ⏤
''Simplicity is Complexity Resolved'' - Constantin Brâncuși

MexicoCityM3

Mazda in some ways is the "new BMW" because of their focus on driving joy. This will only make it truer.

We´ll see but it sounds very promising.
Founder, BMW Car Club de México
http://bmwclub.org.mx
'05 M3 E46 6SPD Mystic Blue
'08 M5 E60 SMG  Space Grey
'11 1M E82 6SPD Sapphire Black
'16 GT4 (1/3rd Share lol)
'18 M3 CS
'16 X5 5.0i (Wife)
'14 MINI Cooper Countryman S Automatic (For Sale)

Xer0

Unfortunately, BMW is in someways the new Mercedes with their focus on luxury  :lol:

MexicoCityM3

Quote from: Xer0 on May 10, 2019, 09:28:56 AM
Unfortunately, BMW is in someways the new Mercedes with their focus on luxury  :lol:

I won't disagree with that. Other than full M cars and very few regular models (2 series).
Founder, BMW Car Club de México
http://bmwclub.org.mx
'05 M3 E46 6SPD Mystic Blue
'08 M5 E60 SMG  Space Grey
'11 1M E82 6SPD Sapphire Black
'16 GT4 (1/3rd Share lol)
'18 M3 CS
'16 X5 5.0i (Wife)
'14 MINI Cooper Countryman S Automatic (For Sale)

Soup DeVille

Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

Eye of the Tiger

2024 Mitsubishi Mirage ES

CaminoRacer

Quote from: Soup DeVille on May 10, 2019, 09:45:16 AM
So Mercedes is the new..?

Best interior manufacturer?
Affordable Rolls Royce?
BMW Luxury +1?
1969 El Camino, 2017 Bolt EV, 2021 Tesla Model 3 Performance

Laconian

Kia EV6 GT-Line / MX-5 RF 6MT

HurricaneSteve

Volume is a different story but I think Mazda's cars are already up to Acura's levels, if not higher, sans the NSX.

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on May 10, 2019, 05:26:16 AM
A couple of people on the internet saying "that would be cool id buy one" is not meaningful growth potential

12,000 RPM

Quote from: HurricaneSteve on May 10, 2019, 01:29:05 PM
Volume is a different story but I think Mazda's cars are already up to Acura's levels, if not higher, sans the NSX.
Oh for sure. As far as a combo of form and function go I'd say Mazda is the best in the business. Everyone else either has interiors that work but are ugly, or interiors that are better looking with awful functionality. (Sometimes both... for more money :mask: ) And that actually matters to customers, unlike cylinder count or drive wheels.
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

CALL_911

If this happened, this would be the first non-Porsche premium product in a while (since the announcement of the M2) to excite me. I'd buy one (but I suspect few others would).

I keep comparing this and the Stinger/Genesis and the fact that Mazda makes it gives me a lot of hope for its real-world performance.


2004 S2000
2016 340xi

HurricaneSteve

I also believe that their quality control would exceed that of Kia/Hyundai. Infiniti was on their way to becoming a reliable alternative to the old BMW but fell off the wagon along the way. Perhaps Mazda can pick up where they left off.

Quote from: CALL_911 on May 10, 2019, 02:07:37 PM
If this happened, this would be the first non-Porsche premium product in a while (since the announcement of the M2) to excite me. I'd buy one (but I suspect few others would).

I keep comparing this and the Stinger/Genesis and the fact that Mazda makes it gives me a lot of hope for its real-world performance.

Laconian

#73
What's wrong with the Stinger and Genesis? Aren't they supposed to be great cars?

Infiniti's turned into a broken record with VQ engines and the FM platform. They provided tremendous performance and value when they were new, but it seems like their R&D dollars are being frittered away on nonsense. Steer by wire? Ferrrrrrrrrrrt! Variable compression engines? Ferrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrt!
Kia EV6 GT-Line / MX-5 RF 6MT

r0tor

Quote from: Laconian on May 10, 2019, 09:45:40 PM
What's wrong with the Stinger and Genesis? Aren't they supposed to be great cars?



They are only 3/4 baked
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

Eye of the Tiger

2024 Mitsubishi Mirage ES

12,000 RPM

Quote from: Laconian on May 10, 2019, 09:45:40 PM
What's wrong with the Stinger and Genesis? Aren't they supposed to be great cars?

Infiniti's turned into a broken record with VQ engines and the FM platform. They provided tremendous performance and value when they were new, but it seems like their R&D dollars are being frittered away on nonsense. Steer by wire? Ferrrrrrrrrrrt! Variable compression engines? Ferrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrt!
The stick in the Genesis is bad and only available with mealy 4 popper

V6T is OK but w/e.

VQ is dead, VR twin turbo is the move now. Not sure what people want from Infiniti mechanically. Cadillac and Jaguar focused on dynamics... look what it got em. BMW.... Beee Em Double You.... can't sell a stickshift 3 series in the US. Truthfully all the Q50 needs is a better transmission, some weight savings and an improved infotainment system.
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

MX793

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on May 11, 2019, 10:03:41 AM
The stick in the Genesis is bad and only available with mealy 4 popper

V6T is OK but w/e.

VQ is dead, VR twin turbo is the move now. Not sure what people want from Infiniti mechanically. Cadillac and Jaguar focused on dynamics... look what it got em. BMW.... Beee Em Double You.... can't sell a stickshift 3 series in the US. Truthfully all the Q50 needs is a better transmission, some weight savings and an improved infotainment system.

The notion that stick-shift 3ers don't sell is bullshit.  Sales data showed that the number of 3ers equipped with MTs sold in the US was relatively constant from the E30 up through the E9x generation, if not slightly increasing.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

12,000 RPM

Quote from: MX793 on May 11, 2019, 12:01:30 PM
The notion that stick-shift 3ers don't sell is bullshit.  Sales data showed that the number of 3ers equipped with MTs sold in the US was relatively constant from the E30 up through the E9x generation, if not slightly increasing.
Back when the E9x was still on sale new 9 years ago you could get a stick from pretty much all its competitors. You could also get a 6 pot with 3 pedals and 4 doors from a wide range of mainstream manufacturers. Shit's changed
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

MX793

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on May 11, 2019, 02:54:08 PM
Back when the E9x was still on sale new 9 years ago you could get a stick from pretty much all its competitors. You could also get a 6 pot with 3 pedals and 4 doors from a wide range of mainstream manufacturers. Shit's changed

So MT sales vanished the instant the F generation 3er showed up?  Don't think so.  Number of manuals held constant.  Number of total 3ers sold went up as BMW chased sales volume.  Those new buyers largely preferred autos, so percentage of MTs fell.  BMW went from targeting enthusiasts, connoisseurs, and drivers to poseurs and badge snobs.  Ultimate Driving Machine to Ultimate Marketing Machine.  Interestingly, BMW officially dumped their Ultimate Driving Machine slogan in 2013, same time the F20 came out.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

12,000 RPM

Quote from: MX793 on May 11, 2019, 03:13:46 PM
So MT sales vanished the instant the F generation 3er showed up?  Don't think so.  Number of manuals held constant.  Number of total 3ers sold went up as BMW chased sales volume.  Those new buyers largely preferred autos, so percentage of MTs fell.  BMW went from targeting enthusiasts, connoisseurs, and drivers to poseurs and badge snobs.  Ultimate Driving Machine to Ultimate Marketing Machine.  Interestingly, BMW officially dumped their Ultimate Driving Machine slogan in 2013, same time the F20 came out.
I agree with much of this, but I don't see how dropping a transmission choice makes sense in the context of chasing volume. It's prob a chicken and egg situation but for whatever reason selling sticks in the US was no longer worth it to BMW. Can't say they didn't make a legit effort; 6MT 340i checked off all the boxes.

A big part of the blame goes to dealers... they dictate a lot of what customers buy. But they also know what customers want, and to a large degree 3rd pedals = lot cancer. Why do you think that is?
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

MX793

For "enthusiast" cars, MTs are far from a cancer.  When the Frisbees came out, local dealers here couldn't get them in anything but auto.  Any MT they got was snapped up instantly.  Autos languished on the lots.  An associate who worked for a Scion dealer was bemoaning the sales he lost because Toyota kept forcing them to accept slushies.

BMW has gone after volume, trying to appeal to those who might otherwise buy high end Camcords.  Unthusiasts and status-chasers.  Their volume went up, but the clientele wasn't traditional BMW.  People wanting bigger, softer cars.  Percentage of MTs went down as volume went up.  Beancounters cite the percentage as justification.  Doesn't make sense to certify/federalize a drivetrain that so relatively few opt for.

The other factors at play are fuel economy and emissions.  Automatics can be programmed to be optimized for EPA and similar tests.  More ratios than are practical in an MT, shifts tied directly to engine load and throttle position instead of vehicle speed alone.  GM played games with skip-shift lockouts in their MTs to try to cheat the EPA tests, but if you really want to game the system, you need full control of the variables.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

12,000 RPM

If Ford can keep making the GT350 and Honda can make the CTR then BMW could def have kept making 3 pedal non M 3s

The reality is the demand just dried up. Automatics these days are good enough for even some hardcore cloverleaf carvers. People who still want 3 pedals seem to be willing to give up damn near anything for them.
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

MX793

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on May 12, 2019, 06:36:18 PM
If Ford can keep making the GT350 and Honda can make the CTR then BMW could def have kept making 3 pedal non M 3s

The reality is the demand just dried up. Automatics these days are good enough for even some hardcore cloverleaf carvers. People who still want 3 pedals seem to be willing to give up damn near anything for them.

GT350 doesn't sell in nearly the volume of the 3 series.  The entire Mustang family doesn't sell in the same volume as the 3 series.  Likewise the CTR.  The 3-series is BMWs CamCord.  It's not a niche model.  They need to make sure their volume sellers get the best fuel economy and emit the least CO2/emissions possible because those models have the biggest impact on CAFE and similar fleet averages.  This is why Ford abandoned cars in the American market.  Truck CAFE average is easier to meet, especially with car-based crossovers.  And the CUVs help offset the gas-guzzling F150s for the truck fleet average.  That more and more people were opting for CUVs instead of cars anyway just added further incentive to cut bait and run.  It's not that people weren't still buying cars, it's that it was advantageous, financially, to stop making them.

Additionally, the masses don't buy stick.  So even though the enthusiast crowd who were buying MT 3ers were still buying, the influx of unthusiasts who BMW lured to the brand, the "volume segment", didn't, which diluted the percentage of models sold with a stick.  Beancounters look at percentages, not total sales.  When the percentage dropped below a certain threshold, they killed it.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5