Quote from: r0tor on September 18, 2020, 12:07:24 PM
Manuals are dead and what ones exist are largely trash

Just because you gave up doesn't mean the rest of us have to.

Looks like the concept was pretty much spot on.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/2022-nissan-400z-sports-car-leaked-photos/amp/

Grille looks a bit better with the brightwork.  Definitely in the running as my next car.

Pretty clean looking on the exterior.  Not so sure about the interior.

If it drives anything like the FM platform cars of the past, I can't get too excited about it.

Final reveal for the production version is tonight.  As a Z car fan, I'm tentatively excited.  So few fun, M/T equipped cars that a working class guy like myself could afford these days that I've been losing my enthusiasm for cars.

New Zzzzzz car

Not a terrible effort.  Will test the waters to see if anyone in the US still cares about a moderately priced 2 seater ICE car.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a37304208/2023-nissan-z-revealed/

No slippy diff unless you spring for the Performance model?  This car is way too powerful to have an open diff.  Hope you at least get a Torsen...

Quote from: MX793 on August 17, 2021, 06:44:15 PM
No slippy diff unless you spring for the Performance model?  This car is way too powerful to have an open diff.  Hope you at least get a Torsen...

Maybe base just relies on an E-diff setup and the Performance gets a real LSD?

Quote from: CaminoRacer on August 17, 2021, 07:10:58 PM
Maybe base just relies on an E-diff setup and the Performance gets a real LSD?

E-diff is a more sophisticated and expensive form of real LSD (LSD with electronically controlled clutches).  Doubt base Zs are getting an E-diff while the top dog model gets an traditional LSD.  Unless by "E-diff" you just mean traction control that can't be disabled (a la the Golf GTI), which is a garbage system that only serves to overheat and eat up brakes.

The 90th percentile driver won't notice an lsd vs a brake based system

Quote from: r0tor on August 17, 2021, 07:31:20 PM
The 90th percentile driver won't notice an lsd vs a brake based system

Other than they'll notice their rear brakes burn up fast if they drive in a spirited fashion.

Quote from: MX793 on August 17, 2021, 07:39:27 PM
Other than they'll notice their rear brakes burn up fast if they drive in a spirited fashion.

The ones that drive spirited will order the correct options?

Quote from: r0tor on August 17, 2021, 07:45:55 PM
The ones that drive spirited will order the correct options?

Who buys a 400hp sports car and doesn't "get on it" semi frequently?

The Mustang comes standard with LSD on all trims.  The GR86/BRZ have a Torsen on all trims.  The Z should have a proper LSD as standard (and a Torsen on the Performance oriented model).

Infiniti Q50 RS400 RWD was not available with any sort of LSD, so hold onto yer unagi!

Quote from: MX793 on August 17, 2021, 07:29:12 PM
Unless by "E-diff" you just mean traction control that can't be disabled (a la the Golf GTI), which is a garbage system that only serves to overheat and eat up brakes.

Yeah that's what I meant

Quote from: MX793 on August 17, 2021, 07:49:47 PM
Who buys a 400hp sports car and doesn't "get on it" semi frequently?

The Mustang comes standard with LSD on all trims.  The GR86/BRZ have a Torsen on all trims.  The Z should have a proper LSD as standard (and a Torsen on the Performance oriented model).

It only makes a huge difference if you "get on it" coming out of a corner.... In which case an open diff is more predictable for the average newb driver who will probably have traction and stability control engaged anyway which makes it further a moot point.

400 hp, and a manual. Supra who? Probably 20 grand cheaper too.

My gripes about the differential aside...

The car looks really sharp in blue.  Grille still seems awkward, but the lighter/brighter finish on the mesh elements so they pop more helps.  It looks less like a giant, empty rectangle now.  Curious how a front license plate might be installed.  I don't see where one could be placed that won't either block cooling to the engine/intercooler, brake cooling, or the radar emitter.  I suppose in street use, brake or IC airflow aren't imperative and those of use who take these to a track will have to deal with taking plates on and off.  Seems like only upper trims get the black roof.  Curious what it looks like when it's all one color.  I think the black has a trimming effect that makes the car appear leaner/sleeker.

Interior looks good, but I feel like an oil temp or water temp gauge would have been more useful than a turbo tach, though you get this info in the main instruments (along with diff fluid temp).

I was hoping the full reveal was going to come with some pricing details and more complete info (like weight).

It looks good. Like the GR86 its not really something is on my shortlist but I can see why someone else would want it.

I'd love to be able to drive this back to back with the GR86. Obviously the Z is more powerful but everyone seems to love the way the GR86 handles. It would be interesting to see which is more fun overall.

Quote from: r0tor on August 18, 2021, 05:48:23 AM
It only makes a huge difference if you "get on it" coming out of a corner.... In which case an open diff is more predictable for the average newb driver who will probably have traction and stability control engaged anyway which makes it further a moot point.

This is not correct. An open diff can often lock when turning left (or in any scenario that (roughly) evenly weights the drive tires - more below), which makes it unpredictable. This is why it's so terrible for performance - the lack of traction is secondary. This is one of the reasons moderately powerful vehicles with an open diff have the nannies turned up and are way less defeatable. The Z w/out LSD will suck arse for virtually anyone who drives it. My 99% bet is it will have some sort of LSD however.

Engines typically rotate CW (when standing at the front of the vehicle looking at the crank). As a longitudinal engine torques against the engine mounts under load this unweights the right side of the car (and why open diff burnouts are always the right rear). So, when turning left, the weight on the right rear tire due to body roll is counteracted by the engine torquing, whilst simultaneously unloading the left rear tire. This ultimately results in both drive tires receiving approximately equal weighting, and this is when the open diff will act like an LSD. This phenomenon is whey the countless vids of open-diff cars sliding, drifting and doing donuts are always doing so turning left.


One of countless vids:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rucs1DFAz6k

Quote from: GoCougs on August 18, 2021, 10:34:08 AM
This is not correct. An open diff can often lock when turning left (or in any scenario that (roughly) evenly weights the drive tires - more below), which makes it unpredictable. This is why it's so terrible for performance - the lack of traction is secondary. This is one of the reasons moderately powerful vehicles with an open diff have the nannies turned up and are way less defeatable. The Z w/out LSD will suck arse for virtually anyone who drives it. My 99% bet is it will have some sort of LSD however.

Engines typically rotate CW (when standing at the front of the vehicle looking at the crank). As a longitudinal engine torques against the engine mounts under load this unweights the right side of the car (and why open diff burnouts are always the right rear). So, when turning left, the weight on the right rear tire due to body roll is counteracted by the engine torquing, whilst simultaneously unloading the left rear tire. This ultimately results in both drive tires receiving approximately equal weighting, and this is when the open diff will act like an LSD. This phenomenon is whey the countless vids of open-diff cars sliding, drifting and doing donuts are always doing so turning left.


One of countless vids:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rucs1DFAz6k

Nissan has announced that only the performance trim will get LSD.  This is consistent with the 350Z and 370Z, where only the performance oriented trims received an LSD.  Base and "Touring" trims were open diff on the previous cars.  Hopefully the LSD on the new car is a proper mechanical unit and not the crappy viscous diff of the previous generations.

Quote from: GoCougs on August 18, 2021, 10:34:08 AM
This is not correct. An open diff can often lock when turning left (or in any scenario that (roughly) evenly weights the drive tires - more below), which makes it unpredictable. This is why it's so terrible for performance - the lack of traction is secondary. This is one of the reasons moderately powerful vehicles with an open diff have the nannies turned up and are way less defeatable. The Z w/out LSD will suck arse for virtually anyone who drives it. My 99% bet is it will have some sort of LSD however.

Engines typically rotate CW (when standing at the front of the vehicle looking at the crank). As a longitudinal engine torques against the engine mounts under load this unweights the right side of the car (and why open diff burnouts are always the right rear). So, when turning left, the weight on the right rear tire due to body roll is counteracted by the engine torquing, whilst simultaneously unloading the left rear tire. This ultimately results in both drive tires receiving approximately equal weighting, and this is when the open diff will act like an LSD. This phenomenon is whey the countless vids of open-diff cars sliding, drifting and doing donuts are always doing so turning left.


One of countless vids:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rucs1DFAz6k

Open diff equals predominantly understeer... Of course you can still drift under certain conditions.
LSD or locking diff equals predominantly oversteer...

LSDs can catch an inexperienced driver off guard way more easily then open diff - especially in the wet or snow when cornering.

https://youtu.be/yA6AiyZP3H8

Great Icons video featuring the Z.  Also some good commentary on the status of performance cars in today's world.

The having a kid thing is exactly what happened to me and the z06 isn't ideal anymore.  I fell into the trap of the performance SUV and I gotta tell you that it's such a guilty pleasure.  Ridiculous amounts of fun that I honestly didn't expect.

I don't think that vid was some of Jason's better work.

The Z gets absolutely stomped by the Supra... Maybe I didn't like the vid because it tried so hard to make the Z seem like more than it really is.

Fuck Nissan

There was a lot of extra in the video (hot hatches, economics, SUVs).  I didn't really get the graph, we apparently went from sports cars (50s-60s) to coupes (70s), to hot hatches (80s), and then sedans... what about all the coupes of the 90s?

Quote from: 565 on June 16, 2022, 05:14:24 PM
https://youtu.be/yA6AiyZP3H8

Great Icons video featuring the Z.  Also some good commentary on the status of performance cars in today's world.

The having a kid thing is exactly what happened to me and the z06 isn't ideal anymore.  I fell into the trap of the performance SUV and I gotta tell you that it's such a guilty pleasure.  Ridiculous amounts of fun that I honestly didn't expect.

I think that's a great video—puts into words and visuals some thoughts I've also had about the proliferation of the small SUV over the midsized sedan and gives plenty of eye candy.

Frankly, despite the Z's shortcomings, it's one of the most desirable cars on the market for me today. I am super excited about the Supra getting a manual and even though that's my number one lust item at the moment, I don't think I'd be disappointed one bit by the Z. I mean, Supra and Z—you're looking at the shortlist of new cars I'd like to replace my Z4 with.

On the other hand, many, the WRX and Veloster are unbelievably ugly, aren't they? I think this has to be the worst looking WRX we've ever had.

Camissa's Hagerty videos are pretty great.  It tries a bit too hard to be some epic film though.  Feels like it's an Avengers movie half the time.

800 lbs more than a BRZ.  No thanks.

C&D just tested the new Z: https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a39969206/2023-nissan-z-drive/. In short, a decent performance car, but short of pretty much everything +/- its price point and class.

Nissan just hasn't been able to pull it together since about 2010. CVT is a disaster. The 3.0TT hugely under performs. The GT-R and 370Z languished. T Q was a nothing burger vs. the G (the Q60 is a looker though), the second gen Titan was last in class at debut and the Frontier was only just replaced.

The new Frontier looks pretty sick, but I still wouldn't want one.