Quote from: Laconian on November 30, 2023, 03:31:00 PMSo why are they reinventing that stat?

EV motors spin around 2x faster so therefore they would have 1/2 the torque of an ICE engine with equivalent hp

Quote from: r0tor on November 30, 2023, 06:24:18 AMMy point is really I see all these "eeeevvvveeeess are so fast!" comments. 

My working assumption is most of these comments are from people who traditionally didn't sped a whole lot on a car and never bought a high performance model but then suddenly pluck down $50k on a 400+ hp EV.

Anything with a decent power to weight ratio is going to feel fast and most cars in the $50k range fall into that category if it's ICE or EV.  EVs are a bit faster off the line (but not huge difference compared to a modern turbo engine) and significantly slower for the most part at higher speeds.

EVs are fine for an appliance application.

Definitely not true.  After driving around for a while in the Model Y, I have to recalibrate passing distances for my other vehicles because of how much longer they take.  Though the 114mph trap of the Model Y is the slowest of the fleet, it's got by far the best passing numbers.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a32934240/2020-tesla-model-y-long-range-by-the-numbers/

Long range 50 to 70  2.0 secs


https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a44213462/2023-bmw-x3-m-competition-by-the-numbers/

X3m comp 50 to 70 3.1 sec


https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a37418534/2022-cadillac-ct5-v-blackwing-by-the-numbers/

CT5 V blackwing 6MT 50 to 70 6.2 seconds top gear.  Even with the 10speed auto 50 to 70 doesnt beat the long range model Y at 2.3 seconds.

For shits and giggles
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a39429194/2022-bugatti-chiron-super-sport-by-the-numbers/

Bugatti Chiron supersport 50 to 70  2.3 seconds

Compare that to a lowly Model 3 performance that is only .1 seconds slower in the 5 to 60 street start and blows the Chiron away in the passing tests. For EVs the 0 to 60 and the 5 to 60 are very similar, for ICEs it's very different.  Unless you are launch controlling your Chiron from every light, the EV is going to be right there for a fraction of the price.


https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a36329678/2019-tesla-model-3-performance-by-the-numbers/

In terms of putting your foot down and getting somewhere EVs are in another league. The Model S plaid does those passing tests in like 1 second.  It literally does it in less than half the time of the fastest ICE cars.

Merci for digging up the stats

CT is 800V. Excellent, this bodes well for rapid Supercharging of the EV6.

Quote from: r0tor on November 30, 2023, 03:00:20 PMGM is guilty of the same douchebagrity

From the Hummer EV webpage...

Ugh yeah that is terrible too. My El Camino has 3600 lb-ft!!!   

Quote from: r0tor on November 30, 2023, 01:19:29 PMSo I disagree that battery nearing peak.  Solid state batteries will come out with massive energy density

But that battery development is utterly useless without the charging infrastructure.  A decent EV still takes 3-4kwh/mile regardless of battery tech.  There is still inherently the same amount of minutes charge time per mile required if you have a 100kwh pack or a 300keh pack - so the larger pack you can travel further but then spend 3x longer at the charger.  Therefore really the infrastructure is more important than the battery tech at the moment and to solve that still is a mind-blowing amount of work.

EV trucks are a victim of this.  Yes you can put a battery to travel 300 miles in a Lightening or Cybertruck, but now you are sitting at a charger 2x longer than a crossover EV... and could reach the point where even home charging is not rapid enough to keep up with daily travels.  I know someone trying to use a Lightening for commercial use and had to ditch it because of this.

"They" have been talking SS batteries for years, but no dice yet - still only fit for very small devices. But as you point out, that doesn't solve a lot - if/when SS batteries ever make it, charge times will still be about the same, so in theory, for wide adoption, you'd need 5-10x the number charging stations as gas stations (since it takes 5-10x as long to "fuel" an EV vs. ICEV). Granted, charging stations are vastly cheaper and easier to install but the problems with the infrastructure rollout is the canary in the coal mine WRT wide adoption.

Quote from: 565 on November 30, 2023, 03:50:11 PMDefinitely not true.  After driving around for a while in the Model Y, I have to recalibrate passing distances for my other vehicles because of how much longer they take.  Though the 114mph trap of the Model Y is the slowest of the fleet, it's got by far the best passing numbers.

C&D 50-70mph passing tests should really not be compared between ICE and EVs as it's simply not comparable due to the fact they start accelerating in the highest gear in ICE vehicles.  Manual trans cars aren't even allowed to doenshift.  The Model Y is gear limited to 135-155 depending on model, so a compatible test in say the X3M might be starting in 4th or 5th gear instead of 8th.

Simply put in an EV the test shows the fastest time from 50-70 possible while the ICE tests show the slowest times.

Someone in the real world wanting to pass someone could easily drop a few gears first.  Thas how the test should be done.  The CarWow vid shows an actual test of accelerating from highway speed starting in the correct gear and the difference is negligible.


https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a32018270/how-we-test-cars/


Tesla also likes to boost power for short periods of time under right conditions (full battery, normal batter temps, ect).  You can get a Model X/Y to dyno >500hp for a few seconds to increase the shock effect.... Yet won't make a single lap around a circuit even at rated power

TUNDRA 5.7 4x4 has 15,512 lb-ft of torque at the axles, not including torque converter multiplication.

Quote from: r0tor on November 30, 2023, 06:24:18 AMEVs are a bit faster off the line (but not huge difference compared to a modern turbo engine) and significantly slower for the most part at higher speeds.

LOL

Two EVs blew away the fastest of the fast cars in Car & Driver's 0-150-0mph testing. A cheap Kia EV beat cars costing $15k more.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a45765297/0-150-0-mph-speed-test-2023/

Quote from: AutobahnSHO on November 30, 2023, 04:47:17 PMLOL

Two EVs blew away the fastest of the fast cars in Car & Driver's 0-150-0mph testing. A cheap Kia EV beat cars costing $15k more.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a45765297/0-150-0-mph-speed-test-2023/

They have >1000hp.  They better win the damn races with 2x the power.  CarWow also ran a Tesla Plaid against 1,000 hp tuned ICE cars and suddenly it didn't look so buff.

Look at the Kia EV6 GT in the C&D test.  567ho and it got stomped by a Supra with >100 hp less

Quote from: r0tor on November 30, 2023, 04:31:21 PMC&D 50-70mph passing tests should really not be compared between ICE and EVs as it's simply not comparable due to the fact they start accelerating in the highest gear in ICE vehicles.  Manual trans cars aren't even allowed to doenshift.  The Model Y is gear limited to 135-155 depending on model, so a compatible test in say the X3M might be starting in 4th or 5th gear instead of 8th.

Simply put in an EV the test shows the fastest time from 50-70 possible while the ICE tests show the slowest times.

Someone in the real world wanting to pass someone could easily drop a few gears first.  Thas how the test should be done.

But that's the beauty of EVs.  It's always in the right gear.  You can go from cruising quietly to full brutal acceleration in the blink of an eye.

In terms of real world usable power, it's by far the best of my cars.

Quote from: 565 on November 30, 2023, 05:22:02 PMBut that's the beauty of EVs.  It's always in the right gear.  You can go from cruising quietly to full brutal acceleration in the blink of an eye.

In terms of real world usable power, it's by far the best of my cars.

That of course means that manuals are shit since you actually have to operate the car?  That's a terrible argument.

Quote from: r0tor on November 30, 2023, 05:32:07 PMThat of course means that manuals are shit since you actually have to operate the car?  That's a terrible argument.

Uhhh no one is arguing that.

It's an argument now. Argue.

Quote from: 565 on November 30, 2023, 05:41:46 PMUhhh no one is arguing that.

The simple act of changing gears assures you are always in the right gear

Quote from: r0tor on November 30, 2023, 06:14:04 PMThe simple act of changing gears assures you are always in the right gear

And how long does that take?

Quote from: CaminoRacer on November 30, 2023, 06:40:31 PMAnd how long does that take?

0.0 seconds as you do it ahead of time

Quote from: r0tor on November 30, 2023, 06:45:27 PM0.0 seconds as you do it ahead of time

Okay well next time someone asks me how long it takes to charge an EV, I'm gonna say that

Quote from: CaminoRacer on November 30, 2023, 07:02:13 PMOkay well next time someone asks me how long it takes to charge an EV, I'm gonna say that

Logical if it's something like overnight charging and not costing you time on a commute -shrug-

Quote from: CaminoRacer on November 30, 2023, 07:02:13 PMOkay well next time someone asks me how long it takes to charge an EV, I'm gonna say that

Quote from: 565 on November 30, 2023, 05:22:02 PMIn terms of real world usable power, it's by far the best of my cars.

That's the difference. EVs aren't necessarily faster on a racetrack for a few reasons but they're the king of the street IMO. Bolts are not actually fast cars but it's easy to roast people at a stop light. It helps that they're quiet at full throttle, so people have a harder time realizing that you are using all your HP. If you're full throttle in a V8, everyone knows.

Quote from: 565 on November 30, 2023, 03:50:11 PMDefinitely not true.  After driving around for a while in the Model Y, I have to recalibrate passing distances for my other vehicles because of how much longer they take.  Though the 114mph trap of the Model Y is the slowest of the fleet, it's got by far the best passing numbers.
<snip>

What is even going in the world. Here I am agreeing with (new) BFF r0tor once again. EV daily driving performance is outsized but EV legit performance is indeed rather lackluster.

0-60 and passing times (which are only very approximate due to variances in starting speed (can't ever be exact) and when to start the clock (pedal down vs. downshift started vs. ?) are parlor tricks in the performance world. Sure, they're indicators of response and such in daily driving, but daily driving is not performance driving.

To wit, let's look at the legit performance stats of rolling starts and 0-triple digits. As one can see, The Model Y LR isn't even in the discussion WRT the CT5-V (even with M/T):

Cadillac CT5-V: https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a37418534/2022-cadillac-ct5-v-blackwing-by-the-numbers/
60-100: 4.1 s
60-130: 8.8 s
0-130: 12.4 s

Tesla Model Y LR: https://www.caranddriver.com/tesla/model-y
60-100: 5.5 s
60-130: 14.2 s
0-130: 17.8 s

As I'm sure many are aware, Tesla product has only one gear, and road speed is modulated by electric motor RPM. Works OK overall however a goodly portion of legit performance is negated by not keeping the electric motor in its power band (which tends to be lower down in the RPM range), as does the typical ICEV. Hence, EVs' reputation of over performance on the parlor tricks and under perform on the legit performance stats (the latter of which is typically at higher road speeds where the single speed EV gasses).

Here's a Model 3 Performance dyno run showing peak power at ~55 MPH and then it's all downhill from there. I've superimposed a blue dyno curve of a hypothetical multiple multi-speed ICEV. Note that by ~110 mph the M3P is down ~30% on power yet the ICEV is down ~0%, and by ~150 mph the M3P is down ~50% and the ICEV is down ~0%. This is the how and why EVs gas and my hunch, is the root of r0tor's comment (and mine too of course). Oh and suffice it to say, add a gear or two (*cough* Taycan *cough*) and an EV claws back a goodly portion of its performance potential:

https://youtu.be/L6WDq0V5oBg?si=wo0Ioh0uOsRvz0wf

Gougs and r0tor becoming BFF's might be the best thing of 2023.

I'll remember to take the CT5 the next time I need to pass someone at 130mph

Quote from: SJ_GTI on December 01, 2023, 06:36:25 AMGougs and r0tor becoming BFF's might be the best thing of 2023.

I know, right? I'm so optimistic for 2024.

Quote from: 565 on December 01, 2023, 05:51:34 AMhttps://youtu.be/L6WDq0V5oBg?si=wo0Ioh0uOsRvz0wf

Good production but always a bit hyperbolic that Jason that detracts from the overall intent. Anyway...

Today I learned about the Cybertruck: doesn't look nearly as bad as the prototype (esp. ride height/wheel gaps and wheel backspacing - but still looks bad), 800V main battery architecture, 48V accessories, legit steer-by-wire and legit stainless steel body that delivers on strength/durability.

F-150 Lightning and Hummer EV do indeed look ~70 years older and exactly what you get with design by committee (w/a union and governmental reach-around). Traditional full-size pickup trucks are in general absolutely awful vehicles but that's why WtP love them. Can the Cybertruck change that?

The environmental premise zeitgeist of EVs is eroding, so whether the Cybertruck is any sort of legit answer has probably already been answered (not better, just different, esp. WRT NIMBY environmentalism) but we'll see where it goes!

Marques is a good show & tell guy:

Certainly is different... Just not sure if it's a good different or a Model X different

Also kudos to Jason calling the Hummer EV what it really is - a lazy engineering monstrosity