Another interesting piece of commentary from our own IFCAR on the top-selling cars in North America...

http://www.carspin.net/content/archive/200...mry_success.php

Dan, I'll post a link of this on Autoweek forums, so we get more traffic.

Wow, I'm shocked. Especially considering ifcar's own midsize sedan comparison review placed Accord and Camry 1st and 2nd, respectively. I think ifcar had held these biases as well until he started driving more of their competitors (I recall his original review included "Honda reliability" and "Toyota reliability" as 'pros' in favour of the Camry and Accord, which I... tactfully reminded him... :D ... was incredibly biased, prejudicial and presumptuous).

All-arounders are still comparo-winners, if not the best car for each and every consumer. But in the next IFCAR midsize car comparo (on hold until the 06 Fusion and Impala come out), the new Sonata is almost certainly going to be the first-place vehicle.

And I still stand by my original logic there, and if it were to hijack this thread, it would represent the third (possibly the fourth) time that it has.

One of my relatives from Scotland is visiting Calgary for the next couple weeks, and this is what he drives back home:



Honda Accord Tourer 2.4 i-VTEC Executive. Absolute crying shame we're force-fed this turd instead:

That wagon is really nice.  I've always liked the 90s Accord wagon but this one's even better.

He rented a Buick Allure CX last week. Let's just say it's a pretty big adjustment for him.

His exact words were "Drives like a boat an has no power at'all. You put your foot down,  makes lots of noise, but nothin' 'appens!"

QuoteHe rented a Buick Allure CX last week. Let's just say it's a pretty big adjustment for him.

His exact words were "Drives like a boat an has no power at'all. You put your foot down,  makes lots of noise, but nothin' 'appens!"

Not everyone appreciates the 3800    Does he think his Accord is any quicker??? Maybe to 60, but not much after.

His Accord has a 6-speed manual, so it probably is quicker: to 60 and all speeds afterward.

Damn.

http://forums.autoweek.com/thread.jspa?for...=17927&tstart=0

Ifcar, thats the link if you want to respond to criticism for your article.

Thanks, Dave. :)

QuoteThanks, Dave. :)

No problem. :)  

ifcar, that was sort of a degrading article towards the accord and camry. so what if everyone buys them? Honda and Toyota deserve all the sales. Consumers lost their trust in American brands because of the crapboxes they were producing, while honda and toyota have been making good cars all this while, and now it's been paying off. It'll take a long time before people renew their trust with american brands, and hyundai and kia are still relatively smaller brands, and people just want to stick with brands that make reliable, dependable cars. that's not being stupid in any way.

When you are ready to counter the actual points made in the article let me know.

"But research of the lesser-known midsize alternatives can often reward buyers by meeting their requirements either with an additional benefit (a lower cost being the most typical)."

I think a lot of people look past the purchase price, especially those who have been recently burned by the domestics low resale value.

The Camcord, while more expensive to buy initially, often is the cheapest car in the midsize class to own.  Tough to beat that - good, reliable and the cheapest to own.

Anyway, I like your article.  It shows that the good will Honda and Toyota have earned over the years is paying handsome rewards, in the form of repeat buyers.

Camcord!

Nice.

Well, you know where I stand.  The Camry is garbage (dynamically, of course), the Accord is pretty good,  but uninvolving.  When I shopped Camcord, I bought the slower, slightly more expensive Passat because it handled better and had the most involving drive.

QuoteCamcord!

Nice.

Well, you know where I stand.  The Camry is garbage (dynamically, of course), the Accord is pretty good,  but uninvolving.  When I shopped Camcord, I bought the slower, slightly more expensive Passat because it handled better and had the most involving drive.

I dropped my A4 off for service today and they gave me a FWD A4 automatic as a loaner (I was hoping for an A3, but apparently their whole fleet is FWD A4's  :P ).

Anyway its still a sporty car, even with the 16 inch wheels. At the same time its far more forgiving than my A4 over bumps (especially speed bumps...their are a few where I work where I have to be extremely careful with my A4 or it will hit the bottom). Power is still decent, but not as direct as mine (since I have a 6-speed manual of course).

I can see why you dig the Passat, assuming it drives the same as this A4. I thik I would take a TSX over a FWD A4 or FWD Passat though to be honest. But its close enough that i could see someone else taking the A4 or Passat depending on personal taste.

Sorry for being off-topic Ifcar. I read your article though and thought it was very scary. In other countries it seems like the domestic brands are always given the benefit of the doubt against outside competition. Its the imports that need to be better to get a buyer's attention (even then plenty of buyers will still ignore the imports). Honestly I totally understand that POV.

But to not consider a domestic simply because of its badge? Its...almost insulting to me. By my choice in car you can see I am not some blind domestic fanboy. But I have to admit if a domestic offered a RWD/AWD compact with a 6-speed manual I would be all over it.  

I just can't fathom the mind of a person that will purposefully ignore their own national products. At the risk of sounding like PMC it makes me think they really do take pleasure in the downfall of AMerican industry.    

QuoteSorry for being off-topic Ifcar. I read your article though and thought it was very scary. In other countries it seems like the domestic brands are always given the benefit of the doubt against outside competition. Its the imports that need to be better to get a buyer's attention (even then plenty of buyers will still ignore the imports). Honestly I totally understand that POV.

But to not consider a domestic simply because of its badge? Its...almost insulting to me. By my choice in car you can see I am not some blind domestic fanboy. But I have to admit if a domestic offered a RWD/AWD compact with a 6-speed manual I would be all over it.  

I just can't fathom the mind of a person that will purposefully ignore their own national products. At the risk of sounding like PMC it makes me think they really do take pleasure in the downfall of AMerican industry.  

She doesn't ignore cars like the Malibu for being American, she simply has a deep-rooted Toyota bias that barely even extends to other reputable imports (Honda). It's not anti-American, it's not scary, it's just stupid of people IMO.  

QuoteShe doesn't ignore cars like the Malibu for being American, she simply has a deep-rooted Toyota bias that barely even extends to other reputable imports (Honda). It's not anti-American, it's not scary, it's just stupid of people IMO.

Well I agree it is stupid, but it is anti-American.

If she will never buy an American product because its not made by Toyota, it has the net effect of being "Anti-American."

PS. And I do find that scary, in the long-run. It says that no matter what an American company does, they will never get her business. Now if it was just her I wouldn't care, but I have a feeling that is a common sentiment among the general car-buying public.

Quote

QuoteShe doesn't ignore cars like the Malibu for being American, she simply has a deep-rooted Toyota bias that barely even extends to other reputable imports (Honda). It's not anti-American, it's not scary, it's just stupid of people IMO.

Well I agree it is stupid, but it is anti-American.

If she will never buy an American product because its not made by Toyota, it has the net effect of being "Anti-American."

PS. And I do find that scary, in the long-run. It says that no matter what an American company does, they will never get her business. Now if it was just her I wouldn't care, but I have a feeling that is a common sentiment among the general car-buying public.

If it were just her, an article would not have emerged based on her comments.    

My mom's friend had her minivan hit and totaled recently.  Guess what their first choice in a replacement is?  (there are two good guesses, but only one is right)  

Sienna or Odyssey?

QuoteSienna or Odyssey?

Yup, Odyssey.    

Very good article, I love the style and the general idea. Spot on, except you did make one tiny puncutation error (hopefully I spelled puncutation right ):
"She told me that her Camry had been I pointed out that her own Camry?s transmission had failed at 85,000 miles."
Obviously there needs to be either a comma or a period between "been" and "I",

But, like I said, other than that it was a brilliant article, worthy of any mag. Though, I still think that price will likely win over many of the less biased Camry and Accord owners to the Sonata.  

QuoteVery good article, I love the style and the general idea. Spot on, except you did make one tiny puncutation error (hopefully I spelled puncutation right ):
"She told me that her Camry had been I pointed out that her own Camry?s transmission had failed at 85,000 miles."
Obviously there needs to be either a comma or a period between "been" and "I",

But, like I said, other than that it was a brilliant article, worthy of any mag. Though, I still think that price will likely win over many of the less biased Camry and Accord owners to the Sonata.

Thanks. It's getting a good response over at the GMI forums as well, where I found a thread about it while I was over there about to post it myself. I also posted it myself at The Car Connection forums, Dave posted it on AutoWeek, and Dan posted it at C/D, so we should be getting some new traffic here.

BTW, I noticed the missing period only after it was put up, and I can't modify it once it's online, and I didn't think it was worth troubling Dan over.

And it's "punctuation".    

QuoteVery good article, I love the style and the general idea. Spot on, except you did make one tiny puncutation error (hopefully I spelled puncutation right ):
"She told me that her Camry had been I pointed out that her own Camry?s transmission had failed at 85,000 miles."
Obviously there needs to be either a comma or a period between "been" and "I",

But, like I said, other than that it was a brilliant article, worthy of any mag. Though, I still think that price will likely win over many of the less biased Camry and Accord owners to the Sonata.

Yes, I noticed that mistake too...but overall it was a great article.

Quotein the next IFCAR midsize car comparo (on hold until the 06 Fusion and Impala come out), the new Sonata is almost certainly going to be the first-place vehicle.

Ifcar, you know we'll assume you rigged the results now.  :D  You and that Hyundai bias.  :P  

Theres an irate poster at Autoweek CDNRods--you'll need to respond to that

He told you to dig your head out of the sand

This is what the scientists have to say about this effect in sampling at least.

From Consumer Reports own forums:

"Lyman,

What Francis is talking about, the influence CR has on it's subscribers when they state Hondas and Toyotas are reliable and are typically rated higher than domestics and how it effects their surveys is known in Psychology as "Demand Characteristics."

Essentially, the participants in these surveys are picking up on the clues, findings, biases, etc, from the researcher and in turn are giving back a response the researcher is looking for or found. I admit, this not intentional on CR's part, but it is a real problem in surveys and particularly, one that has for many years been rating the Japanese makes as more reliable and essentially better  than the domestics as has CR. For example, if CR says that a certain car has a coarse, noisy engine it is likely that the person driving that car will pick up on that "problem" where none existed before. A good car that exhibits the same characteristic will go unobserved and unreported, because CR did not report this as an issue. The  bias is found with the participant of the survey and not the researcher.

Other issues with CR's surveys include, Response Rate, what percentage of people are actually responding to the survey.

Lumping a model of all the trim lines  together to get their reliability verdicts. For example, The Saturn Vue has a well below average of predicted reliability. However, the major issue with the Saturn Vue was with the 2002 (and lesser extent the 2003) 2.2 4 cylinder VUE with VTI. The V6 version of the VUE never had the issues that plagued it's 4 cylinder counterpart. An example of this is with the Pontiac Grand Prix which, has a very good reliability verdict, except for the supercharged model. In other words, the same models, especially with different engines and transmissions can exhibit different rates of reliability. But, this seems, with the very rare exception, not to be a concern with CR and therefore different trim lines, one which may be more reliable than another trim line goes unreported.

Defining "serious." Different people have different perceptions of what a serious problem may be with a car.

The Sampling Frame: CR gets it's reliability verdicts from their online and magazine subscribers. First, this will certainly preclude those who are less affluent because, many can't afford a subscription to CR, much less to a computer. It has also been shown, that those people who participate in online surveys tend to be younger, better educated and more affluent. That in itself, suggests, that CR's surveys do not represent the general car poulation at large.

Jeff"