Hardtop or convertible?

[Byteme]

I must say, however, that is a roadster with a wind deflector and a strong heater, you can go down to about 30 degrees without developing pneumonia.  Heated seats help as well.  Leave the windows up.

I had the Boxster out in 27-28F weather the day I after I got it.  Wonderful, early morning driving, post Christmas; no one was out.

Regardless of how effective it is at keeping one comfortable, driving with the top down and the windows up looks really dorky.

One of the nicest drives I ever took was wuith the top down, in winter, just after a night of snow.  Clear blue skies, fresh snow and a drop top, with the heater on full blast.  It doesn't get much better than that.

[BMWDave]

How about both?   Raza is correct, if you put the windows up, it eliminates much of the buffeting, and creates a little cocoon where heat is trapped better. 

[Byteme]

How about both?   Raza is correct, if you put the windows up, it eliminates much of the buffeting, and creates a little cocoon where heat is trapped better. 

Yeah but it looks dorky.   

[ChrisV]

If it's hot outside then pull the shade forward. You can still use it during the cooler months and at night.

You guys sound like a bunch of little girls. "The sunlight is too warm!, the wind messes up my hair!" Feeling the wind, the warmth, the air rush around your body is part of the driving experience. Driving with the windows up feeling nothing is just being isolated.

+1 billion.

I've driven convertibles with the top down in winter with the heater on. I have the sunroof open on the BMW or Range Rover unless temps are below freezing or it's raining.

I prefer a convertible version of a car if available and a sunroof if no convertible. I don't think I'll ever be without a convertible or sunroof car.

[Raza]

Yeah but it looks dorky.   

Well, if you think that looks dorky, I should get a picture of my neighbor's car.  He handed off his A4 1.8T FronTrak convertible off to his high school aged stepson.  The stepson, being a suburban, Jewish, one-acre-plot gangster, tinted the windows, and put chrome rims on it.  Besides the rims looking ridiculous, who gets the windows on a convertible tinted?  Isn't that sort of contrary to the point?  I mean, it's like laying on the beach for a tan (something I have no experience doing mind you) in a jumpsuit and face mask.

[Raza]

+1 billion.

I've driven convertibles with the top down in winter with the heater on. I have the sunroof open on the BMW or Range Rover unless temps are below freezing or it's raining.

I prefer a convertible version of a car if available and a sunroof if no convertible. I don't think I'll ever be without a convertible or sunroof car.

I'll add another billion to that.  If it weren't for practical concerns, I'd have nothing but droptops. 

[SVT666]

Why do you guys give a shit if some of us don't like Verts or sunroofs?  Why do you take it personally?  I prefer a solid hardtop with the windows down...and I don't give a shit if you don't.

[J86]

I must say, however, that is a roadster with a wind deflector and a strong heater, you can go down to about 30 degrees without developing pneumonia.  Heated seats help as well.  Leave the windows up.

I had the Boxster out in 27-28F weather the day I after I got it.  Wonderful, early morning driving, post Christmas; no one was out.

There's not much better than driving top-down on snow covered roads in the early AM, before the plows mar the clean snow.

[Raza]

Why do you guys give a shit if some of us don't like Verts or sunroofs?  Why do you take it personally?  I prefer a solid hardtop with the windows down...and I don't give a shit if you don't.

It's because we care about you and we feel you're missing out. 

[ChrisV]

It's because we care about you and we feel you're missing out. 

It's also because people ask questions on here, and good judgement needs to come into play, and the ability to be objective. Most reasoning used to dislike something (from what I've seen on this and other forums) comes from a lack of knowledge, or a lack of perspective, and who wants to get advice from someone they can't trust to have knowledge and perspective?

I'd like to know that people here are well balanced, knowledgeable, and have a good perspective on all areas of the automotive world so that I can trust them to give good advice or at least make quality statements. So when you list your reasoning behind an opinion, and that reasoning shows a lack of balance and perspective (or in some cases, a lack of knowledge) then those reasons can be, and will be, called into question.

To ask Hemi the question directly, why do YOU care if we question your reasoning? Isn't that what a forum is for? Are you worried that you might learn something if you open your mind? Sometimes getting called out on an opinion (or more accurately, the reasoning/knowledge/thought process behind the opinion) allows you to more fully articulate that reasoning and examine it for flaws. It allows you to go out into the world more secure in your knowledge base. A good, solid argument for a case may not sway anyone's mind (though it most likely will), but it can garner respect amongst those who's opinions differ. A childish whining that you aren't being allowed your opinion simply makes your case weaker. i dont' want to see your case as weak. I'd like you to articulate it in a way that doesn't make you seem your opinion is being insulting and demeaning. I can (and do) respect a differing opinion based on a solid foundation.

In this particular case, the arguments being used against convertibles/sunroofs are very weak, and show a lack of rational thinking ability which undermines the respect for not only this opinion but any opinion you might state. And quite frankly, I want your opinion to count for something, even if it differs from mine. A differing opinion should be able to be met with a "I see the reasoning behind that opinion. I disagree with the end decision, but I respect the thought process that brought it about." That's simply not the case here. Yoder said that your reasoning sounded like a bunch of girls that counldn't handle a little bit of exposure to the elements. Is that the way you want your opinion, and the perception of you, to come across?

yes, I come across as harsh, and even arrogant. I've made it a point over the years to speak only about the things I know thoroughly. I've also made it a point to answer insulting commentary with harsh words. Being nice (which I tried for a couple years to start with, as it's more in line with my IRL personality) does NOT work to get the point across online whan teh anonymity of the web makes people make it a point to be immature and insulting to start with. Harsh, but true. I only stay at forums where I fel people to be genrally knowledgeable, open minded and willing to learn more (I learn more every day). You guys for the most part are that sort of group, which is why it pains me when I see opinions bandied about the way some people do here, showing a closed mindedness and ability to hate that is unbecoming of a group of knowledgeable auto enthusiasts. So if I seem a bit harsh, that's why. You have the potential to do the world good by spreading accurate knowledge and balanced opinion. Not just to other forums, but to the people you come in contact with on a daily basis and who might rely on you for your automotive knowledge.

[SVT666]

In this particular case, the arguments being used against convertibles/sunroofs are very weak, and show a lack of rational thinking ability which undermines the respect for not only this opinion but any opinion you might state. And quite frankly, I want your opinion to count for something, even if it differs from mine. A differing opinion should be able to be met with a "I see the reasoning behind that opinion. I disagree with the end decision, but I respect the thought process that brought it about." That's simply not the case here. Yoder said that your reasoning sounded like a bunch of girls that counldn't handle a little bit of exposure to the elements. Is that the way you want your opinion, and the perception of you, to come across?

This is not a case of differing opinions.  This is a case of differing preferences.  Two different things.

My motoring preference is with a fixed roof and no sunroof.  Why?  Because I don't like having the sun beating down on my head and shoulders or coming from an angle that my sunglasses can't block.  That doesn't make me a whiny girl anymore then driving a Vert makes you an attention seeking ego maniac.  When we say we like fixed roofs, you vert guys take it personally and tell us we're pussies.  Vert guys always seem to think that they are more of an enthusiast then coupe guys.  I don't understand that mentality, but you won't see me cutting you down for liking verts. 

This question has nothing to do with opinions, it has everything to do with preference.  Just like styling or number of cylinders is all about preference and nothing to do with opinions.  That's something you fail to understand.  You think everything is opinion and nothing can be a preference.

[SVT666]

yes, I come across as harsh, and even arrogant. I've made it a point over the years to speak only about the things I know thoroughly. I've also made it a point to answer insulting commentary with harsh words. Being nice (which I tried for a couple years to start with, as it's more in line with my IRL personality) does NOT work to get the point across online whan teh anonymity of the web makes people make it a point to be immature and insulting to start with. Harsh, but true. I only stay at forums where I fel people to be genrally knowledgeable, open minded and willing to learn more (I learn more every day). You guys for the most part are that sort of group, which is why it pains me when I see opinions bandied about the way some people do here, showing a closed mindedness and ability to hate that is unbecoming of a group of knowledgeable auto enthusiasts. So if I seem a bit harsh, that's why. You have the potential to do the world good by spreading accurate knowledge and balanced opinion. Not just to other forums, but to the people you come in contact with on a daily basis and who might rely on you for your automotive knowledge.

I have preferences, just like everybodyy does, but that doesn't mean I'm close minded.  I'm a muscle car guy who likes cars with big horsepower and RWD, but my next car is an SVT Focus.  Over the years, I have come to like the Subaru WRX (not the new one though), the EVO, and a handful of other cars that I used to dislike because of the boy racer looks.  I've learned took past the boy racer looks and see the automotive jewels they are, but I still prefer V8 RWD muscle cars.  I think I'm one of the most neutral people on this site when it comes to biases, although you are definitely the most neutral.  I'm one of the few people on here who will actually say I hate a car or hate something automotive.  I don't even hate verts, I just prefer hardtops.  Although a Cobra replica or Super 7 would be a very nice addition to my garage.

[Tave]

And it's neck-and-neck!

10:10

[ChrisV]

Hemi, You're right, we all have preferences and favorites. Thank god we all have different ones or the world would be boring. As I've said many times before, it's not the preferences or favorites that are the issue, but the reasoning used to hate that which isn't the preference or favorite. Can you even understand that reasoning is used to JUSTIFY a preference? And that that reasoning might be flawed? You continually mistake that it's about the preferences themselves being different that I have issue with. It is not.

Hate is just ugly and it leads to insulting that which is someone else's favorite or preference, either directly or indirectly. And I'm sorry to say, but that's just wrong. And that's what I respond to. There are ways of couching your preference and dislike of something that isn't your preference that makes your side of the argument strong and your statements unassailable. And that don't come across as being insulting or weak minded. That's all.

And I'm not trying to say any particular person here is being closed minded right now (it is more of a generalization of some statements on this and other forums, and single marque forums are the worst offenders...). I just see the reasoning being used in this thread to generally be weak and closed to new experience.

[Minpin]

Hemi, You're right, we all have preferences and favorites. Thank god we all have different ones or the world would be boring. As I've said many times before, it's not the preferences or favorites that are the issue, but the reasoning used to hate that which isn't the preference or favorite. Can you even understand that reasoning is used to JUSTIFY a preference? And that that reasoning might be flawed? You continually mistake that it's about the preferences themselves being different that I have issue with. It is not.

Hate is just ugly and it leads to insulting that which is someone else's favorite or preference, either directly or indirectly. And I'm sorry to say, but that's just wrong. And that's what I respond to. There are ways of couching your preference and dislike of something that isn't your preference that makes your side of the argument strong and your statements unassailable. And that don't come across as being insulting or weak minded. That's all.

And I'm not trying to say any particular person here is being closed minded right now (it is more of a generalization of some statements on this and other forums, and single marque forums are the worst offenders...). I just see the reasoning being used in this thread to generally be weak and closed to new experience.

You might say Im closed to new experience, IF I was saying I don't like sunroofs and I didn't have one in my current car. Fact is, my entire roof is made from glass, and I just find myself getting annoyed by it more than anything. As I have said before, the shades might block the direct sunlight, but when I park my car the heat still gets into it. Yoder tried to get all scientific and tried to prove me wrong by saying people put shades in the windshields. Which they do. There is one main difference between those shades and my two cent shades made in god knows where. Mine are literally just a piece of cloth which at best absorbs the heat. The windshield shades on the other hand REFLECT the sunlight and heat, not just block it. That is the main difference and is it huge. Secondly, even when the sunroof is open, I get no additional airflow in my car, it has a glass piece that pops up and effectively blocks all the wind from coming into the car. So if it gives me zero benefits but gives me multiple amounts of issues, why should I like it? Don't get me wrong, I love the wind in my hair, I love some 'verts. But when it  comes to sunroofs, I will pass every single time, given the option.

[SVT666]

Hemi, You're right, we all have preferences and favorites. Thank god we all have different ones or the world would be boring. As I've said many times before, it's not the preferences or favorites that are the issue, but the reasoning used to hate that which isn't the preference or favorite. Can you even understand that reasoning is used to JUSTIFY a preference? And that that reasoning might be flawed? You continually mistake that it's about the preferences themselves being different that I have issue with. It is not.

I don't think you should have to justify a preference...an opinion? Absolutely, but not a preference.  I prefer a lot of things over other things and don't even know why.  I just know I prefer them.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

I'll add another billion to that.  If it weren't for practical concerns, I'd have nothing but droptops. 

Wit the exception of my winter beater droptops are all I own.

[Raza]

Wit the exception of my winter beater droptops are all I own.

I'm concerned slightly more with practicality, it seems!

Although, I might be able to swing a Viggen convertible.  But I really want MCY!

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

Droptops just took the lead. 10:11

[Eye of the Tiger]

My driving style requires the rollover protection of a hardtop.

[Soup DeVille]

My driving style requires the rollover protection of a hardtop.

You oughta seen some fo the shit I pulled in the S2000!

[Eye of the Tiger]

You oughta seen some fo the shit I pulled in the S2000!

did ya get it up on two wheels? because i've been up on two wheels before...

[Soup DeVille]

did ya get it up on two wheels? because i've been up on two wheels before...

No, but it has such a low center of gravity that that would take some doing.

I've ended up going backwards at over 90 MPH a couple of times though. Not intentionally either.

[JYODER240]

It's also because people ask questions on here, and good judgement needs to come into play, and the ability to be objective. Most reasoning used to dislike something (from what I've seen on this and other forums) comes from a lack of knowledge, or a lack of perspective, and who wants to get advice from someone they can't trust to have knowledge and perspective?

Excellent point. That is probably the biggest source of frustration I have on this forum.

[Minpin]

Excellent point. That is probably the biggest source of frustration I have on this forum.

Yep, my lack of knowledge about the complexity of sunroofs is astonishing. 

[JYODER240]

Yep, my lack of knowledge about the complexity of sunroofs is astonishing. 

You might say Im closed to new experience, IF I was saying I don't like sunroofs and I didn't have one in my current car. Fact is, my entire roof is made from glass, and I just find myself getting annoyed by it more than anything. As I have said before, the shades might block the direct sunlight, but when I park my car the heat still gets into it. Yoder tried to get all scientific and tried to prove me wrong by saying people put shades in the windshields. Which they do. There is one main difference between those shades and my two cent shades made in god knows where. Mine are literally just a piece of cloth which at best absorbs the heat. The windshield shades on the other hand REFLECT the sunlight and heat, not just block it. That is the main difference and is it huge. Secondly, even when the sunroof is open, I get no additional airflow in my car, it has a glass piece that pops up and effectively blocks all the wind from coming into the car. So if it gives me zero benefits but gives me multiple amounts of issues, why should I like it? Don't get me wrong, I love the wind in my hair, I love some 'verts. But when it  comes to sunroofs, I will pass every single time, given the option.

You just proved the point me and Chris were making. When I read posts like this I have to wonder why I visit the forum.

The entire time you talked about the sunroof in your car. You said your entire roof is made of glass.You said how your shade is just a piece of cloth. You said how your car gets no additional airflow with it open.

Now, there are others of us who have an open mind on the subject, who have driven more than just a handful of cars, who have the knowledge, experience, and perspective to form a fair opinion. Every reason you provided for disliking sunroofs is based on your car. If all sunroofs were as you described yours to be then I would have no problem respecting your opinion. There are others of us who have experience on the subject. For starters your car is in no way representative of cars with sunroofs as a whole. Also the difference in heat between closing the shade and having no sunroof is marginal. I doubt you could tell the difference in most cars. The shade still cuts down on heat even though it isn't reflective. Your arguement is based on what negatives you can find with your sunroof. You say how you don't like the sun beating down on you in the summer. You ignore the fact that you could open it at night or during cooler parts of the year. 

If you had solid reasoning behind not liking sunroofs I would have no problem with your opinion. But when you say things like, "But when it  comes to sunroofs, I will pass every single time, given the option." It only shows that you have a lack of knowledge, perspective, or experience.

[Minpin]

You just proved the point me and Chris were making. When I read posts like this I have to wonder why I visit the forum.

The entire time you talked about the sunroof in your car. You said your entire roof is made of glass.You said how your shade is just a piece of cloth. You said how your car gets no additional airflow with it open.

Now, there are others of us who have an open mind on the subject, who have driven more than just a handful of cars, who have the knowledge, experience, and perspective to form a fair opinion. Every reason you provided for disliking sunroofs is based on your car. If all sunroofs were as you described yours to be then I would have no problem respecting your opinion. There are others of us who have experience on the subject. For starters your car is in no way representative of cars with sunroofs as a whole. Also the difference in heat between closing the shade and having no sunroof is marginal. I doubt you could tell the difference in most cars. The shade still cuts down on heat even though it isn't reflective. Your arguement is based on what negatives you can find with your sunroof. You say how you don't like the sun beating down on you in the summer. You ignore the fact that you could open it at night or during cooler parts of the year. 

If you had solid reasoning behind not liking sunroofs I would have no problem with your opinion. But when you say things like, "But when it  comes to sunroofs, I will pass every single time, given the option." It only shows that you have a lack of knowledge, perspective, or experience.

Whatever. You think just because my opinion is different than yours its wrong, as usual with you. Do you think I live in a cave? Do you honestly think I've only ridden/driven in one car with a sunroof? Im only using my car as its the best example I have. I have said time and time again that I don't mind people who like sunroofs. I just don't like them! At all. I never will! Jesus..talk about beating the dead horse. I have given you plenty of reasons as to why I don't like them, all of them are valid complaints that would be easily avoidable if I did not have a sunroof. You seem to think my reasons aren't good enough for you. Which then somehow tells you I "have a lack of knowledge, perspective, or experience." JUST BECAUSE I DISAGREE WITH YOU DOESN'T MAKE YOU RIGHT OR LIKEWISE MAKE ME RIGHT.

[SVT666]

You just proved the point me and Chris were making. When I read posts like this I have to wonder why I visit the forum.

The entire time you talked about the sunroof in your car. You said your entire roof is made of glass.You said how your shade is just a piece of cloth. You said how your car gets no additional airflow with it open.

Now, there are others of us who have an open mind on the subject, who have driven more than just a handful of cars, who have the knowledge, experience, and perspective to form a fair opinion. Every reason you provided for disliking sunroofs is based on your car. If all sunroofs were as you described yours to be then I would have no problem respecting your opinion. There are others of us who have experience on the subject. For starters your car is in no way representative of cars with sunroofs as a whole. Also the difference in heat between closing the shade and having no sunroof is marginal. I doubt you could tell the difference in most cars. The shade still cuts down on heat even though it isn't reflective. Your arguement is based on what negatives you can find with your sunroof. You say how you don't like the sun beating down on you in the summer. You ignore the fact that you could open it at night or during cooler parts of the year. 

If you had solid reasoning behind not liking sunroofs I would have no problem with your opinion. But when you say things like, "But when it  comes to sunroofs, I will pass every single time, given the option." It only shows that you have a lack of knowledge, perspective, or experience.

You and ChrisV need to get a room.

[Eye of the Tiger]

No, but it has such a low center of gravity that that would take some doing.

I've ended up going backwards at over 90 MPH a couple of times though. Not intentionally either.

On what manner of roads did you achieve such feats as this!?

[Soup DeVille]

On what manner of roads did you achieve such feats as this!?

Paved ones with twisty bits in them.