First Drive: 2006 Lexus IS 350

[SJ_GTI]

Like the A4, your top choice, which is in NO way related to the Passat?  

The A4 was related to the old Passat, but the new Passat is based on a larger Jetta platform.

For the old passat...for me there is a difference between passing down high-end chassis to a mainstreamer and spiffing up a mainstream chassis for a luxury car.

The Passat/A4/A6 chassis was developed with high-end applications in mind, such as use of V8 (S4, RS4, A6), TT V8's (RS6), etc...along with true AWD systems (longitudinal engine layout to enable the use of a torsen center differential rather than an Hladex setup).

The Maxima is pretty much the top of the line version of that chassis, it doesn't off AWD, no V8, etc...Same with the ES330 and to some degree the TL (no V8 or any high performance models, but it does offer a unique AWD setup despite having a transverse engine layout).

In the end I don't think this was very cost effective Passat, but it did give VW a mainstream car that drove as well as most premium cars.

[ifcar]

Your "near lux" examples could be classified simply as expensive large/full-size sedans, along with the Avalon.

That's what I consider near-lux to be. You don't agree?

I don't really agree with the "near lux" term, as an Avalon or Maxima is as close luxury as an ES330 and G35. If you're not going to consider them entry-luxes along with the rest, large sedans works fine.

[mazda6er]

Your "near lux" examples could be classified simply as expensive large/full-size sedans, along with the Avalon.

That's what I consider near-lux to be. You don't agree?

I don't really agree with the "near lux" term, as an Avalon or Maxima is as close luxury as an ES330 and G35. If you're not going to consider them entry-luxes along with the rest, large sedans works fine.

In my mind, I guess there are two classes of passenger cars: mainstream and lux, with compacts in the mainstream being analgous to the "entry-level" lux (i.e. IS), midsizers being analgous to the "mid-level" lux (i.e. GS), and large sedans being analgous to the "upper-level" lux (i.e. LS). Since the large sedans of the "mainstream" category tend to offer the most in terms of ammenities/options, etc, but are generally produced by non-luxury brands, I consider that the cutoff where mainstreamers end, and luxury models begin. Thus the tag: "near-lux"

[TBR]

So the ES330 and TL would actually be "mid-level" lux due to their size?  

[mazda6er]

So the ES330 and TL would actually be "mid-level" lux due to their size?

I categorized mainstream cars by size, the luxury ones less so. Thus, I used GS as an example comparing midsizers to "mid-lux" rather than the ES. The ES falls somwhere in between the "entry-lux" and "mid-lux", I feel. As for the TL, it doesn't get nearly the respect it deserves. It may not offer a boatload of options like some vehicles, but yes, I do consider it "mid-lux".

[TBR]

It gets a lot more respect than it deserves imho. As far as I am concerned, if a car is closely based on a mainstream vehicle it can be nothing more than a near lux car.  

[ifcar]

Like the A4.

[TBR]

Like the A4.

As Mtl_A4 said, the current one has nothing to do with the Passat and the prev gen was a near lux car imho.  

[mazda6er]

Like the A4.

As Mtl_A4 said, the current one has nothing to do with the Passat and the prev gen was a near lux car imho.

The current one is only heavily-refreshed... not an entirely new car.  <_<  

[TBR]

Like the A4.

As Mtl_A4 said, the current one has nothing to do with the Passat and the prev gen was a near lux car imho.

The current one is only heavily-refreshed... not an entirely new car.  <_<

The '03 and later model is completely different than from the Passat, though the '96-'02 model was based on the Passat.  

[ifcar]

Like the A4.

As Mtl_A4 said, the current one has nothing to do with the Passat and the prev gen was a near lux car imho.

The current A4 (02 on) remains Passat based, so far as I know.

[ifcar]

Like the A4.

As Mtl_A4 said, the current one has nothing to do with the Passat and the prev gen was a near lux car imho.

The current A4 (02 on) remains Passat based, so far as I know.

I just looked at MTL's post, and it confirms it. The current A4 is still based on the 98-05 Passat, the Passat is just getting redesigned first, for 06, on an unrelated platform.

[TBR]

Sure enough, just read it more carefully. Still, like mtl_a4 said, the Passat/A4 chassis was originally designed for the A4 and then was passed down to the Passat.  

[ifcar]

Sure enough, just read it more carefully. Still, like mtl_a4 said, the Passat/A4 chassis was originally designed for the A4 and then was passed down to the Passat.

The Passat started on that platform in 1998, the A4 in 2002.

Either way, it's platform sharing. I could suggest that the Camry platform was developed with the ES330 in mind, then passed to the Camry, and you'd have no way of disproving that.

[TBR]

Sure enough, just read it more carefully. Still, like mtl_a4 said, the Passat/A4 chassis was originally designed for the A4 and then was passed down to the Passat.

The Passat started on that platform in 1998, the A4 in 2002.

Either way, it's platform sharing. I could suggest that the Camry platform was developed with the ES330 in mind, then passed to the Camry, and you'd have no way of disproving that.

Except the Camry came out first, and didn't the pre '02 model also use the Passat chassis?  

[TBR]

Just checked, it did.

[ifcar]

Sure enough, just read it more carefully. Still, like mtl_a4 said, the Passat/A4 chassis was originally designed for the A4 and then was passed down to the Passat.

The Passat started on that platform in 1998, the A4 in 2002.

Either way, it's platform sharing. I could suggest that the Camry platform was developed with the ES330 in mind, then passed to the Camry, and you'd have no way of disproving that.

Except the Camry came out first, and didn't the pre '02 model also use the Passat chassis?

Both the Camry and ES came out in 01 for the 02 model year.

Just checked CG, the platform that the current A4 and 05 Passat are on dates back to the 96 A4, but the Passat was the first to get an update (01.5, then 02 for the A4) that included some A6 parts.

[TBR]

For some reason I was thinking the Camry came out for '01, but that isn't right. The point remains that while the A4/Passat chassis has high level features the Camry chassis definitely doesn't.  

[ifcar]

What's your point? Sharing a platform with a mainstream model makes anything a "near lux" unless you say otherwise?

[TBR]

What's your point? Sharing a platform with a mainstream model makes anything a "near lux" unless you say otherwise?

No, let me simplify this for you. If a car is RWD or AWD it is an entry level luxury car (provided it has a luxury badge of course) while if a car is FWD it is a near luxury car. I consider certain models to be both, for example a front track A4 is near lux while a Quattro A4 is entry lux.  

[ifcar]

What's your point? Sharing a platform with a mainstream model makes anything a "near lux" unless you say otherwise?

No, let me simplify this for you. If a car is RWD or AWD it is an entry level luxury car (provided it has a luxury badge of course) while if a car is FWD it is a near luxury car. I consider certain models to be both, for example a front track A4 is near lux while a Quattro A4 is entry lux.

Anyone can make up a definition to make sure that the cars that they want are included, and those that they don't are excluded.

[TBR]

That is the same definition many magazines use.  

[ifcar]

So "many magazines" consider a $50,000 S80 "near-lux" and a $30K G35 "entry-lux"? And all magazines I've seen have put the S60, 9-3, 9-5, and TL in the same class as the 3-Series and G35.

[TBR]

So "many magazines" consider a $50,000 S80 "near-lux" and a $30K G35 "entry-lux"? And all magazines I've seen have put the S60, 9-3, 9-5, and TL in the same class as the 3-Series and G35.

Forgot about SAABs. But, you will never see cars like the ES330 or Maxima in a comparo with the 3-series, G35, CTS, or A4. My definition isn't perfect, but it is the closest I can come to a perfect one. Most people just use there own discretion and don't pin down a specific definition.  

[ifcar]

So "many magazines" consider a $50,000 S80 "near-lux" and a $30K G35 "entry-lux"? And all magazines I've seen have put the S60, 9-3, 9-5, and TL in the same class as the 3-Series and G35.

Forgot about SAABs. But, you will never see cars like the ES330 or Maxima in a comparo with the 3-series, G35, CTS, or A4. My definition isn't perfect, but it is the closest I can come to a perfect one. Most people just use there own discretion and don't pin down a specific definition.

Forget about Saabs, as they don't fit your definition.  

How about the TL? C/D has put it in the same comparo as the G35, CTS, 3-Series, and A4. R/T included the TL and S60 FWD in a comparo with the above vehicles a few years back as well. No enthusiast mags that I know of have included the ES330 in any comparos, it's just not their type of car.

[TBR]

Must I define discretion?. And, I don't recall seeing a mag do a near lux comparo lately, but the last one C/D did consisted of cars like the TL, ES300, Aurora, Bonneville, 300m, etc.

[ifcar]

Must I define discretion?. And, I don't recall seeing a mag do a near lux comparo lately, but the last one C/D did consisted of cars like the TL, ES300, Aurora, Bonneville, 300m, etc.

C/D, March 04:
TL
A4
325i
G35
X-Type
IS300
9-3

And they've done at least one every year since I started subscribing in 01 (?).

[TBR]

That was an entry level comparo, not a near lux one

[ifcar]

That was an entry level comparo, not a near lux one

The A4, 325i, G35, and X-Type are entry-lux by your definition (unless it changed again), while the TL and 9-3 are near-lux by your definition.

[TBR]

That was an entry level comparo, not a near lux one

The A4, 325i, G35, and X-Type are entry-lux by your definition (unless it changed again), while the TL and 9-3 are near-lux by your definition.

Was that comparo labeled as a near lux compare? No, it wasn't, the one I am talking about was.