ZR1 = 638 hp and 604 lb-ft

[S204STi]

I guess the location doesn't matter, i guess for that matter the design doesn't matter either.

So i guess the corvette is a supercar, so is the GT-R, hell so is my EVO IX. All of these cars offer performance and pedigree.

The Evo not so much...

[565]

Downforce issues?  You think they pegged it back?

Maybe, it doesn't look like any of the Corvettes, be it C6, C6 Z06, or C6 ZR1 can generate any down force, only varying amounts of lift.  But even reducing lift adds more drag.

The Z06 has a Cd of .31 or .342 depending on who's quoted, compared to .27 of the C6. This is due to the splitter, the gurney flaps behind the wheels, the wider wheel arches, and the tiny spoiler at the back.

Though despite this, the Z06 still produces lift at speed rather than downforce.  GM is pretty tight lipped about actual numbers.  They do say that lift is reduced by 138kg (303.6 pounds) at 300kph (187mph), so we can guess the C6 lifts by at least that much.  Also it's hugely reduced from the C5, which seems basically like a small airplane.

This informative thread over at Corvette forums discusses it.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=1924797

It seems like the ZR-1 despite having even more aero pieces, will have lift at both ends at speed as well.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_li...ber+page-3.html

"This raises the subject of aerodynamics. Chevrolet has been doing intensive computational fluid-dynamic development with the Pratt & Miller Corvette racing team, but Juechter still anticipates modest front and rear lift at extreme speeds. How much lift? We don?t know. But we do know it doesn?t take much to make life more exciting when the speedo creeps north of 200 mph."

The number for lift reduction kicked around is a 29% further reduction in lift from the Z06 in the ZR1,  24% in the front, 43% in the rear.

http://news.windingroad.com/body-stylesmar...e-corvette-zr1/

"Compared to the Z06, the ZR1 has 24 percent less lift in the front and 43 percent less lift in the rear. This brings the overall reduction in lift to 29 percent when compared to a Z06. The biggest challenge for designers of a front-engine sports car is to counter the canopy effect that the cockpit creates. This challenge isn?t quite as tough with a mid-engine design."

The one word not used in that article is downforce, because the ZR-1 doesn't look like it's going create overall downforce, only reduction in lift.  Thus it doesn't look like the ZR-1 is limited to lower top speeds due to crazy amounts of downforce.  Though this may suggest that GM is purposely limiting the top speed due to possible stability concerns at higher speeds.  It seems to me as well that 638Hp and a .32-35 aerodynamic package should yield higher speeds.

Overall the C6 Aero package is good, but is starting to show it's limitations.  There's only so much you can do with a wingless design, and while GM has made HUGE reductions from the lift of the C5 body, the GM engineers still have to make due with a general wedge shape of the C5 from the mid 90s.  GM has also had to balance making a car look good as well as aerodynamically capable, all on a rather dated overall shape.

I hate to bring the GT-R into yet another Corvette thread (as it always ends up as a perfect storm flame war), but the GT-R is a car that really highlights what you can do with aerodynamics if you are willing to use a wing (even a small one), design the body from scratch, and allow form to entirely follow function.  The GT-R's Cd comes in at .27 like the base C6, but more importantly it has a Cl (lift coefficient) of -.09.  This means that the GT-R will generate downforce at all speeds, and allows for "more than 176 pounds of downforce at both ends (353 pounds total), at 186 mph." 

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_li...st_drive_review

By comparison we know the similarly slippery C6 will generate at least 303 pounds of lift at 187mph, most likely a bit more because even after a 303 pound reduction in the Z06, followed by a further reduction in the ZR-1, the Corvette body still produces some lift.  I guess the flip side is that the C6 looks sleek and swoopy, while the GT-R is , well,  a bit unorthodox looking, I still love that form follows function look though.

[sandertheshark]

These are obviously just my opinions.  I'm curious what you guys think qualifies as a supercar.

I don't see it as a blurry line.  There is a very clear benchmark for inclusion to the modern supercar club.  It's 200mph.

The Z06 comes up just short.  But the ZR1 gets over the bar.

[FlatBlackCaddy]

The new Ford GT is an automotive footnote.  It was in production for all of two seconds.

Yup, Sadly it's still more than the corvette is or ever will be(if GM never changes it).

That's just my opinion though, but i'm sure it's shared by many.

[FlatBlackCaddy]

Supercar is a vague term and we can fight it out forever what is considered a supercar and what is not.  Basically we can all agree a Mclaren F1 is a supercar (or hypercar) and an EVO is not, and that stuff that falls in the middle will be quite a bit more wishy washy.  It purely becomes a matter of opinion.

One of my friends considered my Z06 a supercar (before the C6 Z06 was released), and it certainly ran with Modenas and 911 Turbos, but I wouldn't consider it a supercar in my wildest daydreams.

To me a supercar is not so much about performance, or about balance and communication, or even about pedigree.  It's all about a sense of wildness, a sense of casting caution into the wind during development, of not holding back and thinking sensibly.  For example, to me a very faulted Diablo is definitely a supercar, but the amazing 911 GT2 is not.  A Zonda is definitely a supercar but the ZR1 (which will probably be faster) is not.

Here is my supercars from "normal" manufactures list according to 565.

In my opinion Porsche has only made 3 true supercars in modern times.  The 959, the 911 GT1, and the Carrera GT.

In my opinion, BMW's closest thing to a modern supercar would be the M1, but I don't think they've put anything out recently that qualifies as a true supercar (Z8 definitely falls short).

Mercedes has had two supercars in modern times, the SLR, and the CLK-GTR road cars. None of the AMG monsters qualify.

In my opinion Audi's R8 just barely misses the mark for Supercardom in my opinion.  None of their S line qualifies.

VW had that Nardo W-12 concept that would qualify, but it was never built.

In my opinion GM has yet to build a true modern supercar, and this new ZR1 will not qualify.

Ford has only built the new GT to qualify as a modern supercar (even though I still maintain it's an automotive footnote).

Chrysler has yet to put a supercar into production (though the ME-14 or whatever it was called would have been), the Viper does not qualify

In my opinion Nissan has built only one modern supercar to date, the R390 GT1 road car.

Toyota's only true supercar has been the TS020 road car (too bad there was only like 1 built).  The LFA when its released will be their second.

Honda has yet to built a supercar (sorry NSX).  The new NSX may qualify.

Subaru and Mitubishi have no supercars.

Hyundai has no supercars.


These are obviously just my opinions.  I'm curious what you guys think qualifies as a supercar.

That entire post pretty much sums it up perfectly for me right down to what is and is not a supercar.

[MX793]

The new Ford GT is an automotive footnote.  It was in production for all of two seconds.

IIRC, significantly more examples were built than of any of the "super" Ferraris like the 288GTO, F40, F50 and Enzo (in fact, Ford built more GTs than Ferrari built of all of those cars combined).

[Tave]

IIRC, significantly more examples were built than of any of the "super" Ferraris

As well as many of the cars on 565's list.

[565]

Here's a video of the top speed run.

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=125940?tid=edmunds.il.home.photopanel..3.*

[Raza]

I have a very narrow view of what a supercar is. 

The GT-R, Corvette Z06 and ZR-1, Ferrari 430, Lamborghini Gallardo, Porsche 911 are all not supercars.

Murcielago, GT2, 599, Ford GT, Zonda, et al; those are supercars.

[FlatBlackCaddy]

I have a very narrow view of what a supercar is. 

The GT-R, Corvette Z06 and ZR-1, Ferrari 430, Lamborghini Gallardo, Porsche 911 are all not supercars.

Murcielago, GT2, 599, Ford GT, Zonda, et al; those are supercars.

GT2? You mean the 911 GT2?

[Lebowski]

I have a very narrow view of what a supercar is. 

The GT-R, Corvette Z06 and ZR-1, Ferrari 430, Lamborghini Gallardo, Porsche 911 are all not supercars.

Murcielago, GT2, 599, Ford GT, Zonda, et al; those are supercars.

How can a GT2 be a supercar if a 911 isn't?

What makes a 599 more "super" than an F430, other than price?

In short, your definition makes no sense.

IMO, an Enzo is a supercar, a 599 is not.  The Zonda is, the GT2 is not (you can't have a model straddle the supercar spectrum, either all 911s are supercars or none are).  The Murcielago is a tough call.

[VetteZ06]

I'd probably give my right arm to have a ZR1. Of course, that would mean not being able to shift, but that's not the point.

Also, arguing over personal definitions of what constitutes a sports car seems like a fruitless exercise. Has anyone ever changed his viewpoint?

[FlatBlackCaddy]

Is there a well written definition of what a supercar is?

I couldn't find anything other than a wikipedia definition.

That definitin seemed to fit what I always thought a supercar should be. 

[Lebowski]

Is there a well written definition of what a supercar is?

I couldn't find anything other than a wikipedia definition.

That definitin seemed to fit what I always thought a supercar should be. 

No, that's why the argument is so silly.  565's definition is a pretty good one IMO.

[Raza]

GT2? You mean the 911 GT2?

How can a GT2 be a supercar if a 911 isn't?

What makes a 599 more "super" than an F430, other than price?

In short, your definition makes no sense.

IMO, an Enzo is a supercar, a 599 is not.  The Zonda is, the GT2 is not (you can't have a model straddle the supercar spectrum, either all 911s are supercars or none are).  The Murcielago is a tough call.

I wrote GT2, but I meant to type CGT (as in Carrera GT).  Brain wasn't working. 

I put the 599 in there because the Enzo doesn't exist anymore and the 599 has its engine and is just as fast.  I'd say it's on the line.  I don't think the Murcielago is a tough call though.

[BimmerM3]

The new Ford GT is an automotive footnote.  It was in production for all of two seconds.

Seriously? The GT was produced from 2003 to 2006 with over 4,000 examples reaching the road. Compare that to 399 Enzos, 1200 Carrera GTs, 3000 Murcielagos, and 3500 SLRs (not all of which have been produced yet).

The only of the above cars that I've personally seen on the road is the Murcielago and the Ford GT (and I've seen a couple of each of them). I'll be simply astonished if I EVER see the Enzo on the road.

How could you possibly consider the CLK-GTR less of a footnote than the Ford GT, when there were only about 25 CLK-GTRs produced?

[Submariner]

Seriously? The GT was produced from 2003 to 2006 with over 4,000 examples reaching the road. Compare that to 399 Enzos, 1200 Carrera GTs, 3000 Murcielagos, and 3500 SLRs (not all of which have been produced yet).

The only of the above cars that I've personally seen on the road is the Murcielago and the Ford GT (and I've seen a couple of each of them). I'll be simply astonished if I EVER see the Enzo on the road.

How could you possibly consider the CLK-GTR less of a footnote than the Ford GT, when there were only about 25 CLK-GTRs produced?

Not to mention it had a price tag of 1,000,000+ dollars.

[LonghornTX]

Supercar is a term meant to imply a certain level of performance, and by that definition, the ZR1 surely fits the bill.  Any car that can go over 200mph is considered an exotic in my book, whether it be ME, FE, RWD, AWD, sedan, coupe, etc.

The term Exotic, now that is a different story...

[SVT666]

Corvette engineers say ZR1 will best Nissan GT-R's N?rburgring lap time
May2

Nissan just announced that its mighty GT-R just lapped the N?rburgring in 7 minutes 29 seconds, but the boys over at Chevrolet aren't about to hand over the production-car track record. Corvette Chief Engineer Tadge Juechter says that a production version of the ZR1 will be able to beat the GT-R's impressive mark.

Up until now, only pre-production ZR1s have been lapping the N?rburgring. But with Chevrolet's 638 horsepower, 205 mph sports car now ready for production, Corvette engineers feel that the supercar from Detroit will have no trouble eclipsing the GT-R's time.

Juechter even told Edmunds that the ZR1 should be able to lap the track in "seven minutes, twenty-something seconds."

But even if the 'Vette can best 7 minutes 29 seconds, it still has to contend with the higher-performance GT-R V-Spec.

[CALL_911]

I want a ZR1 more than I want a GT-R.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

I want a ZR1 more than I want a GT-R.

[SVT666]

I would take a ZR1 and I would paint the window on the hood.

[hotrodalex]

Corvette engineers say ZR1 will best Nissan GT-R's N?rburgring lap time
May2

Nissan just announced that its mighty GT-R just lapped the N?rburgring in 7 minutes 29 seconds, but the boys over at Chevrolet aren't about to hand over the production-car track record. Corvette Chief Engineer Tadge Juechter says that a production version of the ZR1 will be able to beat the GT-R's impressive mark.

Up until now, only pre-production ZR1s have been lapping the N?rburgring. But with Chevrolet's 638 horsepower, 205 mph sports car now ready for production, Corvette engineers feel that the supercar from Detroit will have no trouble eclipsing the GT-R's time.

Juechter even told Edmunds that the ZR1 should be able to lap the track in "seven minutes, twenty-something seconds."

But even if the 'Vette can best 7 minutes 29 seconds, it still has to contend with the higher-performance GT-R V-Spec.

I will be waiting. 

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

I would take a ZR1 and I would paint the window on the hood.

I wonder if the hood that Jay Lenos Vette would fit?

[Colonel Cadillac]

I want a ZR1 more than I want a GT-R.

I've gotten the feeling that the GT-R is just perfect with all of its computers and technology that it can just go really fast without too much effort. On the other hand, I bet the ZR1 is a challenge and one would have to put much more effort in to truly explore the beast's potential making it more fun; there's more excitement in the thought that the ZR1 is raw power and chassis engineering and you're going to have to deal with it all on your own.

So I would have to agree, I want the ZR1 more than the GT-R.

[Colonel Cadillac]

Also, on the note of these cars' cost, it's become hard to justify the Carrera and Carrera S based on the fact that the GT-R is worlds better as is the Z06 and all are in the same cost bracket.

[GoCougs]

Corvette engineers say ZR1 will best Nissan GT-R's N?rburgring lap time

Uh, I'm not so sure I would brag too much if I were Chevy - the GT-R is less-powerful and a much heavier and much bigger car. It's also a fair amount cheaper, too.

[SVT666]

Uh, I'm not so sure I would brag too much if I were Chevy - the GT-R is less-powerful and a much heavier and much bigger car. It's also a fair amount cheaper, too.

Considering it's pretty much the fastest street legal car in the world around the Nurburgring, it would be something to brag about...especially since there isn't a Ferrari or Lamborghini out there that can go that fast.

[sportyaccordy]

Considering it's pretty much the fastest street legal car in the world around the Nurburgring, it would be something to brag about...especially since there isn't a Ferrari or Lamborghini out there that can go that fast.

Have they put the F430 Scuderia around the Ring yet?

Wait a minute. Outside of bragging rights, why does it even matter???

[Colonel Cadillac]

Considering it's pretty much the fastest street legal car in the world around the Nurburgring, it would be something to brag about...especially since there isn't a Ferrari or Lamborghini out there that can go that fast.

Does it beat the 599?