IFCAR Comparo: Entry-Lux Sedans

[ifcar]

Most of you probably remember the most recent IFCAR comparo (full-size SUVs), and here's the entry-lux sedan group:

http://ifcar.net/reviews.comparisons.entryluxes.htm

This comparison did not include exclusive criteria, and 26 cars were included (though six were simply different versions of cars already included. I am not going to be fielding comments about the reasoning behind including almost everything that fell within the $29,000-$35,000 price range, it is explained on the comparison's main page.

The comparison itself should be complete, and let me know if you find errors either in content or with the site. Many links outside of the comparison do not work, but everything important to the comparison itself should.

If you have questions, please ask. If you disagree with anything, please bring it up for an INTELLIGENT debate (IE not "Well, I thought this should have been in first place, and I saw another comparison that agrees with me, so you're wrong.") I know it's long, but please read through at least the introduction and conclusion for each car instead of just looking at the order, which won't tell you very much. If you see errors (in either content or with the site) please let me know. And, as noted, I don't think I need to discuss the reasoning behind choosing not to separate the cars into distinct groups, for the reasons already explained on the site.

If this is the first time you've come across an IFCAR comparo, you can check out the other six at http://ifcar.net/reviews.comparisons.htm. Also, I've recently been phasing in the standard Reviews section of this site, and have worked through compact and subcompact sedans, and you can take a look at those here http://ifcar.net/reviews.all.htm.

BTW, it costs money to run a site, so if viewers could please click on a few ads, I'd appreciate it.

That should cover everything, so enjoy!

[BMWDave]

The 9th place link doesnt work.

[ifcar]

Thanks, missed that one. It works now from the Introduction page, and should soon be working from the other pages.  

[R33 GT-R]

That was long, I read the intro went over the vehicle details then quickly mushing through the places then the evaluation.  My car came in 20th, oh well it works for us.  That's such a broad spectrum you have there the apples and oranges are over the place.  It seemed well written and looked pretty good to me.

9th place

[BMWDave]

Also, when I click on 4th Place, it gives me the 5th place winner.

[ifcar]

That was long, I read the intro went over the vehicle details then quickly mushing through the places then the evaluation.  My car came in 20th, oh well it works for us.  That's such a broad spectrum you have there the apples and oranges are over the place.  It seemed well written and looked pretty good to me.

9th place

Thanks. When did you buy?

[ifcar]

Also, when I click on 4th Place, it gives me the 5th place winner.

I'll get to that now.  

[R33 GT-R]

That was long, I read the intro went over the vehicle details then quickly mushing through the places then the evaluation.  My car came in 20th, oh well it works for us.  That's such a broad spectrum you have there the apples and oranges are over the place.  It seemed well written and looked pretty good to me.

9th place

Thanks. When did you buy?

Pre redesign in late 03, I do like the wheels on mine better than the new ones though.  I really enjoy the little car and if you wind it out you can make it move nicely.  If you keep the rpms down you can get 32-38 mpg but for spirited 4k and above it drops to about 15-19.  We've had great luck with it so far and we drive the hell out of it.  I think it's approaching 70k miles now, that's why we are going to pick the wife up a new car in early 06.  

[ifcar]

That was long, I read the intro went over the vehicle details then quickly mushing through the places then the evaluation.  My car came in 20th, oh well it works for us.  That's such a broad spectrum you have there the apples and oranges are over the place.  It seemed well written and looked pretty good to me.

9th place

Thanks. When did you buy?

Pre redesign in late 03, I do like the wheels on mine better than the new ones though.  I really enjoy the little car and if you wind it out you can make it move nicely.  If you keep the rpms down you can get 32-38 mpg but for spirited 4k and above it drops to about 15-19.  We've had great luck with it so far and we drive the hell out of it.  I think it's approaching 70k miles now, that's why we are going to pick the wife up a new car in early 06.

Pricing was significantly lower then IIRC, and not as many of the cars that placed ahead of it had come out yet.

[R33 GT-R]

Iffy, was the 230 you tested rolling on Conti rubber?  I was so happy to get those tires off of the car, I can't believe MB puts that shitty tire on at the factory.  I run the GY Eagle F1 GS-D3 and it totally changed the handling and feel of the car.  Higher speed sweeping turns that felt uncomfortable at 80 on the Contis are now handled at 100 and the car feels solid/stable throughout the turn.  When cornering hard on the Contis it felt like the wall broke down and the tire rolled onto its sidewall.  Very scary, but now it's smooth sailing.

[ifcar]

Iffy, was the 230 you tested rolling on Conti rubber?  I was so happy to get those tires off of the car, I can't believe MB puts that shitty tire on at the factory.  I run the GY Eagle F1 GS-D3 and it totally changed the handling and feel of the car.  Higher speed sweeping turns that felt uncomfortable at 80 on the Contis are now handled at 100 and the car feels solid/stable throughout the turn.  When cornering hard on the Contis it felt like the wall broke down and the tire rolled onto its sidewall.  Very scary, but now it's smooth sailing.

If that's the standard tire, that's what was on the C230 I drove.  

[R33 GT-R]

That was long, I read the intro went over the vehicle details then quickly mushing through the places then the evaluation.? My car came in 20th, oh well it works for us.? That's such a broad spectrum you have there the apples and oranges are over the place.? It seemed well written and looked pretty good to me.

9th place

Thanks. When did you buy?

Pre redesign in late 03, I do like the wheels on mine better than the new ones though.  I really enjoy the little car and if you wind it out you can make it move nicely.  If you keep the rpms down you can get 32-38 mpg but for spirited 4k and above it drops to about 15-19.  We've had great luck with it so far and we drive the hell out of it.  I think it's approaching 70k miles now, that's why we are going to pick the wife up a new car in early 06.

Pricing was significantly lower then IIRC, and not as many of the cars that placed ahead of it had come out yet.

I was trying to talk the wife into the G35 but she was set on the little Kompressor.  A bit sporty looking and all MB look so good in black.

[FlatBlackCaddy]

pfft, TL in first. <_<

You have the driving spirit of a 80 year old women.

[R33 GT-R]

Iffy, was the 230 you tested rolling on Conti rubber?  I was so happy to get those tires off of the car, I can't believe MB puts that shitty tire on at the factory.  I run the GY Eagle F1 GS-D3 and it totally changed the handling and feel of the car.  Higher speed sweeping turns that felt uncomfortable at 80 on the Contis are now handled at 100 and the car feels solid/stable throughout the turn.  When cornering hard on the Contis it felt like the wall broke down and the tire rolled onto its sidewall.  Very scary, but now it's smooth sailing.

If that's the standard tire, that's what was on the C230 I drove.

Well there are two standards one crappy one decent.  You either get the Conti or the Pilot, I would have much rather had the Pilot.  If you heard lots of road noise and even some tire whine at times you had Contis the Michelin offers a softer ride without the whine and poor characteristics.  I think this is an area grossly overlooked when vehicles are tested, especially handling characteristics.  Of course the suspension setup is critical to ride but also the rubber has a great effect on it as well.  I don't think the guys making the big bucks pay enough attention to this detail.

[ifcar]

Iffy, was the 230 you tested rolling on Conti rubber?  I was so happy to get those tires off of the car, I can't believe MB puts that shitty tire on at the factory.  I run the GY Eagle F1 GS-D3 and it totally changed the handling and feel of the car.  Higher speed sweeping turns that felt uncomfortable at 80 on the Contis are now handled at 100 and the car feels solid/stable throughout the turn.  When cornering hard on the Contis it felt like the wall broke down and the tire rolled onto its sidewall.  Very scary, but now it's smooth sailing.

If that's the standard tire, that's what was on the C230 I drove.

Well there are two standards one crappy one decent.  You either get the Conti or the Pilot, I would have much rather had the Pilot.  If you heard lots of road noise and even some tire whine at times you had Contis the Michelin offers a softer ride without the whine and poor characteristics.  I think this is an area grossly overlooked when vehicles are tested, especially handling characteristics.  Of course the suspension setup is critical to ride but also the rubber has a great effect on it as well.  I don't think the guys making the big bucks pay enough attention to this detail.

Nope, no significant noise there.  

[TBR]

How about you actually compare cars that compete? No one is going to compare the Lexus ES330, 300, and Avalon with cars like the 325i and G35.

[ifcar]

How about you actually compare cars that compete? No one is going to compare the Lexus ES330, 300, and Avalon with cars like the 325i and G35.

In fact, I do no someone who cross-shopped the ES330 with the G35 (and the TL) simply because it was Japanese, not because it was sporty.

Also, I addressed this twice in this topic already, as well as in the comparo itself. Read before you criticize next time.  

[TBR]

You think I am going to spemd 30 minutes reading that thing? Not likely, I just flipped through the page.

[TBR]

Also:
"Also, I addressed this twice in this topic already, as well as in the comparo itself. Read before you criticize next time."

No, you haven't. How about you read before you criticize.  

[ifcar]

Also:
"Also, I addressed this twice in this topic already, as well as in the comparo itself. Read before you criticize next time."

No, you haven't. How about you read before you criticize.

From the first post in this thread:

"I am not going to be fielding comments about the reasoning behind including almost everything that fell within the $29,000-$35,000 price range, it is explained on the comparison's main page."

and

"And, as noted, I don't think I need to discuss the reasoning behind choosing not to separate the cars into distinct groups, for the reasons already explained on the site."

That should be enough to direct you to the site, where it would be hard to miss:

"Obviously, not all twenty-six cars are direct competitors. Some are designed with drastically different audiences in mind, and it could be said that attempts should be made to separate these vehicles into different comparisons that better-reflect their individual purposes. But quite simply, readers wishing to see the review with certain vehicles omitted only need to skip past their pages, but those wishing to see a vehicle in the test that was excluded based on its intended audience would be out of luck. Also, all twenty-six vehicles are essentially competing for the buyers looking for an upscale sedan in the low $30,000s."

[TBR]

In both of those quotes you simply said you weren't going to talk about it, what happened to intelligent debate?  

[ifcar]

In both of those quotes you simply said you weren't going to talk about it, what happened to intelligent debate?

Both of those quotes said where to find my explanation. And neither were sufficient to prevent three people already from either ignoring or not seeing the explanation, as I have already recieved three comments, at varying levels of politeness, that the cars ought to be placed in lots of little groups.

If I trusted people to bring it up in a form of intelligent debate (which they have not) I wouldn't have felt the need to insert those sentences.  

[TBR]

If you're explanation wasn't bogus perhaps there wouldn't be comments.  

[TBR]

And, I attempted to begin an intelligent debate, you however will not participate.

[ifcar]

No, beginning an intelligent debate would be arguing against my reasons (which weren't put on the site so I could practice typing) for making that decision instead of just the decision.

[ifcar]

If you're explanation wasn't bogus perhaps there wouldn't be comments.

Oh, and that's real intelligent as well.    

[TBR]

Fine then, since you want me to do all of the work :

If you want people to be able to compare cross segment (though don't even pretend that people make car buying choices based on your comparos or really even consider them when making choices), use a rating system, but putting 26 cars on a comparo makes it completely unmanagable, especially since you have to click on each place to figure out what car it is. At least have an index or something that includes the cars' names. People are just as likely to cross shop a Avalon and 325i as they are to cross shop an Avalon and Suburban yet you didn't put the Avalon in the large suv comparo.

[ifcar]

The comparison test is supposed to be read through. I originally included the cars' names in the URLs, but then people would just scroll through the link to find the order, maybe click on one car. It's supposed to flow through, and making people see all the choices can help give them information about a car they might not have considered.

And of course a 325i and Avalon don't compete directly, but a chain could be set up to link between them.

[TBR]

What happens if people don't want to waste a lot of time looking at cars they aren't considering? And, a chain could be connected to the Avalon and Suburban also, but that doesn't mean they should be in the same comparo.  

[ifcar]

What happens if people don't want to waste a lot of time looking at cars they aren't considering? And, a chain could be connected to the Avalon and Suburban also, but that doesn't mean they should be in the same comparo.

Then those people (you, it seems) will have to deal with it.

And a closer chain can be made between two equally-priced sedans than a sedan and a more-expensive SUV.