Screw the 330d.. Bring the 316d over

[ChrisV]

edit; a thought just crossed my mind, why have we not yet seen a hybrid diesel?  Would one be capable of 70mpg?

Part of what a modern hybrid does is engine shutoff, and I think that restarting the diesel, especially after a long period of not running, quickly enough is part of the hurdle that they can't overcome yet, as well as startup emissions levels.

[Raza]

The current Roundel magazine (the magazine of the BMW Club of America) has an article about living with the 335d for a week out in Vegas (and out in the desert around it). Summary, great big block gobs of torque down low, but runs out of breath quickly. Great fuel mileage but the sound of the diesel is still there (though the smell isn't). And they said the handling was numb. You could squirt nicely between corners, but really wasn't any fun in the corners.

Neither was the 335i when I drove it, honestly.  So it's not much of a departure. 

[the Teuton]

The current Roundel magazine (the magazine of the BMW Club of America) has an article about living with the 335d for a week out in Vegas (and out in the desert around it). Summary, great big block gobs of torque down low, but runs out of breath quickly. Great fuel mileage but the sound of the diesel is still there (though the smell isn't). And they said the handling was numb. You could squirt nicely between corners, but really wasn't any fun in the corners.

Most of the same could be said for most gas 3er models.  Seriously.  Test drive one if you don't believe me.

[ChrisV]

Most of the same could be said for most gas 3er models.  Seriously.  Test drive one if you don't believe me.

*sigh*

They were comparing it TO a gas 3 series. It was more numb and much less fun in the twisties than the gas 3 series.

[hounddog]

Part of what a modern hybrid does is engine shutoff, and I think that restarting the diesel, especially after a long period of not running, quickly enough is part of the hurdle that they can't overcome yet, as well as startup emissions levels.

I can understand the second part, but quick starting should not be THAT difficult to overcome with a modified glow plug. 

Or so it would seem.

[the Teuton]

*sigh*

They were comparing it TO a gas 3 series. It was more numb and much less fun in the twisties than the gas 3 series.

Most are rather sedate, though.

[ChrisV]

Most are rather sedate, though.

Which would make a diesel one that is commented on as being even more numb even less inspiring to think about, doesn't it? Which is the point.

I swear I'm speaking english, but the conversation is still one sided...

[the Teuton]

Ich spreche kein Englisch.  Was sagst du?

[cawimmer430]

There's a difference between riding around in a luxury car like an Escalade or DTS and a luxury car like the 3-series. Buyers who choose a 3-series for the most part want some semblance or sportiness, and while acceleration isn't everything, 116 hp pulling you to 60 mph in 11 seconds is unacceptable for a modern US-spec BMW.

I'm sure that the vast majority of 3 series buyers in the US buy / want them because Car and Driver always puts it on their 10 Best list.   

Seriously, the majority of 3 series buyers in the US probably want the name or badge and never fully exploit the capabilities of it. A 316d would be suitable for those who want the car but aren't performance oriented. Ok, so a 316d might be a little lame but a 320d or 325d could be an interesting alternative.

And people don't care now if their BMW's are slower than a GTI, because GTI's have always been pretty quick in relation to its contemporaries. It's when their BMW's are slower than cars that are supposed to be slow that it becomes a problem (a more accurate comparison from the 70's would be the 4-cylinder Ford Pinto).

Why is this such a big deal? I really don't get it.

Here in Europe we have base BMW 318d's (now 316d's) or Mercedes C200 CDI's which are much slower than a Citroen C5 V6 or Renault Laguna V6 - and nobody here really cares if that is the case. If you want a faster than a V6 C5/Laguna 3er or C-Class you go for the 335i or C350. It's that simple.

[cawimmer430]

North Americans won't even buy a compact ('economy') car with only 116 hp anymore.

x infinity

[ChrisV]

But Wimmer, in Europe, BMWs and Mercedes are used as fleet taxis. You know how much Americans hate buying cars that reek of fleet sales...

[cawimmer430]

But Wimmer, in Europe, BMWs and Mercedes are used as fleet taxis. You know how much Americans hate buying cars that reek of fleet sales...

I really need to take an education class on American Automotive Consumer Behavior 101.  

[Vinsanity]

I'm sure that the vast majority of 3 series buyers in the US buy / want them because Car and Driver always puts it on their 10 Best list.    

So what happens when the car rags start ragging on the embarrassingly underpowered 1.6L diesel?

Seriously, the majority of 3 series buyers in the US probably want the name or badge and never fully exploit the capabilities of it.

Does that make it ok to piss away the reputation the company has earned?

Why is this such a big deal? I really don't get it.

Here in Europe we have base BMW 318d's (now 316d's) or Mercedes C200 CDI's which are much slower than a Citroen C5 V6 or Renault Laguna V6 - and nobody here really cares if that is the case. If you want a faster than a V6 C5/Laguna 3er or C-Class you go for the 335i or C350. It's that simple.

Again, noone cares if their 325i might be outgunned by a Maxima or V6 Camry, which are a bit quicker than the average new car. My point is that they'll care if their 316d is outgunned by a Prius or late-model Scion XB, which are much slower than the average new car.

[Raza]

I really need to take an education class on American Automotive Consumer Behavior 101. 

Wims, you get up in arms about history, heritage, and tradition; in America we don't want to get outrun by a horse and buggy, especially if we paid a premium for our car (like you would in a BMW). 

[GoCougs]

Indeed I did, turns out BMW BYO doesn't list that in MSRP. Regardless, the difference remains $2275.

I did not concern myself with the price difference, only that the 335d base MSRP was ~$45k, and that C&D's mileage payback calculation versus the 328i and 335i was financially untenable:  

vs. 328i: 960,000
vs. 335i: 193,000

[cawimmer430]

So what happens when the car rags start ragging on the embarrassingly underpowered 1.6L diesel?

Car rags?

Does that make it ok to piss away the reputation the company has earned?

How can this reputation be lost by one model? I would think people there are smart enough to realize that if they want a 3-Series that is quicker than a Prius then they can BUY one. The 316d isn't appropriate for the US market, I realize that, but a 320d or 325d might be something interesting. Some people care about gas mileage more in a premium car or sporty car and something like a 320d or 325d might be just what they're looking for. Handles well and is quick enough.

[cawimmer430]

Wims, you get up in arms about history, heritage, and tradition; in America we don't want to get outrun by a horse and buggy, especially if we paid a premium for our car (like you would in a BMW). 

[Vinsanity]

Car rags?

it's a corrupted slang that originated from "car magazine" -> "car mag" -> "car rag"

How can this reputation be lost by one model? I would think people there are smart enough to realize that if they want a 3-Series that is quicker than a Prius then they can BUY one. The 316d isn't appropriate for the US market, I realize that, but a 320d or 325d might be something interesting. Some people care about gas mileage more in a premium car or sporty car and something like a 320d or 325d might be just what they're looking for. Handles well and is quick enough.

Yeah, and in the 80's, GM figured that if people wanted a Caddy that's nicer than a Cimarron, they can just pay extra for one also.

[Colin]

The discussion in this thread reinforces, in spades, the different priorities between a US market buyer and a European one.

In Europe, badge prestige has become far more important in the last 20 years or so, with the 3 series now outselling the Ford Mondeo, for instance, but the reality is that the cost of owning and running a car play a fundamental part in most people's decision criteria. With fuel at not far short of $10 a gallon, and annual road tax fees in most European countries which vary from expensive to totally crippling, it is no surprise that vehicles produced specially to reduce the owning cost by (in most cases) artificially getting under any thresholds look very attractive.

With annual taxation moving to CO2 based limits in Europe, and the bar getting higher every year, it is no wonder that cars with high gearing, and any other trick that can be deployed to get the COs rating way down are flooding from the manufacturers. There's a double hit, that cars that are costly to run have much steeper depreciation, so as well as costing more to buy, and to run, they are worth less..........

I saw my very first Mondeo 2.5T the other day, a car that has been on sale for 2 years. Renault recently announced that they would kill the 204bhp GT version of the Laguna, because so few people buy it.............. in the UK, where the 3 series is in thge Top 10 seller list, only about 1% of sales for the 335i petrol, and not a lot more are of the 335d. It is predicted that fewer than 5% of the new E Class will be petrol engined in the UK.

This is all very different to the US, where fuel is still relatively very cheap, and the obsession with 0 - 60 times seems to matter far more than anything else. There is plenty of space for large cars, which in Europe we do not have on our congested roads and cities, with minimal parking places........ I did note that when US gas reached $5 a gallong, people did stop buying big trucks and SUVs, so presume that if the price goes high enough, people will eventually start to have some of the same priorities as are forced upon Europeans. It will be painful for you all on the other side of the Pond, but the day will surely come..............

(PS: No, I would not want a 316d, either, but I predict a huge number of people will!).       

[ChrisV]

I really need to take an education class on American Automotive Consumer Behavior 101. 

There is no single American automotive buyer. You have city dwellers, suburban people, farm people, country folk. You have people that spend many months in crappy winter weather, and people that never see snow. You have people that live in mountainous or coastal regions with lots of twisty backraods, and you have people that live in the midwest with straight roads that run for hundreds of miles without a corner. This is a nation that spans 3500 miles east to west, with climates that range from England cold to Italy hot.



For example, Iowa's a state that's big enough to be it's own country in Europe. Look at these roads:



A comfy, solid sedan or truck is the best choice out here.

On the other hand, California hyw 1 almost doesn't have a straight stretch on it...



You have brand conscious buyers, and buyers who just want value. Buyers who wouldn't be seen in a low end car, and buyers who hate the image of high end cars. So really, in that regard, not that much differnt than what you're used to. But, more of our contry is spread out, between the cities, and a solid car, that's cheap and easy to get parts/service for, is a driving concern for most of middle America.

[Raza]

That's a good point, Chris.  I think a lot of Europeans forget that within one of our states, we have enough diversity, in people and in topography, and real estate for it to be a whole European country.  When I went to school in the middle of the state, I met people who were shocked that I could leave the state in 20 minutes, or go out of state in something even smaller scale than a daytrip.  Our country is the size of western Europe, so it's not easy to typify the American consumer in the car market.

[cawimmer430]

it's a corrupted slang that originated from "car magazine" -> "car mag" -> "car rag"

Honestly, I learned to stop listening to what car magazines said a long time - German or American. Most car magazines are so performance oriented it is sickening. I love how generally Car and Driver always thinks BMW makes the benchmark in every class: 3-Series and 5-Series - and that every car from their rivals should try and emulate the BMW handling and steering feel. Why should they? Car companies know what sells their product and what their target market wants. Car magazines and especially most of the moronic 20 year old "car enthusiasts" we have on other forums should really STFU. 

Yeah, and in the 80's, GM figured that if people wanted a Caddy that's nicer than a Cimarron, they can just pay extra for one also.

Here's the issue. A base model shouldn't be burdened with the same expectations as a higher end model. The folks going for a 316d will know it will be slower than some mainstream cars. Big deal. If they want performance they have to pay for it. And someone who can afford a 316d can easily afford a 320d or a 325d or even a 335d. But they WANT the 316d because they want a 3-Series that looks good, handles and drives well, is reasonably quick but also fuel efficient.

I've said it before here that I realize the 316d is probably not the right car for the US, but a 320d and 325d might be alluring as an entry-level BMW 3er. They're faster than a Prius I believe. 

[cawimmer430]

There is no single American automotive buyer. You have city dwellers, suburban people, farm people, country folk. You have people that spend many months in crappy winter weather, and people that never see snow. You have people that live in mountainous or coastal regions with lots of twisty backraods, and you have people that live in the midwest with straight roads that run for hundreds of miles without a corner. This is a nation that spans 3500 miles east to west, with climates that range from England cold to Italy hot.

You have brand conscious buyers, and buyers who just want value. Buyers who wouldn't be seen in a low end car, and buyers who hate the image of high end cars. So really, in that regard, not that much differnt than what you're used to. But, more of our contry is spread out, between the cities, and a solid car, that's cheap and easy to get parts/service for, is a driving concern for most of middle America.

Thanks for the lecture. 

Looking at Iowa, are those dead straight highways I see!? Think of the gas mileage one could achieve on those in a 316d at cruising speed! 

[93JC]

Fuel economy is still a much less important buying consideration in North America than it is in Europe. There are no displacement taxes. There are no CO2 taxes. There are much lower fuel taxes.

For a typical BMW owner, fuel economy is just not that big a deal. Let's assume a 3-series owner buys their car for $35,000. He or she puts $15,000 down, and finances the rest over three years (36 months). Let's assume 0% interest for the sake of making this calculation easier.

$35,000-$15,000 down = $20,000 financed / 36 months = $555.55 monthly payments

$1,200 insurance per year / 12 months = $100 monthly insurance

Assume this person drives 20,000 miles per year (I think the actual average is closer to 15,000 (~24,000 km)). Assume gasoline is $2.00/USgal, and a fuel economy average of 24 mpg.

20,000 miles / 24 mpg = 833.33 gal / year / 12 months = 69.44 gal/mth
69.44 gal/mth x $2.00.gal = $138.89/mth on gasoline

So, in a month, a 3-series driver will spend $794.44 on his car, not including maintenance. Of that $794.44, only 17.5% is for fuel. The difference between a 3-series getting 40 mpg and a 3-series getting 24 mpg is only a monthly cost of $55.56, or 7%.

$55.56 won't make or break a BMW owner. A 7% difference in monthly costs is not significant enough for someone to chose a 316d over a 335i.

[Vinsanity]

Here's the issue. A base model shouldn't be burdened with the same expectations as a higher end model. The folks going for a 316d will know it will be slower than some mainstream cars. Big deal. If they want performance they have to pay for it. And someone who can afford a 316d can easily afford a 320d or a 325d or even a 335d. But they WANT the 316d because they want a 3-Series that looks good, handles and drives well, is reasonably quick but also fuel efficient.

I've said it before here that I realize the 316d is probably not the right car for the US, but a 320d and 325d might be alluring as an entry-level BMW 3er. They're faster than a Prius I believe. 

I wouldn't call the 316d "reasonably quick" by any stretch of the imagination.

Although a 325d would be interesting, I think a 120d or 123d would make more sense as an entry model for BMW.

[nickdrinkwater]

Wait a minute.  How much power (HP and torque) does the Prius have and what are its emissions?  Moreover, what about that Lexus hybrid that's coming out (based on the Prius)?  I doubt either are significantly more powerful than the 316d.  The Prius sells, and I bet that Lexus will be a big hit too.  If those cars can do well, why not the 316d?

It's all about perception.  If you could convince people that this is as green and cool as a hybrid (it probably is), it would sell pretty well I think.  Shit, you could even badge it 'hybrid' instead of diesel and they would fly off the lots!  Remember, people will buy anything with a BMW badge on it.

[Colin]

Yes, very true, Nick..... but even though diesel is now a tad cheaper than gasoline (petrol in the US, the majority still believe that this is the devil's fuel, just full of soot and appallingly noxious emissions....... I don't know who spread and perpetuated the anti-propaganda, but I have my suspicions.

Go back to 93Jc's analsysis............ that explains it all. If Americans had to pay CO2 based road taxes with the sort of penalties that we are starting to see in Europe, I think it would start to encourage the same sort of change in attitude there as we have seen here, Without them, I quite understand why they all want the most powerful model in the range not the green (or blue) one.

[Raza]

Wait a minute.  How much power (HP and torque) does the Prius have and what are its emissions?  Moreover, what about that Lexus hybrid that's coming out (based on the Prius)?  I doubt either are significantly more powerful than the 316d.  The Prius sells, and I bet that Lexus will be a big hit too.  If those cars can do well, why not the 316d?

It's all about perception.  If you could convince people that this is as green and cool as a hybrid (it probably is), it would sell pretty well I think.  Shit, you could even badge it 'hybrid' instead of diesel and they would fly off the lots!  Remember, people will buy anything with a BMW badge on it.

The Prius sells big, hybrids do not.  Any hybrid that looks like a regular model sells quite poorly. 

[Vinsanity]

Gen II Prius: 2900 lbs / 110 hp
Gen III Prius: 3042 lbs / 134 hp
Lexus HS250: ???? lbs / 187 hp

BMW 316d: ~3300 lbs / 116 hp

[cawimmer430]

Fuel economy is still a much less important buying consideration in North America than it is in Europe. There are no displacement taxes. There are no CO2 taxes. There are much lower fuel taxes.

For a typical BMW owner, fuel economy is just not that big a deal. Let's assume a 3-series owner buys their car for $35,000. He or she puts $15,000 down, and finances the rest over three years (36 months). Let's assume 0% interest for the sake of making this calculation easier.

$35,000-$15,000 down = $20,000 financed / 36 months = $555.55 monthly payments

$1,200 insurance per year / 12 months = $100 monthly insurance

Assume this person drives 20,000 miles per year (I think the actual average is closer to 15,000 (~24,000 km)). Assume gasoline is $2.00/USgal, and a fuel economy average of 24 mpg.

20,000 miles / 24 mpg = 833.33 gal / year / 12 months = 69.44 gal/mth
69.44 gal/mth x $2.00.gal = $138.89/mth on gasoline

So, in a month, a 3-series driver will spend $794.44 on his car, not including maintenance. Of that $794.44, only 17.5% is for fuel. The difference between a 3-series getting 40 mpg and a 3-series getting 24 mpg is only a monthly cost of $55.56, or 7%.

$55.56 won't make or break a BMW owner. A 7% difference in monthly costs is not significant enough for someone to chose a 316d over a 335i.

I see your point and you explained it quite well. 

But aren't there some buyers who are interested in better mileage for whom say a 325d entry-level model might be alluring enough?