Screw the 330d.. Bring the 316d over

[cawimmer430]

I wouldn't call the 316d "reasonably quick" by any stretch of the imagination.

I'm speaking in "European terms". 

Although a 325d would be interesting, I think a 120d or 123d would make more sense as an entry model for BMW.

Most American car forums I scout (to see what is said on them) seem to have a very negative opinion about the 1-Series. I think you know the insults that are hurled at it and BMW. 

[Vinsanity]

I see your point and you explained it quite well.  

But aren't there some buyers who are interested in better mileage for whom say a 325d entry-level model might be alluring enough?

Someone THAT bent on mpg would have to be convinced it's worth the extra price over a Prius (which itself isn't even worth the extra price over a Corolla). A 325d and 120d is the lowest I'd go.

[Vinsanity]

I'm speaking in "European terms". 

Well, they're already selling the car in Europe, so they're not the ones who need to be convinced. I ain't paying $30 grand for a car that takes 20 seconds to cover 1/4 mile.

Most American car forums I scout (to see what is said on them) seem to have a very negative opinion about the 1-Series. I think you know the insults that are hurled at it and BMW. 

I used to not care for the 1-series myself, but it's grown on me. My ex-gf got a 128 convertible soon after they came out, and although too pricey, it's a neat little car.

[MexicoCityM3]

I think I'd take Wimmer's side on this. For some reason power=luxury in the U.S. I tend to lean towards the European view on this where the two are separate and there is nothing wrong with getting the car you want with whatever level of power you need.

[Vinsanity]

I think I'd take Wimmer's side on this. For some reason power=luxury in the U.S. I tend to lean towards the European view on this where the two are separate and there is nothing wrong with getting the car you want with whatever level of power you need.

Yeah, but BMW's are supposed to be sporty. Cadillac can probably get away with selling Escalades with 5.3L engines instead of 6.0, and DTS's with 3.6L V6's instead of the Northstar, but people expect BMW's to be quick. Or at least stay ahead of Corollas and Honda Fits in an acceleration sprint.

[cawimmer430]

Well, they're already selling the car in Europe, so they're not the ones who need to be convinced. I ain't paying $30 grand for a car that takes 20 seconds to cover 1/4 mile.

Why is the 1/4 mile so important? 

[Vinsanity]

Why is the 1/4 mile so important? 

It's just a general metric used to gauge the overall acceleration abilities of the car. Something that accelerates that slowly isn't going to have any passing power on the highway, and will be scary to pull onto a main road from a side street or driveway.

[Raza]

I see your point and you explained it quite well. 

But aren't there some buyers who are interested in better mileage for whom say a 325d entry-level model might be alluring enough?

I'd consider it, personally.  Though I'd be more likely to adopt a 1 series diesel than a 3 series diesel (mainly because I'd be more likely to buy a 1er than a 3er).

[Raza]

I think I'd take Wimmer's side on this. For some reason power=luxury in the U.S. I tend to lean towards the European view on this where the two are separate and there is nothing wrong with getting the car you want with whatever level of power you need.

What is a luxury?  It's something you don't need, but like to have, right?

So where is the luxury in an expensive car with a fairly cheap interior that can get outrun by a smugmobile like the Prius?

[Xer0]

As people have already said, a 316d would bomb in the US.  You have to keep in mind; powerful cars here don't have the price artificially inflated anywhere near as much as they do in Europe so we don't have to make a compromise.  There just isn?t much incentive, or at least very little, to buy a 316d over a 328i.  And, since the difference will be primarily in the engine, I doubt the main price difference would be that great either.  The 316d will be sold here when it has to be sold and not before that.

[cawimmer430]

It's just a general metric used to gauge the overall acceleration abilities of the car. Something that accelerates that slowly isn't going to have any passing power on the highway, and will be scary to pull onto a main road from a side street or driveway.

Don't you guys measure the 1/4 based on 0-60 or 5-60 mph (flying start)?

Man, I remember the days on Car and Driver when people told me my families 2002 Mercedes E320 was "underpowered" (224-hp V6) and "slow" - and I can overtake with that thing with ease. Midrange power of most modern cars is completely adequate regardless of their 1/4 mile performance. I'll wait until the 316d is tested but with its diesel torque and BMW's knack for correct gearing it should be just fine and dandy. 

[omicron]

If I lived in a land where more powerful engines for a given model are priced so amazingly close to lesser ones, I wouldn't be clamouring for a 4-cylinder 3 or a diesel, either. I do find it interesting, however, that in a market as large as that of the US there isn't sufficient demand to warrant the introduction of smaller-engined or diesel variants as extra choice for consumers.

[Vinsanity]

Don't you guys measure the 1/4 based on 0-60 or 5-60 mph (flying start)?

Man, I remember the days on Car and Driver when people told me my families 2002 Mercedes E320 was "underpowered" (224-hp V6) and "slow" - and I can overtake with that thing with ease. Midrange power of most modern cars is completely adequate regardless of their 1/4 mile performance. I'll wait until the 316d is tested but with its diesel torque and BMW's knack for correct gearing it should be just fine and dandy. 

1/4 mile (400m) times are based on standing starts. Edmunds provides a second 1/4 mile time with 1 foot of rollout, which usually shaves off a tenth or two.

I wouldn't call a 224-hp E-Class slow by any means, but it has almost twice as much power as a 316d ... which can use all the torque and ideal gearing it can get to go up against the mighty Prius's torquey electric motor + CVT (always in the "right gear")

[cawimmer430]

Well, I guess we won't get anywhere here. The American and European car markets and consumers have totally different expectations. 

[the Teuton]

Well, I guess we won't get anywhere here. The American and European car markets and consumers have totally different expectations. 

You mean we expect cars that can quickly get up to highway speeds?

[MexicoCityM3]

You mean we expect cars that can quickly get up to highway speeds?

I find it funny all of you mentioning how important is it to quickly accelerate to highway speeds on American, 65 mph highways. A 10 second car will do fine where a semi truck can do it. American highways have huge on-ramps. I have rented slow cars when traveling in the U.S. and its no problem at all to merge. This "safety" argument about why everyone need s a sub-8 second car is bullshit.

[the Teuton]

I find it funny all of you mentioning how important is it to quickly accelerate to highway speeds on American, 65 mph highways. A 10 second car will do fine where a semi truck can do it. American highways have huge on-ramps. I have rented slow cars when traveling in the U.S. and its no problem at all to merge. This "safety" argument about why everyone need s a sub-8 second car is bullshit.

I drive a car that, when it was new, hit 60 mph in 12.4 seconds.  Add another second or two onto that today realistically.

I'm talking about the really underpowered cars.  And yes, there are times when 110 hp in a 2,700 lbs. car isn't enough I feel.

[TBR]

I find it funny all of you mentioning how important is it to quickly accelerate to highway speeds on American, 65 mph highways. A 10 second car will do fine where a semi truck can do it. American highways have huge on-ramps. I have rented slow cars when traveling in the U.S. and its no problem at all to merge. This "safety" argument about why everyone need s a sub-8 second car is bullshit.

Most are, but get into some cities and there are some pretty damn short ones. Especially here on the east coast where they are absolutely obsessed with clover leaves.

[Raza]

I find it funny all of you mentioning how important is it to quickly accelerate to highway speeds on American, 65 mph highways. A 10 second car will do fine where a semi truck can do it. American highways have huge on-ramps. I have rented slow cars when traveling in the U.S. and its no problem at all to merge. This "safety" argument about why everyone need s a sub-8 second car is bullshit.

Yes, we have 55-70mph speed limits.  We also have seatbelt laws, laws dictating that you have to use a turn signal, et al.


That all has little bearing on how people drive.

[Raza]

Most are, but get into some cities and there are some pretty damn short ones. Especially here on the east coast where they are absolutely obsessed with clover leaves.

We don't really have those up north, just so you know.  Jersey has a lot of jughandles, but that's not exactly the same.  Cloverleaves were a little new to me when I went down to the Carolinas (although they're kind of like a bunch of jughandles connected).

[Colonel Cadillac]

BMW really ought to bring it over, pump some money into advertising ("achieves better gas mileage than both Toyota Prius and Honda Insight" is a pretty powerful statement) and people will flock to the 316d.

[Raza]

BMW really ought to bring it over, pump some money into advertising ("achieves better gas mileage than both Toyota Prius and Honda Insight" is a pretty powerful statement) and people will flock to the 316d.

Only if they give it some funny name.

"Better gas mileage than both the Toyota Prius and Honda Insight.  World renowned handling.  The Ultimate Driving Machine.  The Ultimate Environmental Machine. 

Introducing the BMW 316d Green Motion."

[Vinsanity]

BMW 3-series GreenDrive16d

ugh. I hate it even more.

[ChrisV]

I find it funny all of you mentioning how important is it to quickly accelerate to highway speeds on American, 65 mph highways. A 10 second car will do fine where a semi truck can do it. American highways have huge on-ramps. I have rented slow cars when traveling in the U.S. and its no problem at all to merge. This "safety" argument about why everyone need s a sub-8 second car is bullshit.

Many interstates have long onramps, but there are a TON of 55mph secondary roads that have NO on ramps, just a 90 degree turn onto the road. Or your home driveway connects directly to said 55 mph road (my parents driveway, where I grew up, was directly on a 55 mph road, that had a blind corner less than 30 yards away, so pulling out was an excersize in top accelleration).

Then there are the multi-lane divided highways that are one step down from interstates, like, say, the Merritt Parkway in Connecticut, where the onramps are barely a carlength long, if that.



That entrance is 2 carlengths long, and right before a bridge so there is no merge room. You come around a 20 mph corner and have to get up to speed FAST. And there are dozens like that on that highway alone.

[Tave]

Your Fiat can't be faster than a 10-second 0-60, is it?

[ChrisV]

Your Fiat can't be faster than a 10-second 0-60, is it?

It was about 8 seconds, and sometimes pulling out of a driveway on a fast road was scary. OTOH, I never drove it on a road connecting to the Merritt.

But my folk's driveway was part of why I built so many quick cars.

[Colonel Cadillac]

It was about 8 seconds, and sometimes pulling out of a driveway on a fast road was scary. OTOH, I never drove it on a road connecting to the Merritt.

But my folk's driveway was part of why I built so many quick cars.

Love the Merritt. Getting on is a great excuse to floor it.

[Cookie Monster]

I hate highways that have a short onramp (2 carlengths or so) and then 4 carlengths later there's the exit so you have to merge while others are taking the exit. I've had to nail the accelerator on the Accord before to get it up to speed and merge onto the highway before I get tangled with people getting off the highway.

[omicron]

But then again, we have exactly the same things here in Oz and they still manage to sell a whole lot of slow-moving eco-socks. It's probably a factor, but one of many.

[Madman]

Considering Volkswagen can't keep Jetta diesels in stock and they are one of the few cars selling ABOVE sticker price right now, it seems there IS a market for fuel efficient diesels in America.  I agree with Wimmer and think the 320d or 325d would sell over here if only BMW brought them over.

It's not 1978 anymore.  Diesels are no longer loud, smelly and slow.  Welcome to 2009.


Cheers,
Madman of the People