GM having trouble with G6 rectractable hardtop

[ifcar]

Top troubles plague G6 convertible; parts fail on key Pontiac product

DETROIT -- General Motors' problems with the Pontiac G6 convertible continue to mount.

Engineering problems already have forced GM to delay the launch of the retractable hardtop from next month until January 2006. Now those troubles threaten to push the start of production further into next year and could lead to cancellation of the program.

The G6 convertible is important to GM because the division desperately needs exciting products. Like the Solstice roadster, the convertible is meant to be a halo vehicle for the brand.

But four supplier and industry sources familiar with the program say the car's hardtop, which is supplied by Karmann USA Inc. of Plymouth, Mich., has flunked durability tests.

The top is supposed to survive two life cycles of openings and closings, for a total of 16,000 to 20,000 cycles, supplier sources say. But a supplier close to the program says the roof has failed after fewer than 10,000 cycles.

A poor fit between the deck lid and rear fenders is another problem, the source says.

'Damaged from the start'

"The whole program has been damaged from the start," one industry analyst says. "There has been a lot that has gone wrong."

Oliver Wehage, a Karmann vice president, insists the top meets GM specifications. He would not provide details of testing, except to say that Karmann in some cases created "overloading situations" for its internal research.

GM spokesman Jim Hopson said the convertible's top "meets and exceeds" all of the automaker's current life-cycle requirements, but declined to say what those requirements are.

"I've never been involved in a vehicle program that didn't have some problems," he says. "Our intention, at this point, is to have the vehicle available in the first quarter of 2006."

That's a slight shift from GM's position of Feb. 28, when it said the convertible would launch in January. Supplier sources say the launch originally was scheduled for September 2005.

GM has thrown two dozen engineers at the problem in a bid to keep the program on track. But GM has minimal experience with the technology. The only recent examples are the retractable hardtops on the Cadillac XLR and Chevrolet SSR.

The tops for both come from outside suppliers.

March target

A GM insider says the automaker needs to begin volume production by March. If that target cannot be met, he says, the program could be shelved because GM would not be able to amortize the vehicle's cost by the time the G6 is redesigned.

The automaker has not disclosed the planned sales volume for the convertible G6, which it has touted as one of the most economical retractable hardtops in the industry. The sticker price has been targeted around $30,000.

Pontiac had planned to bring out the G6 in waves. The sedan debuted last year. A coupe came out this month, and the convertible is next.

To create the convertible, the basic G6 had to be re-engineered because it was not designed to be an open-air vehicle. The convertible needs a stiffened underbody, and the interior must be redesigned to store the hardtop.

In February, a UAW official and a supplier source confirmed that GM had delayed the launch of the convertible four months, to January 2006, because of lingering engineering problems.

Miles Thompson, sales manager at Thompson Sales Co. in Springfield, Mo., which sells GMC, Cadillac, Pontiac and Saab, says his dealership will not order any convertibles until he has a better idea when they will arrive at dealerships.

"I'm not sure when we are going to get them," Thompson says. "We have no idea on allocation."

[BMWDave]

I saw a Coupe G6 on the dealership lot..it looked nice.

But anyway, this is bad news for GM, I hope they fix the problem soon.

[SJ_GTI]

The cars not even out yet, and we are already having articles about its bad quality.

Didn't the Solstice get repoirts just like this? It seemed to turn out fine.

Also, someone over at C&D pointed out that if a top can last 10,000 uses, that almost 30 years of usage assuming one usage per day.

[ifcar]

Apparently they expect more than that from a retractable hardtop.  

[SJ_GTI]

Apparently they expect more than that from a retractable hardtop.

Right...?

I did read the article you know.

[ifcar]

Apparently they expect more than that from a retractable hardtop.

Right...?

I did read the article you know.

Congratulations.  

Obviously they decided that its performance was not sufficient, and I would assume they know more what the number of cycles it could do means more than you would.  

[giant_mtb]

The biggest think I hate about the "all new" G6 is that in every single ad for it...they stress the fact that it's "all new"...WHO CARES!  Just shutup and let us look at the car...at least tell us about the car instead of telling us it's all new.  :angry:

Anyway...looks like the ALL NEW G6 isn't perfect.

[SJ_GTI]

Apparently they expect more than that from a retractable hardtop.

Right...?

I did read the article you know.

Congratulations.  

Obviously they decided that its performance was not sufficient, and I would assume they know more what the number of cycles it could do means more than you would.

::sigh::

I have definitely noticed on CarSpin alot of posters (not just you) have this need to "correct" other people.

I was not commenting on whether 10k or 20k is the right number. I just thought it was an interesting sidebar.

My problem is with the article itself, which causes people like giant_mtb to now think there is "somthing wrong" with the G6, when in fact there isn't anything wrong.

Its nothing unusual for a car to have preproduction issues while its in preproduction.

[BMWDave]

Apparently they expect more than that from a retractable hardtop.

Right...?

I did read the article you know.

Congratulations.  

Obviously they decided that its performance was not sufficient, and I would assume they know more what the number of cycles it could do means more than you would.

::sigh::

I have definitely noticed on CarSpin alot of posters (not just you) have this need to "correct" other people.

I was not commenting on whether 10k or 20k is the right number. I just thought it was an interesting sidebar.

My problem is with the article itself, which causes people like giant_mtb to now think there is "somthing wrong" with the G6, when in fact there isn't anything wrong.

Its nothing unusual for a car to have preproduction issues while its in preproduction.

But the car is almost near production, it doesnt have the time to work out such problems without delaying stuff, etc.  

[ifcar]

Apparently they expect more than that from a retractable hardtop.

Right...?

I did read the article you know.

Congratulations.  

Obviously they decided that its performance was not sufficient, and I would assume they know more what the number of cycles it could do means more than you would.

::sigh::

I have definitely noticed on CarSpin alot of posters (not just you) have this need to "correct" other people.

I was not commenting on whether 10k or 20k is the right number. I just thought it was an interesting sidebar.

My problem is with the article itself, which causes people like giant_mtb to now think there is "somthing wrong" with the G6, when in fact there isn't anything wrong.

Its nothing unusual for a car to have preproduction issues while its in preproduction.

"Now those troubles threaten to push the start of production further into next year and could lead to cancellation of the program."

That's news, whether you like it or not.  

[giant_mtb]

Apparently they expect more than that from a retractable hardtop.

Right...?

I did read the article you know.

Congratulations.  

Obviously they decided that its performance was not sufficient, and I would assume they know more what the number of cycles it could do means more than you would.

::sigh::

I have definitely noticed on CarSpin alot of posters (not just you) have this need to "correct" other people.

I was not commenting on whether 10k or 20k is the right number. I just thought it was an interesting sidebar.

My problem is with the article itself, which causes people like giant_mtb to now think there is "somthing wrong" with the G6, when in fact there isn't anything wrong.

Its nothing unusual for a car to have preproduction issues while its in preproduction.

Actually I did read the article...and there is something wrong with it when they're having troubles with the convertible top...

[SJ_GTI]

"Now those troubles threaten to push the start of production further into next year and could lead to cancellation of the program."

That's news, whether you like it or not.

Only if you are naive enough to think this is something unusual.

[ifcar]

"Now those troubles threaten to push the start of production further into next year and could lead to cancellation of the program."

That's news, whether you like it or not.

Only if you are naive enough to think this is something unusual.

It's not unusual for a much-hyped car that was already unveiled in its production form to be cancelled? Pray, tell us of the other similar cases.

[SJ_GTI]

Actually I did read the article...and there is something wrong with it when they're having troubles with the convertible top...

I know you read the article, but you apparently aren't able to tell the difference between a preproduction car and a production car.

There is nothing wrong with the G6. the car they are discussing in this article is not for sale, and it won't go on sale until it passes their (rigorous) QC process.

An article just like this came out about the Solstice a few months ago, and last year I remember something just like this on the Lexus RX400h. Do you also think something is "wrong" with those cars?

[SJ_GTI]

It's not unusual for a much-hyped car that was already unveiled in its production form to be cancelled? Pray, tell us of the other similar cases.

The G6 has been cancelled?!??!?!?

That would be news, but that's not what happened.

What is not unusual, however, is for cars with new technology to have engineering difficulties. Again, see my Solstice and RX400h examples.

[ifcar]

Actually I did read the article...and there is something wrong with it when they're having troubles with the convertible top...

I know you read the article, but you apparently aren't able to tell the difference between a preproduction car and a production car.

There is nothing wrong with the G6. the car they are discussing in this article is not for sale, and it won't go on sale until it passes their (rigorous) QC process.

An article just like this came out about the Solstice a few months ago, and last year I remember something just like this on the Lexus RX400h. Do you also think something is "wrong" with those cars?

So you consider serious defects coming up in QC checks of preproduction vehicles normal because it was reported twice in the last year? And neither of those products were at risk of being cancelled as a result of the problems.

[giant_mtb]

Actually I did read the article...and there is something wrong with it when they're having troubles with the convertible top...

I know you read the article, but you apparently aren't able to tell the difference between a preproduction car and a production car.

There is nothing wrong with the G6. the car they are discussing in this article is not for sale, and it won't go on sale until it passes their (rigorous) QC process.

An article just like this came out about the Solstice a few months ago, and last year I remember something just like this on the Lexus RX400h. Do you also think something is "wrong" with those cars?

I just thought it was odd that a month before it was supposed to go into production it coughs up some problems...

[ifcar]

It's not unusual for a much-hyped car that was already unveiled in its production form to be cancelled? Pray, tell us of the other similar cases.

The G6 has been cancelled?!??!?!?

That would be news, but that's not what happened.

What is not unusual, however, is for cars with new technology to have engineering difficulties. Again, see my Solstice and RX400h examples.

A rectractable hardtop is not "new technology". And the G6 has not been cancelled, but according to the article, the convertible version may very well be.  

[SJ_GTI]

Actually I did read the article...and there is something wrong with it when they're having troubles with the convertible top...

I know you read the article, but you apparently aren't able to tell the difference between a preproduction car and a production car.

There is nothing wrong with the G6. the car they are discussing in this article is not for sale, and it won't go on sale until it passes their (rigorous) QC process.

An article just like this came out about the Solstice a few months ago, and last year I remember something just like this on the Lexus RX400h. Do you also think something is "wrong" with those cars?

So you consider serious defects coming up in QC checks of preproduction vehicles normal because it was reported twice in the last year? And neither of those products were at risk of being cancelled as a result of the problems.

Ifcar you are arguing just for arguements sake.

Almost every new car has "issues" during preproduction. You are bright enough to know that. Its just so common that its usually not worth reporting on.

The only thing "special" about the G6 Convertible is that it will be the cheapest hardtop Vert in the US when it does go on sale.

This is similar to the Solstice as it was an entirely new product introducing hydroformed sheetmetal to the masses, and the RX400h which was (supposed to be) the first hybrid SUV (but when delayed the Ford Escape ended up being the first).

Do you seriously think the G6 vert is in danger of being cancelled? Or are you just taking that position just to argue with me?

[ifcar]

Actually I did read the article...and there is something wrong with it when they're having troubles with the convertible top...

I know you read the article, but you apparently aren't able to tell the difference between a preproduction car and a production car.

There is nothing wrong with the G6. the car they are discussing in this article is not for sale, and it won't go on sale until it passes their (rigorous) QC process.

An article just like this came out about the Solstice a few months ago, and last year I remember something just like this on the Lexus RX400h. Do you also think something is "wrong" with those cars?

So you consider serious defects coming up in QC checks of preproduction vehicles normal because it was reported twice in the last year? And neither of those products were at risk of being cancelled as a result of the problems.

Ifcar you are arguing just for arguements sake.

Almost every new car has "issues" during preproduction. You are bright enough to know that. Its just so common that its usually not worth reporting on.

The only thing "special" about the G6 Convertible is that it will be the cheapest hardtop Vert in the US when it does go on sale.

This is similar to the Solstice as it was an entirely new product introducing hydroformed sheetmetal to the masses, and the RX400h which was (supposed to be) the first hybrid SUV (but when delayed the Ford Escape ended up being the first).

Do you seriously think the G6 vert is in danger of being cancelled? Or are you just taking that position just to argue with me?

"A GM insider says the automaker needs to begin volume production by March. If that target cannot be met, he says, the program could be shelved because GM would not be able to amortize the vehicle's cost by the time the G6 is redesigned."

I'd say there's a definite chance that it could indeed be cancelled.  

[SJ_GTI]

I just thought it was odd that a month before it was supposed to go into production it coughs up some problems...

More misinformation.

The G6 Vert is scheduled to go on sale in January 2006, and has been scheduled at the date since earlier this year.

[ifcar]

I just thought it was odd that a month before it was supposed to go into production it coughs up some problems...

More misinformation.

The G6 Vert is scheduled to go on sale in January 2006, and has been scheduled at the date since earlier this year.

Misinformation? Misunderstanding. The article clearly says that the production date had already been pushed back in its second sentence.  

[SJ_GTI]

Okay, I give up. You are right, the G6 Vert is on the verge of cancellation. Poor Pontiac.  

PS. The G6 will be the first mainstream hardtop convertible in the US, and the largest. That is new technology.

[SJ_GTI]

I just thought it was odd that a month before it was supposed to go into production it coughs up some problems...

More misinformation.

The G6 Vert is scheduled to go on sale in January 2006, and has been scheduled at the date since earlier this year.

Misinformation? Misunderstanding. The article clearly says that the production date had already been pushed back in its second sentence.

Good Point. GM is in big trouble.

[ifcar]

Okay, I give up. You are right, the G6 Vert is on the verge of cancellation. Poor Pontiac.  

PS. The G6 will be the first mainstream hardtop convertible in the US, and the largest. That is new technology.

I did not say it was on the verge of cancellation. According to the article, there is a chance that it will be, while you have basically said that there is no chance that it will be.

And putting current technology into a cheaper car does not make it new technology.    

[SJ_GTI]

Okay, I give up. You are right, the G6 Vert is on the verge of cancellation. Poor Pontiac. 

PS. The G6 will be the first mainstream hardtop convertible in the US, and the largest. That is new technology.

I did not say it was on the verge of cancellation. According to the article, there is a chance that it will be, while you have basically said that there is no chance that it will be.

And putting current technology into a cheaper car does not make it new technology.  

Good point. There is obviously nothing new about the G6, GM's engineers are just stupid.

[giant_mtb]

I just thought it was odd that a month before it was supposed to go into production it coughs up some problems...

More misinformation.

The G6 Vert is scheduled to go on sale in January 2006, and has been scheduled at the date since earlier this year.

The article says it was supposed to come out next month, but because of the problems was pushed back to January 2006...  B)  

[ifcar]

What a way to try to prove a point: make pointless and stupid comments that can't be replied to. HINT: It doesn't work.  

[giant_mtb]

Don't be mean.

[ifcar]

I just thought it was odd that a month before it was supposed to go into production it coughs up some problems...

More misinformation.

The G6 Vert is scheduled to go on sale in January 2006, and has been scheduled at the date since earlier this year.

The article says it was supposed to come out next month, but because of the problems was pushed back to January 2006...  B)

It wasn't the next-month date that's being revised right now, it's the current January date that may be pushed further into 2005.