Only in a Redesign

[Raghavan]

Jeep better get working on a good electric motor too.

why?

[BMWDave]

Actually, Land Rover doesn't need to really keep it's heritage alive. They're all bought by uber rich snobs who don't take them off road. Jeep needs to keep their heritage and off road performance, as Liberty and Wrangler and other owners do off road quite a bit.

One of the stupidest statements I've heard in a long time.

[BMWDave]

Hardly. The platform itself is capable...give them some tires, and they are serious off road performers.

No they're not.

They are serious off roaders, and can traverse considerably rough terrain, but no, they arent the pumped up Wranglers that you see climbing 5 foot rocks in Baja

But my point is not to argue about how good Land Rovers are... the point is that they perform very well off road, and now, on road as well. And that has kept their heritage alive, while providing them with extra revenue.

I suppose they did keep their heritage alive: a heritage of duping rich people with too much money for their own good into believing they could go on safari.

An ignorant statement, one spoken with either jealousy, or some other bias.

Hardly. The platform itself is capable...give them some tires, and they are serious off road performers.

'Bout as serious as a Liberty or WK Grand Cherokee, which isn't very serious at all.

Serious enough...they can still off road, they just may not offroad to your standard of a pumped up Wrangler.  And a car based ute wont even come close to the current Jeep levels of off roadness.

[TBR]

Actually, Land Rover doesn't need to really keep it's heritage alive. They're all bought by uber rich snobs who don't take them off road. Jeep needs to keep their heritage and off road performance, as Liberty and Wrangler and other owners do off road quite a bit.

One of the stupidest statements I've heard in a long time.

Yet it is almost entirely accurate.

[ifcar]

What worries me now is the liklihood that the new car-based Jeeps will sell well. They'll have a Jeep look with car-comfort, which consumers probably wil respond to. The Patriot and Compass will probably be only the first of many sales-successful car-based Jeeps.

They definitely belong to Dodge and Chrysler.

They need to make money guys.  Why should it matter to Jeep what we think? You can't sell crude off-roaders just to appease a small portion of the market.

How many people go rock-climbing in a brand new Jeep anyway?! Just get an older Jeep for that. They're simpler, cheaper, and tougher.

Chrysler and Dodge can sell soft utes without alienating anybody, but Jeep can't.

Exactly.

The total purists may argue that the Liberty and Grand Cherokee aren't enough either, but they're better off-road than their competitors, which the car-based SUVs could never claim.  

[BMWDave]

Actually, Land Rover doesn't need to really keep it's heritage alive. They're all bought by uber rich snobs who don't take them off road. Jeep needs to keep their heritage and off road performance, as Liberty and Wrangler and other owners do off road quite a bit.

One of the stupidest statements I've heard in a long time.

Yet it is almost entirely accurate.

One who is a car savvy enthusiast doesnt generalize like that...

"Hey, everyone who buys an F-150 is some farm dwelling redneck"

[TBR]

Actually, Land Rover doesn't need to really keep it's heritage alive. They're all bought by uber rich snobs who don't take them off road. Jeep needs to keep their heritage and off road performance, as Liberty and Wrangler and other owners do off road quite a bit.

One of the stupidest statements I've heard in a long time.

Yet it is almost entirely accurate.

One who is a car savvy enthusiast doesnt generalize like that...

"Hey, everyone who buys an F-150 is some farm dwelling redneck"

You're quite clearly blindly biased when it comes to Land Rovers, people don't buy them to go offroad, they buy them to impress their friends.

[BMWDave]

Actually, Land Rover doesn't need to really keep it's heritage alive. They're all bought by uber rich snobs who don't take them off road. Jeep needs to keep their heritage and off road performance, as Liberty and Wrangler and other owners do off road quite a bit.

One of the stupidest statements I've heard in a long time.

Yet it is almost entirely accurate.

One who is a car savvy enthusiast doesnt generalize like that...

"Hey, everyone who buys an F-150 is some farm dwelling redneck"

You're quite clearly blindly biased when it comes to Land Rovers, people don't buy them to go offroad, they buy them to impress their friends.

I believe more Land Rover owners, percentage wise, take their cars off road than any other company.  So much for your blind generalizations.

[TBR]

I am sure many Land Rover owners take their vehicles offroad on the way to the ski lodge, but you are deceiving yourself if you think more Land Rovers do real offroading than Jeep or even Toyota owners (4runner/Land Cruiser/Tacoma) do.

[BMWDave]

I am sure many Land Rover owners take their vehicles offroad on the way to the ski lodge, but you are deceiving yourself if you think more Land Rovers do real offroading than Jeep or even Toyota owners (4runner/Land Cruiser/Tacoma) do.

Land Rovers are a lot more rare than Jeeps, so thats a insignifacnt statement, even if you could prove it was true.

[TBR]

I was refering to percentages. And throw in Pathfinder/Xterra owners in there too.  

[BMWDave]

I was refering to percentages. And throw in Pathfinder/Xterra owners in there too.

Well, you cant just make speculative statements like that.  Check out this statistic from the Auto Channel:

"Established in 1996, in Manchester, VT, in order to teach ordinary folks how to handle rough terrain, treacherous conditions and off-roading, it?s open virtually all-year and has had over 8,000 people through it?s doors. Interestingly, although only 14% of SUV users admit to taking their vehicles off the tarmac, around 40% of Land Rover owners take the road less traveled. (FYI, the schools are also open in other US locales, South Africa, the UK and are coming soon to Central and South America.)"

Link

[TBR]

Once again, what does "road less traveled" mean? And, the language there hardly indicates that a survey took place and offroad courses at dealers don't count either.

[TBR]

One more thing, the 14% number includes vehicles clearly not designed for offroad use and therefore isn't accurate.

[BMWDave]

And heres another statistic:

"Research indicates that over 38 percent of Land Rover owners use their vehicles off-road, far higher than the industry average. "

Link

[BMWDave]

All right, so find me a statistic that more Tacoma or Xterra owners take their vehicles off road than Land Rover owners.  

[TBR]

"Jeep says some 60 percent of owners of its World War II-style Wrangler account for most Jeep off-road use, but 45 percent of Jeep Liberty owners do the same thing. Almost 25 percent of Grand Cherokee owners go off road."
http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/jedlicka...rand%20Cherokee

And Jeep dealerships don't have offroad courses, so you know most of those people made a special effort to take their suvs offroad, something that likely isn't true of Land Rover owners.

[BMWDave]

"Jeep says some 60 percent of owners of its World War II-style Wrangler account for most Jeep off-road use, but 45 percent of Jeep Liberty owners do the same thing. Almost 25 percent of Grand Cherokee owners go off road."
http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/jedlicka...rand%20Cherokee

And Jeep dealerships don't have offroad courses, so you know most of those people made a special effort to take their suvs offroad, something that likely isn't true of Land Rover owners.

So instead of giving me the percentage of one model, give me the percentage of the whole brand.  I can assure you that Land Rover Defender owners also, in the majority, take their vehicles off road.

And as for your second argument...pure bullshit.  Land Rover making it easier to offroad just weakens your argument...it shows that its a more off road oriented brand, according to that logic.

And once again, find me a statistic to back up your statement that more Tacoma/Xterra owners take their cars off the road than land Rover owners.

[ifcar]

And heres another statistic:

"Research indicates that over 38 percent of Land Rover owners use their vehicles off-road, far higher than the industry average. "

Link

So they're above average? Almost half of their competitors are also above average. The other half are below average. That's how averages work.    

[BMWDave]

And heres another statistic:

"Research indicates that over 38 percent of Land Rover owners use their vehicles off-road, far higher than the industry average. "

Link

So they're above average? Almost half of their competitors are also above average. The other half are below average. That's how averages work.  

Check the other statistic.  I knew you would say something like that  

[280Z Turbo]

And heres another statistic:

"Research indicates that over 38 percent of Land Rover owners use their vehicles off-road, far higher than the industry average. "

Link

38 percent is still an F.  

[BMWDave]

And heres another statistic:

"Research indicates that over 38 percent of Land Rover owners use their vehicles off-road, far higher than the industry average. "

Link

38 percent is still an F.

:D  

[Yoshi]

And heres another statistic:

"Research indicates that over 38 percent of Land Rover owners use their vehicles off-road, far higher than the industry average. "

Link

Well, first of all, your statistics are all coming from Land Rover press releases, without any indication of what organization conducted the research. And what does "industry average" mean? There is no clue. It could be the whole industry, meaning car-owners as well. Maybe just SUV-owners, but would that include car-based SUVs? What qualifies as of-roading? Unpaved roads on the way to the stables?

No way to tell.

So the statistics are great press release padding, but objectively meaningless without context.

Though I would tend to agree with your assumption. I doubt many Defenders find themselves with road only duty, unlike many Wranglers I've known. I think the Range Rover and Discovery/LR3 are completely different matters.  

[ifcar]

And heres another statistic:

"Research indicates that over 38 percent of Land Rover owners use their vehicles off-road, far higher than the industry average. "

Link

So they're above average? Almost half of their competitors are also above average. The other half are below average. That's how averages work.  

Check the other statistic.  I knew you would say something like that

Which other statistic?

[BMWDave]

And heres another statistic:

"Research indicates that over 38 percent of Land Rover owners use their vehicles off-road, far higher than the industry average. "

Link

Well, first of all, your statistics are all coming from Land Rover press releases, without any indication of what organization conducted the research. And what does "industry average" mean? There is no clue. It could be the whole industry, meaning car-owners as well. Maybe just SUV-owners, but would that include car-based SUVs? What qualifies as of-roading? Unpaved roads on the way to the stables?

No way to tell.

So the statistics are great press release padding, but objectively meaningless without context.

Though I would tend to agree with your assumption. I doubt many Defenders find themselves with road only duty, unlike many Wranglers I've known. I think the Range Rover and Discovery/LR3 are completely different matters.

I agree, more Range Rover/LR3 owners will stay on road than off with their vehicles, but objectively speaking, Land Rover vehicles as a whole go off road more than other vehicles.

[BMWDave]

And heres another statistic:

"Research indicates that over 38 percent of Land Rover owners use their vehicles off-road, far higher than the industry average. "

Link

So they're above average? Almost half of their competitors are also above average. The other half are below average. That's how averages work.  

Check the other statistic.  I knew you would say something like that

Which other statistic?

It might be on page one :)  

[TBR]

"Jeep says some 60 percent of owners of its World War II-style Wrangler account for most Jeep off-road use, but 45 percent of Jeep Liberty owners do the same thing. Almost 25 percent of Grand Cherokee owners go off road."
http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/jedlicka...rand%20Cherokee

And Jeep dealerships don't have offroad courses, so you know most of those people made a special effort to take their suvs offroad, something that likely isn't true of Land Rover owners.

So instead of giving me the percentage of one model, give me the percentage of the whole brand.  I can assure you that Land Rover Defender owners also, in the majority, take their vehicles off road.

And as for your second argument...pure bullshit.  Land Rover making it easier to offroad just weakens your argument...it shows that its a more off road oriented brand, according to that logic.

And once again, find me a statistic to back up your statement that more Tacoma/Xterra owners take their cars off the road than land Rover owners.

You didn't give me a specific percentage of each model so why should I? Besides. I did give you the stats for each model anyway.  

Okay, the brand is more offroad oriented, but we aren't arguing about that, we're arguing about the owners.

Can't find stats on the Xterra or Tacoma, but I am 99.99% positive that more Xterra owners make a dedicated effort to go offroading than LR owners do and am about 75% sure that is the case with the Tacoma.

[ifcar]

And heres another statistic:

"Research indicates that over 38 percent of Land Rover owners use their vehicles off-road, far higher than the industry average. "

Link

So they're above average? Almost half of their competitors are also above average. The other half are below average. That's how averages work.  

Check the other statistic.  I knew you would say something like that

Which other statistic?

It might be on page one :)

The only statistic I found was that 40% of LR owners "take the road less travelled" compared to an average of 14% for all SUVs. All it says is that they are above average, not that they're the highest above average.  

[BMWDave]

"Jeep says some 60 percent of owners of its World War II-style Wrangler account for most Jeep off-road use, but 45 percent of Jeep Liberty owners do the same thing. Almost 25 percent of Grand Cherokee owners go off road."
http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/jedlicka...rand%20Cherokee

And Jeep dealerships don't have offroad courses, so you know most of those people made a special effort to take their suvs offroad, something that likely isn't true of Land Rover owners.

So instead of giving me the percentage of one model, give me the percentage of the whole brand.  I can assure you that Land Rover Defender owners also, in the majority, take their vehicles off road.

And as for your second argument...pure bullshit.  Land Rover making it easier to offroad just weakens your argument...it shows that its a more off road oriented brand, according to that logic.

And once again, find me a statistic to back up your statement that more Tacoma/Xterra owners take their cars off the road than land Rover owners.

You didn't give me a specific percentage of each model so why should I? Besides. I did give you the stats for each model anyway.  

Um, that was precisely my point.  I wanted statistics for the brand as a whole, not for individual models.

Okay, the brand is more offroad oriented, but we aren't arguing about that, we're arguing about the owners.

Its not up to you to decide Land Rover owners are lazy and only go offroad because they have courses...the fact is that more go offroad in LandRovers, so that should say something about the status of the owners as well.

Can't find stats on the Xterra or Tacoma, but I am 99.99% positive that more Xterra owners make a dedicated effort to go offroading than LR owners do and am about 75% sure that is the case with the Tacoma.

Youre being 99.9 or 75 percent sure does nothing for me, and its a made up fact until you can find proof of it.

[BMWDave]

And heres another statistic:

"Research indicates that over 38 percent of Land Rover owners use their vehicles off-road, far higher than the industry average. "

Link

So they're above average? Almost half of their competitors are also above average. The other half are below average. That's how averages work.  

Check the other statistic.  I knew you would say something like that

Which other statistic?

It might be on page one :)

The only statistic I found was that 40% of LR owners "take the road less travelled" compared to an average of 14% for all SUVs. All it says is that they are above average, not that they're the highest above average.

Here is another statistic:

"Fast forward some 50 years to a place where soccer moms and yuppies have vested the Land Rover brand with snobbery, and the cars evoke the urban jungle more than the outback. Although experts say Land Rover owners are statistically more likely to offroad, there is a perception that this brand?s pampered drivers would never willingly leave the pavement."

Link