Only in a Redesign

[TBR]

"Jeep says some 60 percent of owners of its World War II-style Wrangler account for most Jeep off-road use, but 45 percent of Jeep Liberty owners do the same thing. Almost 25 percent of Grand Cherokee owners go off road."
http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/jedlicka...rand%20Cherokee

And Jeep dealerships don't have offroad courses, so you know most of those people made a special effort to take their suvs offroad, something that likely isn't true of Land Rover owners.

So instead of giving me the percentage of one model, give me the percentage of the whole brand.  I can assure you that Land Rover Defender owners also, in the majority, take their vehicles off road.

And as for your second argument...pure bullshit.  Land Rover making it easier to offroad just weakens your argument...it shows that its a more off road oriented brand, according to that logic.

And once again, find me a statistic to back up your statement that more Tacoma/Xterra owners take their cars off the road than land Rover owners.

You didn't give me a specific percentage of each model so why should I? Besides. I did give you the stats for each model anyway.  

Um, that was precisely my point.  I wanted statistics for the brand as a whole, not for individual models.

Okay, the brand is more offroad oriented, but we aren't arguing about that, we're arguing about the owners.

Its not up to you to decide Land Rover owners are lazy and only go offroad because they have courses...the fact is that more go offroad in LandRovers, so that should say something about the status of the owners as well.

Can't find stats on the Xterra or Tacoma, but I am 99.99% positive that more Xterra owners make a dedicated effort to go offroading than LR owners do and am about 75% sure that is the case with the Tacoma.

Youre being 99.9 or 75 percent sure does nothing for me, and its a made up fact until you can find proof of it.

Oops, didn't read very carefully, however, it is pretty easy to concluded that if Jeep's best selling vehicles have percentages above that of LR than as a brand a higher percentage of the owners offroad.

If you really think that the people that go offroad on LR dealer courses would go offroad without them than you need a reality check. No serious offroader goes offroading in the middle of a city at a luxury car dealership.

I am looking.

[ifcar]

And heres another statistic:

"Research indicates that over 38 percent of Land Rover owners use their vehicles off-road, far higher than the industry average. "

Link

So they're above average? Almost half of their competitors are also above average. The other half are below average. That's how averages work.  

Check the other statistic.  I knew you would say something like that

Which other statistic?

It might be on page one :)

The only statistic I found was that 40% of LR owners "take the road less travelled" compared to an average of 14% for all SUVs. All it says is that they are above average, not that they're the highest above average.

Here is another statistic:

"Fast forward some 50 years to a place where soccer moms and yuppies have vested the Land Rover brand with snobbery, and the cars evoke the urban jungle more than the outback. Although experts say Land Rover owners are statistically more likely to offroad, there is a perception that this brand?s pampered drivers would never willingly leave the pavement."

Link

Another vague statement. More likely than WHAT to go off road? Than a Camry? Than a Highlander? Than the average vehicle? Than the average SUV? Any other vehicle? Any other brand? The average brand? Need I go on?

[BMWDave]

Oops, didn't read very carefully, however, it is pretty easy to concluded that if Jeep's best selling vehicles have percentages above that of LR than as a brand a higher percentage of the owners offroad.

There is no way to determine that, and you must provide statistics.  And one vehicle that has a high percentage of being taken off road is dragged down by two other family vehicles that are taken off road far less often.

If you really think that the people that go offroad on LR dealer courses would go offroad without them than you need a reality check. No serious offroader goes offroading in the middle of a city at a luxury car dealership.

I have no idea if Land Rover owners would offroad without the courses...but saying that Jeep is more off road oriented because they dont have dealer courses is hogwash.

I am looking.

All right :)

[TBR]

"There is no way to determine that, and you must provide statistics. And one vehicle that has a high percentage of being taken off road is dragged down by two other family vehicles that are taken off road far less often."

I really thought you were smarter than this. Yes, the GC's number is a little low but the Liberty's number is still higher than that of all LRs and the Cherokee's was probably even higher!

"I have no idea if Land Rover owners would offroad without the courses...but saying that Jeep is more off road oriented because they dont have dealer courses is hogwash."

Now when did I say that? I simply said that Land Rover owners aren't very offroad oriented, not that the brand itself isn't. And, the 38% number includes all Land Rovers, not just the ones made in the past few years which are much, much less likely to be taken offroad. If you can find me a new Range Rover owner who regularly takes his/her vehicle offroad at somewhere other than the dealership and I will be impressed.

[BMWDave]

"There is no way to determine that, and you must provide statistics. And one vehicle that has a high percentage of being taken off road is dragged down by two other family vehicles that are taken off road far less often."

I really thought you were smarter than this. Yes, the GC's number is a little low but the Liberty's number is still higher than that of all LRs and the Cherokee's was probably even higher!

"I have no idea if Land Rover owners would offroad without the courses...but saying that Jeep is more off road oriented because they dont have dealer courses is hogwash."

Now when did I say that? I simply said that Land Rover owners aren't very offroad oriented, not that the brand itself isn't. And, the 38% number includes all Land Rovers, not just the ones made in the past few years which are much, much less likely to be taken offroad. If you can find me a new Range Rover owner who regularly takes his/her vehicle offroad at somewhere other than the dealership and I will be impressed.

I dont understand what you have against a owner taking their car off road at a dealership.  I hope you realize that the dealer sponsors events, where you go to Virginia, or Vermont...its not like they take you through a bathtub in the backyard of the dealer :D  

[TBR]

"I dont understand what you have against a owner taking their car off road at a dealership. I hope you realize that the dealer sponsors events, where you go to Virginia, or Vermont...its not like they take you through a bathtub in the backyard of the dealer"

I don't have anything against it, but you can't compare offroading at a LR dealership to taking your Jeep on a dedicated offroad journey.

[BMWDave]

"I dont understand what you have against a owner taking their car off road at a dealership. I hope you realize that the dealer sponsors events, where you go to Virginia, or Vermont...its not like they take you through a bathtub in the backyard of the dealer"

I don't have anything against it, but you can't compare offroading at a LR dealership to taking your Jeep on a dedicated offroad journey.

Oh my god...need I repeat myself...they dont go offroading at the dealership...they go through some pretty rough terrain at off road trails such as one in Vermont, Virginia, at the Equinox, and through Baja.

[TBR]

yes, I saw that. But the dealerships do have offroad courses, and that is likely the onle place where most owners of newer LRs take their vehicles offroad.

[93JC]

Hardly. The platform itself is capable...give them some tires, and they are serious off road performers.

No they're not.

They are serious off roaders, and can traverse considerably rough terrain, but no, they arent the pumped up Wranglers that you see climbing 5 foot rocks in Baja

They aren't serious offroaders.

But my point is not to argue about how good Land Rovers are... the point is that they perform very well off road, and now, on road as well. And that has kept their heritage alive, while providing them with extra revenue.

I suppose they did keep their heritage alive: a heritage of duping rich people with too much money for their own good into believing they could go on safari.

An ignorant statement, one spoken with either jealousy, or some other bias.

It's not my fault it's true.

Hardly. The platform itself is capable...give them some tires, and they are serious off road performers.

'Bout as serious as a Liberty or WK Grand Cherokee, which isn't very serious at all.

Serious enough...they can still off road, they just may not offroad to your standard of a pumped up Wrangler.  And a car based ute wont even come close to the current Jeep levels of off roadness.

No, they can't. I guess I'm going to have to repeat myself until I get it through to you: Land Rovers (Range Rover, Discovery/LR3 and Freelander) are useless in any situation more taxing than a dirt road. Liberties and Grand Cherokees are too. I'm sorry if this happens to shatter your fanboyish precepts, but it's true. So is the fact that Land Rover caters to the rich. So is the fact that Land Rover's offroading statistics are egregiously overinflated by the dealer-sponsored offroad schools, designed around the various retreats and country clubs they're hosted at rather than the offroading of the vehicles themselves.

Like I said, Land Rover have a history of duping the rich into believing they could go on safari in a Land Rover.

Dave, you have been duped.

[BMWDave]

yes, I saw that. But the dealerships do have offroad courses, and that is likely the onle place where most owners of newer LRs take their vehicles offroad.

Once again, you can not back up that statement, and the simpe fact that a lot of dealerships dont have any sembelance of a course.  Almost every single one I've checked online organizes trips to off road courses, and the three that I have experience with dont have any off road course.  

[BMWDave]

What can I say, 93JC...to say that Land Rovers are good for nothing more than a dirt road is foolish...



thats a very nice dirt road    

[Raghavan]

Actually, Land Rover doesn't need to really keep it's heritage alive. They're all bought by uber rich snobs who don't take them off road. Jeep needs to keep their heritage and off road performance, as Liberty and Wrangler and other owners do off road quite a bit.

One of the stupidest statements I've heard in a long time.

Seems like some others agree with me...

[93JC]

'Kay now I'm confused...

Are you being serious, or are you using the chopped photo as a joke?

[Raghavan]

Dave, you have been duped.

   

[ifcar]

What can I say, 93JC...to say that Land Rovers are good for nothing more than a dirt road is foolish...



thats a very nice dirt road  

That just proves that LR has a poor navigation system.  :P  

[Raghavan]

What can I say, 93JC...to say that Land Rovers are good for nothing more than a dirt road is foolish...



thats a very nice dirt road  

That just proves that LR has a poor navigation system.  :P

:D  

[BMWDave]

I can find lots of Land Rover Pictures off road:

[BMWDave]

Land Rovers are only made for smooth dirt roads....  

[93JC]

The only Disco that looks like it's doing well.

[BMWDave]

The only Disco that looks like it's doing well.

Whatever you say...

[Tom]

Though LR is more of a status symbol here in the good old US, I would believe many people in other countries who live in an area where offroad travel is necessary use Land Rovers, though more in standard or work package form.  

[BMWDave]

Though LR is more of a status symbol here in the good old US, I would believe many people in other countries who live in an area where offroad travel is necessary use Land Rovers, though more in standard or work package form.

Correct...they are used a lot more..I've been abroad, and they do take then for "light off roading" almost everyday.

[93JC]

The only Disco that looks like it's doing well.

Whatever you say...

[BMWDave]

These pictures are taken at random times...I could bring you tons of pictures of Jeeps that "arent doing well".

But your original statement was the Land Rovers can only go on smooth dirt roads...

[93JC]

I have no doubt you could find a picture of a Jeep doing very poorly offroad. Doesn't change the fact that Land Rovers (new ones in particular) are awful in any offroad situation more taxing than a dirt road.

(and I don't know where you got "smooth" dirt road from)

[BMWDave]

I have no doubt you could find a picture of a Jeep doing very poorly offroad. Doesn't change the fact that Land Rovers (new ones in particular) are awful in any offroad situation more taxing than a dirt road.

(and I don't know where you got "smooth" dirt road from)

Whatever...this thread was about Jeep's new direction, not how good or badly Land Rovers can offroad...so lets just have out respective opinions, and thats that :)

[93JC]

Whatever...this thread was about Jeep's new direction, not how good or badly Land Rovers can offroad...so lets just have out respective opinions, and thats that :)

You sure this thread is about Jeep's "new direction"? After all, you are the one who wrote the article, in which you stated Jeep should be more like Land Rover. You yanked Land Rover into it, not me. I just called you on the bullshit.

Two last questions: what makes you think the Range Rover/LR3 platform should be emulated by Jeep, and what makes you think the Range Rover/LR3 platform isn't a blatant copy of UniFrame in the first place?

[TBR]

The only Disco that looks like it's doing well.

It is also the only disco that is less than 3 years old.

[BMWDave]

Whatever...this thread was about Jeep's new direction, not how good or badly Land Rovers can offroad...so lets just have out respective opinions, and thats that :)

You sure this thread is about Jeep's "new direction"? After all, you are the one who wrote the article, in which you stated Jeep should be more like Land Rover. You yanked Land Rover into it, not me. I just called you on the bullshit.

Two last questions: what makes you think the Range Rover/LR3 platform should be emulated by Jeep, and what makes you think the Range Rover/LR3 platform isn't a blatant copy of UniFrame in the first place?

I merely brought LR in as an example, and you turned it into a whole thread about how Land Rovers suck ass off road, etc. etc.

I said the overall idea of the platform should be used, meaning that Jeep should produce vehicles that are on road oriented, but that can still offroad.

And here you go bringing in an entirely different topic..I never said anything about about Uniframe or Land Rover copying it...all I said was that Jeep should build vehicles on a similar platform to Land Rovers, thus allowing them to function both on and off road, instead of producing car based utes.

[TBR]

"And here you go bringing in an entirely different topic..I never said anything about about Uniframe or Land Rover copying it...all I said was that Jeep should build vehicles on a similar platform to Land Rovers, thus allowing them to function both on and off road, instead of producing car based utes."

They already do, it is called the Grand Cherokee.