Infiniti M!

[Raza]

Huh? It replaces the current M.


This car competes more with the 5-series, GS and E-class crowd.

I meant the looks.

[sportyaccordy]

I meant the looks.

It's pretty similar, but still good looking. I am hoping the G gets a little smaller next go round.

[omicron]

Carlos Ghosn, if anything, created a cost consolidation method within Renault/Nissan that has just recently become a model for a profitable, competitive car company.  I know that sounds like an excuse to allow GM to perform poorly, but it's really not.  Ford wouldn't be coming back if it weren't for the Way Forward and One Ford plans that are somewhat modeled on what Ghosn did.

I think GM is inherently flawed, but I can't see them not working on some of their problems.  And yeah, I think everything they have should be a Zeta, Sigma, or Kappa, but that's for them to figure out now.  That's not really our problem.

I should hope Ford's efforts are better than those of Le Cost Killer. Mainstream Nissans and Renaults are impossibly underwhelming - the Laguna isn't competitive at all, the Teana/Maxima only sells because of its equipment levels for the price, the mum-and-dad Meganes are nothing special, the Versa/Tiida is a fabulously cynical car, the Koleos is underdeveloped, the Dualis/Qashqai doesn't do anything better than a cheaper 3, Focus or Golf, the X-Trail is an uglier, pricier old model, and so on.

[565]

Anyone watch the virtual unveiling?

I thought it was just going to be showing some CGI movies on a big screen, but what Infiniti did was something new and interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2rp8RnVi3k

Sadly the video isn't of great quality.

Apparently they had a foam white model of the new M there and used special projectors to give it color and detail and they could make it look as if it was in motion on the road.

It looks like the technology is still a bit new right now, but given some time this could change how cars are revealed at car shows and such.  You could show the car in every color, different lighting conditions, you could put it anywhere you wanted, in the middle of NYC with the skyscrapers reflected in the sunroof, or on the Nurburgring with the trees flashing by the windows.

[ifcar]

Anyone watch the virtual unveiling?

I thought it was just going to be showing some CGI movies on a big screen, but what Infiniti did was something new and interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2rp8RnVi3k

Sadly the video isn't of great quality.

Apparently they had a foam white model of the new M there and used special projectors to give it color and detail and they could make it look as if it was in motion on the road.

It looks like the technology is still a bit new right now, but given some time this could change how cars are revealed at car shows and such.  You could show the car in every color, different lighting conditions, you could put it anywhere you wanted, in the middle of NYC with the skyscrapers reflected in the sunroof, or on the Nurburgring with the trees flashing by the windows.

Yeah, but you don't get to go inside the car.

[565]

Yeah, but you don't get to go inside the car.

That's true with some concepts cars as well.  Clearly an actual car in the flesh is best, but if you don't have that ready yet, this will certainly dazzle the masses.

[ifcar]

That's true with some concepts cars as well.  Clearly an actual car in the flesh is best, but if you don't have that ready yet, this will certainly dazzle the masses.

It certainly would make the first-stage concept car lower-investment. But I can't see it catching on for more finished products like the M.

[nickdrinkwater]

That's pretty cool technology.

[Raza]

It's pretty similar, but still good looking. I am hoping the G gets a little smaller next go round.

They're all pretty ugly.  The G coupe is the least ugly, but the new design language just doesn't feel cohesive to me.

[Atomic]

i love every aspect of it!

[cawimmer430]

According to Autobild there will be a V6 diesel for the European market. Has this been confirmed yet? 

I've not even seen an Infiniti on the road here yet except a few imported FX's.

[sportyaccordy]

According to Autobild there will be a V6 diesel for the European market. Has this been confirmed yet? 

I've not even seen an Infiniti on the road here yet except a few imported FX's.

I don't think Infiniti is prepared to make a 4 cylinder diesel M

[Vinsanity]

From what I gather, the Nissan Fuga (Infiniti M) is pretty ubiquitous in Japan, so I'd think that whatever economical engine options they have there would be sufficient for Europe.

[cawimmer430]

I don't think Infiniti is prepared to make a 4 cylinder diesel M

It wouldn't hurt them at all. They have no image to cultivate in Europe in the first place, like Lexus. This mentality of "6-cylinder only because of image reasons" doesn't really work with the new Japanese luxury brands in Europe. They have no image in the sense of their European rivals.

They should just go ahead and offer an efficient and refined 4-cylinder diesel. Nissan can source these from Renault. Renault has some excellent diesels in Europe.

[CaMIRO]

Again, it's not that it's bad on its own. It's that Acura upstaged it with the TL.

The RL is an expedient attempt to avoid going rear-wheel drive (or balanced chassis w/ AWD) - which is what a car of that size and weight needs to be in order to compete. Barring a few exceptions (Audi comes to mind), it's that simple. In engineering terms, the RL fails basic logic.

That's a major handicap; but logic isn't the overarching factor in this price range. An inherently handicapped car is wearing a badge that is hardly tested at the $50,000 level. So it fails in that regard, too.

The problem is not the TL; the problem is the RL's competition. There's no reason to buy an RL, but plenty of reasons not to buy one; and none of them need have anything to do with the TL.

[ifcar]

The RL is an expedient attempt to avoid going rear-wheel drive (or balanced chassis w/ AWD) - which is what a car of that size and weight needs to be in order to compete. Barring a few exceptions (Audi comes to mind), it's that simple. In engineering terms, the RL fails basic logic.

That's a major handicap; but logic isn't the overarching factor in this price range. An inherently handicapped car is wearing a badge that is hardly tested at the $50,000 level. So it fails in that regard, too.

The problem is not the TL; the problem is the RL's competition. There's no reason to buy an RL, but plenty of reasons not to buy one; and none of them need have anything to do with the TL.

The RL as it is is fine for the buyer who is just looking for the badge but with more space than an entry-level premium car, who I suspect makes up a larger portion of sales than you probably think. And those buyers have little reason to buy an RL because of the TL.

You don't need to have the best-engineered car to have a successful car. It's Acura's market positioning, not its lack of rear-wheel-drive, that's messed up the RL.

[CaMIRO]

The RL as it is is fine for the buyer who is just looking for the badge but with more space than an entry-level premium car, who I suspect makes up a larger portion of sales than you probably think.

For $50,000? That's all they want? A badge and more space?

"Just fine" doesn't cut it for $50,000; not when there are much more compelling choices out there.

And those buyers have little reason to buy an RL because of the TL.

Remove the TL from Acura's range.
Take it out. Completely.
You really think that RL sales would climb significantly?

You don't need to have the best-engineered car to have a successful car.

You need a well-engineered car.
And, in this class, some cachet.

The RL's engineers were given a massive handicap. They fought (probably, valiantly) the inherent problems in ride and handling. Their SH-AWD system is actually technologically intriguing - but it has more than met its match in trying to get an overweight, ill-balanced vehicle to dance. In this car, it's no more than a band aid, and it can't fix the issue.

And there's certainly no cachet to a car that cannot dynamically match its competitors, wears an Acura badge, costs $50,000, and looks like an overgrown Honda Accord.

Notice that I haven't mentioned the TL once.

It's Acura's market positioning, not its lack of rear-wheel-drive, that's messed up the RL.

The "market positioning" you're talking about - as I understand it, the existence of the new TL - was not present when the RL launched. Yet the car was a slow seller from the outset.

Acura wanted to move 20,000 per year, as I recall... couldn't see it happening then, and I'm not surprised now.
This was a marginal car.
With or without the new TL.

[nickdrinkwater]

According to Autobild there will be a V6 diesel for the European market. Has this been confirmed yet? 

Yup, confirmed.  Same engine used in the Laguna Coupe.

[ifcar]

For $50,000? That's all they want? A badge and more space?

More people than you seem to think, yes. What do you think the average consumer is looking for, weight distribution?

"Just fine" doesn't cut it for $50,000; not when there are much more compelling choices out there.

You'd be surprised. When the standard is so high, anything that even approaches it is still a pretty nice automobile.

Remove the TL from Acura's range.
Take it out. Completely.
You really think that RL sales would climb significantly?

Yes.

You need a well-engineered car.
And, in this class, some cachet.

The cachet probably hurts more than the engineering. Yet Lincoln is able to sell the MKS in this price range with no more cachet and even less engineering. Space and a badge.

The RL's engineers were given a massive handicap. They fought (probably, valiantly) the inherent problems in ride and handling. Their SH-AWD system is actually technologically intriguing - but it has more than met its match in trying to get an overweight, ill-balanced vehicle to dance. In this car, it's no more than a band aid, and it can't fix the issue.

And there's certainly no cachet to a car that cannot dynamically match its competitors, wears an Acura badge, costs $50,000, and looks like an overgrown Honda Accord.

I've seen many reviews praising the RL's driving dynamics and criticizing those of some of its rear-drive competitors. Does the RL really fail to match a Lexus GS or Cadillac STS, cars I frequently see sharply criticized?

The styling hurts, badly. No doubt about that. Acura once had a great-looking flagship, and it was very popular. And everyone can notice styling.

Notice that I haven't mentioned the TL once.

The "market positioning" you're talking about - as I understand it, the existence of the new TL - was not present when the RL launched. Yet the car was a slow seller from the outset.

Acura wanted to move 20,000 per year, as I recall... couldn't see it happening then, and I'm not surprised now.
This was a marginal car.
With or without the new TL.

The 2004 TL had just come out, and it too had lots of power and similar interior space compared to the 2005 RL. But now for 2009, they went and stripped the RL of the one thing it had left that was unique: the all-wheel-drive.

This was indeed a marginal car with or without the TL. But even with snoozer styling, it would have undeniably sold better had it not faced the internal competition of the TL. Would it have met sales projections? Perhaps. 20k/year isn't a huge volume, and the RL was always priced pretty well relative to the competition. If the TSX were Acura's only entry-level car, it might very well have pulled that off despite its handicaps.

[sportyaccordy]

M35x: $47K
RL: $47K

M has more room, smaller footprint, arguably better dynamics

[ifcar]

M35x: $47K
RL: $47K

M has more room, smaller footprint, arguably better dynamics

It would be my choice as well, sure. But the difference between the two is not so vast that it would be inconceivable for someone to pick the RL. Also, last I checked, the M doesn't sell so well either.

[CaMIRO]

More people than you seem to think, yes. What do you think the average consumer is looking for, weight distribution?

Leaving aside that the "average consumer" isn't shopping in the $50k class...

The sizzle, ifcar.
Not the steak.

They want the characteristics that a well-engineered automobile offers.
And they want it to feel $50k worth of special.
And if they can't figure it out for themselves, plenty of tests and local anoraks will confirm that the RL ain't up to par.

Again - this is the $50k class. You're not trying to sell someone on the merits of a Kia Rondo (more space, reliable, etc.)

If you honestly believe that, minus the TL, the RL would sell significantly better, then explain how it is that the RL has never sold well, with or without the current generation of TL in showrooms.

You appear to believe that buyers are waiting, baited breath, for an Acura with space; as though someone walks into an Acura showroom with the desire for x cargo capacity with room for y passengers. At $50k, the market simply does not work that way.

This car is at a serious deficit vis a vis its (very) established competition - and yet you're worried about sibling rivalry.

Lincoln is able to sell the MKS in this price range...

Go back and check the MKS' base price. And I wouldn't agree that it has significantly less cachet than an Acura, or significantly "less engineering." It does look considerably more special, though.

I've seen many reviews praising the RL's driving dynamics and criticizing those of some of its rear-drive competitors. Does the RL really fail to match a Lexus GS or Cadillac STS, cars I frequently see sharply criticized?

Those cars get the basic plot right, sure, but they need work in other areas. At $50k, you want the complete package. The difference is that Honda got this one wrong from square 1.

The styling hurts, badly. No doubt about that. Acura once had a great-looking flagship, and it was very popular. And everyone can notice styling.

Yes. Overgrown Accord.

But about this "everyone can notice" business - I'll tell you, from first hand experience, that you underestimate the number of BMW drivers who come back because they like the "feel" of their cars. They may not all understand weight distribution, but your "average consumer" is hardly as plebian as you make him out to be.

But now for 2009, they went and stripped the RL of the one thing it had left that was unique: the all-wheel-drive.

... and sales were poor, before and after the event you're trying to present as a turning point.

BTW, they didn't "strip" the RL of anything; it's still the same, marginal product it was.

20k/year isn't a huge volume, and the RL was always priced pretty well relative to the competition.

A half-hearted, expedient effort, in this class, with this sort of competition, wearing a badge whose ability to hit $50k remains untested, doesn't need the TL to flunk its sales targets.

I agree that the platform is not the only thing holding this car back;
but the TL is no more than the icing on the cake - the last explanation I'd use - amid the RL's many deficiencies.

[CaMIRO]

By the way - there's no TL in Europe, and yet Honda couldn't give the Legend away. I think they've actually stopped selling it in the U.K., with more market withdrawals possibly to follow.

[ifcar]

But many people buy cars with deficiencies, even luxury cars. The Lexus GS is a giant walking deficiency -- deficient ride, deficient handling, deficient space. It's not top seller, no, but it sells, and at a higher rate than the almost inarguably superior Audi A6.

The real question isn't whether the RL feels like you think a $50,000 car should. It's what makes people care in this case. And I seriously doubt it's the front-drive based underpinnings, which don't necessarily betray any shortcomings when a car is driven like a luxury car rather than a sports sedan. I also doubt it was the reviews of the car that kept people away -- many were very positive despite the lack of RWD.

Styling was the biggest problem. Had this car looked the part of a $50,000 car, it would have done pretty well. Did a lack of rear-wheel-drive ever kill the Legend, back in the days of the 2.5-liter 170-horsepower TL?

Cannibalism from the TL is certainly up there too, from the 2005 RL's first day on the market and increasing with the TL's 2009 redesign. Why would someone go into the Acura dealer and not be encouraged to buy a $35k TL and get virtually the same experience as in a $50k RL?

No TL, and Acura can upsell TSX buyers looking for more power and luxury. (At least before the 2010 TSX.) Can't do that with the TL sharing showroom space.

[ifcar]

By the way - there's no TL in Europe, and yet Honda couldn't give the Legend away. I think they've actually stopped selling it in the U.K., with more market withdrawals possibly to follow.

The European market is an entirely different animal. I don't know how the Legend is priced there and what it's supposed to be competing with, but I doubt it's relevant to the US.

[MX793]

It would be my choice as well, sure. But the difference between the two is not so vast that it would be inconceivable for someone to pick the RL. Also, last I checked, the M doesn't sell so well either.

I see a heck of a lot more Infiniti Ms than I do RLs.

[ifcar]

I see a heck of a lot more Infiniti Ms than I do RLs.

Yes, but not a huge number of either.

[565]

It would be my choice as well, sure. But the difference between the two is not so vast that it would be inconceivable for someone to pick the RL. Also, last I checked, the M doesn't sell so well either.

The M sells worlds better than the RL.  If you consider the M as not selling well, then only two cars in the class could be considered to sell well, as the Infiniti M holds about 3rd place in the market.  The M is a sales miracle considering the old M45 sucked, and Infiniti had almost no presence in this market before.

It usually holds about 3rd place, despite being rather long in the tooth by 2008/2009 (the 2008 update was very minor), and being more limited in choices (fewer engine choices than BMW, Merc, no wagon).

http://www.autospies.com/news/January-2009-Luxury-Car-Sales-40605/

http://www.autospies.com/news/March-2008-Luxury-Car-Sales-Winners-Losers-28250/


2008 March

MID-LEVEL
1. BMW 5-Series - 3,667
2. Mercedez-Benz E-Class - 3,039
3. Infiniti M - 1,753
4. Lexus GS - 1,668
5. Volvo S80 - 1,629
6. Cadillac STS - 1,486
7. Jaguar XF - 1,161
8. Audi A6 - 898
9. Acura RL - 548
10. Saab 9-5 - 316
11. Jaguar S-Type - 80

2009 Jan

Mid-Level
1. 5 - 2,596
2. E - 1,768
3. M - 1,176
4. GS - 898
5. A6/S6 - 776
6. S80 - 473
7. STS - 413
8. RL - 208
9. 9-5 - 101

Despite coming from no where, the Infiniti M manages to beat out established cars like the GS and A6. 

[ifcar]

M sales have fallen sharply. It was just around 600 units last month.

[MX793]

M sales have fallen sharply. It was just around 600 units last month.

A lot of models have seen sales plummet recently.  But overall, the M has sold pretty well.  And maybe it's a regional thing, but it seems to me that I almost see as many Ms as I do G35/G37s.