12 cylinders on a reasonable budget

[Tave]

At least two of those cars are going to list really high.

[the Teuton]

I'll take the Silver Seraph, thanks.  Or an Arnage.

[CaMIRO]

Jag wins.

I agree... but I've long harbored a fascination with this particular beast -



To paraphrase David E. Davis - Damn the Datsuns Camcords, full speed ahead!


The Camcord is, as it ever was, intelligently pared down to a price for the Wal-Mart shopper.

In ten years, driving that same Camcord won't be quite so intelligent.
The Camcord becomes obsolete.
The respect it inspires is based chiefly on how efficiently it can move you from point to point.

Several of the cars in this thread were once dubbed "best in the world."
Take the Bugatti Royale, for instance.
Built to be no less than the best.
The motivations of its creator remain relevant today.
And its impact is eternal.

No matter how much better a Camcord is to drive, it'll be crushed in the next Cars for Clunkers program.
As the Royale lives on to inspire the next generation.

[Raza]

Ha, Raza ran.

I thought my use of "fuckface" was too strong, then when I went to edit, I decided I didn't care enough, so I deleted it.   

[GoCougs]

There are actually quite a few options


W220 S600!

SL600 with the 390HP motor

850Ci.

88 XJS, 33K miles. Prob barely runs

Would u take the risk??? 1 tune up would prob cost a quarter of the car's value

So, sporty, since you asked, I'll answer. And I'm glad you did, because I've been thinking about this a bit plus such a topic is bound to spearhead vigorous yet level-headed, polite, non-diversionary debate. But no, sporty, I wouldn't take the chance. Why, you ask?

The average V6 CamCord of today is more often than not the better all around performer WRT such cars and others of similar ilk (i.e., has-been luxo barges) plus in addition the V6 CamCord will be FAR more reliable, FAR cheaper to maintain and repair, FAR better in MPG, and probably safer and even cheaper to insure.

As an active single who uses a car for hiking, skiing, camping, in addition to working 10 hours a day and doing my best to tomcat about, I simply do not have the inclination to suffer such vehicles as you have listed; in other words I would not trade the aforementioned OBJECTIVE advantages of a V6 CamCord for the SUBJECTIVE advantages others are likely to mention (badge snobbery/legacy obsession, steering feel, V8 or V12 sound, "confidence," etc.).

What you say? Where's your automotive enthusiasm? I rest my enthusiasm primarily on the fact that I keep up on how cars work, and the employment of new and upcoming technologies. Further, having in past lives worked a fair amount on a multitude of vehicles, I now assuage my penchant for techie/hands-on stuff via my career. I thus get enough of an enthusiast's kick from a car that runs high 14s in the 1/4 mile, has decent brakes and handling, and otherwise can be driven 100,000+ miles without any headaches.

[/thread]

[sportyaccordy]

So, sporty, since you asked, I'll answer. And I'm glad you did, because I've been thinking about this a bit plus such a topic is bound to spearhead vigorous yet level-headed, polite, non-diversionary debate. But no, sporty, I wouldn't take the chance. Why, you ask?

The average V6 CamCord of today is more often than not the better all around performer WRT such cars and others of similar ilk (i.e., has-been luxo barges) plus in addition the V6 CamCord will be FAR more reliable, FAR cheaper to maintain and repair, FAR better in MPG, and probably safer and even cheaper to insure.

As an active single who uses a car for hiking, skiing, camping, in addition to working 10 hours a day and doing my best to tomcat about, I simply do not have the inclination to suffer such vehicles as you have listed; in other words I would not trade the aforementioned OBJECTIVE advantages of a V6 CamCord for the SUBJECTIVE advantages others are likely to mention (badge snobbery/legacy obsession, steering feel, V8 or V12 sound, "confidence," etc.).

What you say? Where's your automotive enthusiasm? I rest my enthusiasm primarily on the fact that I keep up on how cars work, and the employment of new and upcoming technologies. Further, having in past lives worked a fair amount on a multitude of vehicles, I now assuage my penchant for techie/hands-on stuff via my career. I thus get enough of an enthusiast's kick from a car that runs high 14s in the 1/4 mile, has decent brakes and handling, and otherwise can be driven 100,000+ miles without any headaches.

[/thread]

Some ppl have more than 1 car

Tave is right, this is corny, thx for playing.

[Rupert]

So, sporty, since you asked, I'll answer. And I'm glad you did, because I've been thinking about this a bit plus such a topic is bound to spearhead vigorous yet level-headed, polite, non-diversionary debate. But no, sporty, I wouldn't take the chance. Why, you ask?

The average V6 CamCord of today is more often than not the better all around performer WRT such cars and others of similar ilk (i.e., has-been luxo barges) plus in addition the V6 CamCord will be FAR more reliable, FAR cheaper to maintain and repair, FAR better in MPG, and probably safer and even cheaper to insure.

As an active single who uses a car for hiking, skiing, camping, in addition to working 10 hours a day and doing my best to tomcat about, I simply do not have the inclination to suffer such vehicles as you have listed; in other words I would not trade the aforementioned OBJECTIVE advantages of a V6 CamCord for the SUBJECTIVE advantages others are likely to mention (badge snobbery/legacy obsession, steering feel, V8 or V12 sound, "confidence," etc.).

What you say? Where's your automotive enthusiasm? I rest my enthusiasm primarily on the fact that I keep up on how cars work, and the employment of new and upcoming technologies. Further, having in past lives worked a fair amount on a multitude of vehicles, I now assuage my penchant for techie/hands-on stuff via my career. I thus get enough of an enthusiast's kick from a car that runs high 14s in the 1/4 mile, has decent brakes and handling, and otherwise can be driven 100,000+ miles without any headaches.

[/thread]

That is the post you should have made first. We might disagree, but now it's phrased so that it applies to you, and so that it's clear you are communicating what you know is your opinion.

[Rupert]

Some ppl have more than 1 car

Tave is right, this is corny, thx for playing.

Honestly, I don't think I'd want one of these as a second car. I would have to DD the big 12 and have a fun car as the second car.

[GoCougs]

That is the post you should have made first. We might disagree, but now it's phrased so that it applies to you, and so that it's clear you are communicating what you know is your opinion.

Nope.

Both the warrant and sanction of my POV is 100% encapsulated in the second paragraph - LOL - remember, sporty asked the question; it's just that you guys spent more than five humorous pages ignoring it.

Either way, having all the rest of it consolidated should ratchet down the diversion, the ad hominem, and the general malaise of Internetry mob attack mentality.

But we shall see.

[CaMIRO]

Honestly, I don't think I'd want one of these as a second car. I would have to DD the big 12 and have a fun car as the second car.

[Rupert]

Nope.

Both the warrant and sanction of my POV is 100% encapsulated in the second paragraph - LOL - remember, sporty asked the question; it's just that you guys spent more than five humorous pages ignoring it.

Either way, having all the rest of it consolidated should ratchet down the diversion, the ad hominem, and the general malaise of Internetry mob attack mentality.

But we shall see.

We didn't ign....


Oh, fuck it.

[sportyaccordy]

Honestly, I don't think I'd want one of these as a second car. I would have to DD the big 12 and have a fun car as the second car.

No way

You would cut down on maintenance & gas mileage significantly by making these night/weekend cars. If I were to have one of these as a DD I'd have to spend the $$$ on a pristine one.

[Raza]

Honestly, I don't think I'd want one of these as a second car. I would have to DD the big 12 and have a fun car as the second car.

Yeah, they're too much of a big pudding to be a weekend car.  A weekend car should have three pedals and no roof. 

[Eye of the Tiger]

This thread just keeps getting better.

[Rupert]

Yeah, they're too much of a big pudding to be a weekend car.  A weekend car should have three pedals and no roof. 

Actually, a roof is OK, but that's a detail.

[Rupert]

No way

You would cut down on maintenance & gas mileage significantly by making these night/weekend cars. If I were to have one of these as a DD I'd have to spend the $$$ on a pristine one.

I could see that if you were into cruising and such...

[Eye of the Tiger]

No ways, dudes. If I had one of these 12-cylinder beats, I'd quad-turbocharge it and put drag radials on the back, but leave the rest stock, then go out street racing punks in their riced out Civics and Swifts.

[Raza]

No ways, dudes. If I had one of these 12-cylinder beats, I'd quad-turbocharge it and put drag radials on the back, but leave the rest stock, then go out street racing punks in their riced out Civics and Swifts.

You'd lose.

[Eye of the Tiger]

You'd lose.

Yeah, but it'd look cool.

[Vinsanity]

In ten years, driving that same Camcord won't be quite so intelligent.
The Camcord becomes obsolete.
The respect it inspires is based chiefly on how efficiently it can move you from point to point.

Actually, I do hate to admit it, but owning a 10-year-old Camcord still makes more sense than owning a 10-year-old V12 S-class or 7-series...


...which of course totally does nothing to stop me from wanting those sexy beasts

[CALL_911]

Out of all these, I'll take an 850CSi.

[cawimmer430]

[ChrisV]

His argument never changed. The idea that the CamCord is objectively better in the given categories was offered as support for the idea that they are better choices for someone on a limited budget. Reliability, fuel economy, power, safety, etc... are all reasons to choose a new mainstream over an old exotic when you're worried about cash.

Objectively, my BMW 740 has been a financially smarter move than an '08 Camcord, speaking strictly dollars and cents. My buy-in was $7500. I've spent another $1000 in repairs over the last 2.5+ years. Outside of mods (which I don't count as they were not necessary, thus outside the scope of this particular discussion), The basic cost thus has been about $8500. A savings of over $16,000 vs his hypothetical '08 Camcord (that would have a warranty and zero repair costs). Now, at this current point, I could sell my car for $6000-7000 due to the condition I've kept it in (and since mods don't add to the value, as many people state, again they are not added into the cost). If I sold it now, that depreciation would bring the total cost of ownership for this time period to about $2000 max: sale price - (original purchase price + repairs) = TCO. The depreciation on an '08 Camcord over the same time period, while very good for cars of their class, would still be in the neighborhood of $4000-5000 or more, bringing meaning you'd still be out over $5k after getting your sale price.

Add in the savings in insurance, sales tax, etc, and the fuel savings of the newer Camcord (which is actually not that much in comparison: my car gets 30 mpg highway on regular fuel. the 750s regularly return 22-24 mpg highway) pales considerably. Even more if each car is financed instead of purchased outright, as the interest on the financing will be vastly more for a $25k+ car vs a $7500 car.

Simply put, even with a warranty and zero repair costs, an '08 Camcord will be a vastly more expensive and less budget friendly car objectively than my "exotic luxury car." And from direct experience, the same can be sad for the V12 version. So leaving out anything in steering feel, responsiveness, etc out of it, objectively, these older cars can make vastly more financial sense for someone on a budget. Like me.

Then when you add in all the other factors, like steering feel, road feel, style, etc, there is simply no contest.

[Tave]

-Do those repair costs reflect the work you did or just the parts?
-Does your example reflect of average cost of ownership of a BMW 7-Series or just yours?
-Most importantly, how does the equation balance when you substitute a new Accord for a used Accord of similar mileage and a condition as the BMW?

Some other things to consider:

Time spent in the shop costs you more than the dollar amount on the bill. Service networks for and/or mechanic garages that accept exotics are fewer and farther between than those that work on mainstream brands.

[Byteme]

Actually, I do hate to admit it, but owning a 10-year-old Camcord still makes more sense than owning a 10-year-old V12 S-class or 7-series...


...which of course totally does nothing to stop me from wanting those sexy beasts

Depends on what you want a second car for.  Lets compare and this is just one man's opinion.

10 year old Camry                                                 69 Jaguar E-type

Still depreciating                                                   Appreciating

Not much fun to work on                                        Fun to work on (hey, it's a hobby)

Will never turn heads or win a concours                    4 time Jaguar Clubs of North America National Champion
                                                                        and I've had people pull up beside me on the highway
                                                                        with cameras clicking away (others enjoy seeing it on the road)
                                                                        I've been invited to show my car at concours which gave me the opportunity
                                                                        to meet people like Buzz Aldrin, Sterling Moss, Ed Hermann and Cliff Robertson.

Dated looks                                                         Usually in the top 5 on any best looking car of all time list

Cheap to insure                                                    Cheaper to insure (believe it or not, full coverage under $200/yr)

Cheap to operate                                                  Expensive to operate and maintain by comparison, 18-22 MPG, $6,000 to rebuild the engine
                                                                        $7,000 for a bare metal respray, $3,000 for an interior kit. Am I upside down investment wise?
                                                                        I have the receipts but never bothered to add them up, it doesn't matter to me.

Fun to Drive? Beats me, never driven one.                 Goes without saying.

Ownership experience:   ??                                     Priceless. You only have one shot at life on this planet, why reduce your time here to a
                                                                        set of equations?  



               


My last post in this topic.

[CaMIRO]

10 year old Camry
Ownership experience:   ??

[ChrisV]

-Do those repair costs reflect the work you did or just the parts?

My example doe just count parts cost. As labor is just spare time (unless it takes away from my real job and earning money, then it's time that would otherwise notbe makihng money, and as such is without monetary cost)

But, you have a choice whether or not to learn how to work on your own car and save that money. Manuals exist for all relatively modern cars. Most of the owners I know choose to work on their own cars even if they've never worked on a car before in their lives, and realize the combined accomplishment of saving money AND completing a task. If you CHOOSE not to exercise that ability, then you CHOOSE to spend more, and thus like mods to the car, it's an ELECTIVE cost.

-Does your example reflect of average cost of ownership of a BMW 7-Series or just yours?

Add about $2-3k over this time period for the average (most are less, due to working on the cars themselves, some are more, due to electing not to). Still a substantial savings over the cost of a new car, which is relly why most of us do it.

-Most importantly, how does the equation balance when you substitute a new Accord for a used Accord of similar mileage and a condition as the BMW?

Most importantly? I'd say, with regards to THIS thread, LEAST importantly! While financially you can end up much better with the old Camcord (though it may still need repairs regularly. There's a reason Honda/Toyota independent garages have not gone out of business. The reputation isn't as true as a lot of people would like to admit), you then lose out on all the other supposedly "objective" reasons that Cougs used to say the '08 was a better choice: the acceleration, the G forces, the braking, the 300 hp, the luxury features, etc. Plus the style. Now you're merely talking about a 10 year old economy sedan vs the top of the line luxury sport sedan of the same era. The is NO comparison at that point. Remember, the whole point of the Accord argument was that an '08 has all the features of an older luxury car AND objectively better performance numbers on paper. Remove all that and the argument falls on it's face in a BIG way.

Time spent in the shop costs you more than the dollar amount on the bill.

True whether you are paying for that service or it's warranty work. And since most owners of the cars we are discussing here (older luxury sport sedans and coules) will not have them as their only car (I don't. No one I know does) any down time means nothing to earning power, as there is always another car to drive. That can't be said for most owners of a newer economy sedan.

Service networks for and/or mechanic garages that accept exotics are fewer and farther between than those that work on mainstream brands.

We aren't talking about Ferraris here. German specialist shops are all over, and often in places you wouldn't expect for example, last weekend coming back from the ocean, out in rural Eastern MD, we passed a BMW/Mercedes specialist shop hours away from any metropolitan area. In fact, there were no Honda shops anywhere near it. This is also probably true in rural midwest. And with the advent of the internet, location is no longer important to the aquiring of parts, with parts for cars like these BMWs being readily available to any garage if you break down in left bumfukt as they are in the heart of a major metropolitan area.

[Galaxy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4exPauh5X_w

/thread.



Seriously watch the video. Almost brought a tear to my eye.

[sportyaccordy]

^^^Good commercial

[Eye of the Tiger]

Oddly enough, I want to buy a 911 Turbo now.