Does driving stickshift really make you a better driver?

[Rupert]

If you've been driving stick long enough you don't need to watch the tach or even make much of a conscious effort to drive normally. At least I don't. If anything it is a distraction; especially if you have an engine with a finicky power band.,

You don't make a conscious effort to shift? Your arm and legs just move by themselves?

I don't expend too much effort on shifting anymore, but it's still on my mind. I still think "shift" before I shift.

[ChrisV]

You don't make a conscious effort to shift? Your arm and legs just move by themselves?

I don't expend too much effort on shifting anymore, but it's still on my mind. I still think "shift" before I shift.

Do you think to walk? Do you think about foot placement and which muscles to move when changing directions while walking, especially if you are watching something else or talking to the person next to you while walking?

Seriously, it's that much effort once you're good at it.

Sometimes you think about foot placement while walking, and sometimes you think about shift points and how you are doing it. But MOST of the time, not so much.

[ChrisV]

Always being in the right gear on a twisty two laner most certainly adds to the fun.  If I have to step on the gas when coming out of a corner and have to wait for the car to downshift one or two gears before I start accelerating, it most certainly takes away from the fun.

What part of "if you don't even notice it" are you not getting? OF COURSE if you're in a twisty mountain road and making the effort to shift properly and do all that then yes, it adds to it because You ARE noticing it and making a conscious effort to shift to maximize performance. But I was talking about not noticing shifting while driving around normally running errands and commuting. If you're simply driving around and shifting on muscle memory and typical commuting short shifting (not revving it to redline, or trying to extract maximum performance) then it isn't adding anything to the fun because you aren't really even noticing doing it at that point. Or to anything else (i.e. if you're not actually paying conscious attention to the shift because you're good at it, it isn't making you pay attention to the outside world any more, either).

Jesus fucking christ.

I've asked this before, and maybe someone near me can actually take me up on my offer. Ride with me on my commute and point out 1) where shifting adds fun, and 2) how much fun it adds. Quantify it. And then ride with me again in my 740 and point out on that same commute where I LOST "fun" and how much I lost. Quantify that, too.

And then we'll go down to the high speed indoor kart track near Dulles (where I get a BMW Club discount) and show me that it's impossible for you to have fun cornering and extracting maximum performance on those karts that have no shifters at all. Give me a spreadsheet with a graph of how little fun those karts are.

[SVT666]

And then we'll go down to the high speed indoor kart track near Dulles (where I get a BMW Club discount) and show me that it's impossible for you to have fun cornering and extracting maximum performance on those karts that have no shifters at all. Give me a spreadsheet with a graph of how little fun those karts are.

They also don't have gears, so they're always in the right gear.

[the Teuton]

I've been driving stick for 2 months now, and I have to say that I'm not sure if it's the car or me, but I think I'm actually driving a little more predictably now.

75 mph on the highway instead of 80 in the Impreza, more focused on when lights turn green so I can put the car in 1st, and all of that jazz.

It takes a lot more skill to drive stick, and I don't know if I'd be driving faster if I felt more comfortable with the suspension or not.

[Rupert]

Do you think to walk? Do you think about foot placement and which muscles to move when changing directions while walking, especially if you are watching something else or talking to the person next to you while walking?

Seriously, it's that much effort once you're good at it.

Sometimes you think about foot placement while walking, and sometimes you think about shift points and how you are doing it. But MOST of the time, not so much.

Maybe you can shift while sleeping, but, like I said, I still think "shift" when I shift, every time.

[JWC]

It's kind of funny reading posts about the "skill" to drive a manual transmission.   Watch some old movies sometime.    Everyone knew how to drive a stick shift. You didn't have a choice. Those transmissions were more difficult to shift than the ones we have now.

When was the last time anyone here drove a three-on-the-tree?  Those were just plain fun.

[ifcar]

It's kind of funny reading posts about the "skill" to drive a manual transmission.   Watch some old movies sometime.    Everyone knew how to drive a stick shift. You didn't have a choice. Those transmissions were more difficult to shift than the ones we have now.

When was the last time anyone here drove a three-on-the-tree?  Those were just plain fun.

And in those days, there were presumably some grumpy old holdouts talking about all these lazy bastards who never had to start their cars with hand cranks.

[TBR]

Always being in the right gear on a twisty two laner most certainly adds to the fun.  If I have to step on the gas when coming out of a corner and have to wait for the car to downshift one or two gears before I start accelerating, it most certainly takes away from the fun.

You don't have to have a clutch pedal to be in the right gear anymore.

[JWC]

And in those days, there were presumably some grumpy old holdouts talking about all these lazy bastards who never had to start their cars with hand cranks.

Yeah, it's easy to forget that at one time: 

You had to crank the engine over by hand, control the choke, adjust the timing, and shift gears.  Both women and men did it and did it everyday.  Again, you had no choice.  The shifting gears part carried on well into the commuting age, post WWII.

Now, if you push a clutch pedal in and move a lever, it is considered "special".

Don't forget, at one time you had to stop the car and "light" the headlamps.

[AltinD]

Definitely awesome, but they have nothing on the WRC guys for car control.

Here's a Rally Champion's (and owner of every exotic car on the planet) take on a 2009 F1 car

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJpURLp4wYI

[sportyaccordy]

LMAOOOO TOTAL TOTAL TOTAL TOTAL

[Rich]

Here's a Rally Champion's (and owner of every exotic car on the planet) take on a 2009 F1 car

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJpURLp4wYI

Thats why the dude never made it to WRC

[Raza]

I think driving a stick makes you more aware of how a car works, and forces you to pay a little more attention than you would need to when driving an automatic.  Not that you couldn't pay that much attention when driving an automatic.

What makes a good driver, to me, is thinking ahead, planning for disasters, and above all, paying attention.  Awareness is everything.  Nothing ever truly "comes out of nowhere"; you just didn't see it.  You have to anticipate. 

[Raza]

You don't make a conscious effort to shift? Your arm and legs just move by themselves?

I don't expend too much effort on shifting anymore, but it's still on my mind. I still think "shift" before I shift.

I also assess corner arcs and traction on surfaces before I decide which gear I want to be in when exiting the corner.  I think about what gear would be best for merging on to the highway based on weather conditions, traffic conditions, and visibility.  I think about how much I need to blip the throttle for a smooth down change, I think about dropping an extra gear or slipping the clutch more when on a steep hill. 

If you're not thinking about something when you're driving, you're doing something wrong.  Driving isn't a singular action; it's millions of calculations being processed at once, with millions of variables that could alter your equation. 

[TBR]

I also assess corner arcs and traction on surfaces before I decide which gear I want to be in when exiting the corner.  I think about what gear would be best for merging on to the highway based on weather conditions, traffic conditions, and visibility.  I think about how much I need to blip the throttle for a smooth down change, I think about dropping an extra gear or slipping the clutch more when on a steep hill. 

If you're not thinking about something when you're driving, you're doing something wrong.  Driving isn't a singular action; it's millions of calculations being processed at once, with millions of variables that could alter your equation. 

You consciously think of all that or does it just happen? I don't go into a corner thinking, "Well I need to be in 2nd gear for this", I just do it.

[S204STi]

I think it's one of those message board circle jerk arguments. As far as public driving goes, I think the main criterion for being a good driver is making smart, low risk decisions on the road, being courteous and basically not being a threat to yourself, other drivers or property. Driving stick bears very little relation to that... adn IMO, the argument could be made that stickshift drivers, in all their enthusiasm, would be more dangerous than the point A to point B auto driver...

Saw this on another message board... thoughts?

I tend to agree pretty much completely with this assessment.  Driving stick means you are better at operating the machine itself due to the amount of skill required being greater, but that doesn't necessarily make you a better driver.

[S204STi]

You consciously think of all that or does it just happen? I don't go into a corner thinking, "Well I need to be in 2nd gear for this", I just do it.

I think, for me anyway, it goes from conscious thought to intuition.  Though I am constantly analyzing things as I drive, so there is a combination of both aspects for me.

[Byteme]

I've asked this before, and maybe someone near me can actually take me up on my offer. Ride with me on my commute and point out 1) where shifting adds fun, and 2) how much fun it adds. Quantify it. And then ride with me again in my 740 and point out on that same commute where I LOST "fun" and how much I lost. Quantify that, too.

It may not add any fun for you,  it might for someone else.Fun, pleasure, whatever is subjective.  Personally I get a bit of pleasure out of a smooth take off from a stop or a well timed shift up or down a gear.  Is it the highlight of my day?  No.  , does it add a bit of fun or interest to the commute?  Yes.

[r0tor]

I'm going to say yes it makes you a better and safer driver because if you have a manual transmission you generally need two free hands to drive which greatly reduces the amount of texting, eating cereal, reading the news paper, and putting on make-up that you can do while driving...

[FoMoJo]

Does driving stickshift really make you a better driver?

It doesn't make my wife a better driver .

[S204STi]

I'm going to say yes it makes you a better and safer driver because if you have a manual transmission you generally need two free hands to drive which greatly reduces the amount of texting, eating cereal, reading the news paper, and putting on make-up that you can do while driving...

All of those points are good if you have the good judgment to act that way.  I've seen people do some odd things while driving stick.  Being a good driver ultimately comes down to personal judgment, or a lack thereof.

[sportyaccordy]

I'm going to say yes it makes you a better and safer driver because if you have a manual transmission you generally need two free hands to drive which greatly reduces the amount of texting, eating cereal, reading the news paper, and putting on make-up that you can do while driving...

I will probably get stoned for this but I can enter locations onto Google Maps in my BB and operate my Ipod just fine with a stickshift. Where there's a will, there's a way. So the assumption that ppl who drive stick don't get distracted is false.

[Raza]

You consciously think of all that or does it just happen? I don't go into a corner thinking, "Well I need to be in 2nd gear for this", I just do it.

It happens pretty quickly; I mean, for some corners, like 90 degree turns, I know it's a 2nd gear corner and I just grab it, but for other stuff, yeah, I do think about it.  Like I said, it's a million calculations going on at the same time.  It's not like I get into the car and think "It's wet, so I have to exit corners one gear up or take it easy on the throttle" and then I'm done with thinking for when I drive.  But even if I don't think it out each time--like if the words don't sound out in my head--the assessment is still there.  I think it's there for most people, even if they don't notice it. 

That was a bit rambling and disjointed, as I didn't write this post all at once.  Let me know if it makes any sense or not.

[sportyaccordy]

It happens pretty quickly; I mean, for some corners, like 90 degree turns, I know it's a 2nd gear corner and I just grab it, but for other stuff, yeah, I do think about it.  Like I said, it's a million calculations going on at the same time.  It's not like I get into the car and think "It's wet, so I have to exit corners one gear up or take it easy on the throttle" and then I'm done with thinking for when I drive.  But even if I don't think it out each time--like if the words don't sound out in my head--the assessment is still there.  I think it's there for most people, even if they don't notice it. 

That was a bit rambling and disjointed, as I didn't write this post all at once.  Let me know if it makes any sense or not.

I may just be drawing at straws here, but that doesn't require much thought on my part. I can hear + feel the engine bogging when it's in too high of a gear, and things get very loud + annoying if it's in too low of a gear.

More importantly though, with a well sorted manumatic you could focus your brain power on the turn. If you jump into a corner in too high a gear and are looking to make haste, forget about it. The momentum is lost.

[FoMoJo]

Do you think to walk? Do you think about foot placement and which muscles to move when changing directions while walking, especially if you are watching something else or talking to the person next to you while walking?

Seriously, it's that much effort once you're good at it.

Sometimes you think about foot placement while walking, and sometimes you think about shift points and how you are doing it. But MOST of the time, not so much.

I tend to agree with this.  Shifting seems to happen more on a peripheral level once you've done it awhile. 

I say this from an experience I once had just prior to crashing my Alfa Spider into the front wheel of a black mid '70s DeVille occupied by 5 women from St. Louis Missouri which had just made an illegal left turn directly in front of me as I was cruising through an intersection at 50 mph.  As a habit, I had always declutched and shifted into neutral then let the clutch back in on approaching a stop.  This is to decrease wear on the throw-out bearing. 

Now I can't say exactly how far away I was when the Caddy lurched in front of me or how long I had to react before slamming into the front wheel but, at a guess, it was about 25 feet and about half a second.  Needless to say, about the last thing I was thinking of was shifting gears.  However, after the explosive impact and the realization that I was still in one piece with no limbs dangling off me and no pools of blood, I noticed that the shift lever was in neutral with the engine still ticking over; well it was more of a clatter as the front of the car, including the radiator had been pushed back into the motor.

Granted, time did slow down during this incident and the image of that wheel cover is emblazoned in my memory forever and I can still replay the visual from the moment I saw the car in front of me, but all else was reflex.  Some may say that the shift lever may have shifted due to the impact but all four wheels were locked for about 15 feet prior to impact.  That alone would have killed the engine. 

[NomisR]

I think a lot of you guys think too much when shifting, it just happens and it's done.  Sometimes, I do find myself wondering what gear I'm in because it just gets done. 

Only different in shifting would be the mindset depends on conditions, on the streets, I would be shifting a lot earlier while on the track or spirited driving, I would be driving closer to the redline to stay in optimal gear and power range. 

[MX793]

You don't have to have a clutch pedal to be in the right gear anymore.

Depends on the car.  There are still a few cars out there that don't offer a manumatic mode with the automatic gearbox (including the Mustang, which further only gives you access to manually select 4 or the 5 gears with the shifter if you tried to shift it manually).  Also, I can't think of any automatics that rev match downshifts in cars costing less than 30K (there are a select few that offer DSGs in the mid 20K range).  Drivetrain lurch when downshifting during a spirited drive in the twisties is disconcerting, to say the least.

[hotrodalex]

I think someone said this before, but driving a stick makes you cut out other distractions more, as you need both hands for a couple seconds every once in awhile.

[Tave]

Shifting isn't any more unconscious for me than turning a corner or slowing down for a stop sign.

If you're not thinking about something when you're driving, you're doing something wrong.  Driving isn't a singular action; it's millions of calculations being processed at once, with millions of variables that could alter your equation.  

Eh--hopefully you're paying attention most of the time, but haven't you ever (usually on a long drive) thought to yourself, "damn, I can't remember a single fucking thing that happened in the last 15 minutes?" That's why we put so much effort into training new drivers (or should). Sometimes you just drive on instinct. It's unavoidable. Take any defensive driving course and they'll tell you exactly that. Hopefully you've developed good habits so that lapse in focused concentration doesn't cause any problems.

I get as much enjoyment out of driving stick as I do lowering my windows, or driving along a really pretty road, or listening to a great CD, or hitting a corner just right, etc...It's just another piece of the puzzle. I don't agree with Chris that you don't think about/notice shifting, at least not any more than you don't think about/notice anything else.