Lite Mercedes C-Class Facelift

[GoCougs]

Badge snobbery - it means the world to some people. With the added "benefit" that a loaded Camry/Accord will be more reliable, be cheaper to maintain/repair, and have better resale value.

[2o6]

But you still didn't answer the question on what tangable advantage to get a stripper luxury vehicle over something else and pay a lot more for it? 

Driving experience.


Besides, car buying is an emotional pursuit, otherwise "soulful" cars would not exist.

Badge snobbery - it means the world to some people. With the added "benefit" that a loaded Camry/Accord will be more reliable, be cheaper to maintain/repair, and have better resale value.

And boring.

[GoCougs]

And boring.

So what exactly about their respective driving experiences makes a C300 not boring, and an Accord EX-L V6 boring?

[Vinsanity]

Because to most Europeans your standard C-Class has all the things they need. A base C200 CDI Classic - the lowest C-Class engine and trim available - comes with 2-Zone A/C and heating, electric windows front/rear, ABS/ESP, the same number of airbags all around as a C63 AMG, a radio, heated exterior side mirrors, rear window defroster and a few other minor details (http://www.mercedes-benz.de/content/germany/mpc/mpc_germany_website/de/home_mpc/passengercars/home/new_cars/models/c-class/w204/equipment_accessories/standard_optional_equipment.html).

To most Europeans, including myself, these are things that we need and these days expect as standard in our cars. Other things like an automatic transmission or a navigation system or leather seats are VALID options that people can order if they want or need it. For your average European, this is everything they require in a luxury or mainstream car. If they want more they can order it. In fact individualizing your car here is a big thing and getting the options YOU WANT is part of the appeal.

In fact most people spend the extra cash on other optionals. The most popular in general are a higher trim (Elegance / Avantgarde), automatic transmission, perhaps 4-Zone climate control and maybe different rims. Other options which are popular are MB-Tex or real leather seats, a navigation and more advanced radio system, a hands-free cellphone system etc.

Okay, but why pay a premium over say, a Mondeo or Avensis with the same equipment?

[2o6]

So what exactly about their respective driving experiences makes a C300 not boring, and an Accord EX-L V6 boring?

Is this a serious question?

[GoCougs]

Is this a serious question?

It is for you (read: as you've never driven and thus have zero context in which to make a judgment).

[2o6]

Okay, but why pay a premium over say, a Mondeo or Avensis with the same equipment?

Fit and Finish. Europeans like quality over quantity, whereas in the US, it's the opposite.

It is for you (read: as you've never driven and thus have zero context in which to make a judgment).

Never driven?


It's like comparing a Solara to a Genesis. Both are four place coupes that are similarly priced, but they're VERY different. Most notably, one is RWD. I'm pretty sure that the C is stiffer, and the fit and finish of the C (and general materials quality) is better than the Accord.

[2o6]

Even so, car buying is an emotional decision. Otherwise, there would only be one car for sale.

[GoCougs]

Stiffness in and of itself isn't the be-all and end-all, but yeah, I'd take the bet that the C-class isn't materially stiffer than an Accord. As to interior materials? Perhaps. I'd argue that the Solara was more a 2-door sedan than it was a coupe and even if it wasn't it's not the same analogy

And "emotion" = buying a badge, which is indeed a lot of what drives buyers today. Think people would pay $200+ for an iPod nano if it wasn't made by Apple? And even Honda and Toyota fall prey to badge worship as well WRT to domestic or Korean cars.

[CALL_911]

So what exactly about their respective driving experiences makes a C300 not boring, and an Accord EX-L V6 boring?

Lets sub in the 328i for the C300.

Does your argument still hold? You're batshit crazy if you think your Accord drives every bit as well as a 3er.

[the Teuton]

Lets sub in the 328i for the C300.

Does your argument still hold? You're batshit crazy if you think your Accord drives every bit as well as a 3er.

But is  a 328i a better car for the money? That's highly debatable.

[CALL_911]

But is  a 328i a better car for the money? That's highly debatable.

"Better" is a multi-dimensional term.

For me, it's much better.

[the Teuton]

"Better" is a multi-dimensional term.

For me, it's much better.

For someone who doesn't have a family and generally wants a more engaging car, it would be.

For someone who wants a car that is:
-Larger
-More powerful
-More fuel efficient
-Cheaper to own
-Easier to drive in foul weather
-And generally a bit more reliable

The Honda wins hands down.

[CALL_911]

For someone who doesn't have a family and generally wants a more engaging car, it would be.

For someone who wants a car that is:
-Larger
-More powerful
-More fuel efficient
-Cheaper to own
-Easier to drive in foul weather
-And generally a bit more reliable

The Honda wins hands down.

So the 3er is aimed at a different niche in the market than the Accord is. The Accord is better, but in a different way. From a practical standpoint, the Accord wins, hands down. From a dynamic/enthusiast POV, the 3er wins, hands down.

[the Teuton]

So the 3er is aimed at a different niche in the market than the Accord is. The Accord is better, but in a different way. From a practical standpoint, the Accord wins, hands down. From a dynamic/enthusiast POV, the 3er wins, hands down.

Definitely. My boss wants to get a C300 4Matic. I have told him to consider the A4 instead, but I have not told him because I think it's a better car.

He seems really set on that badge. Some people just are.

Think about it: Would you rather have a bag full of Old Navy "dress" clothes or a Brooks Bros. suit for the same money? The badge is often a huge amount of emotional commitment and reassurance in a purchase.

[omicron]

Thank you for that diversion!!  One of the best looking cars of all time.  The lines, the details, the cleanliness - just awesome, then and now.

I prefer this diversion to the ill-informed tosh being bandied about in this thread.

[Raza]

You heard it here first, world.  Cars are really only what they appear to be on spec sheets.

[Raza]

Badge snobbery - it means the world to some people. With the added "benefit" that a loaded Camry/Accord will be more reliable, be cheaper to maintain/repair, and have better resale value.

And drive like shit.  (Well, the Accord is okay, but still a snooze compared to an entry lux car.)

[Hachee]

I can't believe this is still going on.

Wimmer, really, you argue that Europeans buy cars with smaller engines because they're sufficient, then because the taxes on fuel and cars with larger engines are so high....and because this is done to save the environment?   Come on, maybe this is true to some extent now that the world is more conscious of it, but fuel taxes in Europe have been high forever - and that's simply because governments used them to raise revenue...just another source of funds.  It did have the effect, along wiith old, narrow streets, of gearing the continent as a whole towards generally smaller, more efficient cars.  Which is great.

And until recently in the US, this was not the case.  But as soon as fuel prices when sky high, we saw what happened - the market for big, inefficient cars collapsed.  And when it keeps happening, and stays that way, we'll finally see a fundamental shift in the size of cars and their engines.  Money talks - here, Europe and all over the world.

And you think luxury and technology equipment is developed just for sale to Americans?  All over the world, people like the same shit, and buy them if they can afford them and/or think they are worth the money.  I'd like to do a comparison of relative income levels in the US and Europe and see how much of one's income it takes to buy a car, a house, etc.  I think the relative cost of buying a car there is much higher, hence the reason for lower equipment levels.  And 2 zone air and power windows all around in a base C-Class?  Why is that?  Not long ago, these were options.  People get used to shit, and like shit, all over the world...it just takes longer in some places then others. 

I'll agree that badge/prestige is important to some people, but you do need to recognize that this is basically "I care what others think of me and what I drive".  History and heritage, sure...but Ford and Chevy and Peugeot have plenty of history too.  I'm a car guy, and I still think the drive of a BMW is better than a Honda (and maybe I'm just convincing myself now), but even I admit that I consider what others think when I buy a BMW. 

Now, about that C-Class....I just rented a C300 (RWD) for a long weekend in LA, but pretty much only used it one day, and drove all around the hills and canyons, and to dinner one night.  It's a lovely car.  It's smooth, has a great ride, handles well, has sufficient performance (i.e., acceleration), an unobtrusive transmission, and very quiet...and yes, very comfortable.  It did have an odd vibration in the steering wheel at idle, though.  It's nimble, but would I call it really sporty?  No, not like the new 328xi Coupe I drove recently (a similar car, although not directly comparable) or even my 2004 325xi.  Compared to these, the C300 is quieter, feels more isolated, but has less steering feel, and simply doesn't feel as sporty.  Worse because of that?  Certainly not.  But probably shouldn't be the choice for someone who's looking for that true sport sedan.  My wife didn't drive it, but I know she'd be happier with it than the 325xi.  The C reminded me very much of the IS250 (but was quicker) I had last year on a similar trip, and this is not an insult.  I can see many people being perfectly happy with the C (or the IS, for that matter).  While there's overlap, there are still differences between the 3-Series and C Class - which is the way it should be.  Some people would be fine with both, others more so with one or the other. 

And the C300 was certainly well enough equipped for me, and sufficiently "luxurious" (i.e., more MB than Jaguar).  Fit and finish were great, materials fine - no worse than BMW - but somehow felt a bit subpar for what could easily be a $50K car.  Not even close to what I had in my 1998 Audi A6, but I don't think even Audi gives you that anymore, not for anything less than an A8.

Oh, and the hotel drove us to and from dinner one night in an S550, which felt quite a lot more luxurious and expensive (and should) than the C300.  I always think all I really "need" is in the "lower level" models like the C/E, 3/5, etc, until I get in a car like an S or 7 or A8 - they really don't suck.

[GoCougs]

Lets sub in the 328i for the C300.

Does your argument still hold? You're batshit crazy if you think your Accord drives every bit as well as a 3er.

What other irrelevancies shall we throw in; say a '68 Skylark maybe?

You're similarly BS crazy if believe enthusiasts are buying the lion's share of 3er new off of dealer lots. The 3er I have no doubt has a larger new-car enthusiast following than the C series (or A3/A4) but it suffers the same phenomenon to only a moderately lesser degree: low hanging fruit WRT people wanting to strut above their station.

[CALL_911]

What other irrelevancies shall we throw in; say a '68 Skylark maybe?

You're similarly BS crazy if believe enthusiasts are buying the lion's share of 3er new off of dealer lots. The 3er I have no doubt has a larger new-car enthusiast following than the C series (or A3/A4) but it suffers the same phenomenon to only a moderately lesser degree: low hanging fruit WRT people wanting to strut above their station.

Would a '68 Skylark be comparable to a C300 or Accord in the same way a 328i is? I didn't think so.

I don't believe enthusiasts are buying the lion's share of 3ers new off dealer lots. But we're arguing about what the car delivers, aren't we? In that respect, I think you'd agree with me that the 3er delivers, dynamically.

[CALL_911]

Cougs, I think you are what's known as a "hater," to a great degree.

Let's say you don't know me at all. So if I bought a 328i, without sport package, with an automatic, you'd automatically assume I'm a poser, right? I think that's a bit ridiculous too.

[nickdrinkwater]

I can't believe this is still going on.

Wimmer, really, you argue that Europeans buy cars with smaller engines because they're sufficient, then because the taxes on fuel and cars with larger engines are so high....and because this is done to save the environment?   Come on, maybe this is true to some extent now that the world is more conscious of it, but fuel taxes in Europe have been high forever - and that's simply because governments used them to raise revenue...just another source of funds.  It did have the effect, along wiith old, narrow streets, of gearing the continent as a whole towards generally smaller, more efficient cars.  Which is great.

Thank you.  Nail on head.

I don't drive my Ibiza because I'm 'realistic'.  I drive it because a) it's all I can afford right now and b) it is cheap to fuel, tax and insure. 

Another example: my father drives a 1.9TDI Passat, which is a company car.  Company car tax in the UK is based on emissions.  The more the car pollutes, the more you pay.

If fuel was cheap and tax and insurance less costly, do you really think everyone would be driving 1.9TDI Audis and 1.6TDCI Focuses?  The fact that so many people in the UK drive relatively thirsty, polluting cars despite the vast sacrifices that go with it suggests that if they everyone could do that, they would.

[NomisR]

And drive like shit.  (Well, the Accord is okay, but still a snooze compared to an entry lux car.)

I wouldn't even say a snooze, especially when compared to an even lower entry level car that what is available in the US which is what Wimmer was arguing.  He's saying a really low end entry model luxury car that is as fast as Nick's Swift with bare min standard equipment is a better buy than a fully loaded V6 Accord because of it's badge?  

[GoCougs]

Would a '68 Skylark be comparable to a C300 or Accord in the same way a 328i is? I didn't think so.

I don't believe enthusiasts are buying the lion's share of 3ers new off dealer lots. But we're arguing about what the car delivers, aren't we? In that respect, I think you'd agree with me that the 3er delivers, dynamically.

Of course I agree that the 3er is an altogether different drive than a Camcord, and to a lesser extent so is the C-series and A3/A4. That actually hasn't been my argument; I think people keep going there because it deflects from my point.

Cougs, I think you are what's known as a "hater," to a great degree.

Let's say you don't know me at all. So if I bought a 328i, without sport package, with an automatic, you'd automatically assume I'm a poser, right? I think that's a bit ridiculous too.

I'm not hating at all - I'm just picking and poking on a point that is pretty obvious to me.

As an extreme example I'd say if you're a ditsy chick that got the car as a graduation present from daddy, yes I'd consider you a poser of the badge worshiping kind.

[CALL_911]

Of course I agree that the 3er is an altogether different drive than a Camcord, and to a lesser extent so is the C-series and A3/A4. That actually hasn't been my argument; I think people keep going there because it deflects from my point.


I'm not hating at all - I'm just picking and poking on a point that is pretty obvious to me.

As an extreme example I'd say if you're a ditsy chick that got the car as a graduation present from daddy, yes I'd consider you a poser of the badge worshiping kind.

I think I'd group the A4 in that category with the 3er, but to a lesser extent. We had a TL before our A4, which, as you know, is a gussied up 7th gen Accord. The A4 is a much better drive than the TL was. Sure, the TL was faster, and it had a better stereo, but that was about it.

Agreed with the ditsy chick example. I do see reason to buy a C-Class/3er over a Camcord, however

[Raza]

Cougs, I think you are what's known as a "hater," to a great degree.

Let's say you don't know me at all. So if I bought a 328i, without sport package, with an automatic, you'd automatically assume I'm a poser, right? I think that's a bit ridiculous too.

To call Cougs a hater is not entirely accurate.  What he's saying is certainly true for some people.  It's his grand generalization that is idiotic. 

[GoCougs]

I think I'd group the A4 in that category with the 3er, but to a lesser extent. We had a TL before our A4, which, as you know, is a gussied up 7th gen Accord. The A4 is a much better drive than the TL was. Sure, the TL was faster, and it had a better stereo, but that was about it.

Agreed with the ditsy chick example. I do see reason to buy a C-Class/3er over a Camcord, however

MY POINT IS that the vast majority of people (not you, not Raza, not the small percentage of enthusiasts) buying these cars of the lot new make no such distinction; they're buying the badge.

[Raza]

MY POINT IS that the vast majority of people (not you, not Raza, not the small percentage of enthusiasts) buying these cars of the lot new make no such distinction; they're buying the badge.

That's better.   

I don't think it's the vast majority, though.  Perhaps initially, but I think there are a good number who like who the car drives, even if they can't discuss or justify it with the clarity that you or I can (e.g., they don't know to say they like the ride/handling compromise, or engine smoothness, or ride quality, et al, but they know they like how it drives). 

If BMW, Audi, and Mercedes have equal status (for argument's sake) and their competitive cars cost about the same, there must be something not quantifiable about why someone would choose one over the other. 

[cawimmer430]

I can't believe this is still going on.

Wimmer, really, you argue that Europeans buy cars with smaller engines because they're sufficient, then because the taxes on fuel and cars with larger engines are so high....and because this is done to save the environment?   Come on, maybe this is true to some extent now that the world is more conscious of it, but fuel taxes in Europe have been high forever - and that's simply because governments used them to raise revenue...just another source of funds.  It did have the effect, along wiith old, narrow streets, of gearing the continent as a whole towards generally smaller, more efficient cars.  Which is great.

And until recently in the US, this was not the case.  But as soon as fuel prices when sky high, we saw what happened - the market for big, inefficient cars collapsed.  And when it keeps happening, and stays that way, we'll finally see a fundamental shift in the size of cars and their engines.  Money talks - here, Europe and all over the world.

And you think luxury and technology equipment is developed just for sale to Americans?  All over the world, people like the same shit, and buy them if they can afford them and/or think they are worth the money.  I'd like to do a comparison of relative income levels in the US and Europe and see how much of one's income it takes to buy a car, a house, etc.  I think the relative cost of buying a car there is much higher, hence the reason for lower equipment levels.  And 2 zone air and power windows all around in a base C-Class?  Why is that?  Not long ago, these were options.  People get used to shit, and like shit, all over the world...it just takes longer in some places then others. 

I'll agree that badge/prestige is important to some people, but you do need to recognize that this is basically "I care what others think of me and what I drive".  History and heritage, sure...but Ford and Chevy and Peugeot have plenty of history too.  I'm a car guy, and I still think the drive of a BMW is better than a Honda (and maybe I'm just convincing myself now), but even I admit that I consider what others think when I buy a BMW. 

Now, about that C-Class....I just rented a C300 (RWD) for a long weekend in LA, but pretty much only used it one day, and drove all around the hills and canyons, and to dinner one night.  It's a lovely car.  It's smooth, has a great ride, handles well, has sufficient performance (i.e., acceleration), an unobtrusive transmission, and very quiet...and yes, very comfortable.  It did have an odd vibration in the steering wheel at idle, though.  It's nimble, but would I call it really sporty?  No, not like the new 328xi Coupe I drove recently (a similar car, although not directly comparable) or even my 2004 325xi.  Compared to these, the C300 is quieter, feels more isolated, but has less steering feel, and simply doesn't feel as sporty.  Worse because of that?  Certainly not.  But probably shouldn't be the choice for someone who's looking for that true sport sedan.  My wife didn't drive it, but I know she'd be happier with it than the 325xi.  The C reminded me very much of the IS250 (but was quicker) I had last year on a similar trip, and this is not an insult.  I can see many people being perfectly happy with the C (or the IS, for that matter).  While there's overlap, there are still differences between the 3-Series and C Class - which is the way it should be.  Some people would be fine with both, others more so with one or the other. 

And the C300 was certainly well enough equipped for me, and sufficiently "luxurious" (i.e., more MB than Jaguar).  Fit and finish were great, materials fine - no worse than BMW - but somehow felt a bit subpar for what could easily be a $50K car.  Not even close to what I had in my 1998 Audi A6, but I don't think even Audi gives you that anymore, not for anything less than an A8.

Oh, and the hotel drove us to and from dinner one night in an S550, which felt quite a lot more luxurious and expensive (and should) than the C300.  I always think all I really "need" is in the "lower level" models like the C/E, 3/5, etc, until I get in a car like an S or 7 or A8 - they really don't suck.

Hachee,

Good post.

By the way I am not implying that Europeans buy cars with smaller engines for the sake of the environment. The taxes and expensive fuel prices we have here have shaped most buyers to be realistic with their car purchases. This means that most people here generally buy cars based on their needs with the appropriate engine choice for this specific need. And this realist viewpoint also applies to luxury cars. One can enjoy a luxury car even with a smaller engine and the normal standard features which already make life easier.

Fully loaded cars are appealing, but many people here question the need for certain standard features inside a car that they will never use. It might sound crazy, but allowing customers to option-out their cars has always been a way of life here and even though this might be pricey, people still see an appeal in that.