Lite Mercedes C-Class Facelift

[Colonel Cadillac]

It wasn't that long ago that Mercedes offered the S-Class here with multiple engine choices "below" the 550 V8.  W116's and W126's offered six cylinder and 5 cyl turbodiesels, as well as different size V8s, and also short wheelbase models.  The W140 offered sixes, in gas and diesel, SWB and LWB.  The next one (I forget the model designation - the one from 2000 on) only offered V8s, the S430 and the S500, and only LWB.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but most buyers chose the smaller, lower powered versions over the the top V8 models.  But Mercedes stopped offering them - why is that?  I'd guess that they figured as the prices rose so high, most people will just pay for the larger, higher profit model if it was the only one offered, and they were probably right.  Gas was cheap, money was flowing.  Now, I think if they offered an S420 or whatever, plenty of people would find it "more thant adequate" and buy it over the 550.

My point is, I really don't think all Americans are HP-obsessed who must have the car with the most.  Again, MOST buyers will never discern the performance difference.

I very rarely saw the S430.

[Cookie Monster]

I very rarely saw the S430.

Really? I always saw the S430... never the S500.

[CALL_911]

I very rarely saw the S430.

+1

[Raza]

"Resemble"?

They're giving buyers a choice here. They can select the C-Class Sport or the C-Class Elegance, the former is more sport-oriented and the latter is more comfort-oriented.

Comfort is a subjective term too, but in general, in my experience and from what I've read, the C-Class had the edge over the 3er in this regard. I've experienced the W204 C-Class too. Some of my testdrives took place for hours and I've found the comfort to be very good. I'm not sure how the 3-Series comes equipped in the US in regards to seats, but here in Europe the standard seats in the 3er are the same as those found in our 118i - too thin and uncomfortable after an hour of driving. I love the 118i, but I'll be honest: the comfort is crap. I can live with the suspension, which isn't bad, but those seats are terrible. If you want proper seats in the 3-Series here, you'll need to pay extra for them. These will be the sport seats, which provide better support and are strangely more comfortable than the standard seats.


That statement was simply made out of frustration.

Still, I figured that your typical American Mercedes client is quite well-off and could afford either a C350 or C63 AMG. They probably purchase the car they feel suits their needs and this might even be a C300.

Someone wants performance will go get a 335i? Hardly. Some people want performance and Mercedes and for them the C350 performs well enough. I don't think they care if the C350 is a full second slower than a 335i or S4 etc. And if they did then they wouldn't get a C350. It's safe to say that Mercedes knows what their customers want. The feeling I am getting is that most MB customers in the US find the C350 to be quick enough and it also offers something that the competition doesn't (in their minds - which is realistically the case with customers and their favorite brand).


I understand that.

Still, I think it is a trivial matter that really isn't an issue at all. Most people on this board are speed fanatics, that's no secret. To them the C350 isn't a consideration because it is "slow" to them and it doesn't come with a manual transmission. For the people out there to whom the car is aimed at, the appeal and desire is there. The 0-60 time of the C350 is quick and quick enough for these people. There are other qualities in the car that they find far more appealing.

There were rumors of a C400 Biturbo which was to be a twin-turbocharged 3.5 V6 with 400-horsepower when the C-Class came out but it seems Mercedes dropped the idea. This would really be the car that would compete with the S4 and 335i if it were made. I personally don't view the C350 as a competitor to either the 335i or S4. The C350 competes more with the 330i and A4 3.2 V6.



Oh come on. I've argued in favor of non-Mercedes' cars in similar situations many times.

Wims, I'd wager that the typical Mercedes customer, the one they sell in volume to, doesn't as much money as you think he does.  I don't know how it is in Europe, but a lot of people here lease, and the difference between $500 a month and $1000 a month is huge (AMGs have lower residual and therefore higher lease costs compared to a similar model of similar price, i.e. a $60,000 C63 AMG would cost more per month than a 60K non-AMG E class). 

Comfort is subjective, that is true.  I find firmer cars more comfortable and get seasick in softies like the Camry.  Remember though, in the US, we don't have as many trim and engine choices as you do, and even in base form, the C class is much sportier than it was before. 

Also remember that we don't get the 330i here; just the 328i, which competes on price with the C300.  The S4, despite the new letter, has moved sort of downmarket since they started selling the RS4 here, putting it more towards the standard range than the range-topper it once was.  But the fact is that the C350, in name, position, power, and price does compete with the 335i and S4.  Just because it doesn't do it very well doesn't excuse it. 

I mean, for me, it's plenty fast enough, but that doesn't mean that people who buy these cars will feel that way, even if it really is.  Even at the lower range, these cars are about bragging. 

[cawimmer430]

Wims, I'd wager that the typical Mercedes customer, the one they sell in volume to, doesn't as much money as you think he does.  I don't know how it is in Europe, but a lot of people here lease, and the difference between $500 a month and $1000 a month is huge (AMGs have lower residual and therefore higher lease costs compared to a similar model of similar price, i.e. a $60,000 C63 AMG would cost more per month than a 60K non-AMG E class).

Well, I can see your point. There is a small core market though composed of people that have the money to easily afford either a C350 or C63 AMG or even something far more expensive. For these people money is truly no object.

I have to ask this: if someone is short on cash then why lease an expensive car like a Mercedes in the first place? If money troubles are there, they should have drive something more affordable with cheaper running costs.

Also remember that we don't get the 330i here; just the 328i, which competes on price with the C300.  The S4, despite the new letter, has moved sort of downmarket since they started selling the RS4 here, putting it more towards the standard range than the range-topper it once was.  But the fact is that the C350, in name, position, power, and price does compete with the 335i and S4.  Just because it doesn't do it very well doesn't excuse it.

They might "compete" in terms of price, but that's it. I honestly can't see how a C350 can seriously compete with an S4 and a 335i. Both the S4 and 335i are fully focused on sport while this isn't the case with the C350 at all, even in sport trim. It's sporty and you can push it hard and it will generally cope nicely, but it certainly isn't on the same sporting level as the S4, 335i, G37 etc.

And this brings me back to my previous arguments. That the people who are interested in the C-Class or C350 generally know this (I hope) and thus aren't that interested in sport. To them the performance and handling qualities of the C350 are adequate but they probably bought the car because of other reasons.

[Tave]

I have to ask this: if someone is short on cash then why lease an expensive car like a Mercedes in the first place? If money troubles are there, they should have drive something more affordable with cheaper running costs.

Base MSRP on a C350 is 40K. You can buy an optioned Silverado, Explorer, or an Acura TL for that kind of money.

Do you understand how someone might be able to afford a TL but not a C63 AMG?

[Vinsanity]

And this brings me back to my previous arguments. That the people who are interested in the C-Class or C350 generally know this (I hope) and thus aren't that interested in sport. To them the performance and handling qualities of the C350 are adequate but they probably bought the car because of other reasons.

What would those other reasons be?

[Raza]

Well, I can see your point. There is a small core market though composed of people that have the money to easily afford either a C350 or C63 AMG or even something far more expensive. For these people money is truly no object.

I have to ask this: if someone is short on cash then why lease an expensive car like a Mercedes in the first place? If money troubles are there, they should have drive something more affordable with cheaper running costs.

Because they want that little thing tacked on to the hood.
 

They might "compete" in terms of price, but that's it. I honestly can't see how a C350 can seriously compete with an S4 and a 335i. Both the S4 and 335i are fully focused on sport while this isn't the case with the C350 at all, even in sport trim. It's sporty and you can push it hard and it will generally cope nicely, but it certainly isn't on the same sporting level as the S4, 335i, G37 etc.

And this brings me back to my previous arguments. That the people who are interested in the C-Class or C350 generally know this (I hope) and thus aren't that interested in sport. To them the performance and handling qualities of the C350 are adequate but they probably bought the car because of other reasons.

But they continually make the C class sportier and sportier.  So clearly they are interested in sport. 

[cawimmer430]

Base MSRP on a C350 is 40K. You can buy an optioned Silverado, Explorer, or an Acura TL for that kind of money.

Do you understand how someone might be able to afford a TL but not a C63 AMG?

Yeah, I get it. But I am certain there are a ton of filthy rich Mercedes shoppers in the US that could easily afford an S65 AMG but for some reason buy a C300/C350. We have buyer demographics like this in Europe so I am pretty sure they exist in the US too. It is these people that, although very wealthy, buy a car that suits their needs.

What would those other reasons be?

HISTORY AND HERITAGE, BABY! 




I've mentioned these reasons before. They care about something else other than pure performance. Comfort, luxury, safety, the badge, the design etc. Things like that.

[cawimmer430]

But they continually make the C class sportier and sportier.  So clearly they are interested in sport. 

I think it's actually more a changing of buyer demographics that has forced the sportier characteristics unto the C-Class. Cars like the W201 190-Series and W202 were still targeted at middle-aged to older buyers. Beginning with the W203 and now the W204 the market the car is aimed at has become increasingly younger in age and sport is a big issue to many of these people. Hence the reason why the W204 especially has become sportier (in sport trim). At least Mercedes offers buyers a choice: Elegance or Avantgarde (sport) trims which respectively focus on comfort and sport (although the sport model is still comfort-biased).

[Vinsanity]

I've mentioned these reasons before. They care about something else other than pure performance. Comfort, luxury, safety, the badge, the design etc. Things like that.

Sorry, I don't really see the C-class as the most compelling offering WRT comfort, luxury, and safety.

[cawimmer430]

Sorry, I don't really see the C-class as the most compelling offering WRT comfort, luxury, and safety.

You don't. Others do. End of the argument. 

[CALL_911]

You don't. Others do. End of the argument. 

Except it's not just him.

Most don't.

[cawimmer430]

Except it's not just him.

Most don't.

Is that a fact or your opinion?

Because the C-Class sales in the US have been very strong as far as I know. I don't even see why this is being turned into such a blood bath. If everyone liked the same thing it would be a very boring world. Not everyone cares about value or razor-sharp handling but they care about safety, comfort, PRESTIGE (badge) etc. for example and they feel that the C-Class does better than other cars in its class. Buyer opinions, expectations and desires vary.

[ifcar]

Is that a fact or your opinion?

Because the C-Class sales in the US have been very strong as far as I know. I don't even see why this is being turned into such a blood bath. If everyone liked the same thing it would be a very boring world. Not everyone cares about value or razor-sharp handling but they care about safety, comfort, PRESTIGE (badge) etc. for example and they feel that the C-Class does better than other cars in its class. Buyer opinions, expectations and desires vary.

People feel the Camry is the best midsize car and the Corolla is the best compact. Are they?

[cawimmer430]

People feel the Camry is the best midsize car and the Corolla is the best compact. Are they?

What do we know about the Camry? It's reliable. It's affordable. It's comfortable. To the non-caring / non-car-enthusiast masses that care about these aspects this is a very powerful buying argument. To them it is the best car that suits their needs. Similar arguments can also be put forth for the entry-level luxury class - and any car class.

Oh, and we know that the Camry V6 is soooooooooooooooooooo really fast too!  

[ifcar]

What do we know about the Camry? It's reliable. It's affordable. It's comfortable. To the non-caring / non-car-enthusiast masses that care about these aspects this is a very powerful buying argument. To them it is the best car that suits their needs. Similar arguments can also be put forth for the entry-level luxury class - and any car class.

Yes, that is the argument that people are putting forward in this thread: that people think it is the best car for their needs without doing any research because they like the badge.

That's fine for the company, but it doesn't say much about whether the car is actually any good.

[NomisR]

Is that a fact or your opinion?

Because the C-Class sales in the US have been very strong as far as I know. I don't even see why this is being turned into such a blood bath. If everyone liked the same thing it would be a very boring world. Not everyone cares about value or razor-sharp handling but they care about safety, comfort, PRESTIGE (badge) etc. for example and they feel that the C-Class does better than other cars in its class. Buyer opinions, expectations and desires vary.

Yeah, but at the same time, the same buyers would buy a Lexus over a Mercedes because you get more for your money and you get better quality.. sure you don't have the "heritage" but the "prestige" of the car is similiar and it has a perception of reliability which MB cars don't.. anymore...

[cawimmer430]

Yes, that is the argument that people are putting forward in this thread: that people think it is the best car for their needs without doing any research because they like the badge.

That's fine for the company, but it doesn't say much about whether the car is actually any good.

There are so many aspects which influence buying decisions. Some people actually like their W203 C-Classes or have had good experiences with them and thus feel an upgrade to a W204 C-Class is the next best thing to do for example. Maybe someone was sick and tired of their BMW 3-Series or Lexus ES/IS. Maybe someone's neighbor bought a W204 C-Class and they're watering their lawn thinking, "Man that looks sharp! I'm gonna buy one too!"

Who knows. Who cares.

I never claimed the C-Class is the best car in its class. But it is definitely the car in its class that balances comfort, sport and luxury the best. Many reviews have stated this.

[ifcar]

There are so many aspects which influence buying decisions. Some people actually like their W203 C-Classes or have had good experiences with them and thus feel an upgrade to a W204 C-Class is the next best thing to do for example. Maybe someone was sick and tired of their BMW 3-Series or Lexus ES/IS. Maybe someone's neighbor bought a W204 C-Class and they're watering their lawn thinking, "Man that looks sharp! I'm gonna buy one too!"

Who knows. Who cares.

I never claimed the C-Class is the best car in its class. But it is definitely the car in its class that balances comfort, sport and luxury the best. Many reviews have stated this.

Many others have said otherwise. What makes the reviews you prefer accurate?

[cawimmer430]

Many others have said otherwise. What makes the reviews you prefer accurate?

Reviews are opinions and subjective like everything else. But when many reviews say the same thing about the C-Class then there has to be some truth to that. Don't you agree?

Many W204 owners over on Germancarzone also mentioned this aspect which they found appealing. The car does a great job of combining these ideals. It's not the sportiest car in its class but it sure does offer you an involving enough driving experience (in the Mercedes sense) while retaining the comfortable cruising qualities expected of a Mercedes.

Even in my personal experience with the W204, I found it to be a nice blend of comfort and sport (the sport models). The comfort-biased Elegance trim models handled well too, but felt more comfortable and less sporty than the sport trim (Avantgarde) models. The suspension was noticeably softer. Maybe you should review one for your site...

[CALL_911]

There are so many aspects which influence buying decisions. Some people actually like their W203 C-Classes or have had good experiences with them and thus feel an upgrade to a W204 C-Class is the next best thing to do for example. Maybe someone was sick and tired of their BMW 3-Series or Lexus ES/IS. Maybe someone's neighbor bought a W204 C-Class and they're watering their lawn thinking, "Man that looks sharp! I'm gonna buy one too!"

That's probably not the case.

Who knows. Who cares.

I never claimed the C-Class is the best car in its class. But it is definitely the car in its class that balances comfort, sport and luxury the best. Many reviews have stated this.
Haha.

[cawimmer430]

 

Seriously, sometimes I feel I am arguing with kids. 


Read some reviews that praise the balance the C-Class offers. And I am not talking about BMW and Driver magazine by the way. If it's not a BMW or Honda it sucks.

[NomisR]

Seriously, sometimes I feel I am arguing with kids. 


Read some reviews that praise the balance the C-Class offers. And I am not talking about BMW and Driver magazine by the way. If it's not a BMW or Honda it sucks.

Of all the Mercedes I've driven, the only one I remotely liked was the SLK... and even then, for the price you're paying.. the interior does not feel luxurious at all..

[cawimmer430]

Of all the Mercedes I've driven, the only one I remotely liked was the SLK... and even then, for the price you're paying.. the interior does not feel luxurious at all..

Hmmm...the interior is well-made (aka quality). That has to count for something, right? 

[CALL_911]

Seriously, sometimes I feel I am arguing with kids. 


Read some reviews that praise the balance the C-Class offers. And I am not talking about BMW and Driver magazine by the way. If it's not a BMW or Honda it sucks.

Well, considering the only thing that keeps you arguing in favor of the C-Class is its badge, which is in itself, rather childish, you should probably anticipate responses which you feel are childish.

You seem to be very bitter about the 3er's dominance over the C-Class. I've been in quite a few W204s (as a passenger), and I didn't find them any more comfortable than the E90s I've been in. If they're not much more comfortable, and they don't drive better, I don't see a point in buying one. They're good cars, as I've stated ad nauseum, but the competition offers better.

[CALL_911]

Hmmm...the interior is well-made (aka quality). That has to count for something, right? 

Lets use this argument in favor of the Lexus ES/IS, both of which have very HQ interiors, moreso than the C-Class, IMO.

That has to count for something, right?

[Cookie Monster]

Lavarius Jones with the smackdown.

[CALL_911]

Lavarius Jones with the smackdown.

LJ's a straight up beast.

[cawimmer430]

Well, considering the only thing that keeps you arguing in favor of the C-Class is its badge, which is in itself, rather childish, you should probably anticipate responses which you feel are childish.

The badge is one part that some people find appealing in the C-Class. But the car has other qualities too which nobody here seems to acknowledge.

You seem to be very bitter about the 3er's dominance over the C-Class. I've been in quite a few W204s (as a passenger), and I didn't find them any more comfortable than the E90s I've been in. If they're not much more comfortable, and they don't drive better, I don't see a point in buying one. They're good cars, as I've stated ad nauseum, but the competition offers better.

I am not bitter at all. The 3-Series has its own formula which appeals to certain buyers while the W204 C-Class has another. Beginning with the W203 the C-Class was optimized for a blend between comfort and sport to suit the new buyer demographics appearing in this market niche.

Comfort, as mentioned before, is a subjective issue. The 3er might be comfortable in its own way but I suspect the C-Class will overall have the edge in this regard. On a long journey the softer suspension and cushier seats of the C-Class will probably be more enjoyable than the sport-focused suspension and seats of the 3er. And as mentioned in the W202 argument the 3-Series in Germany and Europe comes standard with some of the most uncomfortable seats I have ever experienced (also found in our 118i). After 45 minutes to an hour in those seats in the 118i my back aches. Incidentally I've also experienced these same seats in a 320d a few months ago as a passenger. Even in the base W204 C-Class I drove, a C200 CDI Classic (trim), the seats were softer, THICKER and more comfortable - not to mention the suspension too.

Does the 3er in North America come standard with sport seats? Because those are far more comfortable than the regular seats. Several people I know with 3-Series have mentioned this to me. One, a girl, even had the standard seats in her 3er replaced with the sport seats because of their better seating and comfort qualities.