Toyota's at it again!

[FoMoJo]

Shouldn't we have a more rigorous driving test and driver's training rather than a simple, understand how to follow the laws and you get your license like we do today.. and even then, most people don't understand the laws.  So basically, if they can't follow something as simple as that.. why should they get to drive and endanger everyone else?

Yes.

Every day, I always wonder how people overturn their vehicles but apparently, they do since I hear at least one on the traffic report daily.  And I still can't figure it out.. I guess I'll have to see it happen before my eyes to find out.

I've seen that happen.  A couple of times it was because the driver was drunk.  Other times, it was, simply, they didn't know how to steer out of a skid or something so utterly stupid as to make one wonder if they'd fallen asleep.

I used to be an aggressive driver until I got caught up in the stupidity of others a couple of times.  Now, I'm strictly defensive.  You can never trust other drivers not to do something insanely stupid behind the wheel.

[TBR]

Reports, Gossip and media hype do not indicate design fault. Only data does; and we(I) have seen none.

Like I've previously said, data is logged by OBD-II ECUs. If there were data indicating a design fault(s) Toyota and various government agencies there would have already been swift (and public) action. Also bet that Toyota has spent millions $$$ investigating possible failure scenarios.

My judgment: 2% chance it's a design fault; and less than 1% chance it's floor mats.

Data from the NHTSA indicates that the brakes were used at full strength. And, yes, any vehicle with a throttle by wire system should for sure go into limp-home mode if full gas and full brakes are on for an substantial amount of time, that indicates that something is wrong. Whether other cars from other companies do that or not is immaterial because they should.

[TBR]

Also, this was a CHP officer, so you would certainly hope that he would have sense enough to put it in neutral, though that seems to not be the case.

[ifcar]

Data from the NHTSA indicates that the brakes were used at full strength. And, yes, any vehicle with a throttle by wire system should for sure go into limp-home mode if full gas and full brakes are on for an substantial amount of time, that indicates that something is wrong. Whether other cars from other companies do that or not is immaterial because they should.

Almost none do. Perhaps they all should, but notice that the topic of this thread is not "Everyone's at it again."

[TBR]

Almost none do. Perhaps they all should, but notice that the topic of this thread is not "Everyone's at it again."

Your point being?

[NomisR]

I've seen that happen.  A couple of times it was because the driver was drunk.  Other times, it was, simply, they didn't know how to steer out of a skid or something so utterly stupid as to make one wonder if they'd fallen asleep.

I used to be an aggressive driver until I got caught up in the stupidity of others a couple of times.  Now, I'm strictly defensive.  You can never trust other drivers not to do something insanely stupid behind the wheel.

Yeah, but a lot of those are in rush hour traffic. 

I've also seen someone drive straight into the water barrel though between a Freeway Interchange like they were unable to decide wether they should take the freeway on the left or right so they went down the middle instead.  It was really funny but also a total WTF moment.  And this happened in broad daylight so the chance of them being drunk isn't as great...

The stupidity of people amazes me sometimes...

I try to drive defensively too, but usually have to be more agressive in order to protect myself.  What I mean is, I have to be agressive to drive around the packs of cars to put myself in a safer situation rather than being stuck around a lot of idiots. 

[Byteme]

Reports, Gossip and media hype do not indicate design fault. Only data does; and we(I) have seen none.

Like I've previously said, data is logged by OBD-II ECUs. If there were data indicating a design fault(s) Toyota and various government agencies there would have already been swift (and public) action. Also bet that Toyota has spent millions $$$ investigating possible failure scenarios.

My judgment: 2% chance it's a design fault; and less than 1% chance it's floor mats.

There is undoubtably a problem with the floormats in these cars, when not installed properly.  It wouldn't take much additional effort to design a car with floormats that don't jam the gas pedal, even if installed incorrectly.

Read the following:  http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/toyota/document/NHTSA_Filing.pdf

I'll summarize.  A vehicle owner petitioned the NHTSA to investigate the cars because of an issue he had.  Toyota identified the cause of his problem as an improperly secured floormat, nothing more nothing less. the NHTSA said they had investigated the alledged probklems and had identified other cases where the vehicles accelerated do to improperly fitted floor mats.    They pointed out that in 2007 Toyota had a problem with all weather mats that the redesigned to make it more difficult to cause a problem even if improperly installed.

The NHTSA concluded they found no mechanical defects that would be the cause, other than floormats that might jam gthe gas pedal when improperly installed.  As such the MHTSA denyed the request for an investigation and stated they found no mechanical fault, and that the action (denial of petiton) does not mean that no safety defect exists, just that currently there is no evidence of one that would cause a further investigation to be undertaken.  

As I understand it Toyota took that petition denial and intreperted it to say the NHTSA concluded there was no mechanical fault.  That's not quite what the NHTSA said so the NHTSA took exception to Toyota's announcement.

Edit:  I'd tend to agree withthe NHTSA on this one. 

[S204STi]

Your point being?

Hint: it isn't just Toyota who has a problem if most automakers design the system the same way.  It also implies that more people than just Toyota should be having problems with this if there wasn't an obvious flaw, which in this case was the floor mats.

People are trying to make a federal case out of this when there isn't.

[S204STi]

As I understand it Toyota took that petition denial and intreperted it to say the NHTSA concluded there was no mechanical fault.  That's not quite what the NHTSA said so the NHTSA took exception to Toyota's announcement.

Thanks for clarifying the issue for us.

[GoCougs]

Data from the NHTSA indicates that the brakes were used at full strength. And, yes, any vehicle with a throttle by wire system should for sure go into limp-home mode if full gas and full brakes are on for an substantial amount of time, that indicates that something is wrong. Whether other cars from other companies do that or not is immaterial because they should.

Do you have a link to the data?

[FoMoJo]

That's quite a story http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/toyota/document/NHTSA_Filing.pdf

Driving home from work, I experienced a sudden uncontrollable surge in
acceleration causing my speed to increase from about 60 mph to 80+ mph.
Immediately I began to brake hard as I was rapidly approaching traffic just
ahead of me. Fortunately the inside left lane was unoccupied and I was able to
make an immediate lane change. Initially I depressed the brake pedal as hard as I
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could using both feet but only managed to slow the vehicle to 40-45 mph. With
my speed reduced, I alternated between pumping the accelerator pedal and
pulling up on it from the underside with my right foot as it became clear that the
throttle was stuck in an open position. The vehicle continued to speed back up to
over 65 mph with less pressure on the brake pedal.
With traffic just ahead of me, I moved over to the left shoulder next to the
center barrier and continued to try to release the open throttle. There were
clouds of smoke around the vehicle and the smell of burning materials from the
overheating brakes. After finally getting the vehicle slowed down to about 25-30
mph, I shifted into ?Neutral? and depressed the start/stop push button a number
of times hoping to stop the engine but nothing happened. Instead the RPMs
moved up into the redline range on the tachometer. I quickly shifted back into
?Drive?; the vehicle jolted and rapidly accelerated to 60+ mph.
As the brakes were fading quickly, I was certain that I would need to shift
back into ?Neutral? and let the engine blow up to stop the vehicle. Suddenly the
acceleration surge stopped and I was able to bring the vehicle to a stop about 1 ?
to 2 miles from where it had started. I quickly shifted into ?Park? and depressed
the start/stop push button to turn off the engine. The vehicle seemed to shutter as
I did so. Upon restarting the car, I drove cautiously to Lexus of Wayzata a short
distance away fully prepared to shift into ?Neutral? if the acceleration repeated.
The car remains there over 5 weeks later.

Not a, particularly helpful response...

The inspection of your vehicle revealed no evidence of any vehicle defects or
malfunction. The throttle assembly and accelerator pedal were operating as
designed, with no binding or sticking of any of the components. The brakes
showed signs of excessive wear which is consistent with what you described
happened to you.
The inspection also revealed that the floor mat was in a position where it
could interfere with the operation and travel of the accelerator pedal. When the
vehicle was taken in to the dealership, the floor mat retaining clips were not
properly secured which allowed the floor mat to move out of position. While we
understand that you feel the floor mat was not the problem, the evidence revealed
during our inspection showed otherwise.

[GoCougs]

Again, as to the whole floor mat issue: There have been hundreds of millions of cars produced in the US with floor mats and hasn't been a problem till now?

[FoMoJo]

Thanks for clarifying the issue for us.

You may have noticed I used a  emoticon on this topic.

It's not so much the problem but how Toyota respond to it.

[ifcar]

"After finally getting the vehicle slowed down to about 25-30
mph, I shifted into ?Neutral? and depressed the start/stop push button a number
of times hoping to stop the engine but nothing happened. Instead the RPMs
moved up into the redline range on the tachometer. I quickly shifted back into
?Drive?; the vehicle jolted and rapidly accelerated to 60+ mph."


He went into neutral with what he believed to be a stuck accelerator (eventually) and didn't expect the rpms to rise? That's exactly what he should have done, except he should have done it sooner and he shouldn't have gone back into D.

[GoCougs]

That's quite a story http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/toyota/document/NHTSA_Filing.pdf

After finally getting the vehicle slowed down to about 25-30
mph, I shifted into ?Neutral? and depressed the start/stop push button a number
of times hoping to stop the engine but nothing happened. Instead the RPMs
moved up into the redline range on the tachometer. I quickly shifted back into
?Drive?; the vehicle jolted and rapidly accelerated to 60+ mph.

To me the story doesn't make sense; the person had the wherewithal to accurately describe speeds, the overheating of brakes, etc., plus actually shift to neutral, but then when the problem still persisted shifted back into drive???

That story doesn't add up to me. The dealership's "evidence" was a nice way of saying they didn't buy the owner's story (I don't either).

[FoMoJo]

"After finally getting the vehicle slowed down to about 25-30
mph, I shifted into ?Neutral? and depressed the start/stop push button a number
of times hoping to stop the engine but nothing happened. Instead the RPMs
moved up into the redline range on the tachometer. I quickly shifted back into
?Drive?; the vehicle jolted and rapidly accelerated to 60+ mph."


He went into neutral with what he believed to be a stuck accelerator (eventually) and didn't expect the rpms to rise? That's exactly what he should have done, except he should have done it sooner and he shouldn't have gone back into D.

Perhaps, but...

"Instead the RPMs moved up into the redline range on the tachometer. I quickly shifted back into ?Drive?; the vehicle jolted and rapidly accelerated to 60+ mph.  As the brakes were fading quickly, I was certain that I would need to shift
back into ?Neutral? and let the engine blow up to stop the vehicle. Suddenly the acceleration surge stopped and I was able to bring the vehicle to a stop about 1 ? to 2 miles from where it had started."

...if you were sitting in a car that you thought might blow up and wouldn't turn off, no telling how you might react.  Some might jump out and run and let the thing do what it may.

[Eye of the Tiger]

To me the story doesn't make sense; the person had the wherewithal to accurately describe speeds, the overheating of brakes, etc., plus actually shift to neutral, but then when the problem still persisted shifted back into drive???

That story doesn't add up to me. The dealership's "evidence" was a nice way of saying they didn't buy the owner's story (which I don't either).

People think redline=instant motor explosion.

[FoMoJo]

People think redline=instant motor explosion.

When you suspect that the electronics may have gone haywire, redline becomes arbitrary.

[GoCougs]

People think redline=instant motor explosion.

Yeah, you're probably right. However, though not data, the recount of the story in first person tells me this person has a decent amount of automotive knowledge; enough to know any new car today has a rev limiter. Either way, I would think that even the automotively ignorant would think that a blown engine is better than a runaway vehicle.

We also have to wonder why the dealership had the car for five weeks just for a diagnosis? My hunch is that due to the rash of bad PR Lexus corporate sent out its mega technical team to investigate (and found nothing wrong). The dealer's floor mat excuse was the only card it had to play, other than flat-out telling the owner that he was a liar.

[VTEC_Inside]

Now, do you really believe that everyone with a drivers license can safely operate a car?

Quite the contrary and this is why things like this happen.

My point was that you can't just keep slapping yellow stickers and safety features on things. People are gonna hurt themselves or do stupid things regardless.

BUT, you can try to educate all new drivers better and subject them to real life scenarios in a safe environment prior to handing them their card.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Quite the contrary and this is why things like this happen.

My point was that you can't just keep slapping yellow stickers and safety features on things. People are gonna hurt themselves or do stupid things regardless.

BUT, you can try to educate all new drivers better and subject them to real life scenarios in a safe environment prior to handing them their card.

Bullshit, asshole. Driving is a right, and should not be subject to any actual training or skill tests.

[Byteme]

Again, as to the whole floor mat issue: There have been hundreds of millions of cars produced in the US with floor mats and hasn't been a problem till now?

I can state for a fact I had one jam the gas pedal on a car I owned in the 80's before the gov required an anchor point for the driver's mat.  That event caused me to put a snap on the mat and the floor so I could snap it in place and not have is lsid all over creation.

It happens.

[Byteme]

To me the story doesn't make sense; the person had the wherewithal to accurately describe speeds, the overheating of brakes, etc., plus actually shift to neutral, but then when the problem still persisted shifted back into drive???

That story doesn't add up to me. The dealership's "evidence" was a nice way of saying they didn't buy the owner's story (I don't either).

I've no doubt it happened.  Its their way of saying the cause was an improperly installed floormat.

[GoCougs]

I can state for a fact I had one jam the gas pedal on a car I owned in the 80's before the gov required an anchor point for the driver's mat.  That event caused me to but a snap on the mat and the floor so I could snap it in place and not have is lsid all over creation.

It happens.

So only now it's a major problem?

[VTEC_Inside]

Bullshit, asshole. Driving is a right, and should not be subject to any actual training or skill tests.

Swifts are exempt from a license requirement right? Its over 50cc you need one isn't it?

[Byteme]

Yeah, you're probably right. However, though not data, the recount of the story in first person tells me this person has a decent amount of automotive knowledge; enough to know any new car today has a rev limiter. Either way, I would think that even the automotively ignorant would think that a blown engine is better than a runaway vehicle.

We also have to wonder why the dealership had the car for five weeks just for a diagnosis? My hunch is that due to the rash of bad PR Lexus corporate sent out its mega technical team to investigate (and found nothing wrong). The dealer's floor mat excuse was the only card it had to play, other than flat-out telling the owner that he was a liar.

Read the NHTSA petition denial.  Read the evidence. The floor mats are a problem IF INSTALLED INCORRECTLY.  THe dealer played the right card, they told what is likely the truth regarding the cause of the problem.

[FoMoJo]

Quite the contrary and this is why things like this happen.

My point was that you can't just keep slapping yellow stickers and safety features on things. People are gonna hurt themselves or do stupid things regardless.

BUT, you can try to educate all new drivers better and subject them to real life scenarios in a safe environment prior to handing them their card.

It's true that drivers should be better educated about their vehicles and should prove their skill in dealing with more extreme situations.  However, it seems that drivers are becoming more detached from their vehicles due to devices which try to compensate for their inadequacies.  That is fine at a certain level but it is a disaster waiting to happen when these devices fail.  In the example given, the guy tried to shut the engine down by pushing the 'start' button.  It didn't work.  When this type of situation occurs, people can quickly lose faith in the technology and panic.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Swifts are exempt from a license requirement right? Its over 50cc you need one isn't it?

To start with, all drivers should be given only a Swift license until they can pass more stringent exams to operate larger, more powerful vehicles.

[2o6]

Yeah, you're probably right. However, though not data, the recount of the story in first person tells me this person has a decent amount of automotive knowledge; enough to know any new car today has a rev limiter. Either way, I would think that even the automotively ignorant would think that a blown engine is better than a runaway vehicle.

We also have to wonder why the dealership had the car for five weeks just for a diagnosis? My hunch is that due to the rash of bad PR Lexus corporate sent out its mega technical team to investigate (and found nothing wrong). The dealer's floor mat excuse was the only card it had to play, other than flat-out telling the owner that he was a liar.

Pretty much all cars have a fuel shutoff. When they are on the rev limiter for XXX seconds, it automatically cuts fuel.



And why did the guy shift back into drive? How stupid.

[Byteme]

So only now it's a major problem?

Beats me.  I may have been the only owner of an 84 camaro with floor mats I had to chase all over the car.  What ever has happened in the past doesn't mean much regarding this particular issue.  It's pretty obvious that IMPROPERLY INSTALLED floor mats are causing a problem.  

Why doesn't this happen to Hondas, Mazda's, Fords, Chevys?  Beats me.  Maybe they took into account that a mat might work itself loose and jam the pedal and designed accordingly. Maybe they designed aftermarket weather mats to not jam the gas pedal, even if installed incorrectly.  Who knows.  All I know is there are a number of documented cases of it being a problem for Toyota.