Toyota's at it again!

[FoMoJo]

It harkens back to the infamous 'sludge' episode of a few years ago..."Nothing wrong with the car; it's the customers fault" .

U.S. criticizes Toyota for 'misleading' public in recall

The government sharply criticized Toyota Motor Corp. Wednesday for its "inaccurate and misleading" suggestion that sudden acceleration in some vehicles bound for recall may be due only to improperly fitting floor mats.

The National Highway Transportation Safety Administration's criticism of Toyota's statement is the latest hit to the automaker's reputation from what will be the largest safety recall in its history: 3.8 million vehicles.

NHTSA said Toyota inaccurately suggested in a press release this week that the agency had concluded "that no defect exists in vehicles in which the driver's floor mat is compatible with the vehicle and properly secured," the agency said in a statement.

[ifcar]

The correct conclusion is that no one knows to just put a car in neutral if you can't explain why it's moving forward, making every one of these alleged issues the driver's own fault -- if they hadn't just been pushing on the gas to begin with either without knowing or refusing to admit to it.

Such a ridiculous "issue."

[FoMoJo]

I don't have a problem with the "issue".  Every manufacturer makes mistakes.  Toyota just doesn't want to admit it.  With their "sludge" incident, they quietly made changes to the cylinder heads to enhance oil flow but still insisted that there was nothing wrong with the engine.

This, of course, is similar to the Audi problem back in the 80s; which was just inept drivers pressing on the gas pedal rather than the brake.  All Toyota needs now is for 60 Minutes to do a special on it.

[ifcar]

I don't have a problem with the "issue".  Every manufacturer makes mistakes.  Toyota just doesn't want to admit it.  With their "sludge" incident, they quietly made changes to the cylinder heads to enhance oil flow but still insisted that there was nothing wrong with the engine.

This, of course, is similar to the Audi problem back in the 80s; which was just inept drivers pressing on the gas pedal rather than the brake.  All Toyota needs now is for 60 Minutes to do a special on it.

Just because they made a change doesn't mean there was necessarily a defect before. I'm sure Toyota's explanation would be further idiot-proofing, and who's to say if that's true or not?

[FoMoJo]

Just because they made a change doesn't mean there was necessarily a defect before. I'm sure Toyota's explanation would be further idiot-proofing, and who's to say if that's true or not?

Cars need to be idiot-proof; don't you agree?  Other than a handful of enthusiasts, most drivers have no notion of how to properly maintain a vehicle or what to do when something goes wrong.  Toyota promotes reliability in its marketing yet, when there's a problem, they try to deflect it rather than addressing it as a problem.  This statement...

NHTSA said Toyota inaccurately suggested in a press release this week that the agency had concluded "that no defect exists in vehicles in which the driver's floor mat is compatible with the vehicle and properly secured," the agency said in a statement.

...says a lot about their MO.  They respond more like a political entity than an auto manufacturer.  I have nothing against their vehicles; just their attitude.

[r0tor]

so great... ever manufacturer will have yet another ugly ass warning lable in their interior explaining to them how ignorant most people are

[GoCougs]

Yep - I'm seeing shades of the Audi 5000 debacle of the '80s. Just as with that issue, no one, anywhere, ever provided a shred of evidence (at least that I've heard of).  Then the publicity snowballed as scammers and morons leveraged the story for their own ends for accidents they themselves caused. I think this is pretty much the same issue.

There are profoundly insane measures to prevent a modern throttle from opening by itself and then sticking, plus an OBD-II logs its errors - for example, an error occurs when there is a mismatch between throttle position and gas pedal position and the car is shut down. This event would be easily uploaded by Toyota or any entity investigating these crashes.

IMO Toyota's floor mat recall was a PR move as IMO their exhaustive study showed that was the only possible way for the sticking throttle scenario to occur; it is virtually impossible for it to happen due to a software or hardware glitch, and if it does happen, the car shuts down.

I'm not so arrogant as to 100% dismiss it, but until someone provides hard, physical evidence, I'm siding with Toyota. Plus Toyota has an extreme interest in not killing its customers or the bad PR that would come of it, so to allege Toyota is covering something up I think is an extreme stretch.

[r0tor]

^sort of like morons traveling at high speeds with overloaded Explorers on underinflated Firestone tires???

[FoMoJo]

Yep - I'm seeing shades of the Audi 5000 debacle of the '80s. Just as with that issue, no one, anywhere, ever provided a shred of evidence.  I'm not so arrogant as to 100% dismiss it, but until someone provides hard, physical evidence, I'm siding with Toyota.

There are profoundly insane measures to prevent a modern throttle from opening by itself and then sticking, plus an OBD-II logs its errors - for example, an error occurs when there is a mismatch between throttle position and gas pedal position.

Just as ifcar notes, people know how turn off cars and put them into park/neutral. Just as with the Audi 5000 issue, the publicity snowballed as scammers and morons leveraged the story for their own ends for accidents they themselves caused. I think this is pretty much the same issue.
 

I agree in general; except that many people don't "know how turn off cars and put them into park/neutral" when an unexpected situation suddenly appears.  Many would simple stand on the brake resulting in a racing engine trying to overpower the brakes and some soccer mom shitting herself in the driver's seat, similarly, as those in an Audi 5000 pressing the accelerator to the floor thinking that it was the brake.  No wonder so many old farts drove through the back of their garage.

[FoMoJo]

^sort of like morons traveling at high speeds with overloaded Explorers on underinflated Firestone tires???

Exactly!

[GoCougs]

I agree in general; except that many people don't "know how turn off cars and put them into park/neutral" when an unexpected situation suddenly appears.  Many would simple stand on the brake resulting in a racing engine trying to overpower the brakes and some soccer mom shitting herself in the driver's seat, similarly, as those in an Audi 5000 pressing the accelerator to the floor thinking that it was the brake.  No wonder so many old farts drove through the back of their garage.

I think it depends; if the situation takes time to unfold (i.e., a stuck throttle on the freeway) I think the vast majority of people would figure it out.

[FoMoJo]

I think it depends; if the situation takes time to unfold (i.e., a stuck throttle on the freeway) I think the vast majority of people would figure it out.

Quite possibly.  But it only takes a handful to go flying into oncoming traffic at speed in order to crush the manufacturers reputation.

[Submariner]

so great... ever manufacturer will have yet another ugly ass warning lable in their interior explaining to them how ignorant most people are

WARNING!

GAS PEDAL CAUSES FORWARD MOTION

USE WITH EXTREME CAUTION

[the Teuton]

We can avoid this problem by having everyone actively engage their cars. I suggest making all new cars manual.

[FoMoJo]

WARNING!

GAS PEDAL CAUSES FORWARD MOTION

USE WITH EXTREME CAUTION

...or

FLOORMATS MAY ATTEMPT TO KILL YOU!

[VTEC_Inside]

Cars need to be idiot-proof; don't you agree?  Other than a handful of enthusiasts, most drivers have no notion of how to properly maintain a vehicle or what to do when something goes wrong.

That's why a drivers license is required to operate one. If you don't know how to operate a motor vehicle, you don't get your license.

That's the way it should be done.

If you go down the road of idiot proofing we'll all be rolling around inside over sized bouncy balls eventually.

[FoMoJo]

We can avoid this problem by having everyone actively engage their cars. I suggest making all new cars manual.

It may not help.  I give you this example.

After spending some of the most harrowing hours of my life in an empty parking lot teaching my (new) wife how to drive a manual -- engaging the clutch without stalling, without the car wildly bucking, without driving into a lamp post -- I thought she understood the fundamentals so, each day, off she went to work and arrived back safely.  Great, I thought, until one day I was a passenger as she drove.  She engaged the clutch with some skill and off we went; but I noticed she let the engine rev quite high and didn't shift.  Not to distract her too much, I quietly suggested "You can shift now".  She looked over at me and said "Why?"  Needless to say, I was flabbergasted, at a loss for words. 

[FoMoJo]

That's why a drivers license is required to operate one. If you don't know how to operate a motor vehicle, you don't get your license.

Now, do you really believe that everyone with a drivers license can safely operate a car?

That's the way it should be done.

No argument there.  Too bad it doesn't work that way.

If you go down the road of idiot proofing we'll all be rolling around inside over sized bouncy balls eventually.

... and that's exactly where we're heading.  At some point, everyone will be a passenger and the car will drive itself.

[GoCougs]

Quite possibly.  But it only takes a handful to go flying into oncoming traffic at speed in order to crush the manufacturers reputation.

True, but only if it's found to be the manufacturer's fault.

[FoMoJo]

True, but only if it's found to be the manufacturer's fault.

Not necessarily; as was the case with Audi.

[ifcar]

WARNING!

GAS PEDAL CAUSES FORWARD MOTION

USE WITH EXTREME CAUTION

[TBR]

The car that started all this did not turn off or reduce power when full force was on both the brake and the gas. That indicates a design fault.

[ifcar]

The car that started all this did not turn off or reduce power when full force was on both the brake and the gas. That indicates a design fault.

Not at all. There are some cars that are designed to do that, but it's rare. It wasn't that these cars had that system and it failed.

[Morris Minor]

The issue is now beyond questions of logic, driver stupidity, or whether Toyota's statement was right or wrong. It's now Toyota vs. the combined majesty of the Federal Government & the media. This is a public relations issue. As such Toyota needs to remember the "masses are asses" mantra as it drops its pants, bends over and does whatever it is told.

[2o6]

I don't think it was a mistake.



It was revealed that the dealer had put in the wrong floor mats (ones from an RX) in the ES that rolled over.

[FoMoJo]

I don't think it was a mistake.



It was revealed that the dealer had put in the wrong floor mats (ones from an RX) in the ES that rolled over.

Where was that revealed?  I never read of it.

[FoMoJo]

The issue is now beyond questions of logic, driver stupidity, or whether Toyota's statement was right or wrong. It's now Toyota vs. the combined majesty of the Federal Government & the media. This is a public relations issue. As such Toyota needs to remember the "masses are asses" mantra as it drops its pants, bends over and does whatever it is told.

Quite possibly.  However, someone at Toyota would have to kill themselves if that were to happen.

[GoCougs]

The car that started all this did not turn off or reduce power when full force was on both the brake and the gas. That indicates a design fault.

Reports, Gossip and media hype do not indicate design fault. Only data does; and we(I) have seen none.

Like I've previously said, data is logged by OBD-II ECUs. If there were data indicating a design fault(s) Toyota and various government agencies there would have already been swift (and public) action. Also bet that Toyota has spent millions $$$ investigating possible failure scenarios.

My judgment: 2% chance it's a design fault; and less than 1% chance it's floor mats.

[NomisR]

Now, do you really believe that everyone with a drivers license can safely operate a car?
No argument there.  Too bad it doesn't work that way.
... and that's exactly where we're heading.  At some point, everyone will be a passenger and the car will drive itself.

Shouldn't we have a more rigorous driving test and driver's training rather than a simple, understand how to follow the laws and you get your license like we do today.. and even then, most people don't understand the laws.  So basically, if they can't follow something as simple as that.. why should they get to drive and endanger everyone else?

Every day, I always wonder how people overturn their vehicles but apparently, they do since I hear at least one on the traffic report daily.  And I still can't figure it out.. I guess I'll have to see it happen before my eyes to find out.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Shouldn't we have a more rigorous driving test and driver's training rather than a simple, understand how to follow the laws and you get your license like we do today.. and even then, most people don't understand the laws.  So basically, if they can't follow something as simple as that.. why should they get to drive and endanger everyone else?

Every day, I always wonder how people overturn their vehicles but apparently, they do since I hear at least one on the traffic report daily.  And I still can't figure it out.. I guess I'll have to see it happen before my eyes to find out.

Maybe they tossed their sway bars because they thought they were building a rallycross racer, but then they never got around to it and just ended up using it as a daily driver with xtreme body roll and positive front camber under compression.