C&D 535i vs M37 vs A6 3.0T

Started by 565, July 04, 2010, 07:35:43 AM

AltinD

It's a hyperbole but it is still a very valid argument. A car designed for extensive high speed driving is to be build "slightly" differently then one that it is supposed to reach the maximum speed in just a few occasions and certainly not continuously driven fast. Why do you think even non-luxury European cars have usually lower drag coefficient then the others? Why do you think they show more attention to panel alignment and distances between them? Why BMW spend millions of EUR just to design their side mirrors? Why your Passat's door closes with the 'thumb' and the Camcorders doors seams like made of plywood?

Come on, it's common sense.

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Raza

No, I agree that they're of higher quality (I've owned four German cars in the past 8 years), but the speed limits here have at best a slight influence.
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Quote from: the Teuton on October 05, 2009, 03:53:18 PMIt's impossible to argue with Raza. He wins. Period. End of discussion.

AltinD


2016 KIA Sportage EX Plus, CRDI 2.0T diesel, 185 HP, AWD

TBR

Quote from: AltinD on July 06, 2010, 02:23:24 PM
It's a hyperbole but it is still a very valid argument. A car designed for extensive high speed driving is to be build "slightly" differently then one that it is supposed to reach the maximum speed in just a few occasions and certainly not continuously driven fast. Why do you think even non-luxury European cars have usually lower drag coefficient then the others? Why do you think they show more attention to panel alignment and distances between them? Why BMW spend millions of EUR just to design their side mirrors? Why your Passat's door closes with the 'thumb' and the Camcorders doors seams like made of plywood?

Come on, it's common sense.

Oppressive taxation and regulation.

nickdrinkwater

Quote from: AltinD on July 06, 2010, 02:23:24 PM
Why do you think even non-luxury European cars have usually lower drag coefficient then the others?

Do they?

sportyaccordy

Quote from: nickdrinkwater on July 06, 2010, 02:44:26 PM
Do they?
Not at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile_drag_coefficient#Typical_values_and_examples

Quote from: AltinD on July 06, 2010, 02:23:24 PM
It's a hyperbole but it is still a very valid argument. A car designed for extensive high speed driving is to be build "slightly" differently then one that it is supposed to reach the maximum speed in just a few occasions and certainly not continuously driven fast.
Differently != more expensive, necessarily. Sure, a car made for the Autobahn needs better tires and brakes than a car made for the I-95, but what else needs to be beefed up?

Quote from: AltinD on July 06, 2010, 02:23:24 PMWhy do you think even non-luxury European cars have usually lower drag coefficient then the others?
They don't.

Quote from: AltinD on July 06, 2010, 02:23:24 PMWhy do you think they show more attention to panel alignment and distances between them?
Proof? You mean to tell me a VW Polo has lower panel gap tolerances than a Toyota Echo?

Quote from: AltinD on July 06, 2010, 02:23:24 PMWhy BMW spend millions of EUR just to design their side mirrors?
You don't think non-Euro manufacturers spend big $$$$ on aerodynamic research? Look at the Prius and all the hybrid cars... they have much lower Cd's than even the many of the most expensive German luxury cars... you think that just came by luck?

Quote from: AltinD on July 06, 2010, 02:23:24 PMWhy your Passat's door closes with the 'thumb' and the Camcorders doors seams like made of plywood?

Come on, it's common sense.
No, it's called complete fabrication and blind nationalism. This post sounds like a press release the DPRK would issue on North Korea's auto industry (if it had one). If you are representative of the typical West European I can see why they have no problems charging incredible price premiums for History and HeritageTM

ifcar

Quote from: AltinD on July 06, 2010, 02:09:32 PM
First of all, that car is manufactured in another country and therefore by default will be more expensive when shipping charges and import taxes are added. Plus that specific car is not build as cheaply as those you mentioned and it is enginered for 155 MPH driving, not 108 ... I mean 65.

It is simply a more upscale car then the camcords and therefore it has to cost more.

Is that why a Mexican-built German car costs more than a Japanese-built Japanese car, because it has high shipping costs and import taxes? Of course. And how about a Japanese-built Japanese car also sold in Europe, if you insist that a car is only engineered to go as fast as the highest speed limit?

AltinD

Well, you enjoy you impeccably build yours, I'll enjoy mine.

2016 KIA Sportage EX Plus, CRDI 2.0T diesel, 185 HP, AWD

Jon?

Quote from: ifcar on July 06, 2010, 05:21:34 PM
Is that why a Mexican-built German car costs more than a Japanese-built Japanese car, because it has high shipping costs and import taxes? Of course. And how about a Japanese-built Japanese car also sold in Europe, if you insist that a car is only engineered to go as fast as the highest speed limit?

Those Mexican-built German cars come equipped con historia y herencia?.

Current Rides: 2011 VW Golf TDi, 2008 Pontiac Vibe

TBR

Quote from: AltinD on July 07, 2010, 11:35:44 AM
Well, you enjoy you impeccably build yours, I'll enjoy mine.

lol

AltinD


2016 KIA Sportage EX Plus, CRDI 2.0T diesel, 185 HP, AWD

mzziaz

Quote from: Jon? on July 07, 2010, 11:58:08 AM
Those Mexican-built German cars come equipped con historia y herencia?.

LOL.
Cuore Sportivo

TBR

Quote from: AltinD on July 08, 2010, 04:12:47 AM
x2

At you because ifcar rattled you so hard you couldn't even put together a coherent sentence.

Jon?

Quote from: TBR on July 08, 2010, 11:41:41 AM
At you because ifcar rattled you so hard you couldn't even put together a coherent sentence.

Not true.  He merely began typing in Esperanto.

Current Rides: 2011 VW Golf TDi, 2008 Pontiac Vibe

GoCougs

A Passat more Autobahn worthy than an Accord or the like? LOL. Come now - gotta put turn your H&HTM filter up a bit.

Colonel Cadillac

I would definitely bet the Passat is more autobahn worthy than an "Accord or the like."

AltinD

Quote from: GoCougs on July 08, 2010, 12:39:34 PM
A Passat more Autobahn worthy than an Accord or the like? LOL. Come now - gotta put turn your H&HTM filter up a bit.

Ok, now it really reached the bottom  :clap:

2016 KIA Sportage EX Plus, CRDI 2.0T diesel, 185 HP, AWD

GoCougs

Quote from: AltinD on July 08, 2010, 03:19:09 PM
Ok, now it really reached the bottom  :clap:

Uh, she hit rock bottom when it got all "plywood."

2o6

Quote from: GoCougs on July 08, 2010, 12:39:34 PM
A Passat more Autobahn worthy than an Accord or the like? LOL. Come now - gotta put turn your H&HTM filter up a bit.


Thats where autobahns come from. They probably know a thing or two about high-speed stability and steering feel.

MX793

Quote from: 2o6 on July 08, 2010, 06:31:03 PM

Thats where autobahns come from. They probably know a thing or two about high-speed stability and steering feel.

Yeah, I guess that's why the Audi TT had high speed stability problems...
Needs more Jiggawatts

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2o6

Quote from: MX793 on July 08, 2010, 07:41:09 PM
Yeah, I guess that's why the Audi TT had high speed stability problems...


Wasn't that due to aerodynamics?

Eye of the Tiger

2024 Mitsubishi Mirage ES

MX793

Quote from: 2o6 on July 08, 2010, 07:44:04 PM

Wasn't that due to aerodynamics?

Yes.  And designing a car to travel safely at high speed includes designing a car with stable aerodynamic characteristics.  It's every bit as important as a properly sorted suspension and steering system when it comes to stability.  If the tail or front end start to lift and get too light at speed due to aerodynamics, the car will be prone to instability such that the best suspension setup in the world can't help.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

Eye of the Tiger

Quote from: MX793 on July 08, 2010, 08:09:36 PM
Yes.  And designing a car to travel safely at high speed includes designing a car with stable aerodynamic characteristics.  It's every bit as important as a properly sorted suspension and steering system when it comes to stability.  If the tail or front end start to lift and get too light at speed due to aerodynamics, the car will be prone to instability such that the best suspension setup in the world can't help.

Audi fixed the problem by retuning tje suspension for maximum understeer, and adding a dinky little spoiler.
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Jon?

Quote from: 2o6 on July 08, 2010, 07:44:04 PM

Wasn't that due to aerodynamics?

Yup.  Apparently Audi didn't spend as many millions on their side-view mirrors as BMW. 

Current Rides: 2011 VW Golf TDi, 2008 Pontiac Vibe

the Teuton

The Germs typically have firm, often jarring suspensions, though. Drive over just a small speed bump slowly, and you can here the hmph sound from the gas struts. With a (similarly, but not quite as stiff) CTS, it's a lot smoother, less noticeable.

Edit: My experiences with this stuff come from relatively new BMWs.
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Quote from: CJ on April 06, 2010, 10:48:54 PM
I don't care about all that shit.  I'll be going to college to get an education at a cost to my parents.  I'm not going to fool around.
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She'll hate diesel passenger cars, all things Ford, and fiat currency.  They will masturbate to old interviews of Ayn Rand an youtube together.
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Colonel Cadillac

#86
My experiences with sport/un-sport suspension:

Depends on where I live, but I lack the sport suspension here and thank god I do because the roads are awful here. I actually quite like the suspension for what it has to deal with down here. I don't mind the floatiness when I'm cruising over awful road imperfections, however I bottomed out slightly over a fairly large one a week or so ago.

Up in Connecticut, I probably would prefer the sport suspension my friend has with his 3.2 auto.

Living here with an Audi (due to mostly pothole ridden streets) will most likely cost me thousands of extra dollars which I am fairly afraid of. I think I might buy a Corolla or something if shit gets too expensive with the Audi later on (I'm keeping it for a long time since I destroyed the equity when I crashed, it could go out of commission for expensive repairs when I'm poor). My warranty took care of an $1800 a/c fix last week, but I'm terrified of what will happen after 2012 (expiration) and I will undoubtably not be able to afford that.

sportyaccordy

A well sorted "sport" suspension shouldn't be a compromise. My Accord on Neuspeed Sport springs and Koni Yellow shocks had the best combo of handling and ride comfort I've ever felt. I find it strange that manufacturers haven't been able to replicate that ride yet.

And tuning a car for high speed driving, even a luxury car, is different than tuning a car for "mid speed" driving (~50-80 MPH). Shocks have to be stiffer because the same bump at 100 MPH has a lot more energy than the same bump at 70 MPH. However, in my experience, roads on which I feel comfortable doing 100+ don't have those large jarring bumps to begin with; and I imagine it being the same on a 200 MPH autobahn. Maybe it is an issue of stability, but again shocks don't have to be THAT stiff to handle well at 100 MPH. IDK

MrH

:lol:

:clap:  This is one of my favorite threads in awhile.
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GoCougs

Quote from: sportyaccordy on July 09, 2010, 05:02:00 AM
A well sorted "sport" suspension shouldn't be a compromise. My Accord on Neuspeed Sport springs and Koni Yellow shocks had the best combo of handling and ride comfort I've ever felt. I find it strange that manufacturers haven't been able to replicate that ride yet.

And tuning a car for high speed driving, even a luxury car, is different than tuning a car for "mid speed" driving (~50-80 MPH). Shocks have to be stiffer because the same bump at 100 MPH has a lot more energy than the same bump at 70 MPH. However, in my experience, roads on which I feel comfortable doing 100+ don't have those large jarring bumps to begin with; and I imagine it being the same on a 200 MPH autobahn. Maybe it is an issue of stability, but again shocks don't have to be THAT stiff to handle well at 100 MPH. IDK

Swapping out individual components will have an effect but I've always been skeptical as to the overall effectiveness. Suspension is a very complex dynamical system that takes some serious horsepower to model and to analyze; geometry (strut vs. U/L control arm vs. multi-link), spring rates (meaning, variable rate gradient), unsprung weight, component construction (stamped steel vs. forged aluminum), chassis and subframe stiffness, and probably a bunch of other stuff, all work in complex concert to give an effect.