C&D 535i vs M37 vs A6 3.0T

[565]

I haven't had a chance to check out this comparo yet.

I heard the finishing order was Audi, Infiniti, Bmw.  C&D is usually head over heels for BMW, so the new 5 series must have really screwed up to be last.

[cawimmer430]

More info here: http://f10.5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=402309


Apparently C&D didn't like the soft steering feel of the new 5er. BMW did make the new 5er softer to appeal to a broader crowd, but driving enthusiast need to order the dynamic package and will receive a sharper and more weighted steering and suspension setup in return.

[the Teuton]

...or BMW can offer hydraulic steering again...

Why should I have to pay extra to make a BMW feel like a BMW?

[cawimmer430]

Why should I have to pay extra to make a BMW feel like a BMW?

HISTORY AND HERITAGE!!!

[the Teuton]

HISTORY AND HERITAGE!!!

But BMW's H&H^TM says that a sports sedan ought to be sporty...

[ifcar]

I haven't had a chance to check out this comparo yet.

I heard the finishing order was Audi, Infiniti, Bmw.  C&D is usually head over heels for BMW, so the new 5 series must have really screwed up to be last.

They hated the last new 5-Series too...for a while. I think it placed 6th of 8 cars the first time they compared it.

[the Teuton]

They hated the last new 5-Series too...for a while. I think it placed 6th of 8 cars the first time they compared it.

Drive an E39, even the V8s with the recirculating ball steering...

That car was magic. The E60 is a great car, but it doesn't have that low-speed steering feel of the E39. You have to push it a little more to make it feel like less of a luxury sedan and more of a sports sedan.

[CALL_911]

They hated the last new 5-Series too...for a while. I think it placed 6th of 8 cars the first time they compared it.

Yeah, but IIRC, that was a power issue. They pitted a 530i (then with a 225 hp M54) in a V8 comparo. This is a different story.

This does make me sort of sad, however.

[dazzleman]

Drive an E39, even the V8s with the recirculating ball steering...

That car was magic. The E60 is a great car, but it doesn't have that low-speed steering feel of the E39. You have to push it a little more to make it feel like less of a luxury sedan and more of a sports sedan.

Very true.  Having owned both, I can attest to that.

[AltinD]

...or BMW can offer hydraulic steering again...

Why should I have to pay extra to make a BMW feel like a BMW?

For the same reason now you have to pay extra for a luxury SUV to go off-road. (Cayenne/Touareg/Q7 making the locking differencial a payable extra)

[TBR]

Hmm...I really like the look of the new 5-series, but it sounds like it's pretty much lost what made it special. It's kind of funny that when the Audi first came out it wasn't thought too highly of, but with this latest refresh, and the 3.0t, that has all changed.

[the Teuton]

Hmm...I really like the look of the new 5-series, but it sounds like it's pretty much lost what made it special. It's kind of funny that when the Audi first came out it wasn't thought too highly of, but with this latest refresh, and the 3.0t, that has all changed.

This is because Ferdinand Piech, while he doesn't run the show, still runs the show -- and he's pretty much a German Bob Lutz with a lot more influence.

[TBR]

This is because Ferdinand Piech, while he doesn't run the show, still runs the show -- and he's pretty much a German Bob Lutz with a lot more influence.

That theory pretty much falls apart when you consider he was in charge when this model A6 first came out too

[the Teuton]

That theory pretty much falls apart when you consider he was in charge when this model A6 first came out too

This goes 268 mph. It's not exactly an A6, but the point stands: Constant improvement will eventually yield perfection.

[Jon?]

They hated the last new 5-Series too...for a while. I think it placed 6th of 8 cars the first time they compared it.

They had to wait for the check to clear.

[MrH]

This goes 268 mph. It's not exactly an A6, but the point stands: Constant improvement will eventually yield perfection.

What does that have to do with the A6 again...?

[the Teuton]

What does that have to do with the A6 again...?

It was more of the point that BMW likes to eff things up, whereas VW/Audi has had a tendency towards refining its products to make them better and better. And had 1983 never happened, Audi would likely be a bigger lux manufacturer than BMW right now.

When you start messing with the aspects of your company that defined your company for so long (sporting pretensions, awesome steering and handling, etc.), it may not matter to the general consumer, but it'll begin catching up eventually with enthusiasts. And when "The Ultimate Driving Machine" begins to mean jack squat, that means you're starting to lose some 40 years of possibly the best brand equity in the industry next to Porsche.

[ifcar]

It was more of the point that BMW likes to eff things up, whereas VW/Audi has had a tendency towards refining its products to make them better and better. And had 1983 never happened, Audi would likely be a bigger lux manufacturer than BMW right now.

Is that why the new Jetta is going to have such great engines?

[Jon?]

Is that why the new Jetta is going to have such great engines?

No more i-5?

[ifcar]

No more i-5?

Sarcasm. We not only get the I5, we even get the return of the old NA 2.0.

[Jon?]

Sarcasm. We not only get the I5, we even get the return of the old NA 2.0.

From my '94 Golf?  Cool.  I was younger back then.  And had more hair.

[the Teuton]

Is that why the new Jetta is going to have such great engines?

Notice the words "has had a tendency..."

I didn't put those there by accident.

[ifcar]

Notice the words "has had a tendency..."

I didn't put those there by accident.

VW also seems to have a tendency to do the exact opposite.

[the Teuton]

VW also seems to have a tendency to do the exact opposite.

For most intents and purposes, the newer Jetta was a better car than the one it replaced if that's what you're getting at.

[ifcar]

For most intents and purposes, the newer Jetta was a better car than the one it replaced if that's what you're getting at.

That tends to be why cars are redesigned, yes. Nothing special on VW's part except for what it chose not to upgrade: a major component of the car that's been criticized since 2005.

[SVT666]

...or BMW can offer hydraulic steering again...

Why should I have to pay extra to make a BMW feel like a BMW?

That's my complaint regarding Jeep.  You have to pay extra to get a real 4x4 system.

[the Teuton]

That tends to be why cars are redesigned, yes. Nothing special on VW's part except for what it chose not to upgrade: a major component of the car that's been criticized since 2005.

Buy the 2.0T or the diesel engine then. According to Raza, the components that come with the turbo engine make the car very, very good. The 2.5 just sucks.

[2o6]

Buy the 2.0T or the diesel engine then. According to Raza, the components that come with the turbo engine make the car very, very good. The 2.5 just sucks.

Which are expensive and you can have a faster (better, even) car for the price.

[the Teuton]

Which are expensive and you can have a faster (better, even) car for the price.

Then the car has no problems (besides looking like it melted sometime between coming off the assembly line and reaching the showroom). It's the price...

Price not a factor, there aren't too many better cars in the class (supposing what Raza says is right about the steering, braking, and accelerator issues I've mentioned before), and the only car that comes to mind immediately as a better vehicle is the Mazda3, and that thing gets expensive quickly, too. The average transaction price for those things is right around $20k. So anything worth a damn won't be cheap to begin with in the class.

I don't think VW is too far off base with any of it. They have no idea how to do cost controlling, but otherwise, they make some decent vehicles. Heck, when the (B5, B5.5) Passat was still "cheap," it was largely considered the best car in its class. Price aside, it still might be somewhere up there.

And, as I said, the cars are still largely getting better from one gen to the next. It'll be interesting to see where the next Jetta goes, though.

[Colonel Cadillac]

The 2.0 liter VW engine has a ridiculous amount of lag, I estimate about a second for when I plant my foot and work is done for the engine.

I love the engine, I think it's phenomenal.

The 3.0T has got to be really good, I really want to drive it.

My family has had many turbo cars so I am fond of them. I love my NA 3.1 engine, had a great time with the 2.7T engine, and the M35x engine is fun, but way too loud and the M is not that great of a car. It drives particularly well, but it is literally falling apart and I would like for my dad to get the new A6 when it comes out.