C&D 535i vs M37 vs A6 3.0T

[AltinD]

It's a hyperbole but it is still a very valid argument. A car designed for extensive high speed driving is to be build "slightly" differently then one that it is supposed to reach the maximum speed in just a few occasions and certainly not continuously driven fast. Why do you think even non-luxury European cars have usually lower drag coefficient then the others? Why do you think they show more attention to panel alignment and distances between them? Why BMW spend millions of EUR just to design their side mirrors? Why your Passat's door closes with the 'thumb' and the Camcorders doors seams like made of plywood?

Come on, it's common sense.

[Raza]

No, I agree that they're of higher quality (I've owned four German cars in the past 8 years), but the speed limits here have at best a slight influence.

[AltinD]

Come on Raza ...

[TBR]

It's a hyperbole but it is still a very valid argument. A car designed for extensive high speed driving is to be build "slightly" differently then one that it is supposed to reach the maximum speed in just a few occasions and certainly not continuously driven fast. Why do you think even non-luxury European cars have usually lower drag coefficient then the others? Why do you think they show more attention to panel alignment and distances between them? Why BMW spend millions of EUR just to design their side mirrors? Why your Passat's door closes with the 'thumb' and the Camcorders doors seams like made of plywood?

Come on, it's common sense.

Oppressive taxation and regulation.

[nickdrinkwater]

Why do you think even non-luxury European cars have usually lower drag coefficient then the others?

Do they?

[sportyaccordy]

Do they?

Not at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile_drag_coefficient#Typical_values_and_examples

It's a hyperbole but it is still a very valid argument. A car designed for extensive high speed driving is to be build "slightly" differently then one that it is supposed to reach the maximum speed in just a few occasions and certainly not continuously driven fast.

Differently != more expensive, necessarily. Sure, a car made for the Autobahn needs better tires and brakes than a car made for the I-95, but what else needs to be beefed up?

Why do you think even non-luxury European cars have usually lower drag coefficient then the others?

They don't.

Why do you think they show more attention to panel alignment and distances between them?

Proof? You mean to tell me a VW Polo has lower panel gap tolerances than a Toyota Echo?

Why BMW spend millions of EUR just to design their side mirrors?

You don't think non-Euro manufacturers spend big $$$$ on aerodynamic research? Look at the Prius and all the hybrid cars... they have much lower Cd's than even the many of the most expensive German luxury cars... you think that just came by luck?

Why your Passat's door closes with the 'thumb' and the Camcorders doors seams like made of plywood?

Come on, it's common sense.

No, it's called complete fabrication and blind nationalism. This post sounds like a press release the DPRK would issue on North Korea's auto industry (if it had one). If you are representative of the typical West European I can see why they have no problems charging incredible price premiums for History and Heritage^TM

[ifcar]

First of all, that car is manufactured in another country and therefore by default will be more expensive when shipping charges and import taxes are added. Plus that specific car is not build as cheaply as those you mentioned and it is enginered for 155 MPH driving, not 108 ... I mean 65.

It is simply a more upscale car then the camcords and therefore it has to cost more.

Is that why a Mexican-built German car costs more than a Japanese-built Japanese car, because it has high shipping costs and import taxes? Of course. And how about a Japanese-built Japanese car also sold in Europe, if you insist that a car is only engineered to go as fast as the highest speed limit?

[AltinD]

Well, you enjoy you impeccably build yours, I'll enjoy mine.

[Jon?]

Is that why a Mexican-built German car costs more than a Japanese-built Japanese car, because it has high shipping costs and import taxes? Of course. And how about a Japanese-built Japanese car also sold in Europe, if you insist that a car is only engineered to go as fast as the highest speed limit?

Those Mexican-built German cars come equipped con historia y herencia?.

[TBR]

Well, you enjoy you impeccably build yours, I'll enjoy mine.

lol

[AltinD]

x2

[mzziaz]

Those Mexican-built German cars come equipped con historia y herencia?.

LOL.

[TBR]

x2

At you because ifcar rattled you so hard you couldn't even put together a coherent sentence.

[Jon?]

At you because ifcar rattled you so hard you couldn't even put together a coherent sentence.

Not true.  He merely began typing in Esperanto.

[GoCougs]

A Passat more Autobahn worthy than an Accord or the like? LOL. Come now - gotta put turn your H&H^TM filter up a bit.

[Colonel Cadillac]

I would definitely bet the Passat is more autobahn worthy than an "Accord or the like."

[AltinD]

A Passat more Autobahn worthy than an Accord or the like? LOL. Come now - gotta put turn your H&H^TM filter up a bit.

Ok, now it really reached the bottom 

[GoCougs]

Ok, now it really reached the bottom 

Uh, she hit rock bottom when it got all "plywood."

[2o6]

A Passat more Autobahn worthy than an Accord or the like? LOL. Come now - gotta put turn your H&H^TM filter up a bit.

Thats where autobahns come from. They probably know a thing or two about high-speed stability and steering feel.

[MX793]

Thats where autobahns come from. They probably know a thing or two about high-speed stability and steering feel.

Yeah, I guess that's why the Audi TT had high speed stability problems...

[2o6]

Yeah, I guess that's why the Audi TT had high speed stability problems...

Wasn't that due to aerodynamics?

[Eye of the Tiger]

Wasn't that due to aerodynamics?

No, just ignorant drivers.

[MX793]

Wasn't that due to aerodynamics?

Yes.  And designing a car to travel safely at high speed includes designing a car with stable aerodynamic characteristics.  It's every bit as important as a properly sorted suspension and steering system when it comes to stability.  If the tail or front end start to lift and get too light at speed due to aerodynamics, the car will be prone to instability such that the best suspension setup in the world can't help.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Yes.  And designing a car to travel safely at high speed includes designing a car with stable aerodynamic characteristics.  It's every bit as important as a properly sorted suspension and steering system when it comes to stability.  If the tail or front end start to lift and get too light at speed due to aerodynamics, the car will be prone to instability such that the best suspension setup in the world can't help.

Audi fixed the problem by retuning tje suspension for maximum understeer, and adding a dinky little spoiler.

[Jon?]

Wasn't that due to aerodynamics?

Yup.  Apparently Audi didn't spend as many millions on their side-view mirrors as BMW. 

[the Teuton]

The Germs typically have firm, often jarring suspensions, though. Drive over just a small speed bump slowly, and you can here the hmph sound from the gas struts. With a (similarly, but not quite as stiff) CTS, it's a lot smoother, less noticeable.

Edit: My experiences with this stuff come from relatively new BMWs.

[Colonel Cadillac]

My experiences with sport/un-sport suspension:

Depends on where I live, but I lack the sport suspension here and thank god I do because the roads are awful here. I actually quite like the suspension for what it has to deal with down here. I don't mind the floatiness when I'm cruising over awful road imperfections, however I bottomed out slightly over a fairly large one a week or so ago.

Up in Connecticut, I probably would prefer the sport suspension my friend has with his 3.2 auto.

Living here with an Audi (due to mostly pothole ridden streets) will most likely cost me thousands of extra dollars which I am fairly afraid of. I think I might buy a Corolla or something if shit gets too expensive with the Audi later on (I'm keeping it for a long time since I destroyed the equity when I crashed, it could go out of commission for expensive repairs when I'm poor). My warranty took care of an $1800 a/c fix last week, but I'm terrified of what will happen after 2012 (expiration) and I will undoubtably not be able to afford that.

[sportyaccordy]

A well sorted "sport" suspension shouldn't be a compromise. My Accord on Neuspeed Sport springs and Koni Yellow shocks had the best combo of handling and ride comfort I've ever felt. I find it strange that manufacturers haven't been able to replicate that ride yet.

And tuning a car for high speed driving, even a luxury car, is different than tuning a car for "mid speed" driving (~50-80 MPH). Shocks have to be stiffer because the same bump at 100 MPH has a lot more energy than the same bump at 70 MPH. However, in my experience, roads on which I feel comfortable doing 100+ don't have those large jarring bumps to begin with; and I imagine it being the same on a 200 MPH autobahn. Maybe it is an issue of stability, but again shocks don't have to be THAT stiff to handle well at 100 MPH. IDK

[MrH]

  This is one of my favorite threads in awhile.

[GoCougs]

A well sorted "sport" suspension shouldn't be a compromise. My Accord on Neuspeed Sport springs and Koni Yellow shocks had the best combo of handling and ride comfort I've ever felt. I find it strange that manufacturers haven't been able to replicate that ride yet.

And tuning a car for high speed driving, even a luxury car, is different than tuning a car for "mid speed" driving (~50-80 MPH). Shocks have to be stiffer because the same bump at 100 MPH has a lot more energy than the same bump at 70 MPH. However, in my experience, roads on which I feel comfortable doing 100+ don't have those large jarring bumps to begin with; and I imagine it being the same on a 200 MPH autobahn. Maybe it is an issue of stability, but again shocks don't have to be THAT stiff to handle well at 100 MPH. IDK

Swapping out individual components will have an effect but I've always been skeptical as to the overall effectiveness. Suspension is a very complex dynamical system that takes some serious horsepower to model and to analyze; geometry (strut vs. U/L control arm vs. multi-link), spring rates (meaning, variable rate gradient), unsprung weight, component construction (stamped steel vs. forged aluminum), chassis and subframe stiffness, and probably a bunch of other stuff, all work in complex concert to give an effect.