A New Kind of Cadillac For A New Kind of Cadillac Owner

[Submariner]

That's not subjective.  That's fact.


Also, have you ever been in an old Lexus ES?  The materials are really quite good and there's a feeling of solidity with everything you touch.

No - that's not a fact. 

[cawimmer430]

If you think a Lexus is overpriced, then you need to check out the MBUSA website.  The Lexus is bigger, gets better mileage, has more power, better range, has standard leather and memory seats, a better stereo, and what I feel are better seats.  I've driven the 2011 Lexus ES.  It's a genuinely nice car to drive.  The C300 is also nice, but you have to pay up in order to get what's standard on the Lexus.  The interior on the Lexus also has nicer materials.  That's not subjective.  That's fact.

Where do I say "overpriced"? I said Lexus is overrated. And in the sense of "badge engineered Toyota with no brand heritage", they're overpriced. I don't want to get into this argument again, but here in Europe a luxury brand has to stand for something in terms of the badge. In America you guys obviously care more about features. Lada could release the Vodka luxury brand in the US tomorrow and offer fully loaded cars and you'd gob them up like there is no tomorrow! 

Also, have you ever been in an old Lexus ES?  The materials are really quite good and there's a feeling of solidity with everything you touch.

Lexus never tried selling a badge engineered Camry in Europe. They still don't. 

So therefore I've never been inside an ES.

[CJ]

In America, it's clear that we care about having a high quality, reliable, good value product.  That's why Lexus sells. 

Of all people, YOU should know that Mercedes' quality and reliability took a HUGE hit in the 90s and 2000s.  They're just now starting to get back to where they were.  The W140, W124, W123, W126, etc were all fantastically built and reliable.  However, their predecessors weren't constructed entirely all that well and were fairly unreliable.  Where Mercedes was falling, Lexus was rising.  Lexus does mean something to the American consumer.  It means you're getting a high quality product.

Europe =/= America. 

[cawimmer430]

May be subjective but just comparing my mom's ES300 vs my aunt's C280 during the same period in the mid 90s, the ES300  was significantly better.  The dash has some sort faux leather vinyl covering it, vs straight up really hard plastic with bumps on it. 

The W202 C-Class of the mid-1990s had essentially the same interior materials found in the W124 which everyone here praises also for "interior quality". 

The original W203 C-Class had a crap interior, but the facelifted W203 received a fitting interior whose quality difference was like night and day compared to the original.

I mean exactly that.. the past 20 years.  The stuff that you're posting at over 20 years old which is why I did not include them.  In the past 20 years, Mercedes quality has gone down the drain significantly.  Yet you seem to masturbate over overpriced Mercedes Benz plastic.

I'm not a dash stroaker. As long as the cabin looks and feels premium (in a premium car), it's all good to me. 

I find these arguments over the Internet on various forums to be very silly. People will create 15-page threads based on "_____ interior is way better than _______ interior." Really lame.

[cawimmer430]

Lexus does mean something to the American consumer.  It means you're getting a high quality product.

And this is how we Europeans feel about our brands. Our brands give us quality products. Our brands give us products specially tailored to our needs and requirements. Our brands offer us various engine choices and allow us to customize our cars with features that we want and will use. A fully-loaded car might be appealing to some, but most people here want to individualize their cars with features and options that make sense to them or that they'll use. Lexus doesn't offer that kind of individualization here. Lexus doesn't even offer any economical engine choices here. And the only fuel-efficient car they offer at the moment (IS220d) is a piss poor half-hearted attempt (1/3 safety features of the IS250, no automatic transmission option and as of a few years ago no particulate filter) at "grabbing sales", but not "competing" with the diesel A4, 3er or C-Class.

Audi, BMW, MB and Lexus all offer quality vehicles. So what if the average Lexus has 4.5 problems per year and the average Mercedes has 5.5 problems per year? Wow, the Benz is so unreliable! 

[CJ]

You know for a god damn fact that cars MB made in the 90s and 00s was absolute garbage.  The plastic on my buddy's 2001 S500's interior door pulls was separating.  Look at a comparable Lexus and that won't be happening.  The radio decided it didn't want to be a part of the car anymore on the way back from Alabama almost 2 years ago.  It just randomly stopped working.  Memphis, TN came up and the radio came back.  The paint quality was fairly bad on that car as well.  The passenger side mirror had to be replaced twice because the motors were defective. 

[NomisR]

Where do I say "overpriced"? I said Lexus is overrated. And in the sense of "badge engineered Toyota with no brand heritage", they're overpriced. I don't want to get into this argument again, but here in Europe a luxury brand has to stand for something in terms of the badge. In America you guys obviously care more about features. Lada could release the Vodka luxury brand in the US tomorrow and offer fully loaded cars and you'd gob them up like there is no tomorrow! 



Lexus never tried selling a badge engineered Camry in Europe. They still don't. 

So therefore I've never been inside an ES.

Your bias is showing.. so what do you call Audis?  They're the same badge engineering as Lexus ES. 

[NomisR]

The W202 C-Class of the mid-1990s had essentially the same interior materials found in the W124 which everyone here praises also for "interior quality". 

The original W203 C-Class had a crap interior, but the facelifted W203 received a fitting interior whose quality difference was like night and day compared to the original.



I'm not a dash stroaker. As long as the cabin looks and feels premium (in a premium car), it's all good to me. 

I find these arguments over the Internet on various forums to be very silly. People will create 15-page threads based on "_____ interior is way better than _______ interior." Really lame.

The problem with what you're saying is, compared to the Lexus models of the same year during that time.. hell I'd say even today with the exception of the IS series, the MB competitor has a cheaper or gaudier interior than the Lexus counterparts. 

Again, this is subjective, but there's a lot of placement and Ergonomic issues with MB that feels cheap.

[NomisR]

And this is how we Europeans feel about our brands. Our brands give us quality products. Our brands give us products specially tailored to our needs and requirements. Our brands offer us various engine choices and allow us to customize our cars with features that we want and will use. A fully-loaded car might be appealing to some, but most people here want to individualize their cars with features and options that make sense to them or that they'll use. Lexus doesn't offer that kind of individualization here. Lexus doesn't even offer any economical engine choices here. And the only fuel-efficient car they offer at the moment (IS220d) is a piss poor half-hearted attempt (1/3 safety features of the IS250, no automatic transmission option and as of a few years ago no particulate filter) at "grabbing sales", but not "competing" with the diesel A4, 3er or C-Class.

Audi, BMW, MB and Lexus all offer quality vehicles. So what if the average Lexus has 4.5 problems per year and the average Mercedes has 5.5 problems per year? Wow, the Benz is so unreliable! 

Well, if Europeans wants to get a Mercedes Benz S-Class with no power windows, cloth seats, manual transimission, manual seats, so be it.  More power to them, but that's no my definition of luxury nor would I consider it a luxury car. 

[cawimmer430]

You know for a god damn fact that cars MB made in the 90s and 00s was absolute garbage.  The plastic on my buddy's 2001 S500's interior door pulls was separating.  Look at a comparable Lexus and that won't be happening.  The radio decided it didn't want to be a part of the car anymore on the way back from Alabama almost 2 years ago.  It just randomly stopped working.  Memphis, TN came up and the radio came back.  The paint quality was fairly bad on that car as well.  The passenger side mirror had to be replaced twice because the motors were defective. 

Those cars weren't the best products MB made, but they were far from garbage. In my circle of friends there are people with W210 E-Classes that have over 500,000 km on the odometer and are still in great shape and have been fairly problem-free. Hell, we had a 2002 E320 which was supposedly very unreliable in terms of electronics. Ours never missed a beat and when we traded it in for the E350 CGI it was still in great shape: mechanicals, electrics etc.

The biggest issue on the mid-1990s MB cars were rust and some electrical gremlins. Cost-cutting was a big factor and sure, some interiors aspects might have worn off quicker etc.

[cawimmer430]

Your bias is showing.. so what do you call Audis?  They're the same badge engineering as Lexus ES.  

Audi uses VW platforms, transmissions and some engines. I believe the Lexus ES uses the Camry platform - but it sure as hell is FUN calling it a badge engineered Camry.  

And Audi also has more history and heritage beginning with their founding in 1910 than Lexus.

[cawimmer430]

Well, if Europeans wants to get a Mercedes Benz S-Class with no power windows, cloth seats, manual transimission, manual seats, so be it.  More power to them, but that's no my definition of luxury nor would I consider it a luxury car. 

The only current Mercedes' with manual windows are the A and B-Classes - and those manual windows are only found at the back. Front doors have electric windows and electric windows are optional for the rear. Do I care if my theoretical A or B-Class has manual windows at the back? Hell no. How often do I travel with people back there anyway? In the summers I use A/C and in the winters I have my heater on. The people in the back of my A/B-Class have no real reason to open those windows at any time. So why should I have electric windows back there in the first place? If I were in the market for an A/B-Class I'd keep the rear windows manual. No need to dish out cash for something that will never be used (electric switches, motors etc.).

You know, come to think of it, I don't think I've ever even used the rear windows of the BMW 118i, which are both electrically operated FYI.

The S-Class since the W140 has always come with automatic transmissions, A/C, electric seats and MB-Tex/leather. The W126 and past S-Classes were available with cloth seats and manual transmissions and optional A/C. So what? It was a whole different ball game back then. Some people wanted manual transmissions in their S-Class, especially with the weaker engines. BMW offered a their E38 7-Series (728i/730i) with a 5-speed manual well into 2001.

[MX793]

Audi uses VW platforms, transmissions and some engines. I believe the Lexus ES uses the Camry platform - but it sure as hell is FUN calling it a badge engineered Camry. 

And Audi also has more history and heritage beginning with their founding in 1910 than Lexus.

Today's Audi is not the same company that was founded in 1909.  That Audi dissolved in 1945.  Today's Audi has only been around since 1966 when VW, who bought the trademark rights for Auto Union and its pre-war brand names, opted to revive the brand name to replace the tarnished DKW brand they had previously been selling cars under.

[Vinsanity]

I see Wimmer is up to his usual antics again

Besides H&H?, is there any consolation to owning a badge-engineered Golf over a badge-engineered Camry? Or is the warm and fuzzy feeling of H&H? supposed to be a consolation in itself?

[Xer0]

 

Of course a thread about a terrible Cadillac would become another MB vs. Lexus dash stroking battle.

[ifcar]

I see Wimmer is up to his usual antics again

Besides H&H?, is there any consolation to owning a badge-engineered Golf over a badge-engineered Camry? Or is the warm and fuzzy feeling of H&H? supposed to be a consolation in itself?

Audi: "We've been badge-engineering since before Lexus was born!"

[cawimmer430]

Today's Audi is not the same company that was founded in 1909.  That Audi dissolved in 1945.  Today's Audi has only been around since 1966 when VW, who bought the trademark rights for Auto Union and its pre-war brand names, opted to revive the brand name to replace the tarnished DKW brand they had previously been selling cars under.

All true. But there is past history right there and that counts.

It's the same with Maybach. Maybach was big during the '20s and '30s and even in the early '40s and they were run by Wilhelm Maybach, an engineering genius and innovative technician.

[cawimmer430]

Besides H&H?, is there any consolation to owning a badge-engineered Golf over a badge-engineered Camry? Or is the warm and fuzzy feeling of H&H? supposed to be a consolation in itself?

Let me ask you what's so special about owning a Lexus? A brand that to me, and others, means nothing in terms of brand appeal. There is no interesting or PASSIONATE history behind this brand. It was solely created as a means of delivering mass production premium cars to the American market (nowhere else at first). How absolutely lame and boring and - calculated. Absolutely lame. For many years they weren't even a global brand and only succeeded in the US. In the few markets they were active in globally they were a colossal failure. That's Lexus to me. A brand created for the North American market where all cars are the same (no individual customization possible). Boring. Boring. Boring.

A Lexus is like sex with a condom. Boring. How often have I used that word in this response in regards to Lexus?

When I walk through the BMW, Mercedes and Porsche Museum (or any car museum here for that matter), there is an emotional connection to the cars on display there. That is a statement to the history and heritage of these brands. Laugh all you want at the H&H stuff I mention, but here that's important for a luxury brand. It's one of the things that makes a luxury brand desirable here. I'm not the biggest Toyota fan, but when I walked through that Toyota Museum in Germany I felt a connection with many of the cars there because I had grown up with them and they're a testimony to the brand. With Lexus there is nothing like that. Lexus is stale and emotionless. A brand for people who just care about features and think that's what a luxury car is all about. To me, what makes the brand and the history and achievements behind it are more important than some gimmicky gadget that is offered as standard in a Lexus and will never ever be used.

[NomisR]

All true. But there is past history right there and that counts.

It's the same with Maybach. Maybach was big during the '20s and '30s and even in the early '40s and they were run by Wilhelm Maybach, an engineering genius and innovative technician.

So you're saying this thing



has more H&H?  than Volkswagens because it's having a past history that counts? 

[Laconian]

H&H is not transferrable beyond its country of origin. RTFM

[Vinsanity]

To me, what makes the brand and the history and achievements behind it are more important than some gimmicky gadget that is offered as standard in a Lexus and will never ever be used.

I agree that past achievements do add credibility to a brand name. The original LS400 and SC400 were pretty amazing achievements for Lexus. I saw the LS400 in 1990 as what the 500SEL must've been in 1981: a breakthrough product that redefined what it took to be a luxury car. And the SC400, I consider to be one of the iconic shapes of the 1990's, that happened to share the same remarkable build quality as its big sister.

Funny you should criticize the use of gadgetry in luxury cars, because that is precisely what Mercedes has been using to compete in the luxury market ever since Lexus came out. That, and waging hp wars, which incidentally you also criticize (not to mention subject us to your tired "humor").

Yes, the "big deal" about owning a Lexus is really just owning a mass-production premium car. But guess what, same with Mercedes.

A Lexus is like sex with a condom. Boring. How often have I used that word in this response in regards to Lexus?

Don't tell me that you would turn down sex with a hot girl if she made you wear a condom

[NomisR]

H&H is not transferrable beyond its country of origin. RTFM

What page?  I don't see it...

But if that's the case.. I guess it would apply to Bugatti, Lamborghini, Lotus, Jaguar, Volvo, Saab, etc...

[cawimmer430]

So you're saying this thing



has more H&H?  than Volkswagens because it's having a past history that counts? 

I'm not saying it "has more", I'm saying "it has". There's an interesting story behind the Rover brand. Rover, like many old-school marques, began in the good old days of when the automobile was just developing. THAT was the golden age of the automobile, the '20s, '30s, '50s... and Lexus wasn't part of that. Lexus to me is just an emotionless brand. I have no desire to own a Lexus no matter how reliable they might be. It's just an "empty shell" and there's nothing to get excited about when driving a car with a meaningless badge compared to their rivals.

[MX793]

What page?  I don't see it...

But if that's the case.. I guess it would apply to Bugatti, Lamborghini, Lotus, Jaguar, Volvo, Saab, etc...

Lambo is owned by a German company now, but at least their division is still headquartered in Italy and IIRC their cars are still built there.  Same with Lotus, Volvo, Jag and Saab.  Bugatti, on the other hand, actually went though a fairly long period where it did not exist and did not produce cars, it was simply a brandname/trademark that somebody owned but didn't use (like Audi or Mini), later to be revived.  Not sure I'd consider any of the heritage of the original Bugattis to really carry over to the current one.

[cawimmer430]

I agree that past achievements do add credibility to a brand name. The original LS400 and SC400 were pretty amazing achievements for Lexus. I saw the LS400 in 1990 as what the 500SEL must've been in 1981: a breakthrough product that redefined what it took to be a luxury car. And the SC400, I consider to be one of the iconic shapes of the 1990's, that happened to share the same remarkable build quality as its big sister.

Lexus is developing their own brand history right now, BUT COMPARED to their chief rival, Mercedes, it's not comparable. Over the 100 years that MB has been around and what they've achieved in terms of technical and safety innovations, motorsport etc., Lexus just doesn't compare. So where cars from both brands might be on par in terms of technology etc., badge-wise Lexus doesn't compete IMO.

To me the meaning behind the badge is important. There has to be a reason why I want to own a _______. A Mercedes badge has all that history behind it and that creates a reason to want one. I don't feel that way about Lexus, Acura or Infiniti. As good as they might be, their badges don't mean anything to me at all. I don't aspire to own one of their products because their brand image is so "empty" compared to the European or American luxury brands.

Funny you should criticize the use of gadgetry in luxury cars, because that is precisely what Mercedes has been using to compete in the luxury market ever since Lexus came out. That, and waging hp wars, which incidentally you also criticize (not to mention subject us to your tired "humor").

Yes, the "big deal" about owning a Lexus is really just owning a mass-production premium car. But guess what, same with Mercedes.

Mercedes' also offers their customers a choice to individualize their cars with the options and features they want. These might cost extra, but some people value individuality or the features they want. Besides, a US-spec Benz already comes with more standard features than their European counterparts. Buyers still have the option of adding things they want or consider important.

AFAIK, Lexus doesn't offer this individualization aspect since their cars come well equipped from the factory. One of their selling points is "fully loaded". MB has to compete with Lexus so they're offering the stuff people want. Simple business strategy.

Don't tell me that you would turn down sex with a hot girl if she made you wear a condom

Of course not. All I am saying is that sex without a condom feels much better than sex with a condom. DO YOU AGREE?

[Vinsanity]

Lexus is developing their own brand history right now, BUT COMPARED to their chief rival, Mercedes, it's not comparable. Over the 100 years that MB has been around and what they've achieved in terms of technical and safety innovations, motorsport etc., Lexus just doesn't compare. So where cars from both brands might be on par in terms of technology etc., badge-wise Lexus doesn't compete IMO.

So what exactly has Mercedes acheived since the debut of Lexus?

[cawimmer430]

So what exactly has Mercedes acheived since the debut of Lexus?

What do you want me to list?


Technical achievements?

Safety developments?

Motorsport success?

Iconic cars in the making?

[NomisR]

Lexus is developing their own brand history right now, BUT COMPARED to their chief rival, Mercedes, it's not comparable. Over the 100 years that MB has been around and what they've achieved in terms of technical and safety innovations, motorsport etc., Lexus just doesn't compare. So where cars from both brands might be on par in terms of technology etc., badge-wise Lexus doesn't compete IMO.

To me the meaning behind the badge is important. There has to be a reason why I want to own a _______. A Mercedes badge has all that history behind it and that creates a reason to want one. I don't feel that way about Lexus, Acura or Infiniti. As good as they might be, their badges don't mean anything to me at all. I don't aspire to own one of their products because their brand image is so "empty" compared to the European or American luxury brands.


Mercedes' also offers their customers a choice to individualize their cars with the options and features they want. These might cost extra, but some people value individuality or the features they want. Besides, a US-spec Benz already comes with more standard features than their European counterparts. Buyers still have the option of adding things they want or consider important.

AFAIK, Lexus doesn't offer this individualization aspect since their cars come well equipped from the factory. One of their selling points is "fully loaded". MB has to compete with Lexus so they're offering the stuff people want. Simple business strategy.




Of course not. All I am saying is that sex without a condom feels much better than sex with a condom. DO YOU AGREE?

I'm looking at the build it yourself thing for mbusa, and it seems like you have to choose package a to get package b, and package b for c, and so forth, you're pretty much limited to package and not allow to choose a la carte for majority of the options.  And then you're pretty much limited to what's available at the dealership.

But then again, you have significantly more negotiating room with the all in one package because dealers will try to get rid of inventory, vs having to get the car for MSRP because there's no inventory cost. 

As for buying it for the badge, would it mean a piece of turd with a MB badge have more H&H?  than a Lexus?

[Vinsanity]

What do you want me to list?


Technical achievements?

Safety developments?

Motorsport success?

Iconic cars in the making?

Anything that objectively makes the M-B badge more prestigious than the Lexus badge

[ifcar]

In the U.S., the luxury brands with history and heritage are Cadillac and Lincoln, not ze Germans. Cadillac I think still gets some boost across demographics from its traditional place as an aspirational car, but first the Europeans and then the Japanese took away their market share by offering superior products.

And I've never heard anyone suggest that, for instance, Lincoln's H&H adds to the appeal of its chromed-up Ford Fusion, Edge, Crown Victoria or Expedition -- vehicles that are demonstrably inferior to competing imports of all origins, both those that do and don't share their platforms with cheaper models. No one says, "I may be in a sorry excuse for luxury, but at least I know that my badge represents a time when Lincoln was a leader, 50 years ago."