Steering Feel

[2o6]

It's the logical progression of things though. The image issue (which I think is mostly unwarranted) won't last forever.
No, it isn't. What exactly are your opinions founded on, anyway?  (And I am not trying to be insulting, simply pointing out you have no facts/evidence to support this claim, despite stating it as fact.) The thought that mechanical is somehow superior to electronic is a little silly, in my opinion. It's no more dangerous than if your steering column or brake pedal linkage, etc. failed at freeway speeds, and there's no real reason to believe it's more likely. If the systems aren't connected to anything where the software could be "hacked" and the hardware is designed to be similarly difficult to damage as current mechanical systems, there are some huge advantages from a weight/cost/maintenance perspective.  As cougs pointed out, airplanes use the same basic thing with a lot higher stakes (but as soup said, of course get more frequent inspections than a regular car). And there are production vehicles getting close to drive by wire, it's really only a matter of time. As it becomes more common, maintenance schedules/checkups will change to monitor the systems and make sure they're still working properly just as it currently does with a mostly mechanical system.

If it fails, you can at least manhandle a physical, mechanical connection between you and the wheel.


It's a scary thought that if the servos controlling the relationship between the steering wheel and the steering rack and the ones between you and the wheel failed, there is absolutely NOTHING you can do to even fix this. You're a goner. At least with a mechanical connection, you have a fighting chance to correct/fix the problem.


For example: What if the car loses power? (I've had several cars do this. This happened to me and my neon a few times) I was able to steer and guide the car to keep it from hitting anything. Imagine if that entire setup was replaced by electronic servos and no physical linkage from the wheel to the rack. I wouldn't have been able to control the car.

FWIW, modern airliners operate by wire - one of the chief reasons why is it is more reliable than mechanical connections.

There's also far fewer of them in service (compared to automobiles) and they are built at a much higher cost.

[thewizard16]

Airpane systems are not only well maintained and inspected, but double and triple redundant. The cost to duplicate such systems in a car would be restrictive to say the least.

But, the big question is: wher is the inherent advantage? I honestly don't see one.

Less bulky components, less unnecessary weight, less things to move around in car accidents, better integration of safety systems, less parts to maintain, etc. There real question is, what's the inherent disadvantage? There's really no disadvantage aside from perceived safety issues, which I really think are largely psychological. Sure, programming/software can fail. So can a piece of metal or the joints/pumps/etc. connected to them.

[Soup DeVille]

Less bulky components, less unnecessary weight, less things to move around in car accidents, better integration of safety systems, less parts to maintain, etc. There real question is, what's the inherent disadvantage? There's really no disadvantage aside from perceived safety issues, which I really think are largely psychological. Sure, programming/software can fail. So can a piece of metal or the joints/pumps/etc. connected to them.

I think you're just plain wrong on most of the advantages. I can imagine a lot of future scenario, but its hard to imagine a world where a closed loop feedback pair of absolute encoded servo motors and the power, processing, and cabling required in such a system would be simple, less bulky, and weigh less than a conventional system.

Also, its not the programming or software that usually fails in those: its the hardware.

[NomisR]

Less bulky components, less unnecessary weight, less things to move around in car accidents, better integration of safety systems, less parts to maintain, etc. There real question is, what's the inherent disadvantage? There's really no disadvantage aside from perceived safety issues, which I really think are largely psychological. Sure, programming/software can fail. So can a piece of metal or the joints/pumps/etc. connected to them.

Having an electrical system and electric motors is less maintainence?  I think you have it backwards.

[Colonel Cadillac]

I agree about the 2000 Camry steering.  For what it is, our Camry has pretty good steering.  Direct, precise, and a little bit of feel.  

The late 00's Camry I drove had positively horrendous steering and feel. I absolutely hated it.



My A4's steering does not have great "feel," but the level of feedback increases with speed. The effort is extremely light at low speeds, which I quite like especially around this city where I average maybe 17 MPH since I don't have to put as much muscle into steering (and low speeds are where you move the wheel the most). As I go faster, the effort dramatically increases and on the highway it's pretty stiff for good linear cruising. My mom's '09 A4 is the newest Audi I've driven and the steering is slightly better than mine I think, but not markedly different (I actually thought it was slightly twitchy on the highway, but nothing drastic). Steering feedback is an area where Audi can definitely improve.

[CJ]

Late 2000's does not equal 2000.

This is my dad's car:

[Onslaught]

Is that a 4WD MPV?

[Rupert]

I would rock a 4WD MPV. Put some big all-terrain tires on it and build a bed in the back.

[2o6]

Less bulky components, less unnecessary weight, less things to move around in car accidents, better integration of safety systems, less parts to maintain, etc. There real question is, what's the inherent disadvantage? There's really no disadvantage aside from  safety issues, which I really think are largely psychological. Sure, programming/software can fail. So can a piece of metal or the joints/pumps/etc. connected to them.

As soup said, it's the hardware not the programming.



If the servos and motors controlling the steering setup lose power for some reason, you are up the creek without a paddle.

[S204STi]

Part of the problem here, 2o6, is that the Focus does in fact have phenomenal steering for any car, let alone compacts, so your bar is pretty high.  My WRX certainly isn't as direct or responsive.  But I think there are a few cars out there still with exceptional feel and feedback, it's just that generally you won't find them in the ranks of non-sporting compacts and midsizers.

[thewizard16]

Having an electrical system and electric motors is less maintainence?  I think you have it backwards.

I think you're just plain wrong on most of the advantages. I can imagine a lot of future scenario, but its hard to imagine a world where a closed loop feedback pair of absolute encoded servo motors and the power, processing, and cabling required in such a system would be simple, less bulky, and weigh less than a conventional system.

Also, its not the programming or software that usually fails in those: its the hardware.

I tried to find someplace with more engineering knowledge than I have to discuss it a little further. I am not a mechanical engineer so I'm not qualified to defend the merits and discuss the disadvantages of DBW, but I'm inclined to agree with any engineer I've talked to or read an article from discussing the future potential and benefits of it. At any rate, I'm really not trying to argue, but it wouldn't be me that's wrong about the benefits, it'd be the engineers that designed the system in the first place, and I don't think there'd be any reason for them to have designed it if it was intrinsically inferior.
http://www.cvel.clemson.edu/auto/AuE835_Projects/pillai_project.html - Discusses things in a bit more depth and shows some schematics, also briefly addresses some concerns.
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/car-driving-safety/safety-regulatory-devices/drive-by-wire.htm
http://www.sae.org/congress/learning/tech-mon-kallenbach.pdf
Quotes:

Many traditional mechanical components can be eliminated such as shafts, pumps, hoses, fluids, coolers, cylinders, etc., which reduces the weight of the vehicle and improves efficiency.

This reduces weight, increases operational accuracy and stretches out the time between service visits for things like mechanical maintenance and other adjustments. Some by-wire systems wouldn't even require service at all.

There is more space available in the engine compartment

Simplifies designs and lowers manufacturing costs

Lesser space consumed making the engine compartment and compact and helping in better space utilization

Reduces the weight of the overall system thus improving fuel efficiency

[2o6]

And if it fails, you are up the creek without a paddle.

[Rupert]

You don't hear of steering racks and steering columns just randomly breaking. You do hear of servos and wiring and computers and connectors and etc. breaking all the damn time. If there isn't a steering column, I can't get behind the idea. A sophisticated electric assist makes sense, but that's fairly standard these days, AFAIK.

[2o6]

Gravedig, but I still haven't found steering that beats the MK1 Focus.

[CJ]

Is that a 4WD MPV?

3 years later...


No, it was just a 1990 MPV. 2WD, V6, 34,000 miles. My grandmother bought it new and it was in mint condition. I miss the shit out of that thing,

[MexicoCityM3]

I like this thread's original purpose.

IMO steering feel is very overrated, like a "holy grail" of the car driving experience. Maybe I am an insensitive idiot, but really I don't get it.

I value precision in the steering, as in can I place the car where I want and tell (I guess that's feel?) when the limits approach. The second part about telling where the limits are I find is much better communicated by the movement of the whole car's body rather than this "mysterious" steering feel. And you feel that through your entire body.

I definitely notice cars where you feel the small bumps on the road more or less through the steering, but I don't care that much about that.

[ifcar]

Gravedig, but I still haven't found steering that beats the MK1 Focus.

MX-5. But there still isn't much.

[MexicoCityM3]

Found this article (first link on Google): http://www.prodrive.com/level4.html?id=232

I guess I care a lot more about vehicle dynamics than about steering feel.

[2o6]

Found this article (first link on Google): http://www.prodrive.com/level4.html?id=232

I guess I care a lot more about vehicle dynamics than about steering feel.

They aren't mutually exclusive

[Cookie Monster]

The best steering feel I've felt is my car now that it has stiff everything and wide, super sticky tires.

Driving the 4Runner in comparison and being able to wobble the wheel around while still going straight is hilarious.

[hotrodalex]

'71 Camaro with Delphi 600 series steering box. Absolutely perfect weight and as much communication you could ever want. No wiggle or dead spots, good quick ratio.

[MexicoCityM3]

They aren't mutually exclusive

I know. I just care so much more about body control that I don't get all the anguish most reviewers have about newer EPS systems.

A few Cars I've driven ranked by steering feel (of course my memory is probably tricking me on several):

1. Lotus Elise
2. 997.1 GT3
3. F360CS
4. thecarnut's Miata
5. E36 325is
6. Z4 25i
7. E46 M3 / Z4M
8. E60 M5
9. E90 M3
10. CTS 3.6 (new one)
11. F30 328i
12. F10 528i (with active steering)
13. F10 M5
14. X6M

[hotrodalex]

I wish I could comment on an Elise but my friend sold it before I had a chance to drive it.

[Raza]

Elise is best at everything.

[280Z Turbo]

Gravedig, but I still haven't found steering that beats the MK1 Focus.

It's funny, my E46 was a bit of a downgrade in terms of steering feel from the lowly ol' rustbucket Focus.

[MrH]

I think steering feel is just a catch all phrase people use to describe a lot of handling characteristics.

I think steering accuracy, and turn in immediacy are much, much more important to me.  In that area, nothing really touches the BRZ still.  There is basically no delay from when you start turning the wheel, to when the vehicle begins to move.

I've driven plenty of older cars with a lot of "steering feel", but you yank the wheel, and it seems like the car takes forever to roll, set, and then begin turning in.

[GoCougs]

I like this thread's original purpose.

IMO steering feel is very overrated, like a "holy grail" of the car driving experience. Maybe I am an insensitive idiot, but really I don't get it.

I value precision in the steering, as in can I place the car where I want and tell (I guess that's feel?) when the limits approach. The second part about telling where the limits are I find is much better communicated by the movement of the whole car's body rather than this "mysterious" steering feel. And you feel that through your entire body.

I definitely notice cars where you feel the small bumps on the road more or less through the steering, but I don't care that much about that.

Couldn't agree more. Seems a few years ago "steering feel" was the new cool thing to talk about when it really doesn't mean anything.

[12,000 RPM]

Lol

Im not surprised by Cougs not caring but MCM3? Maybe you get to drive so many cars with good steering feel you take it for granted.

But yea, for folks who reach their cars' limits of traction with any level of regularity, steering feel is important. Maybe not to where you can feel every granule in the road, but at the minimum to where you get that rising level of resistance as you approach the limits of adhesion, and that release of tension once you cross it... that shit matters. That ties in with vehicle dynamics and steering accuracy in a big way... if you don't know how much grip you have, you don't know how hard you can push, or how the car will respond to further input. I'm gonna call shenanigans on steering feel not being important. Maybe you guys need to drive more cars with bad steering feel. Hopping out of my car or off my bike into my wife's car, I have no idea what's going on at the front wheels. There's no resistive weight and the tires just let go. I hate driving it.

[hotrodalex]

Steering feel is important but good steering shouldn't even be something that sticks out. A good sports car can be ruined by steering feel, but good steering feel doesn't make something a sports car.

[MX793]

For street driving, where you'll never exceed 7/10s of what the car can do, steering feel doesn't count for much.  Accuracy is far more important.  For the track (or autocross), it certainly can make a difference.  Still not as important as accuracy, but hardly worthless.  Yes, you can generally get a sense through the seat of your pants as to what the car is doing.  It's not like an attentive driver is left completely in the dark in the absence of steering feel and feedback.  However, from experience, I can balance a car on the edge of grip easier in something like an NB Miata, where you have a very good sense of what's going on at the front wheels, than I can in my Mustang, which has pretty numb steering.  Basically, I don't really have a sense that the front wheels are losing grip in the Mustang until after they've let go and I hear the tires howling and sense that the car isn't rotating.  I basically don't really know I've reached the limit until I've gone past it.  The Miata, on the other hand, lets you know through the steering wheel (via the change in effort) pretty much the moment you start transitioning into understeer.