Steering Feel

[hotrodalex]

A good front end alignment does wonders for steering as well.

[2o6]

Bad steering can be the bane and ruin a good car. If a steering is overassisted, too vague, ratio is too slow, etc, it can really ruin the accuracy of handling. Suspension geometry influences steering (obviously)



That's what I meant with this thread, really. I don't like my steering to be too sensitive to road imperfections, but if the setup is entirely wrong then it can ruin a car. The MK1 Focus had an excellent combination of heft, accuracy, and overall goodness.


BMW's generally have good steering even at their worst. When you've driven a 2002 Camry and the steering is far too overboosted and the ratio itself is too slow, it makes things harder to determine WTF the car is doing when the car gets going faster.

[2o6]

I think steering feel is just a catch all phrase people use to describe a lot of handling characteristics.

I think steering accuracy, and turn in immediacy are much, much more important to me.  In that area, nothing really touches the BRZ still.  There is basically no delay from when you start turning the wheel, to when the vehicle begins to move.

I've driven plenty of older cars with a lot of "steering feel", but you yank the wheel, and it seems like the car takes forever to roll, set, and then begin turning in.

The FRS did have good steering, but I liked the MK1 Focus just a bit more (it's a little easier to drive it like a regular car, etc parking lots and shit)

[MrH]

The FRS did have good steering, but I liked the MK1 Focus just a bit more (it's a little easier to drive it like a regular car, etc parking lots and shit)

Well, mine isn't exactly stock anymore. Mine is a pretty drastic difference from stock honestly.

[hotrodalex]

Lowered + wider wheels, anything else?

[MexicoCityM3]

Lol

Im not surprised by Cougs not caring but MCM3? Maybe you get to drive so many cars with good steering feel you take it for granted.

But yea, for folks who reach their cars' limits of traction with any level of regularity, steering feel is important. Maybe not to where you can feel every granule in the road, but at the minimum to where you get that rising level of resistance as you approach the limits of adhesion, and that release of tension once you cross it... that shit matters. That ties in with vehicle dynamics and steering accuracy in a big way... if you don't know how much grip you have, you don't know how hard you can push, or how the car will respond to further input. I'm gonna call shenanigans on steering feel not being important. Maybe you guys need to drive more cars with bad steering feel. Hopping out of my car or off my bike into my wife's car, I have no idea what's going on at the front wheels. There's no resistive weight and the tires just let go. I hate driving it.

I can feel a difference and prefer "better" steering. The F10 M5 for example does feel very disconnected.

I just feel that this specific characteristic has been widely overblown in a lot of the press recently. Particularly in C&D where it seems it's all they care about.

I also think that the car communicates in many ways when the limit approaches or you go beyond it. And I personally use my butt more than the steering itself.

[2o6]

I can feel a difference and prefer "better" steering. The F10 M5 for example does feel very disconnected.

I just feel that this specific characteristic has been widely overblown in a lot of the press recently. Particularly in C&D where it seems it's all they care about.

I also think that the car communicates in many ways when the limit approaches or you go beyond it. And I personally use my butt more than the steering itself.

Some new systems in cars today are absolutely terrible. They're really bad, even in cars that are supposed to be sporty.



The new 3-series is a good example. The E90 had great steering (even if a bit too heavy and slow for my tastes). The latest car doesn't feel that different than a Toyota Corolla.

[MexicoCityM3]

Some new systems in cars today are absolutely terrible. They're really bad, even in cars that are supposed to be sporty.



The new 3-series is a good example. The E90 had great steering (even if a bit too heavy and slow for my tastes). The latest car doesn't feel that different than a Toyota Corolla.

I don't know man, I have driven the new F30 a lot and find no great fault with it. I did drive an F30 335i at the track during a driving school last year (there is a post here somewhere about that) and didn't find it wanting. Even the ActiveHybrid 3 is ok IMO.

Haven't driven a Corolla though. And I hope I never do.

:)

[12,000 RPM]

I can feel a difference and prefer "better" steering. The F10 M5 for example does feel very disconnected.

I just feel that this specific characteristic has been widely overblown in a lot of the press recently. Particularly in C&D where it seems it's all they care about.

I also think that the car communicates in many ways when the limit approaches or you go beyond it. And I personally use my butt more than the steering itself.

Its the press' job to overblow everything

I also get the feeling C&D bashed an important new BMW for not having good steering feel

Anyways steering feel is one of those things like engine notes or throttle response. Does it really matter for everyday driving? No. But can it make a car much more enjoyable to drive? Fuck yes. Point blank, steering effort should be proportional to the lateral load on the tires.

[MexicoCityM3]

Its the press' job to overblow everything

I also get the feeling C&D bashed an important new BMW for not having good steering feel

Anyways steering feel is one of those things like engine notes or throttle response. Does it really matter for everyday driving? No. But can it make a car much more enjoyable to drive? Fuck yes. Point blank, steering effort should be proportional to the lateral load on the tires.

I´ll be driving the new M3/M4 on track soon, it seems BMW will have an experience event in a few weeks. I am looking forward to see how much I like it or not. Also, I hope it doesn't overheat at this altitude on track. That would be a bummer.

[68_427]

Lowered + wider wheels, anything else?

Properly set up coil-overs/camber settings is a bit more than lowering.

[Cookie Monster]

Properly set up coil-overs/camber settings is a bit more than lowering.

Lots of camber, no toe, max caster.

Bam winning alignment.

[MrH]

Lots of camber, no toe, max caster.

Bam winning alignment.

  Not far off from what I'm running.  Ever so slight toe in in the front.

Adjustable lower control arms would be nice in the rear though.  I can't get much camber in the rear.  I'd like another degree.

[68_427]

You pussies aren't running toe out in the rear?

[hotrodalex]

  Not far off from what I'm running.  Ever so slight toe in in the front.

Adjustable lower control arms would be nice in the rear though.  I can't get much camber in the rear.  I'd like another degree.

How much camber/caster?

[hotrodalex]

You pussies aren't running toe out in the rear?

Lemme just go bend my axle.

[Soup DeVille]

You pussies aren't running toe out in the rear?

If your solid axle is giving you toe out, you've got problems.

[68_427]

Both of them have IRS

[Soup DeVille]

Both of them have IRS

An IRS El Camino?

[Rupert]

No, IRS tax lien.

[12,000 RPM]

I´ll be driving the new M3/M4 on track soon, it seems BMW will have an experience event in a few weeks. I am looking forward to see how much I like it or not. Also, I hope it doesn't overheat at this altitude on track. That would be a bummer.

Hmmm the overheating thing is a new one. Good point I never even considered. Def looking forward to your impressions; take pictures/vids if you can.

You pussies aren't running toe out in the rear?

[MrH]

How much camber/caster?

2.8 degrees in the front or so I think

Rear is 1.6 on one side, and like 2.2 on the other.  I'd have to pull the sheets exactly.  Basically, the tolerances for bolting the sub frame to the vehicle aren't very tight from the factory.  I'd like to get some centering bushings to help get the sub frame aligned better, and then some adjustable control arms to get a little more camber in the rear.

Forget how much caster I have.  Much as I could get.

Ever so slight toe in on the front.

[68_427]

An IRS El Camino?

Notice how I posted right after the posters with a NC Miata and BRZ

[hotrodalex]

2.8 lol need new tires yet?

[MrH]

2.8 lol need new tires yet?

Michelin pilot super sports are alien technology. They don't wear.

Also, I corner really hard often enough, it wears just fine

[hotrodalex]

Also, I corner really hard often enough, it wears just fine

"Sorry officer I have to drift down the highway so my front tires don't wear!"

[12,000 RPM]

High camber is doable as long as your toe is skraight. I had Hondas in the -2 to -3 range with no wear problems

I'm gonna see if I can do without a camber kit when I go lo

[MrH]

High camber is doable as long as your toe is skraight. I had Hondas in the -2 to -3 range with no wear problems

I'm gonna see if I can do without a camber kit when I go lo

Yeah. You can't run 3 degrees and a ton of toe in.

I'm running stock top mounts just fine. Pillow ball mounts with camber plates ride like shit for the most part. Not worth it for most daily drivers IMO.

[Cookie Monster]

2.8 degrees in the front or so I think

Rear is 1.6 on one side, and like 2.2 on the other.  I'd have to pull the sheets exactly.  Basically, the tolerances for bolting the sub frame to the vehicle aren't very tight from the factory.  I'd like to get some centering bushings to help get the sub frame aligned better, and then some adjustable control arms to get a little more camber in the rear.

Forget how much caster I have.  Much as I could get.

Ever so slight toe in on the front.

I'm at 2.7 degrees in the front, 2.4 in the back. The Miata can get crazy amounts of camber. I was apparently too low when I went to get my car aligned because the guy could only get 2.7 degrees minimum in the back. I raised it a tiny bit (gotta keep it looking nice, yo) and told him to min out the camber in the back, then added a bit more in the front. I've got 0 toe all around, as well, and even on my 200 treadwear RS3's I'm not seeing any wear problems. I also asked the guy to give me max caster, and he got the caster to like 9.5 degrees in the front. I couldn't turn my wheels lock to lock because the wheels would hit the fender liners.

I think I'm at around 7.5 degrees caster.

Also, with 2.8 degrees in the front and ~2 in the back you must get crazy oversteer when pushed, unless you've got no rear bar or soft rear spring rates compared to the front (although there are probably other factors I'm not taking into account).

[MrH]

I'm at 2.7 degrees in the front, 2.4 in the back. The Miata can get crazy amounts of camber. I was apparently too low when I went to get my car aligned because the guy could only get 2.7 degrees minimum in the back. I raised it a tiny bit (gotta keep it looking nice, yo) and told him to min out the camber in the back, then added a bit more in the front. I've got 0 toe all around, as well, and even on my 200 treadwear RS3's I'm not seeing any wear problems. I also asked the guy to give me max caster, and he got the caster to like 9.5 degrees in the front. I couldn't turn my wheels lock to lock because the wheels would hit the fender liners.

I think I'm at around 7.5 degrees caster.

Also, with 2.8 degrees in the front and ~2 in the back you must get crazy oversteer when pushed, unless you've got no rear bar or soft rear spring rates compared to the front (although there are probably other factors I'm not taking into account).

Yeah, the tail is the first thing to go.  I've got grip fo days in the front.  It's not a huge deal though, it's not scary tail happy.