C&D 2012 Lightning Lap Results

Started by MexicoCityM3, January 12, 2012, 01:34:34 PM

r0tor

Both of which required no investment by GM
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

MrH

Quote from: r0tor on January 22, 2012, 04:22:23 PM
Both of which required no investment by GM

Seriously... stop talking out of your ass.  You have no clue what you're talking about.

Also, low volume vehicles rarely get mid cycle interior refreshes.
2023 Ford Lightning Lariat ER
2019 Acura RDX SH-AWD
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r0tor

#212
Name one sportscar that hasn't received an update since the c6 came out

Even the c6 itself has continually been improved powertrain wise.  The fact no money went to the interior just points to the fact GM does not believe they need to improve the interior to sell cars
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

2o6

Quote from: r0tor on January 22, 2012, 04:49:29 PM
Name one sportscar that hasn't received an update since the c6 came out

Yours.

r0tor

2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

MrH

Quote from: r0tor on January 22, 2012, 04:49:29 PM
Name one sportscar that hasn't received an update since the c6 came out

Even the c6 itself has continually been improved powertrain wise.  The fact no money went to the interior just points to the fact GM does not believe they need to improve the interior to sell cars

The releases a leather wrapped version!
2023 Ford Lightning Lariat ER
2019 Acura RDX SH-AWD
2023 BRZ Limited

Previous: '02 Mazda Protege5, '08 Mazda Miata, '05 Toyota Tacoma, '09 Honda Element, '13 Subaru BRZ, '14 Hyundai Genesis R-Spec 5.0, '15 Toyota 4Runner SR5, '18 Honda Accord EX-L 2.0t, '01 Honda S2000, '20 Subaru Outback XT, '23 Chevy Bolt EUV

r0tor

That's a nice upgrade requiring little to no investment... GM sends out some dashboards and panels to a supplier to stich up and then over charges the customer for it.  No tooling, training, or assembly line changes needed.
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

MrH

:facepalm: you do realize i work for about an automotive interior supplier, right?

You seriously think the standard interior is made in house by GM? Lolz
2023 Ford Lightning Lariat ER
2019 Acura RDX SH-AWD
2023 BRZ Limited

Previous: '02 Mazda Protege5, '08 Mazda Miata, '05 Toyota Tacoma, '09 Honda Element, '13 Subaru BRZ, '14 Hyundai Genesis R-Spec 5.0, '15 Toyota 4Runner SR5, '18 Honda Accord EX-L 2.0t, '01 Honda S2000, '20 Subaru Outback XT, '23 Chevy Bolt EUV

MrH

Oh, and if you want to wrap something, that means totally different substrates. New tooling for all those pieces. You think you could wrap a standard dash with spacer fabric and leather, and expect everything to still fit together?
2023 Ford Lightning Lariat ER
2019 Acura RDX SH-AWD
2023 BRZ Limited

Previous: '02 Mazda Protege5, '08 Mazda Miata, '05 Toyota Tacoma, '09 Honda Element, '13 Subaru BRZ, '14 Hyundai Genesis R-Spec 5.0, '15 Toyota 4Runner SR5, '18 Honda Accord EX-L 2.0t, '01 Honda S2000, '20 Subaru Outback XT, '23 Chevy Bolt EUV

r0tor

No, it'd shipped in just like the leather wrapped version... To create a differently textured dash requires a large tooling investment.  To wrap a dash requires no such investment.
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

MrH

This is too funny. You know i just got off a big program that was completely wrapped? And you're going to tell me how it's made?
2023 Ford Lightning Lariat ER
2019 Acura RDX SH-AWD
2023 BRZ Limited

Previous: '02 Mazda Protege5, '08 Mazda Miata, '05 Toyota Tacoma, '09 Honda Element, '13 Subaru BRZ, '14 Hyundai Genesis R-Spec 5.0, '15 Toyota 4Runner SR5, '18 Honda Accord EX-L 2.0t, '01 Honda S2000, '20 Subaru Outback XT, '23 Chevy Bolt EUV

r0tor

Oh please enlighten me how hard it is to outsource leather wrapping on an existing dash piece to a vendor...
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

280Z Turbo

It would cost GM millions of dollars to make a new dash. It takes a long time to get the details right on fit, proper molding conditions, building a new line, training operators on new product, etc.

MrH

How do you expect eveythig to fit together if you add between 3-5 mm of spacer fabric and leather on top of everything? All the tooling has to be changed. The entire underlying substrate needs to be designed to be wrapped. That means off set ribs for the spacer fabric to sit in, ditches to hide the salvage material from the stitch lines. I've only seen one car use the same substrate for the wrapped and non wrapped version, and that took substantial rework. The only reason they did that was because it was such small volume, they couldn't justify the tooling, so they took a TON of time to rework each piece by hand before wrapping it.
2023 Ford Lightning Lariat ER
2019 Acura RDX SH-AWD
2023 BRZ Limited

Previous: '02 Mazda Protege5, '08 Mazda Miata, '05 Toyota Tacoma, '09 Honda Element, '13 Subaru BRZ, '14 Hyundai Genesis R-Spec 5.0, '15 Toyota 4Runner SR5, '18 Honda Accord EX-L 2.0t, '01 Honda S2000, '20 Subaru Outback XT, '23 Chevy Bolt EUV

r0tor

Quote from: 280Z Turbo on January 22, 2012, 05:47:56 PM
It would cost GM millions of dollars to make a new dash. It takes a long time to get the details right on fit, proper molding conditions, building a new line, training operators on new product, etc.

Then doing testing on the materials, durability, ect ect


Leather wrap investment is nilch by comparison.  I could have had the option on my jeep for a few grand.
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

280Z Turbo

Sure doesn't sound like it, but okay. Dig your heels in. :huh:

MrH

My post didn't warrant a response because you got caught with your pants down?

Just like I shouldn't argue with you about nuclear power plant maintenance, you shouldn't argue with me about the cost of car interiors. But I guess you're too prideful to admit you have no idea what you're talking about.
Quote from: r0tor on January 22, 2012, 05:50:09 PM
Then doing testing on the materials, durability, ect ect


Leather wrap investment is nilch by comparison.  I could have had the option on my jeep for a few grand.

On a much higher volume program, that was designed to have a leather wrapped option from the start...

And the corvette has a leather wrapped option :confused: what are you trying to prove by pointing out your car does too?

2023 Ford Lightning Lariat ER
2019 Acura RDX SH-AWD
2023 BRZ Limited

Previous: '02 Mazda Protege5, '08 Mazda Miata, '05 Toyota Tacoma, '09 Honda Element, '13 Subaru BRZ, '14 Hyundai Genesis R-Spec 5.0, '15 Toyota 4Runner SR5, '18 Honda Accord EX-L 2.0t, '01 Honda S2000, '20 Subaru Outback XT, '23 Chevy Bolt EUV

r0tor

Callaway sold a leather wrap option before GM.  I seriously doubt they redesigned anything on the dash to make it fit.  Some quick research on the Corvette forums shows the GM "leather" is paper thin and easily fits in the stock panel gaps. 
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

Lebowski

Quote from: r0tor on January 22, 2012, 06:21:33 PM

Callaway sold a leather wrap option before GM.


How much did that cost? 

r0tor

Not sure, buy apparently ds vettes sells most of what you need and is of much higher quality then the gm pieces
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

Raza

Quote from: MrH on January 22, 2012, 05:32:08 PM
Oh, and if you want to wrap something, that means totally different substrates. New tooling for all those pieces. You think you could wrap a standard dash with spacer fabric and leather, and expect everything to still fit together?

I've got a sewing machine and a cow.  I will wrap any dash in leather for $20.
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Quote from: the Teuton on October 05, 2009, 03:53:18 PMIt's impossible to argue with Raza. He wins. Period. End of discussion.

GoCougs

Quote from: r0tor on January 22, 2012, 05:27:05 PM
That's a nice upgrade requiring little to no investment... GM sends out some dashboards and panels to a supplier to stich up and then over charges the customer for it.  No tooling, training, or assembly line changes needed.

No offense, but you're digging your heels in out of complete ignorance. You have no idea how large-scale manufacturing works. It takes an immense amount of work to make the smallest of changes; let's say the design of the interior door release handle:

1.) Design reviews, which take into account all sorts of ergonomic rules and guidelines, and let's not forget fit, form, function, and cost.

2.) Prototypes are made of top 1-3 options, likely by the supplier. The prototypes are tested for anything from styling to function to durability.

3.) A final design is chosen and first articles are made; this is to judge anything from the accuracy of the mold tooling to the validation of material to qualification of the molding/stamping/manufacturing process.

4.) The automaker in turn designs and validates the manufacturing process to accommodate the new handle. This includes anything from operator training to logistics.

5.) The automaker puts the new part number into the system to be able to order it, receive it, replace it, and include it in the cost accounting of the product; ERP systems, CRM systems, logistics systems, etc.

6.) The automakers signs the contract, receives the new door handle, and put's it into production.

Not so easy, huh? Now wash, rinse, repeat for an entire interior. It's not an insurmountable task, and automakers (or any large scale manufacturer) have defined process for this, but it takes a lot of time and money ever for the simplest of changes. IT HAS TO BE RIGHT THE FIRST TIME.


MexicoCityM3

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