ZL1 Tests are coming in.

[r0tor]

I stand corrected then... I assumed that the zl1 was using the first gen stuff they have used elsewhere

[SVT666]

By Mark Kleis


The Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 was intended to be a brightly shining halo car for the brand and specifically for the line of Camaro pony cars ? but its thunder was first stolen by the horsepower-trumping 2013 Ford Shelby GT500, and now news of an apparent quality concern.

The latest figurative black eye for the car comes with the unfortunate news that would-be owners will have to wait a bit longer to take delivery, following an order from General Motors to stop the production and delivery of the car according to Motor Authority. The reason behind the halt? Well, GM isn?t exactly opening up on the issue, only pointing to a software programming issue.

So how long will the delay last?

Some of the folks at GMInsideNews did manage to procure a letter from GM headquarters, sent to dealers about the matter, which confirmed that the halt does not currently have a firm timeline but suggested it may be a few more weeks before production and sales can continue.

Considering how easily modern vehicles can have their computers re-flashed to a new software setting, this stop-sale and production halt seem to suggest either a more serious underlying problem, or a lack of an alternative software setting at this time. But as one unfortunate customer in Austin, Texas, found out out a dealer accidentally delivered him his vehicle, GM is serious enough about the actions that it requested the vehicle back from the owners.

[LonghornTX]

I think the ZL1 will likely get stomped by the new GT500 around a race track, at least in track times. Can't wait to see those comparison tests...

[Xer0]

I think the ZL1 will likely get stomped by the new GT500 around a race track, at least in track times. Can't wait to see those comparison tests...

I'm not so sure, at minimum I think it will be pretty close.  The GT500 has always been an underachiever considering its stats and the ZL1 seems to have a pretty trick suspension.  I agree, the comparisons should be interesting.

[Submariner]

I'm not very knowledgeable on track performance and whatnot, but in that shootout between the GTR and the ZL1, I was pretty shocked that despite having a huge speed disadvantage, the ZL1 wasn't much slower around the track.  It's an impressive car, for sure. 

[SVT666]

I think the ZL1 will likely get stomped by the new GT500 around a race track, at least in track times. Can't wait to see those comparison tests...

I don't know.  I was one of the first to say the GT500 would kill the ZL1 with the weight and power advantages, but with the way the ZL1 manhandled the Boss 302 Laguna Seca, I'm not so sure anymore.  The magneto shocks are fucking amazing and that's something Ford doesn't have.  I think the weight and power advantages will keep the GT500 neck and neck with the ZL1, but Ford will have to pull out all the the stops if they want to beat this car.

[hotrodalex]

I'm never concerned with a car being delayed a few weeks to fix a problem. That's better than not fixing it until customers have the cars. It's a non-issue to me.

As for how it'll compare to the GT500, I'd say it'll be about even. The Ford might have more HP, but it's suspension is much more important than it's power. Horsepower is useless if the chassis can't stick to the pavement enough to move. The Mustang has the better suspension in all other variants, but GM's not playing around with their fancy shocks. Can't wait for the first head-to-head comparo.

[SVT666]

I'm never concerned with a car being delayed a few weeks to fix a problem. That's better than not fixing it until customers have the cars. It's a non-issue to me.

They took a car back from a customer that had already been delivered.

[hotrodalex]

Oh, I didn't read the last sentence. Still not a huge deal, it's better that they got it fixed immediately. As long as it's fixed in a reasonable amount of time, I'd still be fine with it. At least you know GM is being honest about the issue and not letting people possibly destroy their cars.

[Vinsanity]

I wonder if offering the fancy shocks on the mere-mortal SS model would be a feasible idea...

[SVT666]

I wonder if offering the fancy shocks on the mere-mortal SS model would be a feasible idea...

I would think they could offer it as a "Track Package" for $4000 or so.  But that would really negate a lot of the reasons for buying the ZL1 though.

[GoCougs]

I think the ZL1 will likely get stomped by the new GT500 around a race track, at least in track times. Can't wait to see those comparison tests...

Not likely the new GT500 is a better track performer than the ZL1 - there's nothing in its history that suggest otherwise. The GT500 has always been a relatively poor performer all around - the Boss 302 was its equal in straight line acceleration and bested it on the track, and for less money, weight and complexity.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

I don't know.  I was one of the first to say the GT500 would kill the ZL1 with the weight and power advantages, but with the way the ZL1 manhandled the Boss 302 Laguna Seca, I'm not so sure anymore.  The magneto shocks are fucking amazing and that's something Ford doesn't have.  I think the weight and power advantages will keep the GT500 neck and neck with the ZL1, but Ford will have to pull out all the the stops if they want to beat this car.

[LonghornTX]

there's nothing in its history that suggest otherwise. The GT500 has always been a relatively poor performer all around - .

You should remember that the GT500 had been a relatively poor performer, until the 2011 model year (with the SVT pack). That model posts 1g on the skid pad and better 70-0 braking than the ZL1 (151 vs. 165 via C&D). Mind you, the new model also gets new 6-piston Brembos, Bilstein shocks, more down force in the front and rear and revised gearing, plus 100 extra HP.

The ZL1 with its advanced suspension may be easier to drive, but for a skilled driver I would imagine the GT500 will post better times around a track. In a straight line, it will probably put 1/2 a second on it in the quarter, all while getting better gas mileage and avoiding the gas guzzler. Plus it will have better visibility and a better driving position. Ever tried driving a Camaro hard? It sucks, because the car FEELS huge. That won't be any different with the ZL1.

[hotrodalex]

C&D Lightning Lap

GT500                           -     3:04.0
CTS-V                           -     3:04.0
Corvette Grand Sport       -     2:58.8
GT-R                             -     2:53.2

ZL1 looks like it fits in around the 2:55-2:56 mark, just going off of the limited information so far. That would mean a 9 second jump for the GT500. I'm sure it's possible, but I don't see it improving more than that. I still think the cars will be an even match for the most part.

[LonghornTX]

Ford has posted a 2:58:45 at VIR with the 2011 Gt500 SVTPP, so that time is extremely slow.

[GoCougs]

You should remember that the GT500 had been a relatively poor performer, until the 2011 model year (with the SVT pack). That model posts 1g on the skid pad and better 70-0 braking than the ZL1 (151 vs. 165 via C&D). Mind you, the new model also gets new 6-piston Brembos, Bilstein shocks, more down force in the front and rear and revised gearing, plus 100 extra HP.

The ZL1 with its advanced suspension may be easier to drive, but for a skilled driver I would imagine the GT500 will post better times around a track. In a straight line, it will probably put 1/2 a second on it in the quarter, all while getting better gas mileage and avoiding the gas guzzler. Plus it will have better visibility and a better driving position. Ever tried driving a Camaro hard? It sucks, because the car FEELS huge. That won't be any different with the ZL1.

Yet the Boss 302 LS matches if not outperforms the 2011 GT500 in all categories (and the ZL1 absolutely towered over the Boss 302 LS) which is but one of half a dozen things that speak to the fact that there is nothing in the GT500's history that suggest it will be a better track performer than the ZL1. It might be, but there is no rational basis for asserting the likelihood.

[GoCougs]

Googling says the ZL1 is posting ~2:52 times at VIR...

[hotrodalex]

Ford has posted a 2:58:45 at VIR with the 2011 Gt500 SVTPP, so that time is extremely slow.

Googling says the ZL1 is posting ~2:52 times at VIR...

Different drivers and track conditions lead to different times, so that's why I was estimating based off of C&D's testing.

[LonghornTX]

Yet the Boss 302 LS matches if not outperforms the 2011 GT500 in all categories (and the ZL1 absolutely towered over the Boss 302 LS)

On one track, in one magazine, with one driver. Take it to LS, where it was tuned and where the ridiculous HP advantage wouldn't matter as much and see what happens.

which is but one of half a dozen things that speak to the fact that there is nothing in the GT500's history that suggest it will be a better track performer than the ZL1. It might be, but there is no rational basis for asserting the likelihood.

Uh, did you read my previous post? What are the other half-dozen things? You realize I was only disproving your incorrect assumption that "the GT500 has always been a relatively poor performer all around". Like I said, it out-brakes the ZL1 from 70, or at least matches it (allowing for differences in conditions), posts the same skidpad, yet is going to gain all the things I mention above. I would say those speak to the opposite my friend. Plus HP is HP, it makes a difference on tracks (especially like those featured in this comparison) and ZL1 came with a knife to a gunfight.

I guess we will just have to see. Either way, it has never been a better time to like pony cars  

[LonghornTX]

Different drivers and track conditions lead to different times, so that's why I was estimating based off of C&D's testing.

Yea, but none of the times you posted before really hold any relevance, because the ZL1 wasn't included in those tests. You are superimposing data from a different session, on a different track. So I just did the same.

[GoCougs]

On one track, in one magazine, with one driver. Take it to LS, where it was tuned and where the ridiculous HP advantage wouldn't matter as much and see what happens.

The performance gap would likely be even wider; the ZL1's advantage in handling, braking, and all things chassis, and was larger than in acceleration.

Uh, did you read my previous post? What are the other half-dozen things? You realize I was only disproving your incorrect assumption that "the GT500 has always been a relatively poor performer all around". Like I said, it out-brakes the ZL1 from 70, or at least matches it (allowing for differences in conditions), posts the same skidpad, yet is going to gain all the things I mention above. I would say those speak to the opposite my friend. Plus HP is HP, it makes a difference on tracks (especially like those featured in this comparison) and ZL1 came with a knife to a gunfight.

I guess we will just have to see. Either way, it has never been a better time to like pony cars  

Half dozen things? The Boss 302 encompasses that many and more; a version of the Mustang that matches or outperforms the GT500 with less cost and complexity, and otherwise without any detriment. At most, the GT500 may have an advantage after 120 mph, but then again, the cars are limited to 155 mph. So, relatively speaking, the GT500 under performs (with previous iterations being starkly so).

There's WAY more to track performance than braking and skidpad numbers. I suggest a reread of the M/T comparison of the ZL1 vs. Boss 302 LS comparison. The ZL1 had a slight advantage in the stats but was the far better handler and driver; both in lap time and the subjective descriptions with which the article is replete.

[SVT666]

The performance gap would likely be even wider; the ZL1's advantage in handling, braking, and all things chassis, and was larger than in acceleration.

All things chassis?  No.  All things shocks.  Otherwise the Mustang has proven in many tests already it has the better chassis tuning.  Those shocks are incredible and I only wish Ford had something that good to use.

Half dozen things? The Boss 302 encompasses that many and more; a version of the Mustang that matches or outperforms the GT500 with less cost and complexity, and otherwise without any detriment. At most, the GT500 may have an advantage after 120 mph, but then again, the cars are limited to 155 mph. So, relatively speaking, the GT500 under performs (with previous iterations being starkly so).

Who's cars are limited to 155mph?  The new GT500 tops 202 mph.  The current one is ~180 mph.  The convertible is limited to 155, but the coupe isn't.

[LonghornTX]

The performance gap would likely be even wider; the ZL1's advantage in handling, braking, and all things chassis, and was larger than in acceleration.

I would disagree, considering that it was specifically tuned using that track. Different tracks suit different types of cars.

Half dozen things? The Boss 302 encompasses that many and more; a version of the Mustang that matches or outperforms the GT500 with less cost and complexity, and otherwise without any detriment. At most, the GT500 may have an advantage after 120 mph, but then again, the cars are limited to 155 mph. So, relatively speaking, the GT500 under performs (with previous iterations being starkly so).

What are you talking about? The GT500 is designed with a different purpose than the Boss. Even then, it still puts about 4 seconds on the LS around VIR. Just admit it, your previous comment was ignorant to what a 2011 SVTPP car is capable of.

There's WAY more to track performance than braking and skidpad numbers. I suggest a reread of the M/T comparison of the ZL1 vs. Boss 302 LS comparison. The ZL1 had a slight advantage in the stats but was the far better handler and driver; both in lap time and the subjective descriptions with which the article is replete.

I read the article, and yes they definitely preferred the ZL1 (though the LS generated more grip on average than the ZL1). It seems easier to drive for sure, but you're an idiot if you don't think a ~140hp deficit is a part of the ~2.5 second gap between the two. The LS definitely had weaker brakes, but the new GT500 is getting brand new 6-piston Brembos, so I doubt it will have much trouble maintaining its braking advantage over the ZL1 (as noted previously).

But, at this point, this is just magazine racing, because the GT500 is not even out yet.

[GoCougs]

Nah, no ignorance, only data, information and knowledge. To say the ZL1 puts a hurt on the Boss 302 LS or the '11 GT500 doesn't say the latter cars are bad, as you Mustangists often take such comments for. It simply says the ZL1 is the better performing car. Will the new GT500 perform better, or up to or surpassing the ZL1? Only time will tell.

[Schadenfreude]

I wonder if offering the fancy shocks on the mere-mortal SS model would be a feasible idea...

It's doable, but would the accountants okay it? Not likely unless a premium is charged for it. And if you're going to do that, you might as well upgrade the entire suspension to make it worth the cost. (Sway bars, bushings, etc).

[Vinsanity]

It's doable, but would the accountants okay it? Not likely unless a premium is charged for it. And if you're going to do that, you might as well upgrade the entire suspension to make it worth the cost. (Sway bars, bushings, etc).

Yup, that's what I had in mind. I figure $40k for a 2SS with fancy magneto shocks and accompanying suspension upgrades would be pretty reasonable.

I would think they could offer it as a "Track Package" for $4000 or so.  But that would really negate a lot of the reasons for buying the ZL1 though.

That would be the main problem I see. A Camaro SS Track Package would make a lot of people realize how silly a 580-hp street car is.

[68_427]

There is a new FE4 suspension package for the SS. Supposed to cure the understeer.

[SVT666]

Motor Trend's ZL1 vs. Boss 302 Laguna Seca comparo.  The ZL1 only gained 0.4 tenths of a second on the straights.  The other 2 seconds was made up in the corners.  Those magneto shocks are mindblowing.  I wish Ford had them too.  Since I would never drive these cars to the limit on a track, I would still take the Boss 302 based purely on the exhaust note.  Watch the video to hear this thing.

[LonghornTX]

Motor Trend's ZL1 vs. Boss 302 Laguna Seca comparo.  The ZL1 only gained 0.4 tenths of a second on the straights.  The other 2 seconds was made up in the corners.  Those magneto shocks are mindblowing.  I wish Ford had them too.  Since I would never drive these cars to the limit on a track, I would still take the Boss 302 based purely on the exhaust note.  Watch the video to hear this thing.

Listening to the video, it sounds like most of the difference was made up in the braking zones. Randy had no good things to say about the LS's brakes