2014 BMW M3 Preview

[GoCougs]

Well, I'll call him out on it.  He's lying.

But of course; the truth is inconvenient when you're all wrapped up in a Reality of One.

[MX793]

I'll be 40 in the summer. Started with my parents' '70s Chevy truck as a teen, and then moved onto a Dodge Power Wagon, Dodge Ramcharger, and Toyota Tacoma. So, rethinking it, 400,000 miles may be a bit much, but definitely at least 300,000 miles behind the wheel of 4WD/AWD vehicles.

Cruising down the highway with the transfer case set to 2WD doesn't really count as 4WD experience.  That's no different than driving the 2WD version of the same truck.  4WD experience implies actually having 4WD engaged and in use.

[SVT666]

Told you he was lying.

[sportyaccordy]

Of course you don't buy it; you've never owned such a vehicle and otherwise are prone to attacking positions you can't materially weigh in on

I have a good amount of time behind the wheel of AWD cars. Plus in any case this is a deflection; that you have so much experience + a technical background only exacerbates your misunderstandings of the role of drive wheels and traction.

Slush box and open diffs is irrelevant; what is relevant is the center diff. EBD is an approximation; when F&R axles are mechanically linked there is none.

How is the slushbox + open diff irrelevant? The very term slushbox speaks to the disconnect from the engine and the drive wheels. When you're not accelerating the transmission is either slushing between gears or defaulted to the lowest gear. So the center diff is irrelevant. And the center diff is often open too.

So then should I return the favor and make fun of you for not even actually owning a car?

I fail to see how less experience is a sufficient proxy for more experience.

Congrats on your strawman

Based on what I see on the 'SPIN, I have the most 4WD experience than anyone on here save for maybe Rupert; by my estimate ~400,000 miles.

Again with all those miles + your background your lack of understanding is that much more glaring

Can AWD help? Of course, if it's set up right, but most systems aren't.

But engine braking is pretty much nonexistent in a slushbox car in snow-appropriate speeds, and to add to that many modern cars have electronic brake distribution. So AWD generally has no impact on braking in the cars + conditions we're talking about.

And again, 1 a whole lot of factors come into play in how a car turns in the snow before drive wheels, and 2 who the hell is gassing it in the middle of a turn in the snow anyway? Which comes back to the fact that in a slushbox car the engine is essentially disconnected from the drive wheels while coasting, again removing drive wheels from the equation.

Plus lol @ your experience, didn't you just spend x amount of years using a FWD car to head up mountain passes? Your own experience shows it doesn't matter.

[GoCougs]

Oh, wow, sporty, that post is right up there with torque vs. horsepower. By that post alone you've shown you don't know a slushie AT works, you don't know how AWD systems work, you don't know how AWD/4WD systems drive, plus, only those talking "engine braking" are those who don't know how these things work.

[GoCougs]

Cruising down the highway with the transfer case set to 2WD doesn't really count as 4WD experience.  That's no different than driving the 2WD version of the same truck.  4WD experience implies actually having 4WD engaged and in use.

And if many of those miles were in permanent 4WD vehicles? That aside, a 4WD vehicle is a 4WD vehicle.

Also remember those with similar experience/vehicles are more or less agreeing with me, on the major advantage AWD/4WD has in inclement weather.

[GoCougs]

This 'argument' is ridiculous. If you disagree that AWD/4WD isn't at least a major advantage in inclement weather you are SO on the side of wrong.

[GoCougs]

Told you he was lying.

Wow, my buying that G37x really turned your world on its ear didn't it?

The wind has been sucked from your sails now that your (and sporty's) 'but you drive an Accord LOLz so yer an unenthusiast and don't know anything' battle cry has been rendered null and void. (That it was irrational and illogical to begin with being irrelevant here.)

[sportyaccordy]

Oh, wow, sporty, that post is right up there with torque vs. horsepower. By that post alone you've shown you don't know a slushie AT works, you don't know how AWD systems work, you don't know how AWD/4WD systems drive, plus, only those talking "engine braking" are those who don't know how these things work.

How am I wrong?

[GoCougs]

How am I wrong?

First, slushbox + open diff is irrelevant to my point in that the advantage comes from mechanical brake distribution from the action of the brakes.

Second, "slushbox speaks to the disconnect" is not a true statement. If the AT pump is running (driving off the engine), the engine and AT are very much connected.

[sportyaccordy]

What does brake distribution have to do with drive wheels, and what does the engine powering the slush pressure have to do with the drive wheels? Just because a car is in gear doesn't mean the engine is moving it

[SVT666]

Wow, my buying that G37x really turned your world on its ear didn't it?

The wind has been sucked from your sails now that your (and sporty's) 'but you drive an Accord LOLz so yer an unenthusiast and don't know anything' battle cry has been rendered null and void. (That it was irrational and illogical to begin with being irrelevant here.)

Naw.  It's because you're a chronic liar.  It doesn't matter what we're talking about, you have "experience" with it.  Not just a little "experience" either, but more "experience" than anyone else on this forum.  You're a liar man.  I bet you couldn't tell the truth about something if there was a gun to your head.

[Cookie Monster]

First, slushbox + open diff is irrelevant to my point in that the advantage comes from mechanical brake distribution from the action of the brakes.

Second, "slushbox speaks to the disconnect" is not a true statement. If the AT pump is running (driving off the engine), the engine and AT are very much connected.

If you could provide an article describing technically how a 4WD system controls the wheels in off-power situations, I'd be very much interested.

I've always viewed 4WD in snow as a band-aid for those who can't drive or are over-confident in their abilities. 90% of the crashes I've seen in the snow are 4WD trucks and SUV's or Subarus because the drivers were always going far too fast for the conditions.

My dad made it ~14 years in crazy snow conditions, and not one of his vehicles ever had AWD/4WD. In fact he said the only times he's gotten stuck in snow was when there was too much snow and not enough ground clearance.

[GoCougs]

What does brake distribution have to do with drive wheels, and what does the engine powering the slush pressure have to do with the drive wheels? Just because a car is in gear doesn't mean the engine is moving it

Take an old-school 4wd vehicle, put it into 2wd, and drive it on the ice/snow, and play around with braking, especially in maneuvers that transfer weight (braking turns). One axle (the rear) will typically lock up first, obviously causing braking issues (controllability, stopping distances). Now take that same vehicle and put it into 4wd; it is now harder to lockup up the brakes because the rears can't lock without the fronts locking as well (and vice versa) because the two axles are linked by the drivetrain. Since it is harder the lock up the brakes the brakes will perform better (better controllability, stopping distances).

Like I stated, if a slushie is in gear and the engine is on, the engine and drive train (drive wheels) are connected, which is quite different than what you stated:

The very term slushbox speaks to the disconnect from the engine and the drive wheels. When you're not accelerating the transmission is either slushing between gears or defaulted to the lowest gear.

[GoCougs]

Naw.  It's because you're a chronic liar.  It doesn't matter what we're talking about, you have "experience" with it.  Not just a little "experience" either, but more "experience" than anyone else on this forum.  You're a liar man.  I bet you couldn't tell the truth about something if there was a gun to your head.

What else have I lied about?

[Eye of the Tiger]

What does brake distribution have to do with drive wheels, and what does the engine powering the slush pressure have to do with the drive wheels? Just because a car is in gear doesn't mean the engine is moving it

Torque converter crawl!!!!!!!

What else have I lied about?

Your massive Internetery. It's pretty small.

[GoCougs]

If you could provide an article describing technically how a 4WD system controls the wheels in off-power situations, I'd be very much interested.

I've always viewed 4WD in snow as a band-aid for those who can't drive or are over-confident in their abilities. 90% of the crashes I've seen in the snow are 4WD trucks and SUV's or Subarus because the drivers were always going far too fast for the conditions.

My dad made it ~14 years in crazy snow conditions, and not one of his vehicles ever had AWD/4WD. In fact he said the only times he's gotten stuck in snow was when there was too much snow and not enough ground clearance.

See the above recommended experiment.

Sure AWD/4WD can be a band aid for some, and a poorly wielded one at that, but my experience says otherwise, as does spending time where there is a LOT of snow. And also as noted, even the areas I drive, snow tires and/or chains/AWD are legal suggestions or requirements, depending on the day.

[LonghornTX]

This 'argument' is ridiculous. If you disagree that AWD/4WD isn't at least a major advantage in inclement weather you are SO on the side of wrong.

I think the point people have with you is your statement that AWD/4WD helps with braking and off-power cornering. To be honest, that statement perked my ears too, because I have always read that those systems really only make a difference when power is applied. Seemingly still a big advantage, but nothing that would affect simply going around a corner or coming to a stop sign.

Then again, that is just my interpretation of what you said, and to be honest, my knowledge is only based on reading and an understanding of basic engineering/physics concepts, not real world experience. I have driven in snow maybe six times my entire life and have only owned RWD vehicles, since snow is generally not a big deal in TX

[GoCougs]

I think the point people have with you is your statement that AWD/4WD helps with braking and and off-power cornering. To be honest, that statement perked my ears too, because I have always read that those systems really only make a difference when power is applied. Seemingly still a big advantage, but nothing that would affect simply going around a corner or coming to a stop sign.

Then again, that is just my interpretation of what you said, and to be honest, my knowledge is only based on reading and an understanding of basic engineering/physics concepts, not real world experience. I have driven in snow maybe six times my entire life and have only owned RWD vehicles, since snow is generally not a big deal in TX

See the above recommended experiment. The issue is modern 4WD/AWD vehicles will mask the illustrative points of that experiment, through various means. Just because they're masked however doesn't mean the illustrative points aren't in play.

[850CSi]

[Raza]

I'm not calling you on it, just bouncing the numbers in my head and that works out to a ton of driving unless I'm way off on how old you are.

I think he's 15.

[Eye of the Tiger]

I think he's 15.

I was going to say 13. A very smart, very bored, very annoying 13 year old, possibly confined to a bubble in his parents' basememt, due to some autoimmune disorder.

[SVT666]

What else have I lied about?

So you're admitting that you lied about this?  Thank you.  For once some honesty.

[S204STi]

What does brake distribution have to do with drive wheels, and what does the engine powering the slush pressure have to do with the drive wheels? Just because a car is in gear doesn't mean the engine is moving it

It is always acting on the driven wheels though, either by applying power or engine braking.  Even automatic transmission cars utilize it.

My contention though is that the amount of lockup between sides is dependent on the type of differential and whether it acts in one way or both, and at that point I suspect that suspension tuning and tires have a bigger say in the matter during decel than the powertrain.

[GoCougs]

So you're admitting that you lied about this?  Thank you.  For once some honesty.

What else have I lied about?

[omicron]

This is a marvellous thread.

[GoCougs]

And to think I've lied my whole way through it!

[hounddog]

This is a marvellous thread.

One of the reasons I cannot break away from Carspin is the total, and quite frequent, 'jacking of any thread, at any time, with little or no warning. 

Only here can a thread about the new M3 be turned it into yet another lengthy and exhausting...thing. 

Score a win for the 'Spin! 

[MrH]

Who the hell is trail braking a truck while it's in 2WD, in the snow nonetheless?

[hounddog]

Who the hell is trail braking a truck while it's in 2WD, in the snow nonetheless?

What?  Its fun.