Interesting counterpoint on the ATS

[hotrodalex]

Ha, ha, you're terrible at this - you don't stand a chance. 

You seem to do a lot more talking about winning than actually winning.

[GoCougs]

You seem to do a lot more talking about winning than actually winning.

No one mentioned "winning" in any context; his Internetry is just terrible.

[Rupert]

I can't even bear to read all this, but I can guarantee that at this point in the game, no one is right.

[hotrodalex]

No one mentioned "winning" in any context; his Internetry is just terrible.

You don't specifically mention it, but it's inferred. You said "you don't stand a chance", pointing to the fact that you think you're winning. Thing is, that's all you seem to do. You say you're winning, but you have no subsistence behind it. If I'm going to read your posts, at least make them worthwhile and provide a real counterpoint other than "my internetry is awesome and yours sucks".

[LonghornTX]

This thread = FAIL

[MrH]

Speaking of fail...

GM wants this to sell 60K. If it sells half that I will be surprised.

And how have I been a douche? I haven't insulted anybody, I haven't made any personal attacks, I haven't made any psychological inferences, I haven't twisted around anything anyone has said. But everyone who disagrees with me has. Rather than call me a douche, why not explain how I'm wrong?

Somebody grab a fork and knife, time for sporty to eat his humble pie:



Production forecast for the ATS from a giant third party analytics company that a ton in the industry use.  They're usually pretty spot on (closer than the OEMs predict for their own programs at least).

You have no idea what you're talking about.

[sportyaccordy]

We'll see

[MrH]

We'll see

You spend 17 pages trying to argue your point, and it all hinged on your baseless opinion?  Nothing more than just a gut feeling that's how the industry was going to go?

If you want me to post forecasts on how that market is still expanding, I can do that too...

[sportyaccordy]

You spend 17 pages trying to argue your point, and it all hinged on your baseless opinion?  Nothing more than just a gut feeling that's how the industry was going to go?

If you want me to post forecasts on how that market is still expanding, I can do that too...

Post them

Like I said, I was basing my POV on the idea that I didn't see anywhere for the market to go. 3 series sales are flat after you account for the "new model" swell. Same w/C Class and the A4. Plus they are hoping this will generate volume in Europe which was flat during a global economic boom and is entering into a crisis... a crisis that will cascade onto our economy as well. So it wasn't just a "gut feeling".

So yes, post the projections as well as projections of cars from the past  (so we can validate the prediction's accuracy), and feel free to gloat + be a dick about it as that adds to the discussion. You will at least be the first person to post some hard evidence that we can talk about.

[2o6]

You haven't posted much evidence, either. You pretty much said the car was going to fail because essentially you don't like it.

[MrH]

Post them

Like I said, I was basing my POV on the idea that I didn't see anywhere for the market to go. 3 series sales are flat after you account for the "new model" swell. Same w/C Class and the A4. Plus they are hoping this will generate volume in Europe which was flat during a global economic boom and is entering into a crisis... a crisis that will cascade onto our economy as well. So it wasn't just a "gut feeling".

So yes, post the projections as well as projections of cars from the past  (so we can validate the prediction's accuracy), and feel free to gloat + be a dick about it as that adds to the discussion. You will at least be the first person to post some hard evidence that we can talk about.

I'll post some more tomorrow when I get a chance.

If you don't like my gloating, stop being wrong so much .  Problem solved.  You're the one who came to the table making claims based on zero evidence.

And you're going to say your opinion has any validity to it, when tons of analysts you get paid to do this disagree?

[sportyaccordy]

You haven't posted much evidence, either. You pretty much said the car was going to fail because essentially you don't like it.

I never said I don't like the car.

I'll post some more tomorrow when I get a chance.

If you don't like my gloating, stop being wrong so much .  Problem solved.  You're the one who came to the table making claims based on zero evidence.

And you're going to say your opinion has any validity to it, when tons of analysts you get paid to do this disagree?

My stance is based on more than my opinion. Like I said and have been asking for, post the evidence.

Not to mention, obviously these folks know a lot more than I do, but to say they've never been wrong? Did they see the economic crash coming? Did they see the spike in gas prices? How much stock can you really put into a prediction of car sales 12 years from now?

So yes I would love to see their old predictions and compare them to how things actually panned out. If they are as on point as you say then I will gladly eat my hat.

[MrH]

So the burden of proof is always on everyone else, but not yourself?  Even though you're the one making ridiculous claims?  And you're going to try and pick apart my source before ever providing any evidence to support your claim?

[sportyaccordy]

So the burden of proof is always on everyone else, but not yourself?  Even though you're the one making ridiculous claims?  And you're going to try and pick apart my source before ever providing any evidence to support your claim?

What specific info do you want? 3 series sales? Euro Area's decade of lackluster growth? Do I have to post a link to say the G8, GTO and STS failed?

And you are the one who offered the evidence + claim the analysts are "usually pretty spot on (closer than the OEMs predict for their own programs at least)." Can you post their old forecasts for the X-Type? STS? Galant? You claim they are spot on, all I asked was to see that. I already provided the background info for my reasoning. If you don't agree that's one thing, but don't lie and say I didn't post anything.

[GoCougs]

You don't specifically mention it, but it's inferred. You said "you don't stand a chance", pointing to the fact that you think you're winning. Thing is, that's all you seem to do. You say you're winning, but you have no subsistence behind it. If I'm going to read your posts, at least make them worthwhile and provide a real counterpoint other than "my internetry is awesome and yours sucks".

Please stop with the strawmanism - after "all these years" of absence his Internetry didn't stand a chance of fulfilling his aim.

[SVT666]

Bullshit.  You were predicting victory for yourself. 

[GoCougs]

Bullshit.  You were predicting victory for yourself. 

Predicting?

[68_427]

Base model ATS.  Base rims look pretty decent.  I can't tell you how many 325/8 I see with like 16in rims and they look awful.

[GoCougs]

Uh, not digging that - the wheel + well looks too small especially the rear...

[Vinsanity]

Base model ATS.  Base rims look pretty decent.  I can't tell you how many 325/8 I see with like 16in rims and they look awful.

You wanna see awful? I should show you the 16" factory rims that came on my car when I first bought it. Yechh.

[sportyaccordy]

Man that is a lot of metal between that back wheel and the window. And that communist state issue house gray is not doing the body any favors... need moar

[Raza]

RL, Q45, Lincoln LS, Catera, STS, X-Type, Phaeton (to a lesser degree)

The 3er segment is crowded as fuck, throwing a hat in the ring is pointless + unnecessary. I don't know what car they should have made instead but the ATS was not it, no matter how good it may be.

Cadillac follows the 3/5/7 structure (CTS/STS/DTS or whatever) and is adding a smaller car now (like the 1 series).  Lincoln follows it as well.  I was under the assumption that Jaguar was planning an X-Type replacement too, but that may not be happening.

It's true about Infiniti though.  They're essentially an SUV maker and not a luxury car group anymore.  I didn't even know they dropped the Q45.

Acura and Volkswagen are not luxury makes.

[Raza]

I'm sorry, why are judgments being made about the car before anyone has driven it? Does that make sense?

Whoa!  Still kicking, eh?

[sportyaccordy]

Cadillac follows the 3/5/7 structure (CTS/STS/DTS or whatever) and is adding a smaller car now (like the 1 series).  Lincoln follows it as well.  I was under the assumption that Jaguar was planning an X-Type replacement too, but that may not be happening.

It's true about Infiniti though.  They're essentially an SUV maker and not a luxury car group anymore.  I didn't even know they dropped the Q45.

Acura and Volkswagen are not luxury makes.

Can you really call any Lincoln competitive with any German car

Lets be serious

And Chrysler doesn't follow that structure either (though I am not even sure you can call them a luxury brand)

[Raza]

Can you really call any Lincoln competitive with any German car

Lets be serious

And Chrysler doesn't follow that structure either (though I am not even sure you can call them a luxury brand)

I didn't say they were competitive, I said they follow the same structure.  And Chrysler is most definitely not a luxury brand. 

[CALL_911]

They're essentially an SUV maker and not a luxury car group anymore.

wat

[Submariner]

I saw/sat in an XTS today.  I'll save a full review for when I have time, but my most immediate thoughts are:

- It's not as ill proportioned as I thought it would be.  Pictures led me to believe it would suffer from the same bloat that the Lincoln MKS does, and that the super short nose would look silly.  From the side, it's not too bad, but looking at it from the front 3/4ths isn't terribly flattering.  The same goes for the rear.  It was, however, better than expected.  I suspect the smallish, cheap looking wheels took away from the overall effect.  The 20's I've seen in press photos look much better.

- The interior isn't that special once you get past the center stack and the TFT instrument cluster.  Everything at eye level - air vents, center console, the dash, door pulls, etc look and feel great, but it's evident they cheeped out on everything below your thighs.  It's almost as if they went to Gucci for  the top half, and Ikea for the bottom.  The seats just felt weird, they could use a few extra inches of padding all around, and the seat controls felt like they came straight out of an old TrailBlazer.  Other details bothered me too.  The hooks for the rear sunshades, for example, were a cheap and visible blemish on the doors, and the overhead console looked and felt second rate.

It's frustrating to see, really.  It's like they spent countless hours getting the big details right (the overall design, the slick infotainment system, etc) then got lazy and said "to hell with it" when faced with designing the small things.  It's what puts the Germans, English and Japanese in a class above this - they get it all right, not just the big details.

Is it a bad car?  Not at all, and FWIW, I didn't drive it, but it was a mixture of fantastic visual stimuli and numerous, small letdowns.  I may be able to drive one next week, so I'll post a more extensive review then.  

[sportyaccordy]

Looking forward to that. Shame they cheaped out to the point you can detect it. They need these cars to be winners.

[2o6]

The "English"?

[AltinD]

The "English"?

Should he have said the Indians and Germans instead?