New BMW Consumer Research indicates that...

[Raza]

I definitely can. I don't feel like I'd be missing out on not having a FWD car.

You would be.  Like I said, each platform has a different experience to offer.  I've been lucky enough to have owned two great FWD cars and never thought "Oh man, I wish this car were RWD". 

Actually, I'd wager that my Jetta handled better than a fair few comparable RWD cars (I won't trot out the corpse of the Grand Marquis, but I would put the Jetta against a Lexus IS250 or a Mercedes C300). 

[850CSi]

Actually, I'd wager that my Jetta handled better than a fair few comparable RWD cars (I won't trot out the corpse of the Grand Marquis, but I would put the Jetta against a Lexus IS250 or a Mercedes C300). 

Which generation IS are we talking about...

[cawimmer430]

The rear passenger section of my 1er. I use the rear footwells for storage. 

[Vinsanity]

You would be.  Like I said, each platform has a different experience to offer.  I've been lucky enough to have owned two great FWD cars and never thought "Oh man, I wish this car were RWD". 

Actually, I'd wager that my Jetta handled better than a fair few comparable RWD cars (I won't trot out the corpse of the Grand Marquis, but I would put the Jetta against a Lexus IS250 or a Mercedes C300). 

I honestly don't think I would care if I never drove a FWD car again.

[Onslaught]

100% of BMW owners are idiots.



Not really, I'm just picking on you know who.

[TurboDan]

RWD in a compact car like a 1-Series 5-Door doesn't make much sense, especially when all other cars in its class are FWD and offer a roomier interior due to that. One of the biggest complaints regarding the 1-Series is the lack of rear passenger leg room and the small fuel tank. A FWD layout would increase rear leg space and possibly even allow for a larger fuel tank. I'm not sure you've seen the width and height of the transmission tunnel inside a 1-Series but it's huge (bigger than the one in my parents RWD Mercedes E350 CGI!!!).

I can see the argument for it in a 1-Series Coupe, Mazda MX-5, Subaru BRZ, Nissan 370Z and such because these cars aren't really bought with practicality in mind (aka "transporting people around").

You're making my argument for me. The 1er, in North America, is not bought with practicality in mind. BMW might increase Euro appeal but it will not increase the appeal of this car to NA markets with this change.

Do people even cross-shop a 1er with a BRZ?

They're both small, sporty, well-handling cars. I don't think they're meant to be cross-shopped, but I'm sure they will be. BRZs and 1ers will both be secondary, fun cars for a lot of people.

I disagree.

In current European tests, the 1er always shines in the dynamic/handling department. And that's it. The FWD cars in its class beat it in other criteria in part due to their FWD layout.

The few people buying a 1er because it is RWD aren't enough compared to the people who buy it for other reasons and don't care about which wheels are powered. Those that want RWD can always upgrade to a 3-Series or buy a used 1st or 2nd generation 1-Series.

No, not everyone can afford a 3er. And some people want a new car or a low mileage lease. These people will now go elsewhere. I'm not a purist for RWD (my Saab and VW were both FWD, both handled well and I liked them both) but I think the lack of RWD will take something away from the 1er. BMW shouldn't concern itself with making "practical" cars. It should be the ultimate driving machine, not the ultimate rear-seat-passenger-sitting machine.

[Raza]

Which generation IS are we talking about...

2nd gen. 

[sportyaccordy]

Fun to drive is fun to drive. The hallmark of a good driver's car = nothing about it sticks out in a bad way. You dont need FWD or RWD to achieve that.

[Raza]

Fun to drive is fun to drive. The hallmark of a good driver's car = nothing about it sticks out in a bad way. You dont need FWD or RWD to achieve that.

Agreed.

[Madman]

The answer to this conundrum can be summed up in one word:

Triumph.

BMW owns the rights to the Triumph brand.  Resurrecting it will solve two problems BMW currently has.

Problem 1:  BMW is (rightfully) concerned about diluting it's image as The Ultimate Driving Machine.  Since RWD makes absolutely no sense for anything smaller than a 3 Series, a range of FWD Triumphs will preserve BMW sporting image and help the company expand into new market segments without over-stretching the credibility of the BMW brand.

Problem 2:  BMW can't go on churning out even bigger and more ridiculous variations of the MINI design theme.  Customers are already getting confused about the differences between the mini-MINI and the not-so-mini-MINI and the other MINI with no back seat.  Triumph would help bridge the gap between a single MINI model and the larger, more expensive BMWs.

Triumph would solve both problems.  They could be sporty FWD hatches and sedans and can even be RWD when necessary, such as a Mazda MX5-like two seat roadster.  BMWs can remain RWD and MINI can stop embarrassing itself and go back to being a single niche model.

[sportyaccordy]

There is already a Triumph brand specializing in three cylinder vehicles

I say as long as folks are stupid enough to keep jumping on every niche they should milk it for all its worth.

Truthfully every "misstep" by BMW can be explained either by stupidhead regulation or a legitimate niche/market

X5 = Americans don't buy wagons
X5M = oligarchs begged for it
X6 = Ranges are too stodgy, no Aston or Jaguar SUV yet
5GT = 5 series too boring, no 5 series wagon, cant afford X5/6
FWD 1 = "urban" brand whores
Turbo motors = stupidhead Euro + Cali standards
Mini everything = see FWD 1

Costs them nothing to develop and apparently tooling is cheap enough to support these relatively low sheetmetal changes.... I cant knock Bimmer at all, esp since ultimately I would never buy the cars I want them to build new

[850CSi]

2nd gen. 

Yeah that doesn't surprise me.

[cawimmer430]

You're making my argument for me. The 1er, in North America, is not bought with practicality in mind. BMW might increase Euro appeal but it will not increase the appeal of this car to NA markets with this change.

It seems to me that most Americans are already ignoring the 1-Series in favor of a 3-Series (pay a bit more, get a bigger car with the BMW badge).

Like I said, I can see the reason for a 1-Series Coupe/Convertible being RWD - those backseats aren't going to be used much at all. But in the 1er 5-Door Hatch (my car) RWD makes absolutely zero sense as it robs the car of so much cabin space.

They're both small, sporty, well-handling cars. I don't think they're meant to be cross-shopped, but I'm sure they will be. BRZs and 1ers will both be secondary, fun cars for a lot of people.

The BRZ will sell in higher numbers anyway because it is better value and thus appeals to a broader crowd. I don't even think they're cross-shopped as the MX-5 and BRZ seem to be in the same price class.

What does the BMW 1er compete with in the US? The RWD Hyundai Genesis Coupe and Nissan 370Z among other choices?

No, not everyone can afford a 3er. And some people want a new car or a low mileage lease. These people will now go elsewhere. I'm not a purist for RWD (my Saab and VW were both FWD, both handled well and I liked them both) but I think the lack of RWD will take something away from the 1er. BMW shouldn't concern itself with making "practical" cars. It should be the ultimate driving machine, not the ultimate rear-seat-passenger-sitting machine.

The problem is that more people are being able to afford BMWs in emerging markets and in other countries as their financial standards improve. THEY WANT A BMW. BMW has to target these people. It makes sense from a business point of view. And it also makes sense to make a small compact car FWD because of the proven benefits of this layout. Enthusiasts will whine about the loss of RWD in such cars but the MAJORITY of buyers won't care (and realize that FWD in a compact is more desirable than RWD). And in the environment of these people, space is an issue. Chinese, Indian, Japanese and European cities are car-hostile in terms of parking spaces. Small cars are appealing because of this and a small car is best engineered with a FWD layout to maximize overall practicality (which include transporting people in the back). 

Most Alfa Romeo fans got over the switch from RWD to FWD. And this is a brand that was known as the Italian BMW. Their entire lineup was RWD and now it is 99% FWD (except for the 8C). In BMWs case, only the cars below the 3-Series (and the facelifted X1/X3) will receive a FWD layout giving their fans plenty of RWD cars to choose from.

[Laconian]

I don't think Alfa should be looked to as a role model?

[cawimmer430]

I don't think Alfa should be looked to as a role model?

In the post-World War II period Alfa Romeo and BMW were seen as very similar brands. Sport sedans/coupes with emphasis on RWD and 50-50 weight balance.

[Laconian]

And now Alfa is now kind of a has-been, no?

[cawimmer430]

And now Alfa is now kind of a has-been, no?

They polarize people with nice designs.

But yeah, their driving experience isn't what it used to be. But it's not all due to a switch to FWD. Crappy Opel engines, crappy soft suspensions and more have a lot to answer for.

A FWD BMW won't have those problems.

[sportyaccordy]

In the post-World War II period Alfa Romeo and BMW were seen as very similar brands. Sport sedans/coupes with emphasis on RWD and 50-50 weight balance.

That was over 40 years ago. Alfa has since failed where BMW has succeeded, it would make no sense for BMW to emulate Alfa at this point. And you just started the thread by saying BMW customers don't care about RWD

[MX793]

And now Alfa is now kind of a has-been, no?

They also gave up on RWD and shifted towards FWD cars.  They've produced 1 RWD model in the past 15 years, and that was an exotic sports car (8C).  Their last "mainstream" RWD car was probably the Spider mkIV, which was discontinued 19 years ago.  Or the 75/Milano sedan, which was discontinued 20 years ago.

Of course, their horrible reliability probably had as much to do with their demise as their shift from RWD to FWD.

[850CSi]

It seems to me that most Americans are already ignoring the 1-Series in favor of a 3-Series (pay a bit more, get a bigger car with the BMW badge).

I don't really get the 1-Series (as it exists in the NA market). I've driven both a 120i 5-door in Europe and a 128i coupe here. It does almost nothing better than my car. The 128iA was ever so slightly more tossable, but it had a sport suspension and my car doesn't. It's only 50lbs lighter, I don't think it's appreciably better on gas, and it isn't that much cheaper. *shrug*

[Laconian]

The 1 series isn't much lighter, not much less expensive, has a teeny back seat and is awkwardly proportioned compared to the 3-series. I don't really get it.

[850CSi]

The 1 series isn't much lighter, not much less expensive, has a teeny back seat and is awkwardly proportioned compared to the 3-series. I don't really get it.

Yeah. I would say that I'll limit my critique to our market. If I lived in Europe, I would almost certainly drive a 120d. Wonderful car, just not as good as mine in any way other than gas mileage.

[cawimmer430]

And you just started the thread by saying BMW customers don't care about RWD

I quoted a BMW-sponsored study.

This study means that the majority of customers don't care if the car is RWD or FWD. It's not an issue to them.

There are still many people who will demand RWD, but they'll have to look elsewhere in the BMW range for that. Besides, if Americans don't like the the future 1er (they don't even like the current 1er), then it won't be a problem since they'll most likely got for a 3er or higher and those cars are RWD/AWD.

[cawimmer430]

I don't really get the 1-Series (as it exists in the NA market). I've driven both a 120i 5-door in Europe and a 128i coupe here. It does almost nothing better than my car. The 128iA was ever so slightly more tossable, but it had a sport suspension and my car doesn't. It's only 50lbs lighter, I don't think it's appreciably better on gas, and it isn't that much cheaper. *shrug*

I think the 135i and 1M have the dynamic advantages over the 3er.

For the most part the 1-Series makes sense for markets where space is at a premium in city environments or where people don't find bigger cars appealing. A 3er is already "to big" for some of the small parking spaces we have here in Munich for example.

[Raza]

Eh, I'd like to think I'd prefer a 1 series, but as the E90 3 was an inch shorter than my Jetta, that's plenty small on the outside.  At the point of considering a 1 coupe or convertible, Jeremy Clarkson suggested going for a Z4 instead.  Which is what I did, so I can honestly say I'd end up just doing that. 

[cawimmer430]

Eh, I'd like to think I'd prefer a 1 series, but as the E90 3 was an inch shorter than my Jetta, that's plenty small on the outside.  At the point of considering a 1 coupe or convertible, Jeremy Clarkson suggested going for a Z4 instead.  Which is what I did, so I can honestly say I'd end up just doing that. 

But can a Z4 do this?




There's a car for everyone in the BMW lineup. 

[Raza]

A 1 series can't do that in America either.  A 1 series convertible has 8 cubic feet of trunk space (compared to my 9.2 cubic feet) and weighs 500 pounds more.  The coupe just beats if for trunk space at 10 cubic feet. 

[cawimmer430]

A 1 series can't do that in America either.  A 1 series convertible has 8 cubic feet of trunk space (compared to my 9.2 cubic feet) and weighs 500 pounds more.  The coupe just beats if for trunk space at 10 cubic feet. 

You guys don't the 3- and 5-Door Hatch, which are more practical than the 1er Coupe/Convertible.

A Z4 is nice but I would never buy one. I'd also never get an SLK, Boxster, Miata, BRZ...to impractical for my needs and I am not big on sport coupes. I prefer classy sedans like a '74 Dodge Monaco or W116 MB S-Class.

[Raza]

You guys don't the 3- and 5-Door Hatch, which are more practical than the 1er Coupe/Convertible.

A Z4 is nice but I would never buy one. I'd also never get an SLK, Boxster, Miata, BRZ...to impractical for my needs and I am not big on sport coupes. I prefer classy sedans like a '74 Dodge Monaco or W116 MB S-Class.

Practicality is in the mind. A sports car isn't too impractical, your life is too cluttered.  Be like me.  Live an uncluttered life.   

[sportyaccordy]

Practicality is in the mind. A sports car isn't too impractical, your life is too cluttered.  Be like me.  Live an uncluttered life.   

I recall practicality being a + for a convertible over a motorcycle though.... funny how that works