OK this is worth hyperbole. Avalon Hybrid legitimately does 40 MPG combined???

[GoCougs]

Do you realize the penalties involved if a manufacturer cheats the EPA test?  The absolute PR nightmare?

They ain't explicitly cheating or lying - they're gaming, as all government regulation exists for, by tailoring performance to the known test procedure.

[r0tor]

Gotcha . Minimum RPM doesn't automatically equate to maximum MPG.

I dont remember typing this...  Every engine has a spot on its operating curve to achieve the best brake specific fuel consumption.  American automakers tend to tie this to speeds for the EPA test by choosing a specific top gear.

[12,000 RPM]

And your proof that Ford did is what?  Now that my parents are no longer remote starting the car to warm it up, they are regularly meeting or exceeding epa estimates.

Do they have a Fusion/C-Maxx hybrid?

[r0tor]

2013 fusion hybrid

[12,000 RPM]

2013 fusion hybrid

I never said it was impossible... but they're clearly the exception to the rule

http://www.fuelly.com/car/ford/fusion/2013/hybrid%20l4

140 people are averaging 41 MPG in their Fusion Hybrids... some getting as much as 49... some getting as little as 33... but on average getting nowhere near 47

Most other cars match their EPA ratings on average... Ford lied

[2o6]

I never said it was impossible... but they're clearly the exception to the rule

http://www.fuelly.com/car/ford/fusion/2013/hybrid%20l4

140 people are averaging 41 MPG in their Fusion Hybrids... some getting as much as 49... some getting as little as 33... but on average getting nowhere near 47

Most other cars match their EPA ratings on average... Ford lied

Not to mention that CR couldn't meet the EPA ratings.

[r0tor]

I never said it was impossible... but they're clearly the exception to the rule

http://www.fuelly.com/car/ford/fusion/2013/hybrid%20l4

140 people are averaging 41 MPG in their Fusion Hybrids... some getting as much as 49... some getting as little as 33... but on average getting nowhere near 47

Most other cars match their EPA ratings on average... Ford lied

Yippee... fuelly!  Another waste of internet resources to try and make people think they are important in the world.  Why bother with testing standards when you have social media!!!

BTW, I beat the fuelly averages in my RX8 and Jeep by 2-3mpg routinely and I dont even drive that nicely

[2o6]

Yippee... fuelly!  Another waste of internet resources to try and make people think they are important in the world.  Why bother with testing standards when you have social media!!!

BTW, I beat the fuelly averages in my RX8 and Jeep by 2-3mpg routinely and I dont even drive that nicely

.....Ford has created MPG numbers that have been nearly impossible to achieve. Hyundai had believable numbers, and they were caught cheating.

[MX793]

I never said it was impossible... but they're clearly the exception to the rule

http://www.fuelly.com/car/ford/fusion/2013/hybrid%20l4

140 people are averaging 41 MPG in their Fusion Hybrids... some getting as much as 49... some getting as little as 33... but on average getting nowhere near 47

Most other cars match their EPA ratings on average... Ford lied

.....Ford has created MPG numbers that have been nearly impossible to achieve. Hyundai had believable numbers, and they were caught cheating.

Have either of you actually read the EPA test procedure for how they go about measuring fuel economy?

[r0tor]

And my parents fuel mileage sucked up until a few months ago because they were using the remote start to warm the car up in the morning.  They also never had a hybrid before and werent use to driving it to get the best mileage.

Until you have results from a standardized test, all the internet hype in the world is just pissing in the wind.

[12,000 RPM]

Yippee... fuelly!  Another waste of internet resources to try and make people think they are important in the world.

Kind of like posting on a message board?

Why bother with testing standards when you have social media!!!

Because real world drivers are more representative of real world results?

BTW, I beat the fuelly averages in my RX8 and Jeep by 2-3mpg routinely and I dont even drive that nicely

Your purple heart is in the mail. Most people don't though, as evidenced by Fuelly. And you yourself are an example that EPA estimates aren't necessarily true for everybody.

Have either of you actually read the EPA test procedure for how they go about measuring fuel economy?

EPA doesn't even conduct most of the EPA tests... if they did, Hyundai & Ford wouldn't have been able to lie, and the lawsuit for Hyundai's universally missed mileage would have been filed against the EPA, not Hyundai

[MX793]

EPA doesn't even conduct most of the EPA tests... if they did, Hyundai & Ford wouldn't have been able to lie, and the lawsuit for Hyundai's universally missed mileage would have been filed against the EPA, not Hyundai

Have you read the procedure or not?

Or let me put it another way.  Do all of those consumers reporting lower mileages drive in the exact same manner as the vehicle is "driven" (vehicles aren't actually driven, they are on a dyno for the test) during the test?  Do they accelerate at the same rate?  Does their commute have the same level of "stop and go" as the test's city cycle?  Do they travel at the same speeds on the highway?  Do they run their AC more or less? Do they use the same grade of fuel (EPA testing is done with pure gasoline, not E10 which is practically all you can buy these days)?  And so on and so forth...

Hybrids are far more sensitive to driving style and driving conditions than regular IC powered cars.  As such, there will be far more variability in the amount of "YMMV" than with a traditional vehicle.

Does any of this mean that Ford didn't fudge the numbers or cheat the test?  No.  But I'm not going to jump to the conclusion that Ford lied or cheated based on a bunch of anecdotal fuel mileage numbers posted on the web that aren't accompanied by any data on driving style or conditions.  Especially when some people are able to meet or beat the published fuel economy numbers.

[MX793]

I will add that I find it strange that the Energi plug-in hybrid version of the Fusion has a lower EPA rating (by several MPG) than the regular Hybrid model.  I would have expected them to be more or less the same, with the plug-in perhaps being slightly worse on account of more weight.

[12,000 RPM]

Again the fact that most of the cars on Fuelly (including other hybrids) come within 1-2 MPG of combined mileage on average means the EPA guidelines are applicable in the real world. The real world isn't an EPA test loop... the EPA test loop is supposed to approximate the real world.

[Raza]

Man, I really need to get back to keeping my records on Fuelly.  I enjoyed that.

[MX793]

Again the fact that most of the cars on Fuelly (including other hybrids) come within 1-2 MPG of combined mileage on average means the EPA guidelines are applicable in the real world. The real world isn't an EPA test loop... the EPA test loop is supposed to approximate the real world.

Actually, there's an equation that adjusts the results from the EPA test to generate the "real world" numbers published on the window stickers.  The raw numbers aren't anywhere close to what one could expect to achieve.  The fact is that the EPA test doesn't match real world operating conditions.  In the real world, temperatures vary, there are hills, there is wind...  That doesn't even take into account the human factor.  The EPA uses specific acceleration rates and throttle inputs.  They use specific shift points for cars with manual gearboxes.  Do you know how GM decided at what RPM the skip-shift feature on the Corvette and Camaro turns off?  It's set a bit higher than the EPA-mandated shift RPM to allow them to game the test by skipping gears (not allowed by EPA testing unless the vehicle has features to lock out gears).

[Catman]

Nice package.

[2o6]

Man, I really need to get back to keeping my records on Fuelly.  I enjoyed that.

Use the phone app. Usually I update my MPG at the gas station every time I fill up.

[Soup DeVille]

Yea you can. The EPA isn't conducting tests on every car, just a sample of models. They don't have the funding to do comprehensive testing. Most ratings are conducted by the manufacturers themselves in accordance w/the EPA's procedures and handed in in good faith. It's very easy to "game", at least on its way to the EPA. They could (and probably did) run the tests on cars w/no interiors or illegally modified engines or something. Or they just lied.

Its not like manufacturers are sending every car to the EPA to get tested. Though that is probably the most rational way to do it (and make the manufacturers pay).

The EPA doesn't even conduct the tests: the manufacturers do, under strict EPA guidelines; on a rolling dyno set to simulate the car's actual curb weight, and any "cheating" would be severely dealt with. Its not done on "good faith": the data is sent to the EPA for auditing.

[12,000 RPM]

The EPA doesn't even conduct the tests: the manufacturers do, under strict EPA guidelines; on a rolling dyno set to simulate the car's actual curb weight, and any "cheating" would be severely dealt with. Its not done on "good faith": the data is sent to the EPA for auditing.

How can the EPA scan for ringers? I'm not saying the EPA doesn't check or see the details of the results, just that without actually testing the cars themselves there's no way for them to know whether the cars being tested = the cars that will be sold to consumers, no matter how much they analyze the data.

[Soup DeVille]

How can the EPA scan for ringers? I'm not saying the EPA doesn't check or see the details of the results, just that without actually testing the cars themselves there's no way for them to know whether the cars being tested = the cars that will be sold to consumers, no matter how much they analyze the data.

You do understand how mass production works, right? Lots and lots of cars, made exactly the same way?

[cawimmer430]

Since it's a Toyota, the EPA adds 20 mpg extra for a combined total of 60+ mpg! 

[12,000 RPM]

You do understand how mass production works, right? Lots and lots of cars, made exactly the same way?

Not sure what mass production has to do with Hyundai making special ringers for EPA tests

The point is Ford & Hyundai somehow gamed the EPA tests. I was just speculating how they might have done it. But they did.

[Soup DeVille]

Not sure what mass production has to do with Hyundai making special ringers for EPA tests

The point is Ford & Hyundai somehow gamed the EPA tests. I was just speculating how they might have done it. But they did.

They take random samples off the line, that's why.

The tests are always gamed, by programming the ECM and transmission to maximize the efficiency along the EPA trace, which is never an exact fit for real world driving; and there are serious flaws with the standards for hybrid cars in the tests themselves.

But, that's completely different from making one off ringers.

[280Z Turbo]

Lets not forget about GMs skip shift, which is bullshit.

[Soup DeVille]

Lets not forget about GMs skip shift, which is bullshit.

Also why their seven speeds automatics shift so weirdly.

[GoCougs]

They take random samples off the line, that's why.

The tests are always gamed, by programming the ECM and transmission to maximize the efficiency along the EPA trace, which is never an exact fit for real world driving; and there are serious flaws with the standards for hybrid cars in the tests themselves.

But, that's completely different from making one off ringers.

Turbo cars also add an extra measure of gamability what with boost (Ecoboost V6 and Hyundai 2.0T get way under EPA in real-world driving).

[12,000 RPM]

They take random samples off the line, that's why.

The tests are always gamed, by programming the ECM and transmission to maximize the efficiency along the EPA trace, which is never an exact fit for real world driving; and there are serious flaws with the standards for hybrid cars in the tests themselves.

But, that's completely different from making one off ringers.

I agree that there are issues, but at the end of the day on average most cars are hitting their EPA estimates and Ford + Hyundai weren't. How come there is only a disparity for those two brands?

[MrH]

I agree that there are issues, but at the end of the day on average most cars are hitting their EPA estimates and Ford + Hyundai weren't. How come there is only a disparity for those two brands?

A trillion engineering decisions came together to give them vehicles that were better able to game the system?

[Soup DeVille]

I agree that there are issues, but at the end of the day on average most cars are hitting their EPA estimates and Ford + Hyundai weren't. How come there is only a disparity for those two brands?

Most cars get below their ratings, some more than others. Ford's ecoboost engines consistently do worse though.