What Should Wizard Drive?

[thewizard16]

Due to recent (extremely) frustrating events I won't go into here, I've decided it's about time for the ES and I to part ways. That said, I still really like the ES as a car and it is proving difficult to find a suitable replacement that isn't another ES. So, I pose the question:

For someone who actually likes the ES, what is a suitable replacement?

You know I'm  going to do pretty much whatever the hell I want to anyway regardless of what advice is given, but since I hope to start car shopping again within the month, I am quite interested in what kind of cars you guys think would be worth looking at. Price range is $9k, possibly a little higher but I'm trying not to be overly optimistic at this point.

Requirements:
-Real seating for four - This eliminates most sporty coupes that have back-seats in name only. I like being able to take a few people somewhere with me. I have very little interest in a tiny car, regardless of how fun it might be.
-200+hp - No sense in downgrading if I don't have to.
-Leather seating - Same logic as above, I like leather, don't care for cloth, see no reason to compromise on that.
-Mostly reliable - I managed to pick poorly among the ESes available, but I do want something that isn't a total money pit. Yes, this means the E39, for example, is not a great choice (I've done research on them and although I love the look and the idea of one, they are expensive to keep running according to the vast majority of sources).
-Well built - I know this means different things to different people, but I want something that feels solid and well-made. There are a whole lot of cars that fit this criteria, but in my meager price range, there are also way too many suggestions that don't. I'm not interested in anything too cheaply made.

Alright, I know those are high criteria for very little money, but what have you got?

[GoCougs]

'03 - '07 Accord V6 sedan
'07 - '08 Camry SE V6

That is all.

[2o6]

Accord over Camry, Camrys IMO feel sloppy.



Possibly a used TSX or TL.

[thewizard16]

'03 - '07 Accord V6 sedan
'07 - '08 Camry SE V6

That is all.

Neither are bad choices. Problems: Accord has transmission issues. Camry SEs with desired features are almost impossible to find.

Accord over Camry, Camrys IMO feel sloppy.

Possibly a used TSX or TL.

Camry SE (and only SE) is surprisingly decent. Accord is quite decent too. Transmission and availability problems remain. Used TSX and TL are still quite new overall, so they are very difficult to find in the price range with any reasonable level of mileage. 03 and earlier TLs are quite affordable, but unattractive and also had the bad transmission, and having had two different friends with Acuras of that generation that had transmissions fail, I'm not dealing with that mess. I could be all about an 04 TL, but that price range is pretty low to find one of those. I'm ambivalent about the TSX, but it's definitely worth considering if it creeps into the price range.

[Vinsanity]

G35 sedan? My brother's G has been mechanically solid, though the interior is kinda falling apart.

[GoCougs]

Pretty much any car with an A/T is a gamble with more than ~100,000 miles IMO. FWIW, lots of '03 - '07 Accords sedans were sold in EX-L trim with the I-4 and 5MT (and the '06 - '07 could be had with V6 and 6MT but they're rare).

The problem with buying a more premium older and/or higher mileage car is the risk of ginormous repair bills (which sounds like you might have run into with the ES).

[hotrodalex]

Cadillac STS?

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=41005&endYear=2013&vehicleStyleCodes=HATCH%2CSEDAN%2CWAGON&showcaseOwnerId=0&startYear=2000&searchRadius=25&maxPrice=11000&bodyStyleCodes=HATCH%2CSEDAN%2CWAGON&minPrice=7000&listingId=348367941&listingIndex=7&Log=0

Passat?

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=41005&endYear=2008&vehicleStyleCodes=SEDAN&modelCode1=PASS&showcaseOwnerId=0&startYear=2000&makeCode1=VOLKS&searchRadius=25&maxPrice=11000&bodyStyleCodes=SEDAN&mmt=%5BVOLKS%5BPASS%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&minPrice=7000&listingId=341702405&listingIndex=4&Log=0

Or a Ford Fusion. Or an Accord.

[thewizard16]

G35 sedan? My brother's G has been mechanically solid, though the interior is kinda falling apart.

A good idea. My concern with them is definitely the interior. That's what killed the I35 when I was looking at the ES, the interiors felt a definite step below and weren't holding up too well. I've seen similar issues with the G35 as well, but I think they'd definitely be worth a look.

Pretty much any car with an A/T is a gamble with more than ~100,000 miles IMO. FWIW, lots of '03 - '07 Accords sedans were sold in EX-L trim with the I-4 and 5MT (and the '06 - '07 could be had with V6 and 6MT but they're rare).

The problem with buying a more premium older and/or higher mileage car is the risk of ginormous repair bills (which sounds like you might have run into with the ES).

Agree generally, but some are a gamble in the sense of "something could go wrong eventually" and some are a gamble in the sense of "if you own an 98-02 Accord/99-03 TL you WILL need a new transmission at 100k". I don't mind there being risk of course, but the Camry was still shifting smooth at almost 160k and the ES shifts great at 110k, so I do expect some decent longevity.

The ES has been pretty solid mechanically, but there is some weird electrical issue going on that I have spent countless hours of my own time and several hundred dollars worth of mechanics' diagnostic time trying to figure out and we're still not entirely sure what's going on. On top of that, the car is originally from New York and although there's no body rust, the bolts on the bottom are all seized solid with rust and any minor job down there ends up involving extra hours and money worth of work to drill out the sheared bolts and fix things. The car isn't unreliable so much because of its age as it is its origins and that's my fault. I know things will come up with older cars and I don't expect miracles, but some are certainly more reliable than others when it comes to unexpected/unusual repairs. The ES hasn't been so much just a money issue as it has a time and annoyance issue and I'm just tired of thinking I've finally fixed a problem only to have it bite me in the ass again a few weeks later (and again, and again). I basically have a late 90s/early 00s BMW's level of maintenance/work headache right now without the occasional driving fun.

[thewizard16]

Cadillac STS?

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=41005&endYear=2013&vehicleStyleCodes=HATCH%2CSEDAN%2CWAGON&showcaseOwnerId=0&startYear=2000&searchRadius=25&maxPrice=11000&bodyStyleCodes=HATCH%2CSEDAN%2CWAGON&minPrice=7000&listingId=348367941&listingIndex=7&Log=0

How old do you think I am?

Passat?

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=41005&endYear=2008&vehicleStyleCodes=SEDAN&modelCode1=PASS&showcaseOwnerId=0&startYear=2000&makeCode1=VOLKS&searchRadius=25&maxPrice=11000&bodyStyleCodes=SEDAN&mmt=%5BVOLKS%5BPASS%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&minPrice=7000&listingId=341702405&listingIndex=4&Log=0

Or a Ford Fusion. Or an Accord.

I like the Passat idea a lot actually. Need to look into that. I don't mind the Fusion but it's a far cry from the ES/G/etc. level of refinement. The Accords I can afford have the transmission concern addressed above, but not a bad idea either.

[ifcar]

Since you like the ES but just had bad luck with one, what's wrong with going for another?


Also, you were mentioning "GAH old person car" for the STS posted earlier -- your criteria just happen to bring in a lot of big, plush cars that are also popular with the older crowd. Embrace it. Accordingly, some alternatives (I ran the search up to $11,000 for the listed price):


2005 Buick LaCrosse CXL (3.8-liter):



http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp?tracktype=usedcc&csDlId=&csDgId=&listingId=121977751&listingRecNum=11&criteria=prMx%3D11000%26sf1Dir%3DDESC%26prMn%3D0%26alMdId%3D20666%26alMdId%3D21279%26alMdId%3D20658%26alMdId%3D21355%26alMdId%3D22164%26mkId%3D20064%26mkId%3D20019%26mkId%3D20088%26mkId%3D20006%26stkTyp%3DU%26mdId%3D20666%26mdId%3D21279%26mdId%3D20658%26mdId%3D21355%26rd%3D150%26crSrtFlds%3DstkTypId-feedSegId-mkId-mdId-pseudoPrice-pseudoYear%26zc%3D72103%26rn%3D0%26PMmt%3D4-4-0%26stkTypId%3D28881%26sf2Dir%3DASC%26sf1Nm%3Dprice%26yrMn%3D2001%26sf2Nm%3Dmiles%26isDealerGrouping%3Dfalse%26alMkId%3D20064%26alMkId%3D20019%26alMkId%3D20088%26alMkId%3D20006%26alMkId%3D20015%26rpp%3D250%26feedSegId%3D28705&aff=national&listType=1


2005 LaCrosse CXS (3.6-liter):


http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp?tracktype=usedcc&csDlId=&csDgId=&listingId=112955511&listingRecNum=2&criteria=prMx%3D11000%26sf1Dir%3DDESC%26prMn%3D0%26alMdId%3D20666%26alMdId%3D21279%26alMdId%3D20658%26alMdId%3D21355%26alMdId%3D22164%26mkId%3D20064%26mkId%3D20019%26mkId%3D20088%26mkId%3D20006%26stkTyp%3DU%26mdId%3D20666%26mdId%3D21279%26mdId%3D20658%26mdId%3D21355%26rd%3D150%26crSrtFlds%3DstkTypId-feedSegId-mkId-mdId-pseudoPrice-pseudoYear%26zc%3D72103%26rn%3D0%26PMmt%3D4-4-0%26stkTypId%3D28881%26sf2Dir%3DASC%26sf1Nm%3Dprice%26yrMn%3D2001%26sf2Nm%3Dmiles%26isDealerGrouping%3Dfalse%26alMkId%3D20064%26alMkId%3D20019%26alMkId%3D20088%26alMkId%3D20006%26alMkId%3D20015%26rpp%3D250%26feedSegId%3D28705&aff=national&listType=1



2002 Toyota Avalon XL:



http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp?tracktype=usedcc&csDlId=&csDgId=&listingId=121610908&listingRecNum=13&criteria=prMx%3D11000%26sf1Dir%3DDESC%26prMn%3D0%26alMdId%3D20666%26alMdId%3D21279%26alMdId%3D20658%26alMdId%3D21355%26alMdId%3D22164%26mkId%3D20064%26mkId%3D20019%26mkId%3D20088%26mkId%3D20006%26stkTyp%3DU%26mdId%3D20666%26mdId%3D21279%26mdId%3D20658%26mdId%3D21355%26rd%3D150%26crSrtFlds%3DstkTypId-feedSegId-mkId-mdId-pseudoPrice-pseudoYear%26zc%3D72103%26rn%3D0%26PMmt%3D4-4-0%26stkTypId%3D28881%26sf2Dir%3DASC%26sf1Nm%3Dprice%26yrMn%3D2001%26sf2Nm%3Dmiles%26isDealerGrouping%3Dfalse%26alMkId%3D20064%26alMkId%3D20019%26alMkId%3D20088%26alMkId%3D20006%26alMkId%3D20015%26rpp%3D250%26feedSegId%3D28705&aff=national&listType=1


2006 Nissan Maxima SL:



http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp?tracktype=usedcc&csDlId=&csDgId=&listingId=121037703&listingRecNum=3&criteria=prMx%3D11000%26sf1Dir%3DDESC%26prMn%3D0%26alMdId%3D21445%26mkId%3D20077%26stkTyp%3DU%26mdId%3D21445%26rd%3D150%26crSrtFlds%3DstkTypId-feedSegId-mkId-mdId-pseudoPrice-pseudoYear%26zc%3D72103%26rn%3D0%26PMmt%3D1-1-0%26stkTypId%3D28881%26sf2Dir%3DASC%26sf1Nm%3Dprice%26yrMn%3D2002%26sf2Nm%3Dmiles%26isDealerGrouping%3Dfalse%26alMkId%3D20077%26rpp%3D250%26feedSegId%3D28705&aff=national&listType=1


2008 Hyundai Azera Limited:


http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp?tracktype=usedcc&csDlId=&csDgId=&listingId=105358035&listingRecNum=0&criteria=prMx%3D11000%26sf1Dir%3DDESC%26prMn%3D0%26alMdId%3D20666%26alMdId%3D21279%26alMdId%3D20658%26alMdId%3D21355%26alMdId%3D22164%26mkId%3D20064%26mkId%3D20019%26mkId%3D20088%26mkId%3D20006%26stkTyp%3DU%26mdId%3D20666%26mdId%3D21279%26mdId%3D20658%26mdId%3D21355%26rd%3D150%26crSrtFlds%3DstkTypId-feedSegId-mkId-mdId-pseudoPrice-pseudoYear%26zc%3D72103%26rn%3D0%26PMmt%3D4-4-0%26stkTypId%3D28881%26sf2Dir%3DASC%26sf1Nm%3Dprice%26yrMn%3D2001%26sf2Nm%3Dmiles%26isDealerGrouping%3Dfalse%26alMkId%3D20064%26alMkId%3D20019%26alMkId%3D20088%26alMkId%3D20006%26alMkId%3D20015%26rpp%3D250%26feedSegId%3D28705&aff=national&listType=1


Or a cheaper 2007 Azera (higher miles):



http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp?tracktype=usedcc&csDlId=&csDgId=&listingId=118928351&listingRecNum=12&criteria=prMx%3D11000%26sf1Dir%3DDESC%26prMn%3D0%26alMdId%3D20666%26alMdId%3D21279%26alMdId%3D20658%26alMdId%3D21355%26alMdId%3D22164%26mkId%3D20064%26mkId%3D20019%26mkId%3D20088%26mkId%3D20006%26stkTyp%3DU%26mdId%3D20666%26mdId%3D21279%26mdId%3D20658%26mdId%3D21355%26rd%3D150%26crSrtFlds%3DstkTypId-feedSegId-mkId-mdId-pseudoPrice-pseudoYear%26zc%3D72103%26rn%3D0%26PMmt%3D4-4-0%26stkTypId%3D28881%26sf2Dir%3DASC%26sf1Nm%3Dprice%26yrMn%3D2001%26sf2Nm%3Dmiles%26isDealerGrouping%3Dfalse%26alMkId%3D20064%26alMkId%3D20019%26alMkId%3D20088%26alMkId%3D20006%26alMkId%3D20015%26rpp%3D250%26feedSegId%3D28705&aff=national&listType=1


2008 Ford Taurus Limited:



http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp?tracktype=usedcc&csDlId=&csDgId=&listingId=111313597&listingRecNum=1&criteria=prMx%3D11000%26sf1Dir%3DDESC%26prMn%3D0%26alMdId%3D22164%26mkId%3D20015%26stkTyp%3DU%26mdId%3D22164%26rd%3D150%26crSrtFlds%3DstkTypId-feedSegId-mkId-mdId-pseudoPrice-pseudoYear%26zc%3D72103%26rn%3D0%26PMmt%3D1-1-0%26stkTypId%3D28881%26sf2Dir%3DASC%26sf1Nm%3Dprice%26yrMn%3D2007%26sf2Nm%3Dmiles%26isDealerGrouping%3Dfalse%26alMkId%3D20015%26rpp%3D250%26feedSegId%3D28705&aff=national&listType=1




Another I searched but didn't find anything on was the Infiniti I35, but that may vary by time.

[12,000 RPM]

I think the Avalon & I35 are the best bangs for your buck in that segment. I think the old FWD 3.5 RL might be up your alley too.

[Laconian]

I wouldn't get a V6 AT Honda product.

[12,000 RPM]

The old RL is unrelated. Its engine goes front to back and it has a totally different transmission.

[Raza]

Automatic or manual?

Either way, even though we all gave Sporty shit for it, Nissan Maxima. 

Accord is a good idea, but I wouldn't buy a V6 automatic Honda.

Camry is so ugh, but since you already had a Camry, it's worth a look.  You could get a newer model, with hopefully more interesting looks than your boring-even-for-its-time ES.

Of those, my top choice would be the Maxima though. 

[GoCougs]

Yeah, forgot the Maxima. Decent cars. The '03 - '06 were available with 6MT but probably hard to find.

[Colin]

I'd certainly agree with those who suggested Infiniti G.

What about a V6 Mazda 6? the zoom zoom one was great, its replacement a bit less so.

3.0 V6 Fusion or Milan or Zephyr/MKZ would also be a good bet.

How about a Volvo S60?

In time honoured tradition, of course, having set out your criteria and we've generally given suggestions that more or less match, you are perfectly entitled to go and buy an Abarth 500 or a Miata or something which is no way close to what you set out for us to advise upon!

[CJ]

Sell me your headlights?

[Raza]

Yeah, forgot the Maxima. Decent cars. The '03 - '06 were available with 6MT but probably hard to find.

That's the tooth model, right?  I actually drove a 6 speed one of those.  Pretty decent to drive.  Better clutch than on the 350Z, actually.

[Submariner]

That's the tooth model, right?  I actually drove a 6 speed one of those.  Pretty decent to drive.  Better clutch than on the 350Z, actually.

I kind of like them, odd looks and all.  The only problem is I can't help but think everyone who drives that model Maxima wears a baseball cap to the side and has a tattoo on their body visualizing some bizarre sex act they claim to be the masters of, Greg included.   

[NomisR]

Rx8!

[CALL_911]

I vote for a 2003 or so GS300.

G35 is a sweet choice, though.

[CALL_911]

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=72653&endYear=2014&inGalleryView=true&modelCode1=GS300&showcaseOwnerId=68353&startYear=1981&makeCode1=LEXUS&searchRadius=0&maxPrice=12000&mmt=%5BLEXUS%5BGS300%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=350389892&Log=0

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=72653&endYear=2014&inGalleryView=true&modelCode1=GS300&showcaseOwnerId=68353&startYear=1981&makeCode1=LEXUS&searchRadius=0&maxPrice=12000&mmt=%5BLEXUS%5BGS300%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=334311903&Log=0

[CALL_911]

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=72653&endYear=2014&inGalleryView=true&modelCode1=G35&showcaseOwnerId=0&startYear=1981&makeCode1=INFIN&searchRadius=200&maxPrice=12000&showcaseListingId=0&mmt=%5BINFIN%5BG35%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=349753707&Log=0

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=72653&endYear=2014&inGalleryView=true&modelCode1=G35&showcaseOwnerId=0&startYear=1981&makeCode1=INFIN&searchRadius=200&maxPrice=12000&showcaseListingId=0&mmt=%5BINFIN%5BG35%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=346931037&Log=0

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=72653&endYear=2014&inGalleryView=true&modelCode1=G35&showcaseOwnerId=0&startYear=1981&makeCode1=INFIN&searchRadius=200&maxPrice=12000&showcaseListingId=0&mmt=%5BINFIN%5BG35%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=345091532&Log=0

You shouldn't have trouble negotiating down to around $9-10k.

[MX793]

Lincoln Town Car

[2o6]

That's the tooth model, right?  I actually drove a 6 speed one of those.  Pretty decent to drive.  Better clutch than on the 350Z, actually.

I almost bought one

[thewizard16]

I'll try to do an all encompassing reply.

iffy- I've thought about that and in a lot of ways it would make life easy since I could just plug and play the stuff I already put in this car into another ES, but this one has also pissed me off enough that I have a little bit of irrational dislike for the ES overall right now. I will probably end up looking at some though. I don't care for the LaCrosse based off looks, but I'm sure it would be a nice car for the money. The Avalon is a similar issue, I just don't like it, but it's a nice car, hits all my requirements, and I should probably at least test drive one. My concern with the Maxima is interior quality. For those that remember, I looked at the generation of Maxima prior to the one you posted when I was shopping for the ES and was appalled at how terribly their interiors hold up. Plastics break, that silver finish they use peels off, the vinyl on the sides and bolsters of the seats crack, and vents were frequently broken. They cheaped out on the interior big time and it showed. I don't know if the newer ones are as bad or not so I should at least look at one, but I'm a little skeptical after the last go around with the Maximas. They drive well though. I hadn't even thought of the Azera, I'll have to look at it a little. It's not pretty, but it does appear to be a nice car overall. Ditto for the Taurus. I looked at I35s last time and eliminated them definitively. Handles worse than the Maxima with an interior that's only marginally better.

12,000- I don't love the looks of the RL either but it's definitely one of the most feature laden cars in that price range. That's both a pro and a con since I don't know how many of those features are things that would increase repair bills, but I would like to look at an RL in person.

Raza- I strongly prefer automatic, but I did see a Mazda 6 manual that made me wonder if I should consider going manual. I don't get to drive anywhere fun anymore so a manual is really just more work, but I'm not 100% opposed to it like I have been in the past. Maxima- See above, but might look at one. Accord- it'd have to be manual and I'm not sure like the Accord enough to bother with that. Camry- I would consider an SE of the generation of that XLE I drove for a while, but I'm not super thrilled about the idea. I actually like the way the ES looks because it held up well- not flashy by any means but it still looks classy/relatively expensive even 14 years later.

Colin- I'm intrigued by the Mazda 6. There are some that are available in the price range and although they don't look quite as refined as a lot of the other options, there are some that hit the features requirements and I would definitely be willing to give one a chance if I can find one to test drive. Haven't looked at the Fusions or Zephyr/MKZ but I should. I had a loaded Fusion rental of that generation once and although it's a far cry from the Lexus et. al. on interior quality, it was a nice enough car overall. A Lincoln version might be nicer-enough to be worth considering. Volvo S60 I ruled out last time around due to some reliability concern I no longer remember and general dissatisfaction with the interior.  I do solemnly swear I will not buy a Miata or an Abarth 500. I am impressed with the suggestions though, there are several options I hadn't considered that are worth looking at. Whoever mentioned the Passat earlier deserves kudos because I'm now quite intrigued by it as well and snooped around one parked in one of the clinic parking lots today.

Clay- If I get something without HIDs that is workable with the kit I have I'll probably throw it in there, but I can keep you posted since I'm pretty sure the majority of these choices wouldn't work with what I have now.

Nomis- Although I prefer burning steady commodities of oil to electronic demons that can't be exorcised (or even found, apparently), I don't think the RX8 is the best fit for me. 

CALL_911- I really like that white GS a lot, except for the ridiculously excessive wood on the dash of that one. The GS is probably my favorite option as a concept for a replacement so far, but they are a bit harder to find and I haven't even driven one yet so I have no idea if it will actually be a consideration or if I just like the idea of one.  I am pretty confident I won't like the G35's interior the more I look at pictures of it, but I will definitely look at one.

MX793- I've actually driven one once and dear god no. It'd be the perfect car to be buried in though, very plush and they'd probably drive my corpse to the funeral in one anyway.

[hotrodalex]

S2000 is obviously the correct choice here.

[Raza]

I kind of like them, odd looks and all.  The only problem is I can't help but think everyone who drives that model Maxima wears a baseball cap to the side and has a tattoo on their body visualizing some bizarre sex act they claim to be the masters of, Greg included.

That generation?  Funny.  I always picture the drivers as unimaginatively dressed white American middle class men.  Greg included. 

[Raza]

RX-8 can fit a 6 footer relatively comfortably in the back, though. 

[2o6]

Jetta V, Passat.



I don't like the Lacrosse; it feels old-school. The tried-and-true 3.8L is good enough, I guess. The 3.6L likes stretching timing chains.


Nissans don't age well, and I hear the G has the potential to be a shitshow.


Anything that isn't a current generation Hyundai (and even then, IDK) IMO feels like trash. Especially used. I don't like the Azera. Feels really cheap inside and out.

Taurus is really nice, but do not expect it to be a good handler. The Five Hundred is also nice. (Stay away from the CVT)

Camry feels like trash inside.

MKZ is a laughable attempt at a luxury car. It's a Fusion, but only a little bit quieter, and with a hideous interior and like a few more soft touch plastics (that look like shit)



Shot in the Dark

Chrysler 300

VW Jetta V (IMO it feels as nice as the cars you're looking at - steering and handling are tight and the interior is well put together. 2.5L isn't great, but it'll get the job done)

Passat - Like the Jetta but bigger and nicer. Looked long and hard at one.