New Jaguar must succeed or it's all over

[SVT666]

The future of Jaguar could hinge on the success of brand's upcoming BMW 3-Series rival, a top executive at the automaker has revealed.

Jaguar recently expanded its lineup to include more R-performance models as well as the sensational F-Type Roadster, but the British automaker remains a low-volume player in the global auto market. Jaguar is banking on its 3-Series rival – codenamed X760 – to drastically increase its sales volume, with the company's future relying on the success of the sports sedan.

"This is the only choice as Jaguar is not viable at 60,000 units [per year]. If the X760 fails, it will probably be the end for the brand," an unnamed Jaguar Land Rover executive was quoted as saying by Autocar.

Although we won't see the X760, which could be called the XS in production, until next year's Paris Motor Show, all indications suggest the compact sedan will be a hit for Jaguar. The XS will be based on a new aluminum architecture and place a heavy emphasis on styling and driving dynamics.

According to Jaguar boss Adrian Hallmark, the XS will be "the most advanced, most efficient, most refined car in that segment. Not almost as good as, but better than the best in the world."

The XS will hit the market in sedan form in early 2015, followed by a wagon in 2016. Jaguar is also mulling a coupe variant for 2018.

[MX793]

Tata needs to let Jag market a lux'ed out version of the Nano.

[SVT666]

No wonder nobody wants to build cars for enthusiasts.  Every time they do they start selling fewer cars.

[MrH]

No wonder nobody wants to build cars for enthusiasts.  Every time they do they start selling fewer cars.

[SVT666]

Roll your eyes all you want, it doesn't make it less true.  Why do you think Toyota and Honda sell exponentially more cars than Mazda?  Jaguar has revamped itself and is focusing their lineup towards enthusiasts and they are in danger of folding in a few years.  VW started selling more Passats when they stopped being fun.  Volume sellers are the inoffensive boring ass mainstreamers.  Performance cars are always at the bottom in terms of sales.  BMW seems to be the one exception though.

[2o6]

Mazda doesn't sell well because their cars aren't that damn special.



"fun to drive" doesn't matter if it doesn't do well at it's original intended purpose.



The new Passat still drives well; it sells better because it's CHEAPER not because it doesn't drive as well. The old one was not priced competitively.


New Jaguars aren't all that strong. The best product in their portfolio is probably the XJ. The XF is using an old as platform (S-type/Lincoln LS), and the F-type (although pretty) is a niche. I forgot the XK existed, and did the rest of the market. No reason to buy any of the cars over the competition.

[MX793]

What was Jag's volume before the recent crop of sportier models (before Ford sold the brand)?

[SVT666]

Mazda doesn't sell well because their cars aren't that damn special.

I stopped reading after this.

[2o6]

I stopped reading after this.

The New Mazda 3 is OK, the Mazda 2 isn't that economical, the old 3 was pretty good (and sold well), but the old Mazda 6 and the first Mazda 6 were fleet queens. The first one drove OK, but was too small (and has corrosion issues). The 2nd one was nothing special to drive, look at, or particularly cheap. I guess the new Mazda 6 is OK, but it doesn't have an option for more power. The 2.0L in the CX-5 is useless, since the 2.5L is faster with the same economy.


And the rest of the lineup is a wash...

[Colin]

Mazda doesn't sell well because their cars aren't that damn special.

"fun to drive" doesn't matter if it doesn't do well at it's original intended purpose.

The new Passat still drives well; it sells better because it's CHEAPER not because it doesn't drive as well. The old one was not priced competitively.

New Jaguars aren't all that strong. The best product in their portfolio is probably the XJ. The XF is using an old as platform (S-type/Lincoln LS), and the F-type (although pretty) is a niche. I forgot the XK existed, and did the rest of the market. No reason to buy any of the cars over the competition.

You've driven an XF, have you, to be able to dismiss it this glibly?

I have, and I've also sampled an A6, a 5 series and an E Class. They were in three separate countries and not comparable versions, but I can tell you that of the four, if I wanted the non-top of the range models, I'd pick the XF 3.0 D S over the German trio (actually, I suspect I'd choose the XFR over the others, too!).

[2o6]

Strong in the sense that no one has any reason to buy it over the competition.


The XF looks good, but why the hell should I buy one over a BMW/Audi/Lexus, etc?

[MX793]

OK, did a little digging into the sales volume matter.  Can't find a number for Jag alone, but in 2012 Jaguar Land Rover moved over 350,000 units.  I find it hard to believe that LR branded vehicles outsell Jags by more than 4:1, meaning that Jag isn't a 60K unit per year business at the moment.  Also, another article I read that was published earlier this year, a Jag rep states that Jag's production facilities are nearly at capacity.  They are already producing cars around the clock.

[2o6]

OK, did a little digging into the sales volume matter.  Can't find a number for Jag alone, but in 2012 Jaguar Land Rover moved over 350,000 units.  I find it hard to believe that LR branded vehicles outsell Jags by more than 4:1, meaning that Jag isn't a 60K unit per year business at the moment.  Also, another article I read that was published earlier this year, a Jag rep states that Jag's production facilities are nearly at capacity.  They are already producing cars around the clock.

IIRC, isn't that on old Ford/Volvo tooling, though? I can't imagine that Tata has any interest in leveraging or even the market or ability to share any Jaguar anything with a basic Tata....

[MX793]

IIRC, isn't that on old Ford/Volvo tooling, though? I can't imagine that Tata has any interest in leveraging or even the market or ability to share any Jaguar anything with a basic Tata....

Point is, the OP makes it sound all doom and gloom like Jag is on the brink of crumbling and is barely selling any cars, when in fact that's not the case.  Their profits for the past two years have been good (and increasing), as have sales volume.  Other articles indicate that Jag is selling as many cars as they can build.  They may not yet have the volume that Tata hopes them to someday have, but they aren't up against the ropes hoping that this new model will be their Hail Mary to pull them back on track.

[SVT666]

I just read another report that says September was a record sales month for Jag.  I can, however, believe that they must sell A LOT more cars to make it viable.  Don't forget the Jag was one of the reasons FoMoCo was losing so much money.

[MrH]

Point is, the OP makes it sound all doom and gloom like Jag is on the brink of crumbling and is barely selling any cars, when in fact that's not the case.  Their profits for the past two years have been good (and increasing), as have sales volume.  Other articles indicate that Jag is selling as many cars as they can build.  They may not yet have the volume that Tata hopes them to someday have, but they aren't up against the ropes hoping that this new model will be their Hail Mary to pull them back on track.

They never had huge targets to begin with.  The only thing worse than this article is some of the comments in this thread

[Catman]

They desperately need a competitor to the 3 series and it has to be good.  Hopefully they pull out all the stops.

[MX793]

I just read another report that says September was a record sales month for Jag.  I can, however, believe that they must sell A LOT more cars to make it viable.  Don't forget the Jag was one of the reasons FoMoCo was losing so much money.

Ford sold Jag because they needed capital due to all of their brands' sales taking a nose dive and they needed to cut loose whatever they could to keep operating.  They put up their own headquarters to keep cash in the accounts. 

According to JLR's '11/'12 annual report, they were in the black both 2011 and 2012.

[SVT666]

They were losing money like crazy when Ford owned them.

[SVT666]

They never had huge targets to begin with.  The only thing worse than this article is some of the comments in this thread

You like making snide remarks from the sidelines, but you have yet to offer up any evidence to prove me wrong.  Cars geared to enthusiasts never sell as well as more mundane competitors...except for BMW.  But that has more to do with badge snobbery then anything.

[ifcar]

Roll your eyes all you want, it doesn't make it less true.  Why do you think Toyota and Honda sell exponentially more cars than Mazda?  Jaguar has revamped itself and is focusing their lineup towards enthusiasts and they are in danger of folding in a few years.  VW started selling more Passats when they stopped being fun.  Volume sellers are the inoffensive boring ass mainstreamers.  Performance cars are always at the bottom in terms of sales.  BMW seems to be the one exception though.

They were in way more danger before. The fact that they're still in danger (if they are) is an indicator of how bad things were before the latest batch of cars.

[MrH]

You like making snide remarks from the sidelines, but you have yet to offer up any evidence to prove me wrong.  Cars geared to enthusiasts never sell as well as more mundane competitors...except for BMW.  But that has more to do with badge snobbery then anything.

You're just talking non sense.  There isn't much to debate.  No, enthusiasts cars aren't some sort of death mark for manufacturers.  They don't sell in huge volume typically, which makes it much harder when you've got a fixed cost to spread around, but that can all be managed to some degree.  There's an entire industry and profession based around trying to quantify this, and you're saying that enthusiast car = you're dead.

Never mind the fact Jaguar is doing the best it has in years and is profitable right now.

[12,000 RPM]

Some perspective

Jaguar has been selling ~13K cars annually in the US for the last 5 or so years. They are on pace to sell maybe 20K this year. Not sure how that's a record year when they were selling ~60K cars in 2002. Their sales plummeted as Cadillac & Infiniti ate up their market share.

Meanwhile, Infiniti moves ~55-60K Gs a year. Caddy is only moving ~40K ATSs this year but that's still better than Jag's overall volume. Etc.

"Well those entry level cars are selling, why shouldnt Jaguar?"- Mr H

Well heres the thing. Sure there is an enthusiast market, but it's not the high volume market Jag needs to be sustainable. People are not going to stop buying 3s and Gs en masse to buy an unfamiliar Jag 3. Caddy is putting money on the hoods of ATSs and nowhere near the 60K they were hoping to do, at least yet. This segment is largely about brand, image/style and value, and a 3 box 3 series fighter that will "better at everything" than the 3 series will have none of these things. Jag's only chance at success in that market IMO is to really turn up the style. The Evoque is doing super well and the A5 Sportback market is wide open, plus can make a connection to the attractive (IMO) fast back looking XJ. I think if they come out with a small crossover and a swoopy 5 door hatch they will be able to make way better inroads than with a boring ass sedan. Why go for a Jag when a 3 with more brand recognition is there for the same $$$ (since that is really what matters to most consumers in this market)? There's gotta be something more

[MrH]

"Well those entry level cars are selling, why shouldnt Jaguar?"- Mr H

SportySPIN at its finest.  Where did I say this?  You just blatantly made that up and attached my name to it.

[12,000 RPM]

SportySPIN at its finest.  Where did I say this?  You just blatantly made that up and attached my name to it.

Naw, I anticipated that would be your response, so I addressed it ahead of time.

ATS is not hitting its targets because nobody wants a store brand 3 for a name brand price. If Jag goes the ATS route they will fail too.

[MrH]

Naw, I anticipated that would be your response, so I addressed it ahead of time.

ATS is not hitting its targets because nobody wants a store brand 3 for a name brand price. If Jag goes the ATS route they will fail too.

You're now arguing with things you'll predict I'll say? 

[Raza]

The new Passat still drives well; it sells better because it's CHEAPER not because it doesn't drive as well. The old one was not priced competitively.

The new Passat drives well in comparison to its competitors.  But it is a far cry from the B5 and B6 in terms of driving dynamics. 

[12,000 RPM]

You're now arguing with things you'll predict I'll say? 

We had damn near the same discussion with the ATS and I know consistency, even in the absence of changing contexts, maturity or even logic is tantamount to you

Cute that you have to resort to arguing semantics rather than discussing the content of my post though

[Raza]

They were losing money like crazy when Ford owned them.

Yeah, but look at the products.  The XJ from two generations ago was almost S class money, but E class sized on the inside.  The XJ that came after that remedied it, but despite its achingly good looks, people still overlooked it. 

The S-Type seemed fairly successful at the beginning, but it also seemed like it fell off quickly.  I went from seeing them all the time to seeing other cars parked where they normally were. 

The X-Type was never a convincing car.  Again, very good looks with not much substance behind it, other than standard AWD, which was then more of a niche product, the market mostly being sewn up by Audi.  Remember, this was a time when people didn't know that driving a RWD car in light rain would cause instant explosion of your heart and cause your children to make bad sexual decisions. 

They made a horribly ugly XJ under Tata, which is what people want these days.  I'm assaulted by these monstrosities all the time.  People seem to love them.  I see 10 XJs for every one 7 series I see, if not more.  Ugly is in, as long as it's high tech, apparently. 

The XF came out and got a lot of sales by confusing people into thinking it was a Lexus, but once people got to the dealer, realized it wasn't a new Lexus, they stuck around and bought it because it was actually a pretty good car.  I tried to get my mother to look at one.  I ran it by my brother because he's considering replacing his S4 (he's keeping his S4).  The XF was well received by the media and seems to be doing well in the marketplace considering how many I see. 

The F-Type and XK are cars I don't see much anymore, but normal people have less money for toys these days, so it's understandable.  I haven't seen an SL in months, when I used to see half a dozen a day. 

[MrH]

We had damn near the same discussion with the ATS and I know consistency, even in the absence of changing contexts, maturity or even logic is tantamount to you

Cute that you have to resort to arguing semantics rather than discussing the content of my post though

I've never made the point your contesting in your post.  Not sure what you expect me to argue with you about.